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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 19 Nov 1970

Vol. 249 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Adjournment Debate: Dublin Differential Rents.

In my question on 11th November to the Minister for Local Government I asked if he was aware of the growing dissatisfaction — and I said "growing"— among Dublin Corporation tenants at Dublin Corporation's present policy on differential rents in general, differential rents applying in all inter-transfer cases and differential rents applying to occupants of houses for newly weds on compulsory transfer and if he was aware that a similar policy is being adopted by other local authorities and, if so, if he would request a revision of this policy.

In reply the Minister said that, apart from complaints by some tenants organisations to which he had replied recently, he was not aware of dissatisfaction among corporation tenants who in general appreciated that their accommodation was let to them at a fraction of its value — I think that is important — a fraction of the value. He said that their rent is abated if income falls as a result of sickness, unemployment, retirement or for any other reason, and that substantial subsidies equivalent on average to almost £2 per week per house are paid from rates and general taxation to keep their rents low.

He also said that in the Dublin Corporation area where inter-transfers were necessary to relieve overcrowding or were recommended by the chief medical officer on health grounds, tenants were assessed for rent on the same basis as before the transfer. He had no objection to the adoption of this practice in other areas.

We all know the purpose for which differential rents were introduced. As a rents system it was admirable. It served people who were poor. I still maintain that the differential rents system if properly applied as originally intended would be of great benefit to those in need. The original intention was very good but the system has changed out of all recognition. The method now applied means that a tenant has no privacy. He is subjected to repeated form-filling and often finds that he receives a demand note unexpectedly from Dublin Corporation and eviction may follow if he is not very careful. He gets demands when he may be at work to call in to disclose information to the corporation. In many cases officials ask neighbours in adjoining houses for details about tenants. This is completely different from what was originally intended. The present system is completely wrong. The total income of the tenant is taken into consideration, not his net income. The gross income of the family is taken into account. This is not fair; the net income is the important thing.

When a tenant may be remiss in complying with the regulations he is assessed at the maximum rate immediately and it is up to him to prove his innocence, so to speak. This is the corporation's policy. Where a tenant on a fixed rent dies and a son or daughter succeeds to the tenancy the differential rent applies immediately. It often happens in corporation houses that the son or daughter living with the tenant has cared for the tenant for many years and will in fact have been the tenant in that he or she paid the rent, in some cases, for 20 years or more. Yet, they are told they must go on a completely new rent scale. It is very unfair and unjust when this happens. The differential rent system is wrong when it is applied as rigidly as this. It should not apply to cases where the immediate family succeed to the tenancy. The original scale of rent should apply not only to the spouse, as at present, but also to any son or daughter who has been living with the tenant at the time of the death.

I find many people like to inter-transfer with other tenants for many and varied reasons — proximity to schools or work or, perhaps, trouble between neighbours as a result of which one tenant may wish to leave the area. These are sound and just reasons for leaving. Where sub-tenants are on a fixed rent and succeed in getting an inter-transfer they are immediately converted to the differential rent system. This is unjust. The fixed scale applied in both cases when they sought the transfer but because the city medical officer would not give permission on medical grounds, or where there is not real overcrowding, these people must pay the new scale of rents. This is very unjust.

The same applies to normal transfers, creating a further problem. The Minister says he is unaware of any dissatisfaction. I do not know of any tenant who would write to the Minister. Seeing how hesitant he is about answering questions here I cannot see him replying to tenants. Tenants of Dublin Corporation do not write to the Minister. They are concerned with the National Association of Tenants' Organisations or the individual bodies in the housing schemes. It is there they make their complaints. They know these people and they refer all complaints to them or to local Deputies.

I am constantly besieged with complaints about the present system by people who are frightened by Dublin Corporation officials, people compelled to go to an employer constantly asking him to sign a certificate of earnings for the previous six months. This is happening every day of the week: tenants are deprived of their normal rights. Dublin Corporation are the only landlords in the country who can knock on a tenant's door and say: "You earned overtime last week and we are entitled to money out of it." This is exactly what Dublin Corporation are doing. It is most important that we should get back to the original basis of the scheme first introduced by a Minister who was a member of the Labour Party, the late Deputy Tim Murphy. The idea was right. It was good. It was just. Now it is being applied unjustly and I am asking that we should revert to the original idea. Dublin Corporation tenants should not be asked to pay over £6 per week rent for high rise flats.

