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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 23 Mar 1972

Vol. 259 No. 15

Membership of EEC: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by the Taoiseach on 21st March, 1972:
That the Dáil takes note of the White Paper—The Accession of Ireland to the European Communities—and the Supplement thereto.
Debate resumed on the following amendment:
1. To add to the Motion the following:—
"and deplores the inadequacy of the negotiations described therein and rejects the terms set out".
—(Deputy Keating.)

Last night I said the bulk of what I wanted to say on this motion but it is essential to draw the matters together. About 40 years ago I went to the Blasket Islands one summer and there were 60 families living there at that time. About 15 years ago the whole population was taken off the Blaskets and taken over to Dún Chaoin. Of course Dún Chaoin is now disappearing rapidly and an effort has been made to close the national school there. At that time there was a national school on the Blasket Islands.

This is a real instance of what will happen if we join the Common Market. This island will be a greater Blasket. It will be deserted by the people and the population will drop away again. It will be down to what was forecast 30 years ago by Dr. Roy Geary, 2,500,000 people. Of course it will be a very elegant ranch—I suppose the finest in the world. The big farmers, as the Minister so glibly said, and the small farmers will get the same rate but of course the small farmers will not have enough to live on. Since they pay no income tax, if this Government remain in office the big farmers will become wealthier and wealthier. We will have a divided community of the haves and have-nots.

Deputy Flanagan quite rightly drew attention to the position in Laois/ Offaly. As I said before, Laois/Offaly is a super-depressed area and if we go into the Common Market it will be much worse. Let me give an example of what will happen. We have 100,000 unemployed today because of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement which was made by this Government. We are exactly half-way through the reduction of the tariffs and we will abolish the tariffs completely on industrial goods in five years if we go into the EEC. I cannot understand what has happened to the two wings of the great Sinn Féin Party, the party that killed and buried the "Mickey Mousers" of the old Irish National Party in 1918. Why the sell out? At least the men who sold out in 1800 got large sums of money by present-day standards. They got titles and honours. There was bribery on a wholesale scale. It is quite obvious that there is no bribery in this, except the expenditure of a great deal of our resources on the effort by the Government to get us into Europe.

The Government are keen on this sell-out because of a world movement towards free trade. Any day now that movement may go into reverse. It has continued for an extraordinarily long period of time, roughly speaking over 20 years. On the whole, especially in view of the way the United States behaved up to a certain period, it has brought a great deal of prosperity to the world. As I read out last night from the British Ambassador in Paris, the European Economic Community has come to a standstill and this is the argument which is now being put to the British as to why they should go in.

One reason why the Government are so keen to take us into Europe is that they are completely barren of ideas. They have been so long in office that the few able men among them are tired, and the bulk of the Ministers are children, as I said before. Yesterday the Minister for Finance talked at considerable length about the great arrangements that were made in Brussels when he was there a few weeks ago. Let us be clear about it. There is no subject I was fonder of when I was a student than foreign exchanges. I often regretted that I did not specialise in them as distinct from specialising in the economics of agriculture. Of course at that time all the talk was about agriculture. If I had known the way monetary matters would go I would have specialised in great detail——

Time enough yet.

I am a bit old now. I keep my eye on the matter. We were told three months ago by the central bankers and all the people who took part in the discussions at Washington that they had fixed up the foreign exchanges. It took only a couple of months for the whole edifice to be in ruins. What is being attempted in the Common Market at present, to have fixed exchange rates, is not possible. It is contrary to a natural law. The natural law is that currencies exchange for one another in proportion to their internal purchasing power and therefore if the money of one country, like ours, is depreciating very rapidly you cannot, through time, maintain its parity with other currencies if they are maintaining their purchasing power. This is a well-known theory which was thought up by Professor Gustav Cassel of Sweden in the twenties when there were large movements of currencies.

This idea in Europe at present of fixing the rate of currencies and allowing them to move by 1 per cent or 2 per cent only is all rubbish. Anybody who suggests that you can get rid of gold from the international monetary system is an idiot as I said last night about certain other people. Gold has lasted for 2,500 years for currency purposes. It has lasted ever since it was suggested by Aristotle in Greece as the basis for international currency. Of course the other great Greek philosopher, Plato, took the point of view which the Americans have been trying to sell to the world, that currency should be paper. Plato had the common sense to say that the paper currency should only circulate inside one country. He did not suggest that it should be the reserve currency for transactions between countries. He was a sensible man.

