I wanted to deal with the statement contained in the Minister's speech in relation to the "Seven Days" Tribunal of Inquiry. The Minister particularly referred to three aspects. The Minister said that it was clear from the report that the tribunal carried out their onerous task with painstaking care, thoroughness and objectivity. I do not dispute the fact that the work was done in an extremely careful manner. I would object to what I might call the cross-examining ruthlessness, rather than thoroughness, with which some members of the tribunal reacted. Nevertheless, the report was generally objective. The Minister was somewhat selective in his analysis of the report. The Minister said that the tribunal stated that they were satisfied that in deciding to make the programme RTE were activated by a desire to draw public attention to what they genuinely considered to be a serious social problem and that this decision was justified. I agree with the Minister in that. The Minister did not go on to say that the tribunal also found that the programme was authentic in that illegal moneylending does exist and is a problem of serious proportions in certain areas. The tribunal also found—and this should be placed on record because this is the first occasion we have had of discussing this report——
Committee on Finance. - Vote 42: Posts and Telegraphs (Resumed).
I would like to refer to the top of page 40 of my brief with reference to what the Deputy said I did or did not say.
I do not wish to cavil with the Minister but I should point out that the tribunal did definitely point out that where moneylending did exist the rates of interest were excessive and that it was a problem of serious proportions, that children's allowance books are commonly taken as security for loans and that repayments are secured by taking advantage of the fear of borrowers, though not to any extent the fear of physical violence. The tribunal also found that it was proper to note that before the programme the gardaí had not considered that illegal moneylending was a police problem. As a result of investigations by the gardaí which were occasioned by the programme it was disclosed to them that moneylending was so prevalent in the city centre area to which the programme referred as to constitute a minor problem and that a number of unlicensed moneylenders existed in this and other areas. To that extent the tribunal found that the results of the programme had been beneficial. This was found also because the public were made aware of the problem. This was an objective finding on the part of the tribunal. It concurred with a good deal of what was contained in the programme. I would accept also the view of the tribunal that it was unfortunate that the problem was exaggerated in the programme particularly with reference to the violence and that this gave rise to the controversy which led to the tribunal. I think this is a fair assessment on the part of the distinguished persons on the tribunal itself.
I have held the view that there was never any need for a tribunal. There is no need to go into that. It was using a judicial sledge-hammer for a public analysis of one single programme of RTE. Apparently, that is outside the scope of this Estimate.
The tribunal came to some very interesting conclusions. There are criticisms in the report. I have not the slightest doubt but that the criticisms have been taken into account by both RTE and by the "Seven Days" production team, either those who were involved or who will be involved in future programmes. It is a matter of profound regret that the resolution of Dáil Éireann, which cannot be the subject of debate here and which rightly has passed into history with no great credit to Dáil Éireann——
The Deputy is again criticising the decisions of the House.
I would accept the ruling, but the net result of the report was that it created a new atmosphere of uncertainty, distrust and suspicion and to quite an extent it demoralised TV staff who have a very difficult job to do with a small staff and small resources for preparation. They transmit programmes which, of their very nature, tend to be controversial and of extreme public interest. With the greatest respect to this House, we should reflect that at the time we set up this tribunal and when the tribunal were engaged on this work, Dáil Éireann got slightly hysterical about the question of moneylending. The former Minister for Justice became extremely emotional about the whole problem and showed his attitude towards RTE staff generally. At that time there were other matters of national importance which apparently did not warrant the attention of Dáil Éireann. This is of significance and of very considerable concern. I am not happy with a statement made by the Minister. Having said that he communicated with the authority on receipt of the report the Minister said:
I am more concerned with the future than the past and in this regard I can say, without going into any detail as to what has passed between the authority and myself, that I am confident the authority has taken or will take any action required arising out of the tribunal's findings.
I would prefer if the Minister did not say that. I never like to read implications into something. Either the Minister should disclose what he said to the authority or he should not come before the House in a responsible political position and make this statement. I do not like the kind of pressure which one can read into the Minister's statement. The Minister might clarify that point in replying to the debate. I do not propose to deal further with the report of the tribunal. In a country such as ours, with the relatively small population of 2.8 million, where the top 20 people, one might say, in all major areas of communication are virtually household names and are well-known to many Deputies, it does not require a judicial inquiry or a report of this nature to convey opinions, complaints or attitudes relating to programmes. Under the Broadcasting Act the Minister has the right, if he so wishes, formally to write to the authority on behalf of the Government, or on his own behalf, conveying any complaints which may have been the subject of opprobrium at Cabinet level. That is one means of handling complaints about programmes. I hope in future we will not see that kind of investigation being established as a result of matters arising in this House.