I know of one particular case. The man is a paraplegic confined to a wheelchair. He has an income of £6 14s and out of that he has to pay Dublin Corporation £2 17s rent. When I first brought up this case everyone said it was impossible. I sent to the Taoiseach the corporation's letter giving me the reasons why they were charging that rent. It is perfectly true that this man is paying £2 17s rent per week out of an income of £6 14s. This is unjust. He and his wife occupy a one-room flat in Inchicore. He did not ask for central heating. This was not taken into account because the system is too rigid. People are paying more in rent than they would have been had they had the good sense originally to purchase their own houses. At the moment they are being deprived of every right. They are dependent on Dublin Corporation for housing and they are crucified under the present system. In view of the widespread dissatisfaction I ask the Minister to have the system examined so that we may get a proper differential renting system. I do not believe it should be abolished but, where people are in need, applying maximum rents is unjust. I ask for an inquiry.

In the 15 minutes left to me——

The Deputy has eight minutes.

——it will be impossible for me to cover the major aspects of this problem. No one is responsible for these increases except the Minister for Local Government and he has shirked his responsibility by passing the buck to the county and city managers. The Minister must either be living in cloud-cuckoo-land or on the moon. NATO is a national organisation. Limerick, Waterford, Drogheda, Cork and other areas are closely associated with NATO on this matter of differential rents. How can the Minister say there is no general dissatisfaction knowing that that organisation is spread all over the 26 Counties?

The Minister has tried to deceive us once more on this issue. He has said that tenants are assessed for rents on the same basis as before the transfer. He told me the opposite. He told me that if a house passes to a son or daughter on the death of a parent the rent should remain static. On the 11th of November he said that the tenants are assessed on the same basis as before. Who or what are we to believe? He issues this order to the city and county managers and then the Minister for Finance comes along and, in his speech introducing the Prices and Incomes Bill, says there would be no freezing of differential rents. When I questioned him about that he told me the differential rents were frozen. I related that information to our city council and, as a result, our city manager has frozen differential rents until he gets a satisfactory answer and is properly briefed and advised by the Minister for Local Government as to the exact position. He does not know where he stands at the moment because of the conflicting views of the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Local Government.

I come now to this increase in the maximum rents. When we prepare housing schemes the manager puts before us, as the Minister is well aware, the rents charged, both minima and maxima. The incoming tenant signs an agreement. For the last four or five years, because of the bankruptcy of the Government, maxima rents have been increased. They were increased last year and the year before. They will be increased again this year. But the agitation has stopped it and, as far as we are concerned in the Limerick City Council, we will support the tenants.

Where, in the name of God, will this stop? Tenants opted for maxima rents. In some cases those rents have now doubled. City managers have taken it upon themselves to send questionnaires to every employer in Limerick city and at Shannon asking for particulars not alone of the basic wage but of every shilling earned in overtime plus any other benefits so that the manager can come along and swipe one-sixth off the employee. What will this lead to? The man will not accept an incentive. He will not work overtime. There will be a go-slow. Production will fall because of the ruthless approach of the Minister for Local Government. There is no remission for corporation tenants as there is for SDA people. We live with these people and they live with us. I ask the Minister now in his own interest, in the interest of the State and in the interest of the security and peace of the State, to reject this imposition and revoke the demand he has made on city and county managers. If he does not do so we will fight him to the last ditch.

The Minister to conclude.

I have one minute by the clock.

The Minister is entitled to ten minutes.

On a point of order, it is 19 minutes past five. I want to say just one sentence.

We will allow the Deputy one sentence.

On a point of order, Sir, the time is now 5.19 p.m. My contribution can be made in virtually one sentence.

We will allow the Deputy his one sentence.

As a representative of Cabra, Finglas and Ballymun I associate myself totally with what the two previous speakers have said and with the stand taken by the National Association of Tenants' Organisations. I regard the statement made by the Minister that so far as he is aware one association alone are dissatisfied with the present situation as a calculated insult to the most representative tenants' organisation in the country.

This is a complex question because the wishes of the Department have not been achieved in that a uniform differential rent system would operate in each local authority area. We have been striving since the introduction of the system to achieve that objective. However, due to differing circumstances in the various local authority areas they like to vary the scheme so that it will be more acceptable to tenants in, say, Limerick, Galway or Dublin. These varying views do not always coincide. It is difficult therefore to discuss differenial rents in a general way because of the many different schemes that are in operation throughout the country.

