Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 8 Jun 1971

Vol. 254 No. 7

Adjournment Debate. - Hackney Driver Regulations.

Mr. Harte

The reason I have raised this matter on the Adjournment is because I feel the House is not properly aware of what has happened. Prior to September, 1967, a person who wished to take out a hackney licence in rural Ireland had to pay £1 for a badge and £1 10s for his car and, provided the motor car which he wished to use for the service was up to the prescribed standard, he was legally entitled to go on the road and charge for the services he carried out.

For some unexplainable reason the Department of Local Government have now introduced regulations which mean that any person who wishes to take out a hackney licence in rural Ireland must now pay £11 and £30 and he must have a car which is not older than two years. These regulations are to me criminal, particularly on the western seaboard where many small farmers, in order to supplement their already very small income, have hackney licences and drive people to Mass or take car loads to local dances at the weekends. These people are now forced to drive a vehicle which is not older than two years, they have to pay £11 for a badge, £30 to license the car, and in addition they may possibly have to pay £100 insurance. It is not proper for the Department of Local Government to expect people to pay this amount of money in order to provide a service in an area which needs such a service.

In one area I know, Dunfanaghy in County Donegal, the two local taximen have gone out of business. The area from Falcarragh to Creeslough is now without a hackney service unless some person comes up to the standards required by the Minister for Local Government. If no one comes up to these standards the Department is forcing people to practise illegal methods of carrying passengers. If an accident occurs these people will be told to hold their tongue and not admit that they were paying for carriage in the motor car involved in the accident. If a compensation case is to be taken against the offending party they will be expected to appear in a court of law and remain silent.

I have asked the Minister for Local Government today if we will revert to the pre-1967 conditions. I am satisfied if this were done the Garda authorities would ensure that the type of vehicle offered for licensing would be of the standard required or demanded by the Department of Local Government. How many people can state with any degree of authority that a vehicle under two years of age is a better vehicle than a vehicle which is four years of age? The four year old vehicle may have been very well serviced and may even have a very low mileage rate, whereas the two year old vehicle could have been hired out by one of the famous car hire firms in the city and may have put up 50,000 or 60,000 miles a year; but because it was under the two year limit it would still be eligible for licensing.

I believe the Minister, who comes from a rural part of the country, realises that many people in small towns with businesses who find their profits dwindling supplement their income by driving people around. The Minister knows of many small farmers who find it difficult to make ends meet and have a licence to provide a hackney service, but these regulations are forcing these people out of business. The Department should have another look at this. I am satisfied that if they specify other conditions the service will still be provided.

If an individual wants to get into the hackney car business—and I exclude the taximeter areas of Dublin and Cork—he must present a car which is less than two years old, he must pay £11 for his own licence, £30 for the hackney licence and pay his insurance premium, whereas an existing hackney driver will pay £1 for his licence and £1 10s for his motor car. There is an argument for protecting the men who are at present giving this service, but if these people opt out the licence is not transferable except to a personal representative or a member of the family. It has not been defined whether the present hackney owner has the right to sell his hackney licence and I should like the Minister to clarify this particular point when he is replying.

I do not want to delay the proceedings of the House and I do not want to go over ground I have already gone over, but I know of at least 20 people who have made inquiries at the local Garda station about how to get a licence but when they were told of these conditions they shied off. While this problem is now showing its head in Donegal I am quite satisfied it will not be too long before people will be knocking at the door of the Minister's house in West Galway. Only at that stage will he become conscious of what is happening. I would appeal to the Minister to reconsider the whole position and to allow into this business persons who might wish to give a service.

Mr. Dowling

I was very interested to hear what Deputy Harte had to say about this problem. I know the situation in Dublin city is that the taxi-drivers——

Mr. Harte

On a point of order. this question has nothing at all to do with Dublin city. It excludes the taximeter area of Dublin and Cork.

Mr. Dowling

The taxi drivers in Dublin city who have been mentioned by Deputy Harte are complaining that the law has not been fully enforced in relation to the regulations about which Deputy Harte complains. They feel that the regulations of the Department of Local Government are suitable regulations negotiated by them in relation to a particular service, that they are not being fully enforced and that they should be fully enforced by the Department and by the Garda Síochána. I am appalled to hear Deputy Harte is anxious to revert to the old crocks rally.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is aware that the question states "conditions outside the taximeter area"?

Mr. Dowling

I have gone away from that. I have gone on to the question of the standards that Deputy Harte spoke about, in relation to the two year old crocks, in relation to the vehicle for licensing. It would appear that Deputy Harte is not concerned about the standards. I think an ever-increasing standard in relation to the type of car that should be used is very important and that the travelling public are entitled to the best type of conveyance.

Mr. Harte

Joe, will you sit down and stop making a fool of yourself?

Mr. Dowling

If Deputy Harte wants to pack the roads with old crocks, that is his affair. I wonder if that is the view of the other members of his party. The standards have been laid down by the Department and I and other Members of this House took an active interest in the compilation of those standards.

Mr. Harte

Tell that to Deputy Blaney who comes from the same constituency as I do.

Mr. Dowling

The travelling public have to be protected and the new standards must be enforced to the limit. We must ensure that the public have proper vehicles to travel in, not driven around the country in any type of crock, as has been suggested by Deputy Harte. There are standards laid down and there is no reason why the Department would not fully enforce them. This is in accord with the wishes of the people earning their living in this business. They have made their views known throughout the country. Deputy Harte is well aware that this matter was discussed in the House, that the views of Deputies have been brought to bear from time to time in debates on the Department of Local Government Estimate and on other occasions in relation to the upgrading of the service in order to ensure that the travelling public would get a fair and adequate deal in relation to travel by taxi or hackney.

