(Cavan): If this is the harmless function this body is to perform, I understand there is a sub-committee of the Managers Association which deals with this type of business. Why cannot they do what this proposal does?
Private Members' Business. - Local Government Services (Corporate Bodies) Bill, 1971 [Seanad]: Committee Stage (Resumed) and Final Stages.
Debate resumed on the following amendment:
1. To add to the section a new subsection as follows:
"( ) The Minister shall not make an establishment order in relation to an authority to which this Act applies unless he is requested to do so by (a) the authority in respect of which he proposes to make the establishment order or (b) the General Council of County Councils or (c) the association of Municipal Authorities of Ireland."—
(Deputy T. J. Fitzpatrick(Cavan)).
That is the whole reason for this. They are not able to carry out their ordinary functions as managers in their own areas. In addition to their ordinary day-to-day work within their own counties they are obliged to negotiate with staffs. There is a large number of categories of staffs in the local authorities and health boards. This involves a large amount of work which the Deputy will appreciate takes the manager away from his normal duties and away from the county for which, as top executive, he is responsible. While he is away, work is piling up in his home area and because of the large volume of claims coming in and the lack of proper machinery to deal with them, a backlog was building up. Consequently, there were long delays between the times the staff made their claims and the managers were finally able to meet them and discuss the claims and make a decision. There have been delays of over 12 months.
Two typical examples are the cases of the ambulance drivers and the engineers' clerks.
And the staff officers' claim and the town clerks' claim. All these claims had been lodged quite a long time when I arrived in the Department. Some were in for over a year, and the town clerks' claim was in for nearly two years, I think.
And they lost on it as a result, as the Minister knows.
They did not.
They did not get what they were entitled to. If the decision had been made earlier they would be up by another £100.
I think the Deputy now appreciates the type of service we are trying to give the managers.
(Cavan): I would agree with that 100 per cent but it is the omnibus nature of the proposal that I dislike. Could the Minister give any idea of the type of person he proposes to appoint?
The managers will appoint such officers as they feel are suitable for the position.
(Cavan): Surely it is the Minister who will make the appointment?
Provision for the appointment of board members will be included in the establishment order. I do not want to go into details now.
(Cavan): I am sure the Minister has the order ready to sign. I am still not satisfied but I cannot press the matter any further.
Amendment put and declared negatived.
Section agreed to.
SECTION 4.
Question proposed: "That section 4 stand part of the Bill."
(Cavan): This is the section which gives the Minister power to appoint members of the corporate body. At least he should consult somebody before doing that. This is the whole trend of the Bill—to give the Minister power to do everything without consulting anybody except the Minister for Finance. The Bill should specify the number of members on the board and the Minister should consult, or get nominees from the General Council of County Councils. If we are to preserve local democracy —it may not appeal to everybody but it still appeals to me—we should consult locally elected representatives. The body set up may not have any local representatives on it. Surely in a matter such as wage negotiations it would not be a bad thing to have an ordinary citizen, a chairman of a county council, even if he is only in a minority, to express his views? As it is, the Minister can put on anybody he likes. That is the whole trend of the Bill.
Would the Minister say how many he proposes to put on and will they be appointed by the Local Appointments Commission? If not how will they appoint? What qualifications will they require? The Minister has said they will be a full-time body. Will he say what further duties they are likely to have because wage negotiations take a couple of months every year or two and, if the Minister is correct, this will shorten the proceedings and it will only take a couple of weeks. I am quite sure the Minister does not envisage them reading up their home work from then until the next round comes along.
The establishment order will provide who the members shall be. I shall consult with the county managers and it is the county managers who shall form the members of the corporate body when it is established They will appoint whatever staff they feel are necessary, but there will not be very many involved, maybe one or two.
The Minister does not propose to say exactly how many?
All of the county managers in effect.
And the staff?
The staff will be a matter for the body to decide once it is established.
They are at present working with a part-time secretary.
The establishment order will not confine them to a set number of employees. They will employ whatever number they feel necessary to operate the thing effectively.