I cannot persuade the so-called specialists in currency to see common sense. The facts of life will teach them common sense. There is no doubt about the urge which the countries of the Common Market have to fix the relative values of their currencies and in which they have now apparently been joined by Britain if we are to believe what was said following the meeting between Monsieur Pompidou and Mr. Heath. The English have departed from the American system. They were with the Americans. Their sterling was reserve currency with the dollar until it could no longer bear the weight of it. They had not sufficient resources. Therefore, they withdrew sterling in effect as a reserve currency. They have now gone a step further. There is a special reason for this; this is the fact that their external reserves have increased enormously and therefore they can move; they are not caught. They are joining with the French in the attitude that gold had to be maintained as the real basis for currency in international trade. For myself, I would rather trust gold than any piece of paper; in other words, I would rather trust gold than any man and especially a country like the United States which has a deficit of 30 billion dollars this year in its Budget. So far as spending money goes they leave even our present Government far behind, although I think our Government are learning rapidly from them.

Those who believe in gold as the basis of international money have had to endure a great deal of rubbish in recent years. At one time I spoke a great deal about the subject to my students but I have given it up for some years now because I could not see any hope of making any impression on those in charge of the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank. The Fund is supposed to be a bank and the Bank is supposed to be a fund, I am told, but that does not surprise me. Nothing surprises me about this kind of carry-on when you call something by one name and it is in fact something else.

In spite of what the Minister for Finance said yesterday I take it that even the most inexpert people can now read between the lines and are now aware of what has happened to this paper system, paper gold, and so on. The most important thing by far if we go into the Common Market is the promise made to us that there would be more employment, that there will be 50,000 more people at work in industry. They will leave agriculture, presumably, and go into industry. Anybody who believes this would believe anything, just as the same is true of anybody who believes we shall get £40 million or £30 million a year from the Agricultural Fund. I want to be blunt about this: I should much rather see Dr. Paisley as Taoiseach here than see us in the Common Market. At least he has voted against going into the Common Market in the British House of Commons and to that extent he is on my side, or I am on his side, whichever way you like.

I cannot understand what kind of poltroons are in the two big parties in this House to have swallowed this, hook, line and sinker. The old Sinn Féin Party and the two branches of it which existed after the Civil War, stood on their own feet. From where did the two big parties get this death wish? What is the cause of it? Is it a fact that the older men in the Government have been there so long that they are tired and worn out mentally and the others are so inexpert that they listen to the bureaucrats and nothing else?

There is one country to which I should like to compare us since we were far superior to them prior to the second World War. I am referring to Norway. The Common Market and the Common Man, this very useful document circulated to us, shows that the average income per person employed in Norway in 1968 was 4,100 dollars and the average income per person employed in the Irish Republic was 2,400 dollars. This is the exact reverse of the pre-war position. We get various explanations such as that the Norwegians had shipping, that they had worthwhile fishery fleets and, above all, that they had forests and that the price of timber went up much more than any other product after the war. The explanation does not matter: obviously we have lost. We are always being told to compare our incomes with the incomes of the countries in the Common Market. Let me compare that 2,400 dollars with the 4,000 in Norway, which is not in the Common Market and which, according to rumour, will not go in. Did not one of the most senior politicians there resign on the issue of the Common Market? If we believe what we are now told, the Common Market referendum in Norway will be lost in that the vote will not favour going in. For this reason I hope our referendum will not be held until after the various referenda have been held all over western Europe in the next three or four months. Otherwise, you will have the position mentioned here yesterday. Suppose France votes “No,” and the English Parliament say “Yes,” and we vote “Yes,” where are we then? Suppose Norway and Denmark vote “No.” There can be any combination among these five. I am glad to believe, as I have already said, that our referendum will not be held for quite a while.

About a month ago I asked a simple question in the House as to why the Government did not accept the offer of General de Gaulle of associate membership of the Common Market. The question was ruled out of order on the grounds that it contained argument. Where is the argument in it? I think it was a disgrace to rule it out of order and it was an outrage on the House. I protested about it at the time. There is no argument in the question which was a straightforward one. I got no reply to that question. This is not the first question about Foreign Affairs matters to which I did not get a reply. I asked a number of questions about the bilateral trade agreements and these were not answered either on the grounds that the great gentlemen in the Department of Foreign Affairs would have to do some work on the matter. I made a very appropriate remark at that time when I asked if they were afraid to dirty their minds with a little honest work. These questions have never been answered.

