Committee on Finance. - Firearms Bill, 1971: Second Stage. – Dáil Éireann (19th Dáil) – Tuesday, 8 Jun 1971

Committee on Finance. - Firearms Bill, 1971: Second Stage.

Minister for Justice (Mr. O'Malley)

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The Bill has three objects. The first object is to amend the definition of "firearm" in the Firearms Act, 1825, by extending it to include component parts of a firearm. The second object is to amend the provision in the 1925 Act, which relates to the unauthorised possession of firearms, so as to reduce the penalties applicable to firearms that may be classed as sporting weapons and to increase those applicable to firearms that may be classed as military type weapons. The third object is to put beyond doubt that the section in the 1925 Act which makes it an offence carrying severe penalties to be in possession of firearms or ammunition with intent to endanger life or cause serious injury to property, extends to lives and property outside as well as inside the State.

The proposed amendment of the definition of "firearm" is provided for in section 2 of the Bill. The amendment is designed to close a loophole in the existing law whereby, for example, it is possible for stocks of component parts of firearms to be held by a number of people in such a way that, although the weapons can be assembled at short notice, no one person is legally in possession of a firearm. The amendment will also cure the anomalous situation in which a slight and easily remedied defect in an otherwise perfect weapon can sometimes result in a person charged with the offence of unauthorised possession of the weapon being acquitted by the court.

Provision is made in sections 3 and 5 of the Bill to ensure that separate firearm certificates will not have to be obtained for components. Paragraphs (c) and (d) of section 3 will empower a superintendent of the Garda Síochána to authorise the possession of component parts; and section 5 will enable component parts to be given or sold to, and possessed and carried by, a person for a firearm which he is authorised to possess, without his being required to have any separate authorisation in respect of the parts themselves. Excise duty is not payable on an authorisation.

These provisions taken together are intended to effect a tightening-up of the controls on possession of firearms. While one result of the provisions is that the penalty for the unauthorised possession of a component part will be the same as that for the firearm of which it is part, commonsense and the exercise of judicial discretion will, I have no doubt, ensure that minor breaches of the law arising from the possession of component parts will be dealt with as such.

I now pass on to the second object of the Bill. Under the law as it stands, unauthorised possession of any firearms attracts the general penalty provided in section 25 of the 1925 Act for offences for which no special penalty is provided, that is to say, on summary conviction, a fine not exceeding £50 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or both and, on conviction on indictment, a fine not exceeding £100 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or both. There is a separate, indictable offence in section 15 of the 1925 Act of being in possession of a firearm or ammunition with intent to endanger life or cause serious injury to property and some Deputies might be inclined to think that that section should be sufficient to deal with any special problems relating to military type weapons. But proving intent beyond reasonable doubt is always difficult, even where the Gardaí are fully satisfied that the intent exists, and it has been necessary to rely on the unauthorised possession provision in cases where military type weapons are seized.

Section 3 of the Bill proposes to reduce the penalties for the unauthorised possession of a sporting firearm, or a firearm that had been held under a firearm certificate which had expired but had not been revoked, to, on summary conviction, a fine not exceeding £50 for a first offence, and, for any subsequent offences, a fine not exceeding £50 for a first offence, and, for any subsequent offence, a fine not exceeding £50 or imprisonment for a period not exceeding three months or both. In the case of the unauthorised possession of any other firearms, however, the section proposes to increase the penalties to, on summary conviction a fine not exceeding £200 or imprisonment for a period not exceeding 12 months or both, or, on conviction on indictment, a fine not exceeding £500 or imprisonment for a period not exceeding five years or both. The penalty for the unauthorised possession of ammunition or a component part will be the same as that for the firearm to which the ammunition or part is appropriate.

The Government wish it to be clearly understood from these proposals in relation to penalties that they take a most serious view of the unauthorised possession of military type weapons and, while there is no intention of interfering in any way with the exercise by the courts of their discretion as to what, if any, penalty is appropriate in any particular case, the Government consider it desirable that the Oireachtas should, by enacting the proposals, express the determination of the elected representatives of the people not to tolerate the deliberate, clandestine possession of weapons of war.

This brings me to the third object of the Bill. Section 15 of the 1925 Act provides that any person in possession of a firearm or ammunition with intent to endanger life or cause serious injury to property shall be liable to suffer penal servitude for a term not exceeding 20 years or imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years. The Bill provides for clarification of the section so as to put beyond doubt that it relates to lives and property outside as well as inside the State. Even though the application of this section is restricted by the difficulty of proving the existence of intent, I believe that clarifying the law in the manner proposed will have a salutary deterrent effect on any persons or groups who may contemplate using the territory of the State as a base for unlawful armed activities outside the jurisdiction.

