asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if he will make a statement on the future of the poultry industry within the EEC.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Membership of EEC.
88.
The general implications of EEC membership for the poultry and eggs industry were outlined in the study Irish Agriculture and Fisheries in the EEC published by my Department early last year. There has been no change in the basic situation since then.
In the negotiations for Ireland's accession to the European Communities, arrangements have been made for a transitional period of five years for progressive harmonisation of feed prices. A system of compensatory levies on imports and refunds on exports will apply during this period to offset differences between feed prices in Ireland and in other member States. We are also seeking to maintain our animal health controls on imports of poultry and this matter is still under consideration. The Community have agreed that we may maintain our existing egg grading system for eggs which differs from the Community system, during the transitional period.
The Community are now more than self-sufficient in poultry meat and production is still increasing. They have also reached self-sufficiency in eggs. The enlargement of the Community to include the four applicant States will not significantly alter the position as the latter also have a high degree of self-sufficiency in both poultry meat and eggs. In those circumstances there seems little prospect of any appreciable higher prices within the EEC and the outlook may be primarily one of ensuring that our egg producers and poultry processors will retain the home market. With the growth in the trend here towards large-scale efficient production units, with the best strains of breeding stock being available and with equalised feed costs it seems reasonable to conclude that the industry should largely be able to withstand competition from any imports that might take place, for example, from Northern Ireland.
While it would hardly be realistic to expect any increase in our output of eggs, a continuing expansion in output of poultry meat can be envisaged due to the probable increase in consumption of poultry meat with the rising price of red meats.
89.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries what modifications in structure and legal position to the functions of Bord Bainne does he consider likely on entry to EEC especially in respect of (a) monopoly and (b) producer control of marketing boards; and whether any transitional arrangements are probable.
The monopoly export functions of An Bord Bainne would not be in conformity with EEC regulations. I have discussed the situation with representatives of the main farmer organisations, the IAOS and the board and I understand that these bodies are now formulating proposed arrangements designed to ensure that as far as possible the advantages of centralised exporting of dairy products will continue to be maintained after Ireland's accession to the EEC. In reply to the Deputy's question of 22nd July last on this topic, I made it clear that I consider it would be a retrograde step to return to a position where over 100 creameries would be exporting individually, in many cases on a very small scale. The farming and cooperative interests can accordingly be assured of my support for any suitable arrangements which might prevent this position arising.
90.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if the intervention price for beef in the EEC will be payable in respect of all whole carcases or particular cuts; and, if the latter, how the differential prices will be calculated.
The relevant provision in the present EEC regulation is that intervention measures may be taken in respect of fat cattle and meat thereof, fresh or chilled, in the form of carcases, sides, compensatory quarters, forequarters or hind quarters. The Council can extend this list.
Prices for meat are calculated by applying appropriate co-efficients to the live fat cattle price.
91.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries whether, having regard to the recent indications that the EEC will require some 100,000 tons of frozen beef during 1972, negotiations are being undertaken to secure a share of this large market for this country.
Shares of the EEC deficit of beef for processing are not obtained by international negotiation. When a quarterly estimate is announced of quantities admissible and of the rate of levy which applies, importers in EEC countries apply for import licences for their requirements. It is then a matter for commercial action by them to secure supplies from outside the EEC at the lowest prices. Our exporters have not sought to participate in this trade because the prices obtainable, taking into account import duties and whatever levies apply from time to time, are lower than are obtainable in our alternative markets for frozen beef.
92.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if in view of the fact that it may be impossible to provide State funds to marketing boards dealing with products covered by common agricultural policies after our accession to the EEC, he will consider making substantial funds available in advance of accession to ensure that there is adequate finance available to Irish agricultural marketing boards for many years ahead.
The Deputy should be aware that the position of our agricultural marketing boards in the context of EEC membership is being considered at present both at official level and by the farming and other interests concerned. Obviously, when decisions are being taken as regards these boards' marketing activities under EEC conditions, the question of the financing of them will have to be considered.
Would the Minister not agree that some steps should be taken in this matter before we are covered by the EEC law? Does he not agree that a decision needs to be taken?
With regard to marketing boards I accept that the quicker we adapt to EEC conditions the better.
93.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if he favours the adoption by the EEC of a common policy for bacon; and if he has made any representations in the matter.
The basic regulation giving effect to the common organisation of the EEC pigmeat market applies to bacon. The question of adapting the EEC pigmeat regulations to take account of modifications which would be necessary in relation to the lighter type pigs used for bacon production is being examined by the EEC Commission in consultation with the candidate countries.
Can the Minister state if he has made any representations in relation to this matter? Can he state if he has any views on this question?
In general, it is likely our outlet for bacon will continue to be Britain and, since the type of pig suitable for that market might not necessarily be suitable for other outlets in the enlarged EEC, it would be necessary for us to make this clear to the Commission.