For example, I asked on how many occasions were the Germans in breach of their bilateral trade agreements with us. The only man from whom I got an honest reply was Deputy Blaney. On one occasion, when they refused to accept some cattle, I asked if that was the only occasion, and he said no, it was not the only occasion. What are we afraid of? Are we just a lot of little shivering children that we cannot stand up and be counted? I despise cowardice; I have always despised it in myself any time I have seen it. We had another example of this yesterday when the Ceann Comhairle informed Deputy Fox that he could ask his question today if the Department agreed. He did not say if the Minister agreed.

We cannot discuss that matter at this stage.

I only wish to make a passing reference to it. The Ceann Comhairle may not have meant anything by the remark but it was important to me. Surely he should have said "if the Minister agrees". There is too much of this sort of thing.

The Ceann Comhairle gave his reasons for the disallowance.

I have no wish to argue the matter but would merely say that the word is not appropriate. Without any difficulty, I can demonstrate that it was not appropriate but I shall not pursue the matter except to indicate that it was in the same category as the refusal to accept my question about General de Gaulle. I got no reply but when I was passing the postal window at 2.55 p.m. I found the letter addressed to me although the question had been put down ten days previously. This is no way to treat Members of the House.

We are not discussing procedure. What is being discussed is the motion before the House and the Labour Party's amendment to it.

I am suggesting that there is and has been continuously a specific attempt by the Government to stifle serious criticism of the effort they are making to take us into Europe. In 1961 I accused the Press of this country of a conspiracy of silence on the argument against joining the Common Market. I am glad to be able to say that one newspaper, the Irish Independent, made their column available to me and I contributed a long article to the paper. What I said then has been vindicated. I said that Britain would not go in. I also said that Mr. Lemass was not doing a bad job, that he was succeeding in making our industrialists more efficient by threatening them with this big stick but the matter has gone on for too long. I hope it goes on even longer. There was no air of reality in this debate until Deputy Oliver Flanagan spoke yesterday.

The Deputy cannot be serious.

I am very serious. The Minister may smile but if ever I wanted a good example of grass roots thinking, of worthwhile thinking, I would listen to Deputy Flanagan and not to the type of baby economics delivered by the Taoiseach.

We are told that it is of the greatest importance that the people are given clear and precise information of what membership of the Community means for the country because it is for the people to decide this issue. What have the Government done to supply the people with this precise information? Nothing. Continuously they have made available prejudiced and one-sided information. If we have any doubt as to how this can happen, let us look at England where the Labour Government produced one White Paper and the Conservatives a different one on the same subject.

There is much talk of what will be the position regarding the price of beef cattle. I shall make a forecast. Yesterday, in answer to an interruption that was not very bright, I said that dropped calves are now fetching almost £60 each because of the prospects of entering the Common Market. What about the 10 cwt beasts that are being sold at £140 each? Are they to be killed and eaten in the Common Market? That is not the case. It is suggested that the British Government are easing off the situation and allowing food prices to rise so that, if Britain joins, the jolt will not be too great. If we join, our people are in for a very nasty surprise. I would much prefer that we should stand on our own feet as we have been doing more or less for the past 50 years. Why are we needed in Europe? I do not understand the effort being made by Brussels to bring us in but if I might express a suspicion, they want an aircraft carrier far out in the Atlantic and we are the only one that is available. Regardless of what the Government may say about defence commitments and so on, these will come afterwards. I cannot see what other value we could be to Europe other than as an aircraft carrier or a site for intercontinental ballistic missiles. We have had visits from various EEC commissioners, Dr. Mansholt, Signor Spinelli and many others. What is all the fuss about?

I do not know why the Government conducted the negotiations in the way they have done. As I have said, I thought there was an agreement between the British and ourselves that they would negotiate toughly and we would indicate we were delighted to go in and would accept all the obligations. Muna bhfuil ach pocán gabhair agat, bí i lar an aonaigh leis. One does not sell the goat by saying that he is a worthless animal. One says he is a fine animal and describes him in glowing terms. We have not sold this country to Europe in the way we should have sold it. Therefore, the terms of our entry are very bad and I pay no heed to this talk of five years guarantee for this or that. We were for 40 years in the common market of Great Britain and Ireland before it started to bite. We must remember that the famine occurred only in the 40s of the last century and, on the whole, this country, relative to Britain, was in as good a position population wise as it was in the year 1800. From then on and especially from 1850 to 1875, although our farmers who are engaged in extensive farming did well, and the Land League was not formed until the dreadful depression from 1875 onwards, the population decreased. Anybody who thinks that a country without a population is without any significance should begin to look at reality. I am grateful to the Minister for Labour and Social Welfare for having listened to me.