To complete the picture, I think I ought to make a passing reference to the provisions of section 51 of the Finance Bill, which is currently before the House. That section provides for increased fees for registration of firearms dealers and forms part of the Government's proposals in relation to the safe-keeping of stocks of firearms and ammunition in the hands of dealers. In addition, the Garda have been instructed that increased care should be taken to ensure that firearms dealers at all times maintain adequate security measures in relation to the stocks carried by them.

In summary, therefore, this is a Bill to tighten up the existing statutory controls on firearms, with a view particularly to enabling the Garda Síochána to deal more effectively with the unauthorised possession of military type weapons. I believe that the measure is one that will have the general support of the community and I have no hesitation in commending it to the House.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): As the Minister said, this Bill proposes to regulate the possession of firearms. It also proposes to bring up to date the law relating to the possession of firearms both of a sporting type and of a more lethal or dangerous type. I believe that the law relating to firearms should be clearly stated and should be firmly and impartially enforced. It is of the utmost importance that the ordinary citizen should clearly know and understand the law relating to the possession of firearms and that he should know that the Government intend to enforce that law firmly and impartially.

I believe that over the years, and especially in recent years, there has been a lot of loose talk and muddled thinking on this subject. It goes without saying that any Government worthy of the name must see to it that in this country there is only one armed army and only one police force. That is absolutely essential. It is essential, in the interests of people who might be tempted to break the law just as it is essential in the interests of law-abiding citizens, that there should be no doubt in the mind of anybody with regard to the topic. I said I believe that there has been loose thinking on this subject over the years. This party support this Bill for the reasons stated. I believe that it cannot be too clearly stated or too often stated that no cause is sufficient for the establishment here of private armies or private police forces no matter how laudable the cause in the minds of the people setting up those armies.

The Act which we propose to amend here is the Firearms Act, 1925, which simply deals in a global way with the possession of firearms. I agreed with the proposal to differentiate between firearms of a sporting type and firearms held under an expired licence on the one hand and firearms held illegally on the other hand. The Bill proposes to reduce the penalties in respect of sporting type firearms and firearms held under a licence which somebody has failed or omitted to renew, or overlooked renewing. At present the fine in respect of the illegal possession of firearms is £50 or six months on summary conviction, or £100 or two years on conviction on indictment.

This Bill proposes to reduce the penalty in respect of sporting firearms and firearms held under a licence which has expired to a flat £50 in respect of a first offence, or £50 or three months' imprisonment in respect of a second offence. It proposes to increase the penalty in respect of other types of firearms to a fine of £200 or 12 months' imprisonment on summary conviction, and a fine of £500 or five years on conviction on indictment. I believe that the proposed fines in this Bill do nothing more than bring home to the people concerned the seriousness of the offences with which we are dealing. They are extremely serious offences and it is necessary to bring home to misguided people that they are serious offences.

This is the Second Reading Stage of the Bill and we will have time to go into it in more detail on Committee Stage. The Minister tells us that there is some doubt as to whether section 15 of the Firearms Act, 1925, is wide enough to make it an offence for people to have firearms in their possession within the State with intent to endanger life or cause serious injury to property outside the State. Section 4 proposes to put that beyond doubt and to lay down that it is an offence for anyone here to have an unlicensed firearm or, indeed, I suppose, a licensed firearm, in his posession within the State with the intention of causing serious bodily harm or of endangering property outside the State.

I take this as nothing more nor less than restating the policy and principle this party accept; that only Oireachtas Éireann can declare war on any State over which we have not got jurisdiction whether that territory is within this island or whether it is a foreign power across the water. We accept that only Oireachtas Éireann can declare war and that only the lawfully constituted Army, acting under the authority of this House, can carry out the declaration of this House. This section states that fact in clear terms and, accordingly, I accept it.

There may be other points that will need to be discussed on Committee Stage in regard to the law relating to the licensing and retention of firearms. Recently it has been stated publicly that, while it is necessary to have a licence for firearms, it is not necessary to produce the firearms to the authorities when the licence is being renewed. Personally, I do not think that is the law. I think firearms must be produced when a licence is being renewed and if this is not the case the law should be changed. If it is not possible to identify the firearms because a number or mark has been erased or has worn off, the law should be changed to ensure, first, that the firearm is produced and, secondly, to ensure that it is checked properly. I do not want to make wild charges in this House but it has been stated publicly by responsible people that some Members of the Oireachtas handed over their personal firearms——

Mr. O'Malley

I do not think that arises.

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not arise on discussion of the Firearms Bill, 1971.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): If the Ceann Comhairle listens to me for a moment, I hope to relate it very closely to the Bill. That charge was made and the matter was raised in this House and elsewhere. When it was raised in this House, it was stated in reply to a query that it was impossible to check up on the position. If that is so, now is the appropriate time to change the law and regulations. It is not for me to say if these statements are true but it is an appalling state of affairs that we are living in conditions where statements like this can be made and when, apparently, it is not possible to clear the air.