I should like to be associated with the Minister's expression of thanks to Dr. Andrews. During his chairmanship of the RTE Authority he made a distinguished contribution to life. His work from 1966 to 1970 was considerable and nobody can question the sense of independence or of cultural integrity which he imparted to the service. I hope that before the new Bill comes before the Dáil, possibly not this year but certainly in 1972, there will have been full and complete discussion about it within the Cabinet. As it is, we observe the different attitudes towards television and radio among members of the Government, attitudes which have no relationship to the age of the person concerned. For example, the Minister for Justice, Deputy O'Malley, who is a very young member of the Cabinet, has terribly authoritarian concepts about communications and the role of television. He makes me shiver at times but he will probably grow up in due course. The former Minister for Justice, Deputy Moran, and the present Minister are of two different generations. The fact that they can have such attitudes would be highly dangerous in terms of television. I do not think the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs has such an attitude and I think he will tread with extreme care and that the authority appointed by him will ensure that RTE programmes will be a true reflection of Irish life. I hope that by the time he finishes his term of office such programmes as "Hawaii Five-O,""Oh, Brother" or other programmes with high TAM ratings, will have disappeared and be replaced by programmes more elevating culturally and which will tend towards stability in family life. I hope for programmes dealing with public affairs which will be better than the "Late, Late Show" and that the Irish language will get the priority it deserves through Radio na Gaeltachta. I also hope that freedom of action will be given to the public affairs people, particularly in such magnificent programmes as "Radharc" and "Seven Days," and that the work done in this regard will be further developed so that at least we can say to Europe, whether we go into it or not, that we have a uniquely distinctive television service which does not live on a diet of superficial trivia, on commercial advertising—10 per cent of the programmes—and a diet of imported canned rubbish which I find infuriating and which certainly have distorted my children's views of life, and which in the years ahead will create a society which will be far less Irish, far less Christian. Certainly we need something better than the kind of Anglo-American tripe which we have to tolerate at present because RTE have not got the money to produce decent programmes themselves which would be of an elevating nature. We see Irish viewers being fed night after night with advertisements which create expectations which perhaps can never be fulfilled and which are only a mirage in terms of television. I know that any member of the RTE staff whom I contacted was as unhappy about the position as many Deputies are, but I have no doubt that in the years ahead we can prove to Europe and to the world we have a culture somewhat different from the synthetic Anglo-American or Anglo-Irish versions of culture which emanate from our station at present.
Having listened to Deputy Desmond, I would say that, if they want a stand-in for Brother Dominic, they can get Brother Barry, as he certainly would fit into the programme, judging from his remarks about "Seven Days" and Telefís Éireann. First of all, I should like to congratulate the Minister on the comprehensive material with which he has provided Deputies and which will assist Deputies in this debate. He has, in a very practical way, outlined the various aspects of Post Office administration. It is gratifying to see the section dealing with staff relations and the manner in which the problem is being tackled. These are aspects which give us an insight into the Post Office and the Department and we are grateful for this material. The aspect of the Minister's speech which interests me most is that relating to staff relations and the manner in which problems are being dealt with in this regard.
I should like to discuss one problem which affects us in the city and that is the vandalism that is taking place in regard to telephone kiosks. Telephone kiosks sometimes are the lifeline between an injured or a sick person and the doctor and the ambulance, or the lifeline between a householder and the fire service. This wave of vandalism is appalling. Kiosks are all-important and I hope the Minister will not be influenced by the fact that we have a number of vandals in the city who have as their target the destruction of these kiosks and that he will have kiosks which are damaged replaced as quickly as possible so as to ensure contact between outlying areas and fire services, ambulances, doctors and other services which are so much in demand. These vandals have been the subject of comment in the Press and on television and we cannot overstress our anxiety in this regard.
