Before Question Time I was dealing with the question of the pension scheme for workers. The general provision of a non-contributory pension scheme for certain State employees was agreed some time ago in negotiations with congress. A detailed scheme has been proposed by the Department of Finance and it will be sent to congress shortly. It may have been sent already. I am not sure. I just have a note of it for a short while.
Committee on Finance. - Vote 8: Public Works and Buildings. (Resumed).
Debate resumed on the following motion:
That the Estimate be referred back for consideration.
— (Deputy Kenny).
That is slightly different from what the Parliamentary Secretary said coming up to half-past two. I do not blame him.
The next item on my list was something that was going to take more than a half a minute and I thought I might be able to deal with this in that time. I understand congress is getting in touch with the various individual trade unions concerned to indicate their acceptance or nonacceptance.
They have already done that and they have notified the Labour Court. Now there has been no communication from the Department to the congress. That is what we are complaining about.
I understand the Deputy had words with the Minister for Finance when I was at lunch.
Yes, that is true.
I hope he brought my information a little more up-to-date.
He contradicted it completely, but I am not blaming the Parliamentary Secretary for that.
I can only speak about the officials in my office. That is the information that is available to us.
He said there were other strange beings who were holding it up. I do not know who they were. He was not prepared to give details.
We are quite anxious to see this scheme approved and finalised.
I am only interested in some old people who have retired and who would like a few shillings before Christmas.
I hope they get it. Deputy Tully also referred to the 25s increase since 1st October, 1969, not having been paid yet. So far as I can establish in my office, it has been paid. If the Deputy is aware of any cases in which it has not been paid I would ask him to let me know of such cases.
I have already notified the office of the particulars of the cases in which it was not paid. They said they were terribly sorry but they had a lot of work to do; they just did not get around to it and they were taking the cases in turn.
Special increases for gangers and drivers——
That is the one.
——were the subject of lengthy negotiations with the unions, and arrangements for paying the increase are now in train. In other words, gangers and drivers were a separate case.
That is the increase since October last year.
As the Deputy is aware, there were lengthy negotiations and the arrangements for paying this are now in hand.
Will it be paid before Christmas?
I hope actually sooner than that. There was some considerable discussion regarding the River Finn which is No. 26 out of a total of 28 on the approved list of major catchments. In fact, the latest survey to be started is the Nore, which flows through County Kilkenny, and I do not suppose that my predecessor's constituency has any coincidental relationship to that. One thing I should like to make quite clear in view of the location of the River Finn is that it will be very many years before that river is reached. Neither this Government nor any previous Government, including two Opposition Governments, have ever interferred and they are never likely to interfere, with the priority list. Nevertheless, a special survey was carried out on the River Finn in 1954, but the result of that special survey did not justify any change in the priority list. This catchment of about 200 square miles is in a very mountainous area. The hills are very steep and there is a very fast run-off in flood conditions along the hills of the Finn Valley. I have had similar experience of this in my previous constituency prior to the rearrangement. No planting had taken place in the Glenasmole Valley and as a result of the fast flow-off of water, a number of houses along the banks of the River Dodder were flooded.
It has been claimed that the forestry activities in the hills around the Finn Valley have been responsible for some silting. I accept that forestry activity in its original stage does increase silting, but there is no doubt — and the River Finn and the flooding in Ballybofey proved this — that forestry in the long run will reduce flooding.
In 1965 when flooding took place in Ballybofey the flooding was far more severe than the flooding we had this summer, although the rainfall this summer that caused the flooding was at least 50 per cent greater than the rainfall that occurred in 1965. To my mind this proves the worth of re-afforestation of the hills, especially the steep hills sloping down into narrow valleys. This work, of course, is only incidental to arterial drainage, but there is no doubt whatsoever that the activities of forestry will reduce the necessity for arterial drainage to a certain degree, reduce the level of flooding, making the agricultural land more productive for whatever crops happen to be on it.
In the case of the Ballybofey flooding this has been proved beyond doubt. The drainage of the River Finn is not going to be taken out of priority. If our local engineer can assist the county engineer in any way I shall be only too happy to ask him to do so. Our Mr. Fahey has been in consultation with the temporary county engineer, Mr. O'Malley, already as has Commissioner Cullinane.
I have had a bird's eye view of the flooding problem in the Ballybofey area from a helicopter. I suggest the GAA make a contribution to at least restoring the bank at the rear of their grounds which they took away to help build spectator accommodation. A little foresight on the part of this organisation when they were doing this might have reduced the problem considerably. The county council and the county development team removed the island nearby and if the GAA, the county council and the county development team get together I am quite sure, at very little cost, the danger of flooding in the town of Ballybofey could be almost completely eliminated. I am saying this backed up with the statistical figures as to the amount of rainfall this August and the rainfall in 1965.