It is in the interests of everyone that the law should be known, should be clearly stated and fairly and impartially enforced. I am in favour of this Bill in so far as it is going some considerable way towards clarifying the position and towards bringing home to all the seriousness of the illegal possession and use of firearms and the illegal setting up of arsenals.

We are living in a time when persons are inclined to resort to force, whether in organised groups or individually. This Bill in ordinary circumstances might be passed over as an updating of the law relating to firearms but I am availing of the opportunity of appealing to the Government and to the Minister to talk clearly and honestly and to put the thinking and the policy of the Government in this matter beyond any shadow of doubt.

Mr. Tully

There should be grave reason for bringing a measure before the House and when it is being framed every possible defect in previous legislation regarding the matter concerned should be remedied. For that reason I am not too happy about this Bill because I do not think it does very much. I do not go along with what Deputy Fitzpatrick said, that it is updating legislation and that for that reason we should support it. The Labour Party will support any legislation that will help to preserve law and order. This appears to be the object of the Bill but, having read the Bill and the White Paper issued with it, and having listened to the Minister's speech, I am a little confused.

The Minister refers to the fact that it is proposed to reduce the penalties for the unauthorised possession of a sporting-type firearm. I do not know whether "a sporting-type" would wear plus-fours and a check cap but I have a recollection that in a number of the raids carried out here sporting-type weapons were used. Although the people carrying out the raids were not sporting they succeeded in the raids and they carried shotguns. In this Bill it appears that the .22 shotgun is an inoffensive weapon but this is not so. I know the Minister has ruled out the sawn-off shotgun as a sporting-type weapon but any kind of shotgun can do a lot of damage if it is fired at close quarters. The amount of damage that can be done depends very much on the cartridge.

I go all the way with those who say that unauthorised carrying of arms must be stopped. One sees repeatedly reports of drilling in this country, of people parading openly with weapons and ammunition, and discharging the arms in public. Some effort should be made to take these weapons out of their possession. They are not carrying out the exercises simply to amuse themselves. There must be some reason for doing it. I know a number of people have been arrested and some have been charged. It would be interesting if the Minister could give us the figures in relation to those who are charged and convicted. I do not know what has to be done with weapons before one commits an offence which merits punishment.

As one who served in the National Army and who has a fair knowledge of various types of weapons, I am appalled by the stories I hear of people who are little more than children being in possession of the most sophisticated types of weapons and being taught how to use them. These weapons did not just drop out of the sky, or maybe they did. They certainly came in here and they have been kept here for some reason. We might as well face up to the fact that we are either prepared to agree that this country will be governed by a democratically elected Government or that the Government should be removed by force because there are people who apparently believe that the Government of this country should and will be removed by force. If they do not believe that for what are they training? For what are they collecting weapons? For what are they hoarding arms and ammunition?

We hear of people using weapons. There is what I would describe as a slight reference to the fact that the punishments specified will apply to those convicted if they are operating outside the State as well as inside the State. I do not know how this will operate. I do not know whether the Minister means that, if someone is sitting on the Border and sees someone else coming back across the Border from the Six Counties after committing a crime, and if there is a policeman close enough to be able to say what that someone actually did, then that someone can be punished. I do not know if that is the reasoning behind it. Does it mean that if the someone comes across with a gun in his possession he is committing an offence?

Again, if a person has been in possession of a shotgun for a number of years and has not been in the habit of taking out a licence each year, it would be unreasonable, I agree, to fine that person heavily. Provision, however, is made for the court in this regard and the Minister referred to it in his brief. I cannot understand why there should be a specific provision which will not permit the same court to punish severely someone who is in possession of a weapon which has been or will be used for other than sporting purposes; it is not very sporting to hold people up and put them in fear of their lives.

I and my party are very definite about this. Deputy Fitzpatrick stated that Oireachtas Éireann are the only people who have the right to declare war. Less than two years ago I stated here that, since the decision of this House was that we do not take part in any kind of force against the Six Counties, then we must stand by that and, if there is to be a change, let the change be made here by the Government. Do not let us close our eyes to the fact that there are people in existence who are a danger not alone to those in the Six Counties—and I have no sympathy at all for the ruling class there—but are also a danger to this House and to everything it stands for. Let us be fair and honest about this. I do not think this Bill is doing what it should do. Apparently the Garda think they have not got the authority they require to collect all the arms around the country. Goodness knows, we heard enough about all the unlicensed guns in the North. I would like a head count of all the unlicensed guns in the South. If the Garda have not got the authority to collect these unlicensed guns then someone should be given that authority. No one, except those authorised by the State, is entitled to carry guns or be in possession of weapons.