I do not propose to follow the last speaker along the many avenues he pursued regarding whether we should join the Common Market. I shall merely state my own views and what have been my own views for many years regarding our integration with Europe. Closer integration with our colleagues in Europe is a desirable and worthwhile objective and for the first time in our history we have an opportunity, not to join some domineering block, but to become equal partners in an association which I think had to come about ultimately. I know there is not sufficient time for all speakers to contribute to the debate and to deal with it in the manner which they feel it deserves. I will endeavour in the time available to me to relate my remarks to how I feel membership will affect the Departments of Labour and Social Welfare, without attempting to go into any detail. I would like to refer to a recent debate where it was said that we were not, in these Departments, gearing ourselves or taking sufficient interest. I want to say at the outset that there has been considerable consultation between the officials of both my Departments in Brussels in relation to the matters which will directly affect us in these Departments when we become members.

We have already done most of the preliminary work necessary in preparation for the different matters that will be of direct concern to us. As Minister for Labour, I am particularly concerned with worker-training. Our economic success will, to a great extent, depend in future on the extent to which we can provide training to update and extend the skills of our industrial workers and to meet the needs of this technological age. Nobody disputes that. It is only right that I should be concerned with matters in relation to Common Market policy and Treaties, as they affect us. There will be pressing need to ensure that workers leaving agriculture or declining industries will be retrained for industrial employment with the minimum delay. Worker-training is one of the areas in which we should benefit substantially when we join the EEC.

I am only concerned with factual matters as they have been provided for in the existing regulations. The resources of the European Social Fund will be available to assist us in the expansion of our retraining and resettlement schemes. Already 1,300,000 workers are benefiting from expenditure from the fund on retraining and resettlement schemes. We are not talking, as Deputy O'Donovan would have suggested, as if everything was likely to happen in the future. In retrospect, we have a good deal of knowledge of what the workings of these things are. I am deriving knowledge from and basing arrangements on matters as they have been working, and as we will have to face them in accordance with the letter of the regulations. For that reason I see tremendous hope in the practical assistance that is available to us for training workers.

The European Social Fund was originally established by the Community to improve employment opportunities and raise the standard of living of workers. The fund has recently been reorganised. As Deputies know, and as some Deputies have already said, it has been reorganised so as to make it a more positive instrument in formulating and bringing about a policy capable of coping with future economic and social changes. We must always expect changes. The Community and the people who form it are not a lot of simpletons. They are people who are capable of maintaining the necessary flexibility that progress demands, as it does in any Parliament. It is envisaged that expenditure from the fund will be of the order of 50 million dollars this year, increasing to 250 million dollars a year when it is fully in operation. This is a very considerable sum of money by any standard. Nobody can denigrate the importance of this fund. We stand to benefit considerably from it.

Among the objectives of the Community are the promotion throughout the Community of the harmonious development of economic activity— this is what the EEC is all about— continued and balanced expansion, an increase in stability, an accelerated raising of the standard of living. This is why the Community came into being in the first instance. This is why they continue at an accelerated pace. As with any other bloc or association of nations they will have their peaks and valleys, subject to world conditions to some extent, but certainly the member states must stand to suffer less from any world recession than if they were standing out alone.

Assistance from this fund may be given towards eliminating long-term structural unemployment, underemployment and training manpower, as well as operations that tend to give employment to disabled workers, older workers and younger workers. This will include expenditure on training and retraining, resettlement, career guidance, income maintenance, the elimination of obstacles which make access to employment difficult for handicapped workers and the promotion of better conditions in regions of slow development. These things are all of major importance to us, particularly, in the Department of Labour.

Assistance from the fund is granted at the rate of 50 per cent of the public expenditure on projects of training, retraining and resettlement of workers. We do not stress sufficiently the importance of that very tangible benefit for which we, in the Department, are already preparing to submit our application. In simple language, this all means that we will have a great deal more money available for expanding our training, retraining and resettlement schemes. The relevant Community Regulations have been examined in detail in my Department. Work is proceeding on the drawing-up of an application for aid from the fund. I wanted to say that in place of some of the statements made nobody, seemingly, was making any definite move towards providing for the benefits which will undoubtedly accrue in this respect. The whole range of training and retraining will be co-ordinated and fitted into an overall plan for submission to the Commission with our application. An application will be submitted to the Commission in good time, so that we may be able to obtain the maximum benefit from the fund as from the date of our accession.

