It is proposed to take business in the following order: Nos. 24, 25 and 26. Private Members' Business will be taken from 6 p.m. to 7.30.
Order of Business.
I have given notice that I propose to move the motion in my name, No. 65 on the Order Paper.
I would point out to the Deputy that this is a matter for Private Members' Time which commences at 6 p.m. this evening.
As I understand it, Standing Order No. 140 states that any Standing Order or Orders of the Dáil may be suspended or modified in effect for the day's sitting, and for a particular purpose, upon motion made after notice. This has been made after notice and with your permission I propose to move it.
Might I ask, considering that this motion has been ruled out of order, what is the practice of the Ceann Comhairle in relation to Private Members' motions, whether they are in order or not? We had a similar experience last week when we gave notice of intention to discuss in Private Members' Time our motion in relation to the Lissadell estate. It was only on Monday afternoon of last week that we were told it was out of order. Surely the Ceann Comhairle should give a quicker decision than he gave on our motion in relation to Lissadell.
I gave a decision as early as I possibly could when the matter of its proposed moving was brought to my attention.
Is it usual to leave on the Order Paper motions which are out of order and which have been on the Order Paper for months?
Yes, it is in order to leave them on the Order Paper.
Why were we not told earlier that our motion was out of order? We had intimated the week before that we wanted to take the motion and we got a reply only on the afternoon of the day before we wished to move it.
Might I inform Deputy Corish that the Chair got very short notice that the Deputy wished to have the Labour motion taken.
I submit that the motion in my name, No. 65, is in order within the terms of the Standing Order. I gave you notice under Standing Order No. 140.
It may not be moved now. It is a matter for Private Members' Time.
I will repeat Standing Order No. 140:
Any Standing Order or Orders of the Dáil may be suspended or modified in effect for the day's sitting, and for a particular purpose, upon motion made after notice.
This motion is made after notice and proposes to suspend Standing Order No. 46. It is in similar terms as, if not identical with, the motion proposed by the Taoiseach in October, which was agreed, for the purpose of suspending Standing Order No. 46.
The Deputy will appreciate that the motion he refers to seeks to suspend two Standing Orders, for the purpose of discussing a Minister of the Government and to reduce the period of three hours under Standing Order No. 87 for debates in Private Members' Time.
The Standing Order states that any Standing Order or Orders of the Dáil may be suspended or modified. Deputy Cosgrave has given notice and all that is involved now is that the Standing Orders are put into operation.
What is the difficulty in view of the fact that Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil agreed that this motion would be taken tonight?
Perhaps I might come in here. A suggestion was made last week through the newspapers, emanating from the Fine Gael Whip's office, that there was such an agreement as that referred to by Deputy Corish. I made immediate inquiries and I was told the Fine Gael Chief Whip rang the office of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach and spoke to the Parliamentary Secretary's private secretary informing her that Fine Gael proposed to take Motion No. 18 in Private Members' Time this week. That is as far as it went. It was 25 minutes to six in the evening, and the lady in question took a note of it. There is no justification whatever for anybody to interpret that simple transaction as agreement by Fianna Fáil that the motion would, in fact, be taken and that the motion would be put at the conclusion of Private Members' Time this evening. You ruled out the subsequent motion as not being within Standing Orders at this time— the motion on the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries—and as far as my party are concerned we abide by your decision. If there is a motion to suspend Standing Orders, whether it is taken now or at 6 p.m., we propose to oppose it.
The terms of my motion, I submit, come within the requirements laid down in Standing Order No. 140 that any Standing Order or Orders may be suspended or modified, et cetera. I submit to you that I have given the required notice and that I am now within the terms of that Standing Order.
May I supplement that? At no other time and at no other stage except now can a motion after notice be taken. This motion is after due notice, it is given for this sitting of the Dáil, and unless we are to disregard our own Standing Orders it is perfectly clear that Deputy Cosgrave's motion is within Standing Order No. 140 and must be taken now.
It is quite clear to the Deputies that the motion to which Deputy Cosgrave refers is a motion for Private Members' Time.
It does not matter what time it is for. This is the time to move it.
It is not the time to move it. Public Business is in progress. When we come to 6 o'clock and the Chair asks for Private Members' motions, that is the time.
I submit that Standing Order No. 140 is precisely designed for a motion moved after notice, and Motion No. 65 having been placed on the Order Paper complies with the usual form of notice and moving it at this time complies with Standing Order No. 140.
We have been dealing with matters concerning Private Members' motions since 4 o'clock. The time for them is between 6 p.m. and 7.30 p.m. and it is under that heading that the Deputy's motion appears.
I am not responsible for where it appears on the Order Paper. That is dealt with in the Dáil Office. This Standing Order says that any Standing Order or Orders of the Dáil may be suspended or modified in effect for the day's sitting, and for a particular purpose, upon motion made after notice. This motion is being made after notice and I submit that it complies with the terms of that Standing Order.
The Deputy's motion does not relate to Public Business. It relates solely to Private Members' Business.
(Interruptions.)
On a point of order, we have not yet proceeded to Public Business.