The Department must do something to ensure that teachers, parents and children are fully aware of the consequences of the destruction of public telephones. The suggestion has been made that they might make a short film which could be shown on television outlining the tragedies that can occur in this regard. The film might depict a person who has to make an urgent call for an ambulance or fire brigade and the possible consequences if the telephone cannot be used. It could be stressed that this might happen to any family and, perhaps, the vandals would have second thoughts if they considered that their own families might be involved. The dire consequences must be brought home to all and, in this regard, Deputies must do what they can to help. In addition, the press and the news media can play a very important role by way of publicity.
The gardaí cannot be expected to watch telephone kiosks all the night. This type of vandalism is of fairly recent origin and I hope it will not continue for long. The vandals should be made to answer for this type of outrage. It often occurs that when they come before the courts they are told to be good in the future and are sent home. This is not sufficient. The judges and district justices must play a responsible role in ensuring that those who deprive citizens of the essential telephone service are punished. Again, I would appeal to the Minister to give earnest consideration to the suggestion that the Department might produce a film on the lines I have already indicated. It might be circulated to schools and the various boys' clubs throughout the country.
The provision of a telephone service in the newly built-up areas is vital. In this connection I would mention the Tallaght area where there is a great shortage of telephone kiosks. There will soon be 700 houses in this area and there is not one telephone kiosk there. These people who will live in this area will make a considerable demand on telephone services and it is not good enough that they should have to travel long distances in order to make telephone calls. Where there is large-scale local development, the provision of telephone kiosks should be a charge on the local authority rather than a charge on the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. A local authority which builds a housing scheme should make provision for this service at their own expense in order to ensure that those whom they are housing will have access to the telephone. On new housing schemes very frequently it is necessary for people to travel three or four miles in the middle of the night when they have to make an urgent telephone call and this is not satisfactory.
There should be some tie-up between the local authority concerned and the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. During the building of a housing scheme lines are laid on for the contractors and sub-contractors and, therefore, the lines are available. In the area of Tallaght there is a contractor on the site and he probably has two or three telephone lines. There is no reason why a telephone kiosk could not be erected at this time. I would ask the Minister to consider this point—that the cost of this essential service should be met by the local authority as part and parcel of the development scheme. We know how long it is necessary to wait for proper facilities to be laid on by the Departmen of Posts and Telegraphs and others. The provision of a telephone service may not be profitable in the initial stages but it is essential that the community should have this service. It is not fair that the people who are first in the area should be deprived of the service merely because it is not considered by the authorities to be a profitable venture. I would ask the Minister to have consultations with the Minister for Local Government, or whoever may be responsible for the development of housing estates, in connection with this matter.
Proper telephone services are essential for industrial development and other speakers have stressed this point. I realise that problems existed in the past due to bad planning and lack of information from private developers' to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. In many cases the profit factor was the only important factor to the speculator in some of the industrial estates. Telephone communications in the factories left much to be desired.
In the large industrial estates at Ballyfermot, Tallaght, Walkinstown and Bluebell, which are in my area or adjacent to it, considerable difficulties have existed over a number of years and, as a result of bad telephone service many people were deprived of employment. Many industrialists there have told me that after their day's work they have to use their own telephones at home in order to do their business. I am aware of the progress that has been made by the Department in solving this problem in these industrial etates. However, these are not the last industrial estates to be developed in Dublin and I hope that the Department will be aware of development plans for the city and county and will not wait until industries are established and until the roads have to be ripped up in order to provide these essential services.
When the south side of the city and county was being developed the local authorities underestimated their requirements and telephone exchanges were provided to cater for only the immediate needs of the area. There was a lack of contact between the local authorities and various Departments of State, so that not only were telephone facilities inadequate but so also was the availability of land, water and sewerage facilities and so on. However, the problem at the moment is the telephone service and I would ask the Minister to make further improvements for the benefit of the industrial estates I have mentioned. I live in Tallaght and my telephone is on the Walkinstown exchange. Some of my constituents have been unable to get in touch with me because of the unsatisfactory telephone service.
I would ask for the co-operation of the Department in enabling me to serve my constituents. If additional lines were provided it would prevent the jamming that takes place at present. I have had to avail of alternative methods when the Department did not come up to expectations. Rather than make a telephone call which is so time-consuming, I have got into the car and driven to the other end of the constituency to attend to some business.