It is too early to put an exact figure on the amount of benefit we will receive from the fund, but it will be substantial. It will be based on the amount we spend on projects and schemes which will be submitted and approved. It is clear that the money which AnCO are spending on training centres will qualify for recoupment from the fund. This is important. AnCO have four training centres at the present time. There is a new centre in Dublin. The Cork centre is due to open shortly and the Gweedore Gaeltacht centre is due to open this year. That will be six centres. Then there are three mobile centres. We refer to them as mobile centres although in the strict sense they are not mobile. Perhaps they could more appropriately be called itinerant centres. They are not permanently established in any particular place. These centres are at Athlone, Tralee and Ballina, and they do a specific job of training.

I mention these things to show that this type of training is well and truly established. A considerable number of workers have already been trained. It is necessary that we should make rapid progress in the future and we have planned to do this. In that context we stand to obtain definite, tangible benefits from membership of the EEC. We may speculate as to what is good and bad in membership, as to what we may obtain and what we may lose. I am talking about something which is available to us and for which we are already making preparations. We need considerably more money if we are to accelerate the pace of training. Let us face the fact that the many millions we require are not available from our present resources, and to get access to the necessary moneys is in itself something which would justify our membership.

A resettlement allowances scheme is very important in the context of the changes in industrial methods, new industries or the decline of industries, that will inevitably result from membership. The resettlement allowances scheme under the National Manpower Service which will promote this geographical mobility of workers as well as a careers information service will also benefit from this fund.

There is also freedom of movement for workers within the EEC, but we have negotiated a five-year transitional period in this respect which means that the present system of permits for workers coming here for employment will continue for five years. One can immediately see the need for that, in that some people fear we might have many technically qualified persons coming here to take advantage of jobs of that type for which we might not have sufficient people trained. We do issue permits at the moment for persons of this calibre coming to this country when they are not available here. That system will continue until 1st January, 1978.

Apres nous le deluge. We will be all right in our time.

The Deputy should not use that language.

A permit is not normally issued where there is a suitably qualified Irish worker available to take up the position. The Government have negotiated this arrangement because of the relatively high level of unemployment and to allay any anxiety about the employment situation during a period when Irish industry would be adapting itself to free trade conditions. We should be in a position to use the transition period, with the assistance I have already mentioned, to update our skills and to supply the labour market with the necessary skilled labour force which would obviate any worry about the future after 1978.

Nationals of the EEC member states who move within the Community and seek work or take up employment must be given equality with nationals of the host country in the filling of vacancies and are guaranteed full equality of treatment in other matters relating to their jobs. There are also vacancy clearance arrangements within the EEC whereby supply and demand of labour are kept in contact with each other. This involves the issue of monthly statements listing people seeking work in any of the other member states and also listing offers of employment to a European office and to other member states. There is a very significant limitation here—and this I should like to emphasise—that offers of employment refer only to vacancies which cannot be filled from the national labour market; in other words, if we advertise or notify existing vacancies here they are only those which we cannot fill ourselves. There is nothing seriously at fault there.

An important point is that a member state can request a suspension or a suspension in part of these free movement arrangements if they feel that there is or there is likely to be a threat to living standards, or to employment in a region or a particular occupation. Free movement does not apply to the public service. There are also limitations on the ground of security and of health. Therefore, the safeguards in regard to free movement of people are adequate and satisfactory and, from the point of view of the Department of Labour, most beneficial.

The question we must ask here is to what extent this right of workers to move freely within the Community will affect this country. I do not expect that there will be any great influx of workers into Ireland for the simple reason that workers move to the areas where most work is available. I suppose that is fairly evident to everybody. Experience shows that for a person seeking work the attraction is towards the centres where there is full employment, in other words, where there are more jobs than people to fill them. We are unlikely to reach that happy situation in Ireland for some time to come. Here I would say that, despite the best estimates that can be made, I believe that once we get moving towards full employment, nothing succeeds like success. That is my own personal view founded on some experience.

As indicated in the White Paper, the creation of a net additional 50,000 jobs over the transitional period is envisaged. This should lead to a progressive reduction in unemployment and involuntary emigration. I use the word "involuntary" in relation to emigration, because I suppose there will always be people who wish to emigrate. So long as they are not driven to emigrate for economic reasons, then we can say we have not an emigration problem. It is interesting that we should be talking about this question of emigration now at a time when emigration has been running at its lowest ever figure and, we must admit, creating problems that one did not anticipate a short time ago.