This is making an absurdity of our——
We have not yet proceeded to Public Business. At the the moment the Dáil is ordering the business for the day. This motion which Deputy Cosgrave has proposed governs the business which this Dáil is asked today to consider. The business which the Deputy has intimated the Fine Gael Party wish to discuss in Private Members' Time cannot be discussed unless the Order of Business is now so ruled by the suspension of Standing Orders. This is the only time in which it can be done, when the House is ordering its business for the day. Any ruling by you, Sir, against this House making its decision now would be in clear and deliberate conflict with the Rules or Orders of the House.
Deputies
Hear, hear.
Deputy Ryan is wrong. I order the Business. This is the Taoiseach's right under Standing Orders and not that of the House.
We know that.
(Interruptions.)
Stop hiding behind the Ceann Comhairle.
The Taoiseach is boasting of being a dictator.
I submit that the reference which the Ceann Comhairle made to Public Business does not apply. This particular Standing Order does not specify Public or Private Business. It says:
Any Standing Order or Orders of the Dáil may be suspended or modified in effect for the day's sitting, and for a particular purpose, upon motion made after notice.
I have-given notice and I submit that it comes within the terms of the Standing Order and the particular purpose is to enable this to be discussed.
I must rule against Deputy Cosgrave and, as I have already pointed out, the motion is more than one to suspend Standing Orders. It is to regulate debate on a Private Members' Motion as well. It is all rather proper to Private Members' Time.
This particular Standing Order applies in the plural. It says:
Any Standing Order or Orders of the Dáil may be suspended or modified in effect for the day's sitting, and for a particular purpose . . .
I want to make it clear to the Deputy that this motion is one for Private Members' Business.
It is not.
This ruling reflects no credit on the Chair or on the Government.
It is in accord with Standing Orders.
I profoundly disagree with the ruling. It is in defiance of Standing Orders.
Would the Ceann Comhairle direct me to the terms of the Standing Orders with which his ruling complies?
That would be hard.
I suggest that only Deputies speak in this House and not the officers in front of the Ceann Comhairle.
Deputies
Hear, hear.
I want to protest against the Clerk of the Dáil prompting the Chair.
That is a perfectly accurate observation.
I want to protest against it. It is utterly out of order.
(Interruptions.)
The Clerk of the Dáil was prompting and it was perfectly audible for everybody to hear.
I would like to point out that Standing Order No. 24 provides that the Taoiseach announces the order in which Public Business is to be taken and that the order of Private Members' Business for today is a matter to be raised at Private Members' Time at 6 p.m. today.
(Interruptions.)
Standing Order No. 24.
It is hardly necessary to repeat again the terms of Standing Order No. 140. It is in the following language:
Any Standing Order or Orders of the Dáil——
I direct your attention, a Cheann Comhairle, to the fact that it does not refer to Public or Private Business
——may be suspended or modified in effect for the day's sitting, and for a particular purpose, upon motion made after notice.
I have given notice by placing on the Order Paper a motion, and I now direct and move under Standing Order No. 140 that I propose to ask permission to suspend Standing Orders, in the plural, to cover Standing Order No. 46 and if necessary Standing Order No. 87 in order to debate the terms of this motion in compliance with the terms of Standing Order No. 140.
The Deputy may move the motion he has referred to at 6 p.m. when Private Members' Business commences.
I have asked you, a Cheann Comhairle, under what Standing Order you have ruled that I may move this motion in Private Members' Time?
The question is one for Private Members' Business.
(Interruptions.)
It has been put down and it complies with the terms of the Standing Order, and it comes under the terms of Standing Order No. 140.
Any Government that shelter behind that Chair should be ashamed of themselves. That is what is being done.
Deputies
Hear, hear.
(Interruptions.)
We are sheltering behind no one.
Deputies
Out, out.
Do not be like a university debating society. I have said already that I do not mind when this motion is moved.
Debate it now.
I have not interfered with the Deputy in the slightest. We intend to oppose this motion to suspend Standing Orders. There is no question of sheltering because the Deputies, if they do not move it now, will have the right to move it at 6 p.m. We are not sheltering behind anybody.
Of course, you are. Order this now.
I am not accepting the motion at this stage. It may be moved at 6 p.m.
I want to know under what Standing Order the Ceann Comhairle has ruled.
It is a motion for Private Members' Business. That is my interpretation of the Standing Orders.
(Interruptions.)
I want to know under what Standing Order the Ceann Comhairle has ruled.
Private Members' Business.
Under what Standing Order?
Private Members' Business.
Surely it is in order to move the suspension of Standing Orders at any hour of the day?
No, at 6 p.m. where Private Members' Business is concerned.
Where is that?
With the respect which I have always shown to the Chair I want to direct your attention and that of the Government, if necessary, and of the Deputies of the House to the terms of Standing Order No. 140 which reads:
Any Standing Order or Orders—
and I repeat that it does not apply to Private Members' Time or to Public Business
—of the Dáil may be suspended or modified in effect for the day's sitting, and for a particular purpose, upon motion made after notice.
I now, Sir, within the terms of that Standing Order propose to move Motion No. 65 standing in my name on the Order Paper.