I am aware that some dissatisfaction has been expressed by one of the tenants' organisations but I do not accept that there is general dissatisfaction among all local authority tenants. There is a certain amount of agitation by pressure groups in regard to differential rents in Dublin and in other parts of the country but they do not strike me as typical of the general body of tenants. All the differential rent schemes have given very generous concessions to the tenants and the further relaxations the pressure groups have been demanding demonstrate that they are mainly representative of the relatively well-to-do tenants. The majority of tenants appreciate that they have their houses at a fraction of their true value. They know their rents will be reduced should their income be decreased on account of sickness, unemployment, retirement or any other unfortunate occurrence which they may be unlucky enough to encounter. In the main tenants appreciate the benefits and the equity that operates in the differential rent system.

We must keep in mind, no matter what smokescreen is raised or what emotional statements are made in the House or by organisations outside, that no tenant is asked to pay more than what the house cost. This is a basic point that must not be forgotten. A tenant with an income large enough to buy without hardship a private house may be asked to pay the full economic rent——

On a point of order, Sir,——

There is no point of order. The Minister is entitled to ten minutes in which to reply.

We are not discussing house purchase.

A person who is able to buy a private house may be asked to pay the full economic rent but the poor tenant can be housed without paying any rent if he can show that his circumstances will not allow him to pay under the 1970 scheme.

Is the Minister prepared to investigate this particular case? The Minister should not make misleading statements in this House.

This year rents are being subsidised to the extent of £10 million. I have told the House already that if this amount of money were available for building houses we would be able to provide an extra 3,000 houses each year. Any extension of the subsidy will obviously reduce the amount of capital available for house-building. I have not much time and I want to get to the core of this matter — the actual operation of the differential rent system. A new scheme was recently introduced in Dublin and it was criticised by one tenants' organisation. I should like to give the House some details about the system. At the outset everybody must realise that the maximum rent that is fixed must relate to the cost of providing a house.

In the scheme that came into operation on 1st November, 1970, for a four-bedroom house the maximum rent would be £7 5s; it costs the corporation this amount to provide that house. The following are the concessions that are being made to tenants and I consider them to be very generous. In the main, tenants will be appreciative of the concessions made in the new lettings. From the basic income of the tenant a sum of £4 is deducted, up to the first £25; if his income is in excess of £25 an amount of £2 is deducted. From subsidiary earnings — another member of the family may be working — an amount of £4 is deducted and income in excess of £10 is not taken into account for the purpose of assessing differential rent. This is a major concession. An amount of one-fifth of overtime earnings is deducted from the income and this is also a considerable concession. For dependent children 10s is deducted up to the age of 16 years; and indeed for children who are over 16 years and who are continuing in school or who may be incapable of getting employment, due to physical handicap or some other reason, there is an allowance of 10s.

In the case where the husband is working abroad — there were some cases in Dublin — an amount of £6 is deducted from the man's principal income and that is also a generous concession. In the case of children's allowances they are completely exempt. Any sums in respect of scholarships and any payments by way of home assistance are exempt in full. In the case of contributory social welfare benefits — which would possibly make up the income of some households — 25 per cent is deducted.

There are also other provisions. The hardship clause provides that the corporation can agree to accept from a tenant for a specified period a lesser sum of rent and rates than the minimum required under the scheme. There is also an allowance of £4 a week for home help which may be required in specific cases; for example, if the mother of the family were sick and had to get some help, a case could be made for the £4 deduction. Rents are calculated in arrears instead of on a current basis. They are adjusted after quarterly or half-yearly review——

This is in the new system.

This is in the system I introduced and which came into effect on 1st November. This will avoid the accumulation of the substantial arrears on the part of tenants who fail to report promptly increases in income——

The Minister recognises the fact that there was gross injustice——

I shall give the House some information regarding a three-bedroom house, which is mainly the type of house being provided by the local authorities. In this instance the maximum rent would be £6 15s per week. A man, his wife and four children — which could be taken as an average size family in Dublin — would have to earn £45 per week to pay the maximum rent. If his income was £35 per week the rent would be £5 3s 4d; if his income was £25 per week the rent would be £3 3s 4d; for a weekly income of £15 the rent would be 30s; for a weekly income of £10 the rent would be 13s 4d and if the man's income was £6 6s his rent would be 1s. There is power under the scheme in cases of hardship to eliminate the rent of 1s.

I do not think the differential rent scheme is creating hardship and, if it is, I have repeatedly requested the organisation that is agitating about this matter to bring to my notice individual cases of genuine hardship. I would certainly be concerned if I thought extreme hardship was being caused to any person because of the operation of this scheme.

The Dáil adjourned at 5.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 24th November, 1970.

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