I should like now to say a few words about industrial relations. We have all been concerned with certain areas in which we will be obliged to comply with Community law and many people, trade unionists in particular, apparently believe that we may have to align our industrial relations system with the type of system operating in the EEC member states. I should like to take this opportunity to assure these people that this will not be the case. There are no binding Community instruments in the industrial relations area and, because of the diversity of the industrial relations systems in the various countries, I cannot see any major changes in this field; in other words, we will be free to pursue our own system. I would hope, of course, that as members of the enlarged Community we would take from the Community all that is good in order to bring about better industrial relations. Nothing is imposed on us and we are under no obligation to adopt any Community law in particular circumstances.

The Government have examined the alternatives to full membership of an enlarged Community, an enlarged Community which will include Britain. It is rather surprising at this stage to find people accusing us of not having examined the alternatives. We did not apply for membership yesterday. It is a long time since our application was submitted and surely it has had sufficiently serious consideration by everybody by this. Those who argue against membership have had plenty of time to prepare a proper case. They do not seem to have done this and, in the absence of a proper case, one can only conclude that they have not bothered.

We are satisfied there is no realistic alternative. Deputy O.J. Flanagan said last night that we have always said there was no alternative. In actual fact, there are several alternatives, but there is no realistic alternative compatible with the objective of increasing employment and improving the standard of living. That is the assertion we make. Some opponents to full membership point to the fact that countries like Sweden, Switzerland and Austria are not seeking membership but have applied for trading arrangements; if they are getting free trading in the industrial sphere there is no question of their adhering to the common agricultural policy. This has been answered several times and I think everybody is now familiar with the position; it is absurd to compare the position of countries with less than 4 per cent agricultural exports with our position with approximately 50 per cent exports.

If we were to seek a trading agreement instead of full membership our industry would face free trade competition in any event. Those who talk about associate membership signify to me that they see some good in membership but would prefer to trail behind instead of being full members. These people do not seem to have the faith they should have in our people to play their full part as members.

On the social welfare side, there has been a good deal of misunderstanding about the effect of entrance to the Community on our systems of social security. There is a great variety of social security systems in the member states. Each has a compulsory general system for wage and salary earners up to a certain income for the nine benefits covered by the International Labour Convention on minimum standards of social security. In addition, there are special schemes for certain occupations such as mining and those who are self-employed in farming. Social security contributions and benefits are usually related to incomes. In general, the systems adhere to the insurance principle. Most of them rely on employers' and insured persons' contributions for the bulk of their finances. They draw on the Exchequer to a limited extent only. While there is a broad similarity in scope in the general systems of the Six and the methods of financing them and calculating contributions and benefits, there is no uniformity in the rates of contributions or benefits.

There is no European normal standard of social security to which this country would be obliged to conform as a condition of entry. Under Article 118 of the Treaty, the Commission is required to promote close collaboration between member states in almost all fields of social policy. This is something we should welcome. While the Treaty of Rome does not contain any specific provision for the introduction of a single or uniform system of social security throughout the member states, it does refer to harmonisation and the regulations, as I have pointed out, refer to collaboration. There is, in fact, a gradual trend in the Community towards convergence of the systems of social security and it is expected that this broad tendency towards harmonisation will make itself felt in Ireland after entry.

The Community regulations dealing with the social security of migrant workers are binding on member states and over-ride any reciprocal agreements unless these are specifically provided for; these regulations result from the Community objective of permitting the free movement of labour. They cover all questions arising in regard to social security in the case of wage earners and dependants who move within the Community. They relate to social security benefits for sickness, maternity, invalidity, old age, survivors, whom we refer to as widows and orphans, employment accidents and diseases, death, unemployment and family payments. The latter we call children's allowances. Basically, the objective of the regulations is to ensure that nationals of one member state will not suffer any handicap in acquiring title to and payment of benefit by moving to another member state. Migrants carry their acquired rights to social security with them when they move from one member state to another and, when a claim for benefit is made, insurance in the former country, or countries, is fully reckonable for the purpose of satisfying contribution conditions and, when payment is authorised, it may be made to a person resident in another member state.

The manner in which these objectives are to be achieved is dealt with at length in the regulations. After Ireland accedes to the Community these regulations will replace the existing series of reciprocal arrangements we have with the United Kingdom, the Isle of Man and Northern Ireland. They differ in some respects, but we will have a much better set of reciprocal arrangements as members of the enlarged Community. The present reciprocal arrangements we have do not cover children's allowances. When the new regulations are operative it will be possible for an Irish worker in Britain to be paid British children's allowances for his family in Ireland.

