Vol. 256 No. 10
asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he will state in respect of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland the total amount and the amount per head of population expended in the year 1969-70 by public authorities on social security, viz. national insurance benefits, non-contributory social welfare benefits and family or children's allowances.
5.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare the cost to public authorities in the State if the average amount expended by them per head of population in social security payments, viz. in national insurance benefits, non-contributory social welfare benefits and family or children's allowances, were at the same level as in Northern Ireland.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 4 and 5 together.
The amounts expended in the State in the year 1969-70 under the headings mentioned in the questions were as follows:
|
Total Amount |
Amount per head of population |
|
|
£ |
£ |
|
|
National Insurance Benefits |
45,824,000 |
15.42 |
|
Non-contributory social welfare benefits |
30,247,000 |
10.18 |
|
Family or Children's Allowances |
13,852,000 |
4.66 |
|
The respective figures for Northern Ireland are:- |
||
|
National Insurance Benefits |
66,120,000 |
43.28 |
|
Non-contributory social welfare benefits |
18,397,000 |
12.04 |
|
Family or Children's Allowances |
15,400,000 |
10.08 |
It is estimated that the additional cost in 1969-70 to public authorities in the State of applying the foregoing Northern Ireland figures of expenditure per head of population would be £50 million, comprising approximately £28 million social insurance benefits, £6 million non-contributory social welfare benefits, and £16 million family or children's allowances. In this calculation it is taken that the State would bear the usual proportion of approximately one-third of the cost of insurance benefits.
Could the Minister, bearing in mind that the figures he gave show that the cost of national insurance per capita, per head of the population, in Northern Ireland at £43.28 is almost three times the figure of £15.42 for the Republic, explain how the cost of almost trebling our national insurance bill of £46 million can be only £28 million, the cost to the community? I should like him to explain that first of all. I have a number of other queries to put on his misleading information the last day.
This statistical exercise which the Deputy has put to me is not a factual comparison. To make a real comparison of the actual amount involved one would have to know the number of persons unemployed or entitled to benefit at a particular given time in each of the two areas and, as the incidence of unemployment is higher in Northern Ireland, in the Six Counties, than it is here it is difficult to estimate without making a comparison item for item. The Deputy knows well that there is no direct comparison for unemployment assistance, non-contributory widows' and old age pensions between here and the Six Counties because they have no comparable benefit and no comparable scheme except the supplementary benefit scheme. On the other hand, social insurance here is confined to persons up to a limit of £1,600 whereas in the Six Counties social insurance is payable by all and everybody is covered under the social insurance scheme.
The Minister's reply has no relevance to Question No. 5, which asks what the average amount expended by public authorities per head of population would be with the same level as in Northern Ireland. Would the Minister not agree that the answers he gave the last day were misleading?
No, I do not agree.
Did I not put it to him specifically the last day: "Is the Minister suggesting it is incorrect to state the total sum in transfer payments is bigger than our sum for half the population? Is the Minister challenging me on that?" and the Minister replied: "I am." Would he not agree the figures he has now given show that the total cost is about £92 million in this part of the country and, in Northern Ireland, with half the population, it is £99 million? Will the Minister now withdraw the misleading statements he made in this House last week?
No. The figure I have given the Deputy now is approximately the same as what I gave him last week.
The Minister has not answered the question I asked. Will he read the question and answer it because the question I asked, to which I do want an answer, is the average amount expended per head of the population with the same level in Northern Ireland and what the cost would be? The Minister has given us figures showing that in this part of the country the cost per head of the population is £30.26. He has given us figures showing that in Northern Ireland it is a figure of £65.90 per head of the population. Would the Minister, therefore, agree that the cost of raising the per capita payment in this part of the country to the Northern Ireland level is more than double the present cost of these payments in the Republic, because £65 is more than double £30? Would he answer that question straight, yes or no?
I gave the figures as far as it is possible to give them in answer to the two questions. I gave what the total amount under each scheme is and the amount per head of the population.
May I ask the Minister if he has taken into account in his compilation of the data the fact that there is in Northern Ireland the earnings related supplementary system both in regard to unemployment and to sickness benefit, for which there is no comparable system here; if he has taken into account the fact that there is a graduated pension system in operation in Northern Ireland, for which there is no comparable system here, and if he has, for example, taken into account the fact that there is in Northern Ireland a scheme of retirement pension at 60 for women while it is 65 here. These are factors which the Minister, in assessing the figure, has not taken into account. I suggest to him that, if they were taken into account, the figure would, in fact, be in the region of £85 million and this is the figure the social security experts both in Newcastle and in the Northern Ireland insurance section have in fact reached. The figure of £50 million, therefore, is quite misleading on the Minister's part.
Question No. 6.
Could I ask the Minister——
The Deputy has already asked three supplementary questions——
Yes, but I want——
Would the Deputy listen for one moment?
This arises——
Chair, Chair.
These questions would have been more relevant on the Estimate which concluded this morning instead of at Question Time.
This arises out of Question Time last week. I want to ask the Minister will he not agree that the total cost of raising our per capita payments to the Northern Ireland level would be £104 million, more than double his figure of £50 million?
No.
Right. Then I will raise the matter on the Adjournment and I will pin the Minister down there.
Could I ask the Minister, on the figures he read out for children's allowances in the North, are these not more than double what they are here?
Agreed.
Question No. 6.
National insurance payments are treble.
If the Deputies are anxious to laud the social welfare system in the North I can assure them that this is not one of the things which would in any way hinder the reunification of this country tomorrow.
How can the Minister assure us of that?
Leave him to stew in the juice of his own stupid statement.
Deputies bring up figures time and again in this House in an attempt to denigrate the social welfare system here and with no other purpose than to show that we could not compete.
Order. Question No. 6.
If Deputies want to hear the facts I will give them to them.
Facts? The Minister has given a figure—£65 in the North and £30 per head here, more than double. That is what the Minister is trying to hide.
You gave us the Border.
A Cheann Comhairle, would the Minister for Industry and Commerce repeat that statement?
What statement?
I will repeat it: you gave us the Border.
That is an intelligent remark coming from the Fianna Fáil Party.
It is a fact.
Read the Treaty and Document No. 2.
Order, Question No. 6.