I have seen a number of telephone kiosks of a new design and with modifications of the old ones. It is about time we got away from the familiar design, the small panes of glass. Design is something which has been overlooked. No imagination whatsoever has been used: just a concrete block house with a telephone stuck inside, no visibility. There would be less destruction of telephone kiosks if the people inside could be seen more easily by those outside.
The provision of a new sorting office at Ballyfermot, which is referred to in the Minister's brief, is long overdue and will be welcomed by the people of the area. This matter was also dealt with very comprehensively by the Minister in answer to a question. There is a very responsible section of workers living in Ballyfermot. There is no major crime in the area and the amount of vandalism is very small by comparison with other areas. I am confident that whatever public buildings and services are provided will be respected by the people in this large working-class area. There is not even a Garda station there. An area of this type, with such responsible people there, should be given consideration when demands are made for additional services.
I do not know where the blunder came from in the composition of the telephone directory, but there was a bit of a problem. Some of them have been withdrawn, but that blunder gave rise to considerable difficulties when people were looking for numbers. Publicity was given to the fact that there was an error, but it might have been better to notify everybody who had a telephone directory that there was a defect in it. Something about it did appear in the papers, but a number of people, including industrialists, indicated to me that they had this problem. I hope that matter is now finally cleared up. I know the Minister did not print the directory himself, but it shows that in future these things should be properly checked.
Some of the stamps produced from time to time by the Department were very creditable and we can feel proud of them, but some of them were diabolical. There is a tendency to produce a better type of stamp. We have the basis for a very good set of stamps showing our beauty spots and places of historic interest. This could assist the tourist industry. I hope the Minister will give consideration to this at some stage. The 50th anniversary stamps are simple and deserve great credit. I hope there will be some imagination used on the design of our stamps in future. I hope that we can be proud of the stamps that will commemorate the leading figures who died on both sides during the Civil War period. This will be appreciated by everybody.
I should like to deal now with television advertisements and television generally in relation to the problems of the community. We heard much about television from other speakers, and we heard something about colour television, but it is not impossible for the ordinary individual to see pink when some groups are portrayed on the screen in hysterical gatherings. It appears to me that these groups are considered newsworthy.
What programme was that?
What about the bull show?
There are groups who, when they are protesting, threaten their employers, or the unions or——
The Taoiseach.
——other groups. These are ginger groups or red groups and they seem to have access to Montrose because when they wish to have a television camera available to them it is available. This has disturbed me on many occasions. They can threaten to have a television camera there and they can have it there. This is something that must be examined. It appears that they have an inside contact, or that there is a group of people on top in RTE who assist these people when they are demonstrating.
The responsible element in our society are seldom filmed when they are dealing with matters in a responsible way. When people come together to develop their own homes, as happened in Sallynoggin and Dún Laoghaire recently, they get very little television coverage, but when people get up on a roof to fire slates at the police, the television cameras are there to cover that. There should be a more responsible attitude on the part of the newspapers and RTE towards the coloured groups in the city, the pink and red groups we have in abundance. We have had them for some time. I am not tying them in with any political party because no responsible politician wants to have anything to do with them. They are in the city and they are causing trouble for the community as a whole.
How did they get cumann delegate cards for the Ard-Fheis?
A few of them will be knocking about Galway next weekend and I would hope that that aspect of the Labour Party's Ard-Fheis, or their convention, or whatever they call it, will not be covered. From what I hear, instead of issuing cards they have issued knives to the delegates.
Order.
I hope that the press and RTE will adopt a more responsible attitude in future. When these people place a picket on Leinster House or anywhere else, whether or not it is a legitimate picket, they are always sure of getting coverage. If you are acting in a responsible manner the press and RTE have no regard for you.
Does the Deputy know the old principle on which the press operates: "man bites dog".
Man bites dog?
If a man bites a dog it is news, but if a dog bites a man it is not news.
There are many mad dogs knocking around. It is my opinion that those sections should be ignored and that irresponsible demonstrations should be ignored. For a change they should confine themselves to covering people who have a responsible attitude. We should try to teach those people that that is the right way to act and that if they act in a responsible manner they will get coverage. If coverage is given to responsible action, the rowdy element which has plagued our society for so long will become fed up because they will not have access to the cameras. We do not need to have coloured television to know what colour they are.
