Vol. 251 No. 2
asked the Minister for Education if, in order to equate opportunity for university education, he will make arrangements for the reduction of the fees for country students so that they may not be at a disadvantage with their counterparts who live in the university centre.
107.
asked the Minister for Education if he is aware that the rising cost of university education, more especially the cost of lodgings or other accommodation in Dublin, Cork, and Galway, bears most heavily upon students who are in attendance at colleges which are long distances from their homes; and if he will take early steps to raise the level of grants made payable to university students who qualify for financial assistance and who have to travel long distances to their place of study or to rent accommodation away from their homes.
108.
asked the Minister for Education if he is aware of the widespread hardship caused to students at the various university colleges by the increases in fees introduced last year; and if he will accordingly make early arrangements to increase the level of grants made payable to university students who qualify for financial assistance.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 106, 107 and 108 together.
The question of fixing fees for university education is one for the university authorities. I have no function in relation to it except to the extent that moneys involved form part of the general finances of the universities and have a bearing on the amount payable by way of State grants.
As I have already explained to the House appropriate arrangements have been made with the university authorities whereby payments will be made to them so that the fees charged to all grant holders in 1969-70 will be kept at the level which obtained in that year.
I do feel, however, that as far as the students who are holders of grants from my Department are concerned the general position is adequately catered for by the higher rates of grant payable in the case of those who reside outside the university centres.
Is the Minister really being honest with the House when he says that the matter of raising the fees is solely at the discretion of the university authorities?
In the light of recent history.
In the light of recent history, as Deputy Dr. FitzGerald correctly says. And, secondly, is he not aware that the burden of expenses involved in travelling and lodging accommodation is growing increasingly on university students? We are no longer talking about a privileged section of the people but about people who, if the Minister's plans are carried out, would be increasingly representative of the population and does he propose to consider making any increase in the amount of grants payable, at least in the coming university year?
Might I say that in the light of either recent or remote history the question of fixing fees for university education is one for the university authorities? I have already explained that. I said that I had no function in relation to it except to the extent that the moneys involved form part of the general finances of the universities and have a bearing on the amount payable by way of State grants. I am sure the Deputy is aware that there are considerable differences between the grants payable to those who live near university cities and those who live outside university cities. I might also say that we have, as the Deputy is also aware, made arrangements in regard to the grant holders, so that I think we have dealt reasonably with this matter.
I share Deputy Thornley's surprise at the Minister's suggestion that he has no function in relation to fees when he has both frozen and unfrozen them in the last three years and subsequently provided an additional grant to keep them down. I do not think there is any other function he could possibly have in relation to fees than the ones he has exercised. However, in relation to the Minister's reply, would he not agree that when these grants were introduced it was perhaps a mistake to leave such a small margin of difference between the rural and urban grants? Further, would the Minister not agree that had he followed the recommendations in Investment in Education which involved somewhat higher grants for students in rural areas, and somewhat lower grants for students in urban areas, it would have been more equitable? Would the Minister not now consider increasing the grants for people in rural areas which have always been too low in relation to those given to students in urban areas?
An interesting point is that it is not long ago since I, speaking in common or garden parlance, said in the House that I fixed the fees. Deputy FitzGerald immediately jumped to his feet and said that I did not and had no authority to do it——
None whatever.
Now he is suggesting that I am doing it and have authority to do it.
The Minister must not have noticed the note of irony in my voice. The Minister had no right to do it.
The Deputy cannot have it both ways. In relation to the grants we have acted fairly in this matter.
Has the Minister any idea what it costs to keep a student in Dublin, whose home is in rural Ireland? Has the Minister even considered this?
Of course I have. I have already stated that we have made these grants available but this is not the only State subvention that goes towards subsidising students in the universities. Even for those who have not grants, there is a considerable charge on the State.
Is the Minister aware that it costs approximately £500 per year to maintain a student in Dublin? Has he any idea about these facts? The way the Minister is talking one would imagine that the equality of opportunity we hear so much about is functioning perfectly and that everyone from the country can afford to send students to the cities with no trouble whatever.
Nothing will ever function perfectly in this world but we have made a considerable contribution towards helping it to work as perfectly as possible.
Is the Minister aware that even the minimal travel concession available to students is withdrawn by CIE when the student reaches the age of 21 years? Most students continue their education until at least the age of 22 years. I have been told in a letter by CIE that they are prepared to extend this concession. Does the Minister know that? The Minister said he has considered this. Could he give the House the benefit of the fruit of his considerations?
The Minister feels that the relativity between the city and country grants is reasonable.
The difference is of the order of £3 per week and even allowing for the fact that students are not there for the whole of the year— although they are at university for most of the year, especially those studying for examinations—the difference between the two is not adequate to cover the extra cost.
The Deputy must be aware that we have not got a bottomless pit in relation to this and that only a certain amount of money is available. We must try to ensure that this money is used in the most equitable manner possible and this is what we are doing.
I am asking the Minister to make it available in an equitable manner. At the moment the children whose parents live in urban areas are relatively better off than the children in rural areas who have an additional cost that exceeds substantially the difference between the two grants. I am not a rural Deputy but the inequity is so great that I must make that point.
I am calling Question No. 109.