The Parliamentary Secretary is not saying that the local GAA club are responsible for the flooding? Surely the removal of obstacles is a matter for the council?
I cannot draw a map here but as the river approaches the town it goes around a bend. At that bend there was a bank but it was taken away by the local GAA club — it was their property — and put into a different place. In the meanwhile the silting to which I referred, which was probably contributed to by the activities of the Forestry Division, has meant an island has been created in the middle of this bend. The result is that with the island and the removal of the bank the river, in flood conditions, does not follow its true course but goes through the town.
The removal of the bank would have obviated the flooding.
If the island in the river is taken away and the bank reerected the likelihood of flooding there in future would, in my view, be very small.
If the island was taken away it would, without building the bank.
Does the Deputy know the area very well?
Very well, but I was not over it in a helicopter.
I suggest to the Deputy that it is much clearer from a helicopter. I met a deputation in Ballybofey and it was suggested to me that I might put an Office of Public Works' machine at the disposal of the local people so that they could do the essential work themselves. I agreed to investigate this. In fact, I went so far as to say that I did not see why there should be any difficulty about that because there were machines owned by the Office of Public Works which were not engaged in useful employment at that time. When checking the files, I found this suggestion was first made in June, 1966. I also found out a policy was laid down by my predecessors, which I must now endorse, by-election or no by-election, that when there are local contractors capable of doing this work the Office of Public Works have no intention of entering into competition with them. If we hire out a machine we will only hire it out at an economic rent. If I am requested I shall hire out a machine to the local authority.
Deputy Bruton made reference in his speech to money that was allegedly being spent on the hiring of machinery but that is, in fact, moneys we receive for the hiring out of machinery to local authorities when local contractors are not in a position to do so. Machinery hired out is hired at the standard rate of local contractors in the area.
It has also been alleged that embankment works carried out by the Northern Ireland authorities on the Tyrone side of the Finn contributed to the flooding on the Donegal side. I had this investigated and while there might have been some small instances I can say that it did not appreciably affect the extent or duration of any flooding that did occur on the Donegal side. As soon as an opportunity to investigate the Finn embankment presents itself, I shall make sure that investigation takes place but at this stage I am not going to commit myself as to when that will be.
I have the greatest sympathy with people badly affected by flooding but when it comes to the allocation of moneys for relief we must spend it to the best practical advantage. The money and machines available at any given time must be used to the best possible advantage. Let nobody suggest that the Donegal area has been neglected. It has not been neglected by any means in the matter of drainage, for example, the Swilly Embankments, the Cloonburn, the Abbey, the Blanket Nook.
There are many good reasons why the Commissioners of Public Works have abided by the priority list established in 1945. There must be priorities in every field of activity and if the Finn River has to wait its turn it is only because there are equally serious problems elsewhere. If town drainage should benefit in any way by arterial drainage work it is only incidential. The purpose for which we undertake drainage activities is for the drainage of agricultural land. The prevention of flooding in towns is not a responsibility charged to us under the Arterial Drainage Act, 1945.
Deputy Tully asked about arrangements for maintenance. In December each year every county council make an estimate for the cost of maintenance and a demand is made by each county council. The maintenance work is carried out and when the actual cost is known an adjustment is made with the county council so that no maintenance work is carried out without the prior agreement of the county council.
Is the Parliamentary Secretary sure that he is giving the facts there?
Did the Deputy not receive a letter from me this morning——
No.
——referring to the Glyde, the Dee and the Boyne?
I am thinking of Broad-meadow where the money has been collected and no maintenance work has been done.
I have not got the complete breakdown.
I do not want that.
If the Deputy wants that I am prepared to make it available to him. We have to account to the county councils. If we overspend on any particular drainage scheme we may be able to transfer £1,000 from one scheme to another in the same county.
What happens if the board underspends?
If we underspend we charge less the next year. In relation to the Glyde and the Dee we overspent last year to the extent of about £3,000 and the charge on the rates in the local authority area this year makes up that £3,000 we overspent.
It is a demand; it must be paid anyway.
How long is it since the Glyde and the Dee schemes were started?
The Glyde and the Dee are on maintenance. We are discussing finished schemes now. There is no point in starting any arterial drainage scheme, as I am sure the Deputy knows, because he held this office once upon a time, unless it is maintained afterwards. Deputy Tully and Deputy Bruton asked about the cost of maintenance on the Boyne scheme. The Boyne scheme will not come under maintenance for another 11 or 12 years and without gazing into a crystal ball the maintenance, we reckon, will be £80,000 a year. Deputy Tully also asked if there was any guarantee if money collected for maintenance would be spent. I am trying to deal with the Estimate in detail. Yes, all maintenance estimated for is carried out with due regard to efficiency and economy.
Progress reported; Committee to sit again.