I should like to say that on my trips to Montrose, and from my own contacts with the personnel in RTE, I have always found them to be very courteous and highly efficient. I do not always agree with their point of view, but in a democracy it is only right that we should have different points of view. I have felt in recent times that these people, highly technical people, do a wonderful job. It is a credit to Telefís Éireann that they have developed from a standing start to have at this stage such highly competent people. Many of the home produced programmes, which have been mentioned from time to time and which have also been mentioned here today, are very creditable indeed.
I like the "Seven Days" programme. I like their approach to many matters. When the question of dealing with social problems and social evils is dealt with in an efficient manner good programmes can be produced. On the other hand, we know that television can project very distorted views and at times Telefís Éireann have produced distorted views. They have in relation to housing problems in this city produced a one-sided view. When this happens television comes into disrepute. They have, from time to time, selected personnel, possibly to produce a distorted view regarding alleged Government incompetence in relation to housing and other matters, without getting somebody from the other side to put their point of view. Lobsided programmes in relation to social evils bring RTE into disrepute. Nevertheless, I think the Seven Days programme, and many of the other programmes mentioned, are very good. Deputy Desmond spoke about the "Oh, Brother" programme which, although not a home produced one, amuses many people. I like it but I prefer the home produced stuff.
"Wanderly Wagon" is not bad.
Now that we have in this House people who took part in programmes for quite a considerable period, some of them have changed their minds in relation to politicians— the duties and the activities of politicians. People who have condemned us before in a very ferocious manner, and who coloured the public mind, have now completely changed in their attitude in regard to some of the information they were imparting to people in the not too distant past. It is a good exercise to have some of those people here in the House because it gives them an inside view into the problems of politicians in their own party and into the duties which are performed here in meeting constituents and dealing with their problems. At one stage we were told by one of those gentlemen that this was all nonsense, that politicians were only there to deal with legislation, that the constituent's problems did not mean a thing. Those men now open up "clinics" by the dozen. I understand others close them down by the dozen.
They are like drugs.
They will see the necessity for this and the desirability of keeping in contact with the people they represent, knowing their needs and servicing them in the best way possible. I am quite sure that the change from television to active politics will bring new light to one particular gentleman in regard to the problems of politicians. It will show him the mess he made of some of his programmes on television. He must know that the people who listened, and who respected his views then, must be shaken by his acrobatics in the turnover which has taken place.
The news and the report programmes on television and radio are very good and I can find nothing wrong with them. I do not object to the long hair of the girls. I think it is very nice. This seemed to be an objection of the Fine Gael Deputy. She did not like the way they do their hair or the way they dress. It does not make any difference if they are able to impart information in a pleasant way. They are very pleasant people. The continuity announcers and the other announcers do a very fine job, as indeed do most of the staff of Telefís Éireann. They are highly efficient except for the few distortions which occurred in the past which I hope will not happen again.
Did the Deputy warn them?
Yes, I did. I want to refer to the advertisements of the Department on television. The advertisement on television in relation to TV spongers——
The Deputy must not like his Cork accent.
He has not got a Cork accent, that is the trouble. Was this advertisement designed to indicate that it was only people in the city who did not pay their licences?
It must be.
I got my licence the other day because I knew I would be getting in on this Estimate.
Up to this the Deputy was a sponger.
It is one of the advertisements that is not appreciated by anybody. It is not funny. When I first saw his face I thought it was funny but not the advertisement. There should be more imagination in relation to the type of advertisement which the Department of Posts and Telegraphs put on. After all they have access to the station.
That advertisement was the responsibility of the RTE Authority.
Do not blame the Minister.
It does not reflect any credit on anybody. It should be terminated if that has not already been done. They might be able to do this on radio, but not on television. The staff of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs did a wonderful job during the bank strike. I do not know if they got any increases in wages as a result of the extra work they had to do. Great credit was due to them for the manner in which they handled this situation. The workers in the post offices certainly responded during this period in a very efficient way. The Minister has dealt with this in some detail and for that reason I will not go into it.
The Minister also deals with radio licences and television licences. The radio licences are a bit of a farce be-because nearly everybody you see in the streets and in the parks carry transistor radios. They have pocket transistors and have a plug in their ears or they play them very loudly. Until such time as the Minister finds a way of ensuring that the bulk of the people who have radios of any sort pay their licences those licences are a farce.