Is the Minister aware that there is an impression abroad that the Danes are making all the running on this matter?
There are all kinds of impressions abroad. I do not know what the Deputy means by saying the Danes are making all the running.
They are pressing for adaptations to be made to take account of the bacon industry. Bacon is not used on the Continent to any great extent with the exception of Denmark and it is also used in Britain. We have an interest in this matter but we have not pressed it.
Measures have recently been taken for the rationalisation of the manufacturing aspect of the bacon industry.
I do not mean that. I am speaking in regard to the EEC common policy.
The Danes are running in the right direction—away from the Common Market.
94.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if the implementation of the structural reform policies of the EEC in relation to the provision of pensions for older farmers who choose to retire from farming is likely to be affected by the fact that in Ireland farmers are not covered by social security, whereas in most EEC countries they are; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
95.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries what Irish aids to structural reform of farming would be likely to be superseded by the adoption of the draft proposals on structural reform which are before the Council of Ministers at present; and the approximate number of farmers who would be likely thereby to be deprived of aids which are at present available to them.
96.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if he is satisfied that sufficient provision is made for support of part-time farming in the latest draft proposals for structural reform of agriculture laid down by the EEC Commission before the Council of Ministers; and if not, what steps he intends taking in the matter.
97.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries the likely effect of EEC membership on the small farm incentive bonus scheme.
98.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries the likely effect of EEC membership on the operation of the pilot areas development scheme.
With your permismission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 94, 95, 96, 97 and 98 together.
The policies pursued by the Government over a number of years in the field of structural improvement in agriculture, including land settlement, the small farm incentive bonus scheme, and western development work generally, parallel to a great extent the stated aims of the draft proposals for the reform of agriculture which the EEC Commission have submitted to the Council of Ministers. The Council have not yet taken decisions on these draft proposals and until they do it would not be possible to say precisely how the various measures in operation here for the improvement of agricultural structures would be affected. All our existing structural aids will, it is expected, fall to be examined in due course by the EEC Commission in the light of the Council's decisions. The Government are keeping in close touch with the situation and current aids and incentives are being reviewed in the context of the evolution of EEC policy.
Is it not the case that the draft proposals have been spelled out in very considerable detail and that the information is there? The Minister should be able to answer the question.
The draft proposals are common knowledge. They are available to everyone. Many of our schemes, such as a small farm bonus incentive scheme and others, are remarkably like the Mansholt proposals.
Question No. 99.
Is it not the case that the Mansholt proposals would exclude from certain aids farmers who cannot reach the target, or farmers who start off above the target, and that this might mean that if it is extended to our aids as well, a number of farmers will not be able to receive aid which they are receiving at the moment?
I think this is to read something into the Mansholt proposals that is not actually there. As I understand the Mansholt proposals, they face up to the fact that, in the case of, let us say, an elderly farmer working on land which does not and cannot afford a decent living, an alternative means of getting a living must be found through a pension and the use of that land by somebody else. I do not think this would conflict heavily with our general thinking on the structural proposals we have got already.
That is a great oversimplification.
The Mansholt proposals are so exhaustive that we could hardly simplify them—not oversimplify them——
The only difficulty is that we have not got here the outlets which the farmers on the Continent have. If a farmers is taken off the land what do we do with him? Put him on the labour exchange?
We were talking specifically about rather elderly people.
What elderly people will get will not enable them to go to Spain on their holidays.
99.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries what steps he is taking to improve the price available within the EEC for apples and pears.
Pending this country's accession to the EEC, there are no steps I can take to influence the price available within the EEC for apples and pears.
Can the Minister say what is the position with regard to apples within the EEC?
I think they are adequately supplied both with apples and pears.
Is it not true that the British have said that there is no future for British apples or pears within the EEC? Can we take it that the position is likely to be the same here?
I do not know what the British have said.
Surely the Minister knows what the British Ministry of Agriculture are doing on these matters which are of vital importance.
Mr. Belton
Is the Minister aware that in Holland they are paying people to dump their apples and to get rid of their orchards?
There is overproduction.
Mr. Belton
They are undercut by the Italians. The only people who can sell apples on the Continent are the Italians.
Deputy Bruton asked me whether I would take steps to improve the price of apples and pears within the EEC. Obviously, I cannot.
Mr. Belton
I asked my question on the Minister's reply to a supplementary.
The Minister could make representations.
100.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if Ireland will have free access to the French lamb market on accession to the EEC; and, if not, what steps he is taking to obtain such access at the earliest possible date after accession.
There is so far no common organisation of the market for sheep and lamb in the EEC. During the transitional period tariffs on intra-Community trade will be progressively abolished but member States may in certain circumstances retain some national control measures.