Will the staff be paid by the Department of Local Government?
No, there will be an arrangement whereby the local authorities will finance them.
It will be levied off the rates?
Yes.
(Cavan): It is now clear that this corporate body has already been set up by arrangement between the Minister and the County Managers Association. The County Managers Association is to be consulted and presumably if some other corporate body is to be set up to render some other service it is to be appointed in the same way. It is the beginning of the end of local democracy.
Not at all, we are dealing with staff matters here which are the function of the managers. We cannot appoint anybody else to a corporate body which is going to deal with staff, wages and salaries. In this particular case they are to provide a service which is related to one of the functions of the managers.
(Cavan): But it does come before the people who have to provide the money later on for sanction, and it might not be a bad thing to have some local representatives, even a minority, in an advisory capacity but as I say it seems as though it is a matter between the Minister, the Minister for Finance and the County Managers Association, which many people think is a rather sinister association.
Question put and agreed to.
Sections 5 and 6 agreed to.
SECTION 7.
(Cavan): I move amendment No. 2:
In subsection (2), page 5, to delete all words after "and" in line 24 to the end of the subsection and substitute "shall not come into operation until a resolution shall have been passed by each House of the Oireachtas approving of same."
I do not propose to detain the Minister much longer. The Bill as drafted proposes that an establishment order made by him will become law after it has been laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas unless within the next seven days—which is a reduction from the usual 21 days—on which the House has sat after the making of the order, it is annulled. I am proposing in this amendment that a resolution will have to be passed by each House, approving an order made by the Minister. This is a more positive way of approving an order of this sort than the negative way contained in the Bill which means that it will become law unless somebody does something about it. We know that orders of this type are circulated and are deemed to come before the House and nobody does anything about them. If a resolution of the House is necessary to give them legal effect the matter will appear on the Order Paper, come before the House on the Order of Business, the Minister will have to move a resolution adopting it and in that way some positive action will be taken. I have put down this amendment because I do not like the whole trend of the Bill and I think this will be an added protection.
I cannot accept this amendment. As it stands, subsection (2) of section 7 requires that every order made under the Act shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas and it empowers each House to annul the order by resolution passed within seven sittings days. This will apply not only to establishment orders but to designation orders as well under section 3, subsection (2), amending orders under section 3, subsection (8) and revoking orders under section 5. The provisions of section 7, subsection (2) are similar to those of the Health (Corporate Bodies) Act, 1961, and that section appears to have operated satisfactorily.
It is well accepted that the Oireachtas cannot hope to exercise detailed control over all the activities in the executive area of Government and control must, therefore, be limited to certain key points. In so far as the present Bill is concerned the Oireachtas is being asked, in effect, to approve in principle the idea of establishing corporate bodies to provide specified services for the Minister or for local authorities in appropriate cases. The Oireachtas is not being asked to supply a blank cheque because under section 7 it will retain the power to overrule the Minister in any case in which it considers that the establishment of a corporate body is not justified.
Under the Bill as it stands the Dáil and the Seanad will in the last analysis have effective control over the establishment of corporate bodies. It would be inappropriate to provide that every order made under the Bill would require approval of both Houses of the Oireachtas and as the Deputy well knows it would clog up the Order Paper even more than at present.
If every other statutory instrument of similar importance had to be approved by both Houses the result would be unthinkable. As the Deputy well knows hundreds of statutory instruments are made every year, many of which relate to matters of considerable importance. It is only in very rare cases that motions for the annulment of them are in fact put down. If an amendment such as this were accepted and the principle extended to all other statutory instruments of similar importance hundreds of statutory instruments would have to be debated and approved by both Houses each year. At present, even though Deputies and Senators are empowered to do so, they do not question the vast majority of these instruments. For that reason, I do not propose accepting the Deputy's amendment.
Amendment put and declared lost.
Section agreed to.
Section 8 agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.
Ordered: That a message be sent to Seanad Éireann accordingly.