Vol. 249 No. 9
asked the Taoiseach if he will state with particular reference to his statement of 9th May, 1970, in Dáil Éireann in regard to the former Minister for Defence that on no occasion did the Minister ask his advice or make any report to him about any other Minister the date on which the former Minister for Defence first discussed with him the attempted importation of arms into the Republic.
2.
asked the Taoiseach whether Deputy James Gibbons in his capacity as Minister for Defence had at any stage officially or unofficially, directly or indirectly, verbally or otherwise given him any information or indication in respect of the attempted illegal importation of arms; if he kept the Taoiseach informed of such developments on those matters as came to his knowledge; and if he will state specifically whether up to the time of Deputy Cosgrave's intervention, he had received any information from the Minister referred to to alert him to the possibilities of illegal arms importation and/or possible involvement therein of Ministers of State or Army personnel.
3.
asked the Taoiseach whether on or before 5th May last he discussed with the members of the Government the arms importation allegations; and whether he told them that he had investigated this matter, and had discussed it with the two Ministers concerned, and had accepted their explanations and that the matter was over.
4.
asked the Taoiseach whether he initiated any investigation into the alleged implication of certain members of his Cabinet in arms importation prior to the events of May last; whether he will give the result of such investigation; and if he will give the circumstances surrounding this investigation.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 4 together.
I do not propose to give details of confidential conversations or discussions I had with other members of the Government. My statements to the Dáil on the 6th and 9th May and subsequently indicate that I had the circumstances investigated as thoroughly as possible.
Is the Taoiseach aware of the statement by one of the ex-Ministers involved, Mr. Boland, that this whole question had in fact been gone into already by the Taoiseach previous to the official investigation? Has the Taoiseach any comment to make on that?
I am aware of that statement.
Does the Taoiseach propose to let this statement be made without any commentary by him?
I can only say that Mr. Boland's recollection and mine do not coincide.
Does the Taoiseach recognise the fact that the statement by Mr. Boland to which we are referring is one which if true would put the Taoiseach in the position of having told an untruth in this House when he said on the 14th May: "I want to make it clear also that I had decided to act before Deputy Cosgrave's hint"?
I have already answered this. I am not going to be crossexamined by the Deputy. Mr. Boland's recollection and mine do not coincide. That is an answer to the Deputy's question.
The Taoiseach is then suggesting that he did not have a meeting with all the other members of the Government at which——
I am not saying any such thing.
In what respect would the Taoiseach say?
A Cheann Comhairle, I do not know what the propriety is about questions being asked here about a Government meeting. I have given the answer that my recollection and that of Mr. Boland do not coincide on this point.
I am calling Question No. 5.
May I ask the Taoiseach when he says his recollection does not coincide with Mr. Boland's does he mean on the main point — or some peripheral point — that there was such a Government meeting at which he said he was satisfied?
I am not going to answer the Deputy as to what took place at a Government meeting.
Hiding behind the rules of secrecy.
I will not hide behind anything.
Of course the Taoiseach is hiding behind them.
I did not say at that stage that that was the end of the matter.
Does the Taoiseach recall that he already told this House and the country that he would not hide behind any rules of procedure, that he would bring all out into the open? Now he is hiding behind rules of so-called secrecy.
The trial has taken place. I hid behind nothing.
The Government are still on trial.
Question No. 5.
If the Deputy would permit me. I do not think I am obliged to say it but I did not say at a Government meeting that the matter was ended.
Mr. Boland did. Would the Taoiseach say that he did not say it at a meeting of members of the Government, which is what was said? There is another evasion here.
I will allow Deputy Desmond to put a final supplementary question.
Would you allow the Taoiseach to answer my question? I want to make sure there is no evasion here.
Will Deputy FitzGerald resume his seat, please?
On what grounds are you ruling my supplementary out of order?
I am not ruling it out of order.
Why did you not allow my supplementary?
Because Deputy Desmond is putting a supplementary.
I want to say to the Deputy, in view of his persistence, that at no kind of meeting of members of the Government did I say such a thing.
So now Mr. Boland is lying.
Would Deputy FitzGerald allow Deputy Desmond to put his supplementary?
Order.
May I ask the Taoiseach how soon afterwards did the Minister for Defence inform him that he had authorised the transference of Army equipment to Dundalk? How soon afterwards did he tell the Taoiseach?
The Deputy is not going to get a reply to questions involving confidential discussions between members of the Government. If that was to happen in this House government would mean nothing.
Are we to take it that the other members of the Cabinet stand over the Taoiseach's statement?
I am calling Question No. 5.
Do the other members of the Taoiseach's Cabinet stand over his recollection of what took place?
Yes, absolutely.
Question No. 5. Order.
(Cavan): We have a number of versions. We have that on the record.
There of them said "yes".