We understand that proposals for setting up a common organisation of the sheep and lamb market are under consideration in the Community at present, and we are keeping in touch with developments in this matter.
Is it not the case that the Minister answered a question here last week to the effect that Britain will probably be able to keep her quota restriction on our potatoes because there is no common policy on potatoes? If that is the case, surely a parallel position exists in relation to lambs on the French market since there is no common policy there either. In view of that, surely the Minister's statement in the House that there would not be restrictions on exports of French lamb was quite wrong because the French could, if they wished, retain their quota after we have joined?
The Deputy is probably right. In the absence of any determined programme for sheep and lambs, it is probably inaccurate to say that there will be no restriction whatever. Probably it will be possible for the French to operate some form of restrictions.
This is a red letter day in the House. A Fianna Fáil Minister has admitted that he said something wrong.
I think I was wrong.
101.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if transport taxes and excessive border formalities operated by some national Governments within the EEC operate as a block to agricultural trade within the EEC; and if he has made any representations in the matter.
The general aim in the Community is to eliminate trade barriers and to reduce to a minimum any formalities which hinder trade. While the Commission has been active in this connection, certain obstacles to trade still persist. We shall be in a better position to tackle these remaining obstacles when we are a member of the Community.
Is the Minister aware that there are particularly onerous border formalities on exports to Italy and will he consider this question at an early date in order to prevent our exports being interfered with?
Can the Deputy give me particulars of any instance in which our exports are interfered with?
Not at the moment but when we are in.
Could the Deputy give me particulars of any conceivable instance in the future in which these border difficulties will inhibit our activities in any way?
If we are exporting cattle or some other agricultural product as a Member of the EEC and if we have to pay something like 30 per cent to meet border administrative costs that will hit us very hard.
Questions were answered in the European Parliament fairly recently on the distortion of competition in the agricultural sector as a result of taxes and controls at the frontiers. The Commission summarised their stand as follows: taxes with an effect equivalent to a customs duty; the Commission is at present proceeding to a general inventory and is intervening in cases of irregularities. Secondly, formalities at the frontiers; they are not automatically illicit, on condition that they do not cause delays or distortions. The Commission is, however, trying to obtain the suppression of these formalities. Lastly, controls at the frontiers; discriminatory controls are illicit and the Commission does not hesitate to intervene, if necessary.
Are there not difficulties in regard to agricultural products going from France into Germany?
If there is an artificial distortion of agricultural prices and trade the Commission feel that they should intervene at that stage.
The country concerned can always say that there is no such distortion.
It will then be a matter for the Commission to direct them.
They could be directing them for a very long time.
102.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries the likely effect of EEC membership on imports to this country of fruit pulp; and his policy for the preparation of the soft fruit industry for EEC conditions.
The EEC regulations require that following our accession to the Community our present quantitative restrictions on the import of fruit pulp must be removed. Customs duties on these products will have to be eliminated in five equal annual steps during the transitional period vis-à-vis other member States and aligned to the Common Customs Tariff (CCT) during the same period in the case of third countries. In the case of horticultural products the first adjustment of tariffs need not be made until 1st January, 1974. This will afford the soft fruit industry an extra period for gradual adjustment to full EEC conditions.
Would the Minister answer the second part of the question?
If the Deputy is suggesting that some type of State export board should be set up for the handling of soft fruits I think this would be unacceptable in EEC conditions.
The Minister should say what his policy is. He has not given us any indication as to whether he has a policy on the soft fruit industry at all.
The Minister may not realise it, but he has in fact said that should there be free importation of fruit crops from the Continent there would be no question of the survival of the soft fruit industry here.
The Deputy is being unduly pessimistic.
I am being factual, because I have been involved in this for the last few years.
When Deputy Bruton and Deputy Tully talk about the absence of a policy in this matter, they must be aware that the production of soft fruits is, as I think I have already said in reply to an earlier question, done mainly by contract with firms within the country, and this, if you want to call it that, is the way the industry operates.
The Minister is not up to date. That was the system a few years ago, but that is not happening now.
103.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if he intends to press for adoption by the EEC of a common policy for potatoes.
104.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if he intends to press for the adoption by the EEC of a common policy for mushrooms.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take questions Nos. 103 and 104 together.
The EEC has not so far made provision for a common organisation for the market in table potatoes. The matter is understood to be under consideration by the Commission but no developments are expected until next year when it is understood applicant countries will be consulted.
The Community has no common policy on mushrooms.
Developments in the Community of a common policy for these commodities will be kept under review.
Do the Government favour the adoption of a common policy in relation to these two commodities?
It is likely that there will be a common policy in relation to potatoes, if the Deputy is asking me for an opinion, and that in the matter of production and competition on equal terms it will be a very competitive position.