This Bill is not doing what it should do. It is about time somebody was appointed in the courts to give a fair trial to those who carry guns unlawfully for unlawful purposes, to those who carry explosives or other weapons. It makes a joke of the country when people can go into court, with all the evidence against them, and get off on a technicality, making matters worse than they actually were before they were charged.

Minister for Justice (Mr. O'Malley)

I should like, first of all, to thank the two Deputies who have spoken. It would appear that the House welcomes the Bill and agrees that the Bill is necessary. I am glad this is the reaction.

Deputy Fitzpatrick said that, when I was asked about allegations by a Member of this House in regard to firearms allegedly handed over by other Members of the Oireachtas, I said it was impossible to check the position arising from that allegation. I did not say what Deputy Fitzpatrick says I did: I said that the Deputy who made the allegation should go to the Garda and give them the evidence on which he made it and they would forthwith investigate but that, on the basis of an unsubstantiated allegation, I was not prepared to instruct the Garda to pick on any particular group in the community——

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): Even though the statement was made by a former member of that group.

Mr. O'Malley

——and carry out a detailed investigation. Deputy Fitzpatrick asked me to outline clearly the policy of the Government with regard to firearms and the illegal use of firearms. I did that in my opening speech. I have also done it from time to time during the year. I will repeat it now. The Government are absolutely determined to do all they can to put down the use of unauthorised firearms and especially of those referred to as military type weapons.

Deputy Tully said he had heard rumours of drilling and people openly parading with weapons. I cannot give the House a categorical assurance that from time to time drilling or parading with some form of weapons does not take place, but I can assure the House that drilling with any type of weapons has been very, very infrequent during the past 12 months. It is certainly not open. It is confined to small groups and, if it takes place at all, it takes place indoors or in extremely remote parts of the country. There is no open parading with weapons. There has not been for some time.

The Garda have standing instructions that on any show of weapons those weapons are to be seized. They know that and they will carry out that instruction. I should probably not be honest were I to say that there is absolutely no drilling because from time to time, though infrequently, we receive information of drilling in remote mountainy areas or in forests and occasionally of drilling on a small scale indoors. But the very significant thing is that in each case the numbers are very small and the frequency with which this sort of activity takes place is now very little. It is something which the Garda have done a very great deal in the past 12 months to stamp out. It is practically gone and the slight amount of illegal drilling that might still go on can and will be stamped out altogether if local people who believe this may happen in their locality or is happening, inform the gardaí immediately so that they can move in. If this is done, any remaining drilling—and I want to emphasise that it is now very slight indeed and the numbers involved are very small —will be completely stamped out.

Deputy Tully said that what we referred to here as sporting-type weapons have been and can be used in armed raids. I appreciate this difficulty but feel it would be unfair for me to put every weapon into the military category, even though sporting-type weapons can be used for a para-military purpose. I am advised that a shotgun is most dangerous when it is "sawn off" and that it is likely to be used by non-sporting types when so altered——

Mr. Tully

Loaded with certain shot it can be dangerous in any state.

Mr. O'Malley

——rather than in the normal way. Deputies will see that under section 3 where the barrel is less than 24" it becomes a military-type weapon. I am advised that the usual length of a shotgun barrel is 25" and, allowing for the fact that some genuine ones may be a little shorter——

Mr. Tully

The only reason it is more dangerous when it is shorter is when the shot spreads further at short range.

Mr. O'Malley

Deputy Tully said that some courts did not seem to be willing to deal with the problems posed by people charged before them with unlawful possession of firearms. Deputies will appreciate that I cannot comment on that but if courts in some instances do not appear to impose heavy penalties, or the sort of penalties Deputies feel appropriate, that is a matter that is outside my function and that of the gardaí and the Attorney General. It is certainly not the fault of either the Garda or the prosecution if apparently inadequate penalties are sometimes imposed.

I think that answers all the points raised in the debate but I should like to reiterate clearly that the Government are determined that the unauthorised possession of firearms, particularly of a military or para-military type, will be stamped out. The Garda are doing all in their power to achieve this and I think the Bill will make matters somewhat easier for them, in particular since it differentiates between the sporting-type weapon and the very dangerous military-type weapon.

Mr. Briscoe

Is it proposed to introduce a period of amnesty in which people who might wish to do so may hand in weapons particularly when this Bill is passed?

Mr. O'Malley

The Deputy will see in section 6 (4) that the Act will come into operation on the 14th day after the date of its passing. I put in that subsection so that there will be a gap of 14 days once it is passed to give people ample time to hand in firearms which might be caught by the Bill.

Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 8 Jun 1971