I hope the Minister will not step down on this occasion. I hope he will fully honour the pledges given to the people in this business in order to ensure that the vehicle registered would be able to do service on the road for a considerable time, not just any old crock that Deputy Harte has referred to. I hope the wishes of the taxi drivers in relation to the enforcement of the regulations covering identity discs, strips and other features that affect people in the city will be fully and adequately met.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. Molloy)

The whole taxi and hackney business was gone into very thoroughly by me last summer and arising out of my personal investigations and interviews with people in the business I introduced new regulations which made it more difficult for persons to enter into this business. There were many reasons for doing this. One of the primary reasons was to ensure that the standard of service being made available to the public would be improved and, secondly, I was conscious of the need to offer some protection and guarantee to those operators in the business to enable them to make a decent livelihood out of their taxi and hackney businesses.

I am greatly surprised at the stand taken by Deputy Harte in this matter because as the position operated anybody with a motor vehicle could walk into the licensing authority, pay £2 or £3, obtain a licence and operate on a part-time temporary basis, whenever he so wished. This was operating to the detriment of persons who were full-time hackney men and full-time taxi men. They had unfair competition from persons many of whom were otherwise employed and who at the weekends would come out and take some of the business, which was, in effect, taking the bread and butter out of the mouth of the full-time hackney man and full-time taxi man. I was concerned that this situation should not be allowed to continue and I was anxious to try to ensure that those who were in the business could be given some guarantee by me that they would have some protection from this type of operator and would have some guarantee of a decent livelihood.

The measures which were decided on were decided after consultation on several occasions. I attended these interviews myself and had personal discussions with the men in the business following which I introduced regulations, which as was stated today in the reply, will be allowed to operate for two years and shall then be reviewed. I do not think any great case can be made in support of the type of argument Deputy Harte is making here. As a matter of fact I am very greatly surprised that he should come in and make this argument.

Mr. Harte

What type of argument does the Minister refer to?

Mr. Molloy

That we should revert to the situation which obtained before the new regulations were introduced.

Mr. Harte

Were they not satisfactory?

Mr. Molloy

No. They were not satisfactory.

Mr. Harte

Why did you keep them in operation?

Mr. Molloy

Those who were dissatisfied with the situation were the persons in the business. To sum up the reasons, as I have told the House already, my idea was to raise the standards in the business but in order not to operate to the detriment of those already holding licences I applied the regulations only to new entrants. Another complaint was that there was an increase in the number of licences being issued and this was operating to the disadvantage of those who were seeking to get full-time employment from the business.

Mr. Harte

Mostly in Dublin and Cork.

Mr. Molloy

There was a very strong argument made to me to introduce a limitation on the number of licences issued in any one year but I was very reluctant to bring about that type of situation which would make it a closed shop. In order not to close it completely I merely raised the standards for new applicants. It would in no way affect any of those who were operating and who held licences. As a matter of fact some persons whose licences had lapsed had been operating the business and I allowed the very generous period of two years prior to the introduction of the new regulations and the new regulations would not apply to anybody who held a licence in those two years.

I do not think what the Deputy said in his question is correct, as he puts it, that particularly in respect of new licence holders in rural Ireland the fee of £30 is excessive. The fee of £30 does not apply at all to the licence holders in rural Ireland. It only applies to persons who are not licence holders but who are applying for new licences and who were not in the business for two years prior to the introduction of the new regulations. I do not think there is any validity at all in the allegation in the Deputy's question. The Deputy named one place where there were not any operators, that people who had been operating had ceased to operate the business. If there is an opportunity there for somebody to operate a hackney licence successfully, then in that type of situation I do not think the fee of £11 for the licence and £30 for the vehicle, making a total of £41, is excessive.

Mr. Harte

Provided the car is not two years old.

Mr. Molloy

The regulation regarding cars, that the vehicle must not be more than two years old, is not excessive either.

Mr. Harte

It is ridiculous.

Mr. Molloy

It is not. It is my duty to the travelling public, who avail of these publicly licensed vehicles, to ensure that the standard of these vehicles is such that a good service can be given. There were also many other aspects of the regulations regarding cleanliness and other matters for the protection of the public which were not raised in the question put down by the Deputy. I am not keen to encourage persons to come in and take the bread and butter out of the mouths of people who are legitimately in the business, who depend on this business for their livelihood, who, like other members of the community, have a stake in the community. They have family commitments, housing and other expenses which arise in the normal way for all citizens, and they should not have their livelihood grossly interfered with by persons who can enter into this trade to operate at night or to operate at the weekends purely to supplement an income which they otherwise have available to them.

The regulations will be reviewed at the end of two years. If Deputy Harte wants to have this matter included in the review I shall be pleased to have it looked at then. I certainly have no reason to believe that there is any legitimate cause for complaint in the operation of the new regulations as introduced by me last autumn.

Mr. Harte

Before the Minister sits down, would he have a special look at the case where there is hardship?

Mr. Molloy

The Minister has concluded.

Mr. Harte

Would the Minister not have a look at a case where there is hardship?

Mr. Molloy

The Minister is always interested in cases of hardship but these regulations apply for two years and there will be no change.

The Dáil adjourned at 7.55 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 9th June, 1971.