In regard to unemployment, provision is made for full merging of previous insurance. That is, when a worker has, following employment in one state become unemployed in another state. Up to now this existed only in a limited way and there was provision for payment of unemployment benefits for a limited period only to persons who go to seek work in other countries. In other words, in relation to national insurance and the benefits derived from it, one can say that these benefits are interchangeable, payable from one country to another as if they applied to only one country.

I should like to make one point which I think is very important concerning social insurance. It is dealt with in the part of the White Paper which deals with the implications for the Exchequer of entry to the Community. An annual net saving of £25 million to £30 million will result from entry. It is the firm intention of the Government to draw on this substantial sum to cushion, for those in receipt of social welfare payments, especially pensioners, the effects of living costs brought about by any increases in prices of essential commodities as a result of entry to the Common Market.

I wish to repeat what others have said that we do not envisage any significant increase in prices as a result of EEC membership. There have been several wild, distorted allegations made that the cost of living will increase sharply when we join. These allegations are, of course, groundless. The only two products in respect of which significant prices rises are expected are milk and beef and the result will be a very modest rise in the overall cost of living. Moreover, it is important to remember that outside the EEC we will still face the necessity of raising farm prices anyhow in an effort to bring farm incomes up to the level of people in industrial employment. If this is not done by higher prices, it must be done by increased subsidies and the burden of these subsidies must, in turn, raise the cost of living for all taxpayers. That is an important point for the anti-marketeers who would say that we could do all these things outside the Common Market without any serious impact on the taxpayer.

In regard to savings on agricultural subsidies I have the authority of the Government to state that social requirements will be a first charge on savings in this respect. I would hope that the improvements in social welfare rates, the expansion of existing schemes and the introduction of new schemes as outlined in the Third Programme for Social and Economic Development would be accelerated and the day brought nearer when we can achieve that improved position. We have at the moment preliminary arrangements made for bringing in pay related benefits so far as some of our social welfare benefits are concerned. This we would hope to extend to pensions. We recently raised the insurable limit to £1,600. We would hope to abolish that and introduce insurance on a broader scale even for self-employed persons. These things will be brought nearer by our membership of the Common Market and, indeed, our need to harmonise and to collaborate with other countries whose systems admittedly are better than ours. For the nine basic benefits under social security we have a sufficient coverage to justify our association with the other countries. I have already referred to these. There is sickness, maternity, invalidity, old age, survivors, which is widowhood, accident/diseases, death, unemployment and family payments, which are children's allowances. We have the necessary spread of the social security code to justify our membership. I would not say we actually have but we desire to extend and I personally think that the expansion of the scheme and the improvement of rates are things which are being advocated by everybody and the limit of which is set only by the availability of resources.

I hope and I feel confident that the area in which we could show the most rapid advance on becoming a member of the Community would be in a general improvement of our whole social welfare code. There is no mystery about what we require. There is nobody trying to deny that we would like pensions at an earlier age, an increase in the amounts being paid, an extension of some of the schemes that we are already operating and a general improvement in the rates all round. This is something that gives one an exciting interest in the years immediately ahead as far as social security is concerned.

I should like to refute something that has been used in a rather naïve manner for the purpose of making the small farmers of rural Ireland fear what might happen in the Common Market. The phrase "small farmers' dole" is being used which is a phrase I do not like. What is being said is that unemployment assistance will not be payable to small farmers. I should like to repudiate that. There is no such thing as a scheme of small farmers' dole. Unemployment assistance is paid to everybody in the same manner, requiring the same qualifications from small farmers, tailors or butchers. There is no difference. When this reference is made to small farmers' dole people are referring to the method of assessing means which is based on valuation and has nothing to do with the other necessary qualifications of being capable of and available for and genuinely seeking and being unable to find employment.

The Minister cut it out last year.

That is not a relevant statement.

It is relevant.

Absolutely not. We could cut it out anytime, if we liked, or bring it in. The important thing and what I am trying to establish here is that membership of the EEC does not compel or oblige us to do one or the other; we are free to apply it as we wish.

That is quite right. It will not save us from the incompetence of a Fianna Fáil Government.

Deputy FitzGerald will try to prove that any disadvantage will be due to the Fianna Fáil Government. That is obvious even to the children in the street. I give him credit for the fact that he has done some home work on the question of the EEC. I would suggest that Deputy O'Donovan, who is capable of doing home work, spoke almost entirely in the tone of why had not the Government shown the people the disadvantages; that they had shown all the advantages. I would ask, why has he not done his home work and why does he not bring out his own White Paper?

