Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 16 Dec 1971

Vol. 257 No. 12

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Garda Cork Meeting.

92.

Mr. L'Estrange

asked the Minister for Justice if he is aware of a report of a meeting of Munster gardaí held in Mitchelstown, County Cork, recently where they expressed dismay at the failure of the courts to afford them the protection to which they were entitled as an unarmed force; that they held that there had been about 20 cases of possession of arms in the past 12 months where suspensory sentences had been given; that they criticised decisions of a High Court judge in a case involving men on armed robbery charges and that evidence had been withheld from the court; and what action he intends to take in the matters.

93.

Mr. L'Estrange

asked the Minister for Justice if he is aware of the report of a Garda meeting in Mitchelstown, County Cork, on 6th December, 1971, questioning the statement of the Taoiseach on a radio programme on 12th November, 1971, that any offences committed would be prosecuted with the full rigour of the law, and giving numerous examples of where this was not happening; that it was also stated that gardaí are in many cases being prevented from pursuing the terms of their oath and were being compelled to break the oath; that this was extremely bad for the morale of the force and the good of the public which it serves; and what action he intends to take in the matter.

94.

Mr. L'Estrange

asked the Minister for Justice if he is aware that at a meeting of gardaí in Mitchelstown, County Cork, as reported in the daily press it was stated that gardaí were being hampered by the fact that the courts, Dáil Éireann and the Department of Justice could decide that sentences could be reduced or negated; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Mr. O'Malley

With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Question Nos. 92, 93 and 94 together.

I regret that, as reported, some members of the Garda Síochána appear to have a sense of grievance relating to robberies and the unauthorised possession of firearms.

It is not for me to defend the decisions of the courts which appear to be disapproved of by some gardaí but I can give a categoric assurance that there is not the slightest truth in any allegation that the Government as a body, or I myself as Miniser, have at any time sought to interfere with the prosecution of these crimes.

Mr. L'Estrange

Is the Minister aware that a former Minister of the Fianna Fáil Government stated that instructions were given to them to turn a blind eye? Is he further aware that when the Garda go to all the trouble in the world to bring criminals to court they are let off scot free by the Judiciary? In Dundalk recently four armed men were charged and found guilty but only got two weeks. Is the Minister further aware that a justice, whose name I will not mention here, when two armed men were brought before him and were convicted, let them off?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This question does not concern court cases. These questions deal with Garda complaints.

Mr. L'Estrange

Is the Minister aware that the gardaí are frustrated and that they have stated that they are no longer allowed to honour the oath they have taken?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This is making an argument.

Mr. L'Estrange

All that is in the four questions I asked. Are the Government and the Minister prepared to stand behind the Garda when they do their duty and see that cases are prosecuted, irrespective of politics, without fear or favour?

Mr. O'Malley

There is not the slightest doubt that I in particular and the Government in general will stand four square behind the Garda in carrying out their duties. I will not interfere—I am afraid this is what is being suggested to me—with the independence of the Judiciary and the independent exercise by them of their discretion. I may privately feel from time to time that a particular decision may not be the decision that I personally would have given but at the same time I must preserve, as Minister for Justice, the independence of the Judiciary in spite of any allegations or otherwise that may be made.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): Would the Minister agree that the general effect of the statements issued following the Mitchelstown meeting is that the gardaí are dissatisfied with the support they are getting from the Minister and his Department? Is he aware that in reference to a particular case mentioned by Deputy L'Estrange, an armed robbery in Cork which had no political significance, they are very dissatisfied that a man was given a four years sentence by a judge who stated that he did not consider him to be the ringleader, that he was giving half the sentence he would ordinarily give? The other two men involved who shot at the gardaí had their case transferred to the Central Criminal Court in Dublin, the State case was presented——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is now discussing a decision of the courts.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): The two men concerned were given the benefit of the Probation of Offenders Act and had not even their driving licence suspended.

Mr. O'Malley

I do not want to get involved in a discussion of the merits of the particular case. I understand they were given six years penal servitude which was suspended. I do not want to be taken as saying anything one way or the other. I may happen to have a particular point of view but, in fairness, Deputies should not seek to make me express opinions.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): I want to be perfectly fair to the Minister. I am not seeking to hold him responsible for judicial decisions. I am seeking to hold him responsible for the way the facts of this particular case were presented to the judge in Green Street.

Mr. O'Malley

I have no responsibility with regard to prosecutions and the Deputy is well aware of this.

Mr. L'Estrange

In Question No. 94 I stated that the gardaí stated they were being hampered by Dáil Éireann, the Minister for Justice and the Department of Justice and the fact that they interfered with sentences. I know of people who have recently been let out of jail by the Minister. Why has he authority, after the courts making their decisions, to allow those people out?

Mr. O'Malley

I receive a large number of petitions every year and I have to examine every one of them. Many of those come from Deputies on all sides of this House. I may add that I am very strongly pressed and I believe I have acted with considerable reluctance in regard to these petitions. I only grant a very small number of them, after getting the views of the judge and the Garda.

Mr. L'Estrange

Is it not quite true that the Minister let out a thug who got 12 months and he has been charged with at least six offences since?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am calling Question No. 95.

Mr. L'Estrange

The Minister will not answer because he does not want to tell the truth.