Often people with only one radio set have to have a licence for it, while people who have a small transistor in their pocket, another in their car, and maybe half a dozen sets at home, often have no licence at all. The question of radio licences is something which the Minister should have a look at to try and get in all those people. If the majority of people can have a transistor radio without a licence there is no reason why other people should be victimised. You can get a free radio or television licence when you become an old age pensioner but some of the people I saw with transistor radios during the summer were not old age pensioners. The Minister should have a look at this matter and abolish the license completely if it cannot be applied effectively and fairly and adopt some other system to recoup the money. One section should not be victimised as against the other.
I would ask the Minister to ensure that, where possible, disabled persons will be given employment in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. There are job opportunities for such people in this service and while some of them have been fitted in, they could be employed on a much wider scale. The situation should be assessed to find out where disabled people could be fitted in. While a limited effort has been made, enough has not been done for this deserving section of the community. It is a section that is often overlooked not alone by Government Departments, local authorities and semi-State bodies but by the community as a whole. Many employers will not consider a person unless he is fully fit. The Department of Posts and Telegraphs could set a good example in this field.
The Minister in dealing with staff relations said:
Other aspects of human relations as they affect the staff in the course of their work are also being studied.
I am glad to note this but later on I see a reference to industrial psychology. Speaking of industrial psychologists, I would warn the Minister to be very careful about these fellows. Recently an industrial psychologist sent for a man to interview him for a job. The first question he asked him was: "Did you ever cross the road when you saw somebody coming to whom you did not want to speak?" The man said: "Yes." He failed him. He said he was not a man of character. How many of us have not crossed the road when we saw somebody coming to whom we did not want to speak? I know that is the answer I would give.
TDs would not do too well on that one.
This man was failed on the basis that he told the truth. I was told that that very morning the psychologist himself had walked the other way when he saw two men coming towards him whom he had interviewed the morning before. When the man went for an assessment of himself he was told that he was not a man of character because he had crossed the road when he saw somebody coming. The Minister should be wary of these fellows and their findings.
That was not the reason. It was because he was not in the cumann.
As a matter of fact, he was chairman of the cumann.
No wonder he had no character.
If the psychologist knew his job he would know that he was a most efficient man. All our people are the most efficient people who go forward.
When you subject them to psycho-analysis see what happens.
These are the guys about whom I would think twice. Perhaps some of them are all right but I would certainly vet what they do and ensure that the questions they are asking are realistic and not nonsensical as some of them have been. Responsible people should not be asked silly questions. A man in a particular job for 13 years was told he was not suitable because he answered "No" instead of "Yes" to one of the questions. The Minister should get a psychologist to examine these psychologists before he lets them out.
The contents of the Minister's speech in relation to staff relations are very heartening to people like myself who are interested in the workers. The Minister and his Department have taken great pains to streamline and improve procedures apart altogether from pay and conditions. The temporary postman or the man at the bottom is always the one who is laid off first. One never hears of managers or supervisors being laid off. If 100 temporary postmen were laid off no supervisor would be laid off. The same thing applies in industry. The people with the smallest income should be considered first. It would be no harm to get the psychologists to deal with these people to find out how they can be fitted in. These people give service day in, day out, wet or fine, whereas the other man is sitting in a plush office with an electric fire or central heating. The man who has to slog outside will be the first to go when the crunch comes.
I notice there have been a few extra appointments of postmen in Dublin. I am glad to see that. Any examination of staff should start at the bottom. Far too often it starts at the top and the person at the bottom is trampled on. I would ask the Minister to ensure that a man is not temporary for 10, 15, or 20 years. The same principle should apply as applies in the case of a higher executive or executive post in the Civil Service where a person is on probation for six, nine or 12 months and after that he is established. There is no reason why people should be kept in temporary employment, so depriving them of many of the benefits that should accrue to them when they come to leave the service.
The Minister's brief is fairly comprehensive. He is a man of vision, foresight and great consideration and I know that if there are injustices he will be only too happy to eliminate them.
In relation to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and the other Government Departments there is a high capital cost for the provision of transport. There is no reason why the semi-State bodies should not pool their resources in relation to transport and the same thing could be done in State Departments. There are many Departments with transport which could be utilised by other Departments. There are sections where transport is kept lying up for considerable periods with depreciation taking place all the time. There could be much greater efficiency in regard to transport if resources were pooled.