Does the Minister favour the adoption of a common policy?
It depends on what the common policy is.
A common organisation of the market which would provide international prices.
There is no common policy between the existing Six, and if there is not when we enter the Common Market, we ourselves will have a voice in the formulation of any policy that follows. In the negotiating of that common policy it will be our business to see that we get the policy that suits us best.
105.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries what will be the effect on Ireland of the adoption by the EEC of the draft implementing regulations for a common policy for liquid milk.
Policy on liquid milk is one of the matters being discussed this week in Brussels in connection with the negotiations for Ireland's entry into the EEC. The outcome of the discussions will be indicated in the White Paper to be published on the subject of Ireland's accession to the European Communities.
When will the White Paper be published?
I do not know.
Would the Minister consider making this information in relation to liquid milk available as soon as possible and not waiting until the White Paper, in view of the uncertainty of the publication date of the White Paper?
This topic is only under discussion in Brussels at the present time. I would have to know in advance what would be the outcome.
We would like to know in advance, before the vote takes place.
I cannot anticipate what will be the outcome of discussions that are now going on in Brussels.
We would not ask that.
I have just been asked that.
I did not ask that. I asked the Minister to let us have the information as soon as it is available.
I must have misunderstood the Deputy.
106.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if it is likely that physical distances from the depots of the EEC beef, milk and grain intervention agencies in Ireland will mean that some farmers will get appreciably less for their produce than the basic intervention price in glut conditions.
Obviously produce which has to be transported a considerable distance to the point of sale, whether it is the market or intervention centre, will have to bear higher transport costs than produce from an area close to the point of sale. However, in the existing Community only a limited proportion of total production is sold to intervention agencies and on Ireland's entry into the EEC our aim must be to sell as little as possible to those agencies. The best returns will be obtainable on the Community's markets and it is by selling on those markets that Irish agriculture will make the most of the opportunities which EEC membership will provide.
Is it not the case under the regulations that for a person to sell goods to an intervention agency he must sell a very large quantity and that no individual producer would be able to sell that quantity; therefore, these will have to be channelled through wholesalers who would then sell them to the intervention agency? In other words, the wholesaler will be getting a whack out of it.
No, this is not quite so. The minimum loss for intervention purposes and for intervention purchases is, in the case of butter, one metric ton; in the case of skimmed powder it is 20 tons, and in the case of wheat, 50 tons. These are not extraordinarily high quantities.
What about beef?
I have not got that information. I do not anticipate any difficulty in that field.
You never know how the market will go.
That is true.
107.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if he intends to press for the adoption within the EEC of a common policy for mutton and lamb.
The question of the introduction of a common policy for mutton and lamb within the EEC is a matter for the members of the Community. I understand that the introduction of a common organisation for mutton and lamb has been under examination by the Commission of the European Community and we are keeping in touch with developments in this matter.
Would the Minister agree to give this very high priority in view of its possible effects on our lamb exports to France?
Yes. We have a very active interest in the continental European market, as the House knows.
108.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries what plans he has for the development of a more orderly system of marketing for mutton and lamb in preparation for EEC conditions.
The export marketing of mutton and lamb is a commercial function of the meat export industry. My Department's function in this matter is to operate the mutton and lamb export guarantee scheme so as to enable meat exporters to pay reasonable prices to sheep and lamb producers.
It is of course a function of CBF to assist the marketing of mutton and lamb—as well as of live cattle and beef—by promotional measures and market investigations. At present they are undertaking a survey of the marketing of our mutton and lamb in Britain.
Is it not the case that CBF is purely a promotional body and that we need a marketing body in this field as well?
That may be so.
Would the Minister agree to give that matter careful consideration in view of our entry to the EEC?
The Deputy is aware of the limitations that any such marketing body would have, of the same kind that would apply to marketing bodies like Bord Bainne and the Pigs and Bacon Commission. However, within those limits, it is an idea that is well worth thinking about.
It could be started up now with State funds so that it would be in operation——
I do not know whether it could or not. I think it is for the industry itself——
We have got to be prepared to use sharp practice——
I beg the Deputy's pardon.
We must be prepared to twist the regulations as much as we can if we are to be successful in the EEC. There is no use in being too gentlemanly about it.
It is not a question of being too gentlemanly; it is a question of the industry itself handling its own business in the best possible way. In regard to exports of beef, that is an example of how the industry looked after itself and did very well. There is no reason why this industry should not do the same.
109.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries what changes are being made in cattle breeding policy in preparation for EEC membership.
On entry into the EEC Britain should continue to be our main market for cattle and beef and for this market our present breeds of cattle are generally suitable. At the same time, trials and experiments are taking place with new breeds imported from Britain and the Continent with a view to adapting our breeding herd, if necessary, to changing market requirements.