My reply to Deputy Cosgrave is that I am not accepting the motion at this time in Public Business. The motion can be moved at 6 p.m.
I want to know under what Standing Order that decision is being given. It is not within the terms of Standing Order No. 140. I am entitled to know under what Standing Order this ruling is being given.
The Deputy's motion relates to Private Members' Business.
Under what Standing Order is this being decided?
I have already explained the details of the position. I do not intend to change my decision.
I am asking the Ceann Comhairle to indicate to me and to the House under what Standing Order the Ceann Comhairle is ruling?
It is not a matter of what Standing Order but of my interpretation of the Standing Orders.
(Interruptions.)
Your interpretation of what Standing Order?
"My interpretation". Of what?
I have already ruled on the matter and there can be no further discussion until 6 p.m.
Is it Parliament or a dictatorship?
On a point of order, you may like to reflect on the terms of the decision you have announced because it does not comply with Standing Orders.
I have already considered this matter carefully and the reply given to Deputy Cosgrave is a considered one.
I think you may like to reflect on the terms of the reply you have just given.
May I again refute the interjection made by Deputy Richie Ryan who alleged here that whatever decision you made you made it, in his words, "after discussion with the Taoiseach"? I want to say, and you know as well as I do, that I had no discussion whatever with you.
You see no evil, you hear no evil and you speak no evil.
I am entitled to refute what Deputy Ryan said and as far as I am concerned the House can vote on this issue now.
Take it now.
That is a matter for the Chair.
The Taoiseach has the right to order business.
A Deputy
Not to act as the Ceann Comhairle.
The Taoiseach has no right to act as the Ceann Comhairle.
I am not acting as the Ceann Comhairle.
Or purport to act as the Ceann Comhairle.
The Ceann Comhairle can look after his own business without any help from either side.
I want to know under what Standing Order you have announced your decision?
I have already given my decision and it is on my interpretation of the Standing Orders.
I am entitled, as a Deputy of this House, to know under what Standing Order this decision is being made.
That question was addressed to the Ceann Comhairle not to the Clerk of the Dáil.
The end of democracy.
The Ceann Comhairle has ruled on the question and Deputy Cosgrave can move his motion at 6 p.m. in Private Members' Business because his motion comes under that heading and not Public Business.
It is a totally invalid ruling.
It is not. It is here.
It is not sufficient to hold up the book. You have to direct the attention of the Dáil to the particular Standing Order. Just merely holding up the book is not quoting the Standing Order in question. I want to know the Standing Order and I am entitled to know it.
Can the Ceann Comhairle say on what basis he has decided this motion is proper to Private Members' Business? Could he even enlighten us on that?
That is my interpretation of the motion.
It suits the convenience of Fianna Fáil.
As I have already said it does not suit my convenience at all. I would prefer to have it over and done with now.
Why not agree to have it now?
All right, I will agree to have it now. Put the motion now. I am not concerned about what time it is. Put your motion now, make a short statement, I will reply to your short statement and we will have a vote.
Very well. It is a pity the Taoiseach did not say that 15 minutes ago.
(Interruptions.)
Does this mean that someone from this party can also speak on this motion?
(Interruptions.)
Do you want it or not?
We are trying to oblige you.
Before Deputy Cosgrave commences, the Chair would like to know what time is being allocated to this debate?
If they want a debate on their substantive motion I suggest to Deputy Cosgrave that if he makes a short statement now I will make a short statement in reply and then we can vote on his motion.
We might have been saved a lot of unnecessary discussion if that had been agreed to earlier.
I suppose what is being done is contrary to your ruling. Is that right?
We are doing precisely what we did in October.
The position is that the Government are now giving time.
Is it the position that this was a Government decision all along?
Originally the Ceann Comhairle said the matter was out of order. Is the Ceann Comhairle now facilitating the Government in this?
The position is that it was out of order until the Taoiseach included it in the Order of Business.
You cannot have it both ways.
It all depends what the Taoiseach says whether the Ceann Comhairle allows it or not.
(Interruptions.)
I would still like to know what time is being allocated to this debate?
On the basis of a short statement from Deputy Cosgrave and a short reply from me I am agreeing to it. I am giving my agreement on conditions.
You have been making conditions for the last year.
If you want two hours for your substantive motion you can have that if you win this.
Yes, certainly, we will, not by leave or licence of the Taoiseach but because we are entitled to it.
Standing Orders give me certain powers and I am entitled and intend to take action under them.
Take action within the party.
We have done it.
Does this debate include this party as well at this stage?
Yes; the motion is one for the House. It includes the Labour Party as well. There will be a short statement from Fine Gael first.
(Interruptions.)
I have made a suggestion that I propose to agree to the taking of this motion now on condition that Deputy Cosgrave makes a short statement and I be given the right to reply in a short statement. I am not going to agree to an hour's debate on this motion at all. It is a simple question of whether or not Standing Orders be suspended. In most assemblies and in most organisations a motion to suspend Standing Orders is taken without any debate.
Let us suspend Standing Orders and have a debate. In most normal assemblies, I agree with the Taoiseach, that is what happens.
(Interruptions.)
I suppose the sooner I move the motion the sooner we will have it before us.