asked the Minister for Transport and Power if (a) his Department and (b) any State body under its aegis has employed management consultants since the 1st January, 1969; and, if so, if he will state in respect of (a) and (b) (i) the name of each consultant, (ii) the length of time spent on each consultancy, (iii) the fee and the expenses paid and (iv) the number of consultant personnel engaged; and if he will give the names of the State bodies involved.
Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Management Consultants.
32.
Since 1st January, 1969, two consultancy assignments have been commissioned by my Department and in both cases they were given to the firm of McKinsey and Company, Incorporated. The first assignment, which was commissioned in April, 1970, was to review the activities of the B & I Line and CIE in cross-Channel freight transport. The consultants reported finally in August, 1970. The fees amounted to £21,000 and expenses to £6,835. The second assignment, which was commissioned in December, 1970, was to assist the committee set up to investigate the deterioration in CIE's financial position and to identify possible corrective measures. The terms of appointment provide for professional fees of about £7,500 a month plus out of pocket expenses, but as the consultants have not yet furnished their report, it is not possible to give particulars of cost. In the case of both assignments, the number of consultant personnel engaged is a matter for McKinsey and Company, Incorporated. It is normal practice for the State sponsored bodies under the aegis of my Department to engage consultants from time to time to assist the management in the solution of particular problems. The choice of consultants, the duration of each consultancy, the costs and other particulars are matters for the body concerned and the particulars sought by the Deputy are not available in my Department.
Surely the Departments in which these consultants were working would be able to tell the Minister how many members of the consultancy staff were engaged?
This is a matter for the consultants themselves. All I am concerned about is that an appropriate fee is charged. Outside that the number of personnel or the way in which the personnel operate is a matter entirely for the consultants. Once the fee is fixed we are protected.
May I ask the Minister what norm he goes by in agreeing a fee with consultants?
Within our Department we have considerable knowledge of consultancy operations. There have been other consultancy operations in Bord Fáilte and other bodies. I can say with confidence that the value we got from the investigations into the cross-Channel transportation situation was magnificant because the McKinsey company had just completed a very detailed investigation into British Railways and also a very detailed investigation into European transportation organisations. They had this expertese available and we were immediately able to make use of it and a large amount of research and preliminary research and investigation that would otherwise have to take place was avoided in this case and a very rapid report was made to me by them in a matter of months. As a result of that we are now completely reshaping the transportation operation across the Irish Sea between Ireland and Britain as it impinges on British Railways and other British transport corporations, B & I and CIE. I shall be announcing the full details of this in the very near future.
Would the Minister——
Mr. Keating rose.
Is there any hope of getting on with questions? We have 168 to deal with.
I have not been abusing supplementaries.
I have not asked one at all.
It is a matter for the Chair how many supplementary questions are put, not the Deputies.
With regard to the commission in April, 1970 to August 1970 the fee was £21,000, something like £3,000 a month, whereas the present commission with CIE is costing £7,500 a month. Can the Minister explain this vast difference?
Part of the answer to that was contained in my previous reply. They did not have to do the same amount of work on the transportation question because they had been doing precisely that job on the——
Was that a factor in negotiations?
It was very much a factor. Much of the research was eliminated by reason of their up to date knowledge after working with British Railways.
Deputy Keating.
Is it not true that in the period referred to in Deputy Cooney's question either by your Department or by a State body under its aegis there has been the employment in a consultancy capacity of the Hill subsidiary of Messrs. Dun and Bradstreet of New York, that the question investigated was the question of the purchase of Messrs. Thomas Cook and Company which was being put on the market by a decision of the British Government and that the consultancy fee in this context was £25,000?
No, the way consultants work is that they make a preliminary survey at first before a price is agreed. The particular matter the Deputy is referring to is very much in the preliminary stage. No agreement had been reached.
Do they charge for the preliminary?