Have I the money that you people are spending on this thing—hundreds of thousands of pounds every year? The Minister is making a fool of himself. I have not 50 or 100 staff as the Government have in each Government Department.

All you want is a pen and ink.

One of the Labour Members brought the stuff from Brussels into the House of Commons and it filled the middle of the floor. It is all right to talk about an eager beaver like my friend Deputy FitzGerald, who is a good deal younger than I am and is backwards and forwards to Brussels every year.

I have not been there for 18 months.

The Minister should be allowed to make his speech.

This is a rather nice, interesting side issue.

Acting Chairman

Yes, but it is not relevant.

I should like to make a general comment before I sit down. I have tried to show that membership of the enlarged Community will directly benefit us. I have tried to deal, not with speculation or hopes or beliefs as to what would or would not happen, but with matters directly affected by the regulations as they stand and how we will have to adapt ourselves to them.

Was there an element of the béal bocht in what the Minister said?

The beneficial effects in relation to the two matters I have covered cannot be denied. That is the most important contribution one could make. I also want to emphasise again that we have not been sitting back. The Departments of Social Welfare and Labour have had officials in Brussels on several occasions dealing with the preliminary arrangements which are necessary before we submit our application for benefit from the Social Fund.

I will talk to the Minister privately about that. I will not say it in this House. There are things I want to say to the Minister.

I should like to make a general comment on the debate in so far as I have listened to it. I do not pretend to be an expert or an economist but when one works in the field of government for a certain time one must have certain objective views and become involved and deeply interested in matters that are of benefit to his own ministry. Otherwise he should not be there. I firmly believe that if we lose this opportunity, future generations will seriously reprimand us.

History will approve. I have no doubt about this. Like the Deputy, I am entitled to my view.

Hear, hear. We agree about that.

Closer integration with fellow European countries is long overdue. Furthermore, some of the speakers seem to have little faith in the ability of our people, not merely society or the community as a whole, but those who will take part in looking after our interests when we are a member of the Community. I have had some little part on occasions in international organisations such as the United Nations, the Inter-Parliamentary Union, the Council of Europe. I have seen Irishmen at meetings of these organisations in various capacities and they have been as capable as the representatives of any other country. Some of the speeches I have listened to here against the proposed entry to the European Community would suggest that we would not be able to stand on our own feet or pull our weight as a member.

We talk about what is likely to happen. We look back on what has been happening. We must remember that we will be there as part of the Community, doing our thing as we would like it to be done, co-operating in what the Community was originally established to do, that is, to harmonise, uplift, to improve the standard and expand the economy of all the member states. We will have a part of that. We will take a part. We should have some confidence in ourselves and in our people to play a full part in reaping the fruits of membership, obviating disadvantages which are bound to arise in this new situation in which we will find ourselves. We are well capable of doing it. If we do not give ourselves an opportunity to do it, future generations will blame us. I hope the motion will be carried and that we will be given an opportunity to demonstrate the benefits we can derive from membership of the European enlarged Community.

I have listened to quite a number of speeches in this debate. There have been serious and intelligent contributions on both sides. Deputy Keating's contribution merited close attention. I did not find it convincing; I found it contained certain internal contradictions which I shall return to later but it was a serious attempt to present a case against membership. Other speeches descended to a level of triviality which is disturbing in relation to a matter as serious as this.

The last two speeches against had one theme in common, a theme which they both urged as an important and significant point on the question of entry, that was, that the people in Europe get up earlier than we do and we would not be up to dealing with them because of the early hour at which they rose. When this is the common theme of several speeches against and this is the level at which the matter is discussed, one despairs of having a serious discussion of this whole matter.

The Labour motion putting down an amendment makes several points and criticises the negotiations. I think Labour speakers have also criticised the White Paper. There is some measure of common ground on these points between us. The White Paper was grossly inadequate in a number of respects. Indeed, I made that comment as soon as it was produced. In fact, I listed many of the things that were not in it and which should have been in it. It produces a number of figures as to the likely effects of membership on this country some of which seem reasonable to me. It is entirely possible that they represent an accurate order of magnitude of the changes that will take place but as no reasons whatever are given for this, as no explanation is vouchsafed as to how the figures are arrived at and as there is no evidence that any calculations were, in fact, done and that the figures were not taken out of a hat, the document is in this respect unconvincing and the failure in the White Paper to make any real case as regards the quantification of the gains of membership has left the whole burden of dealing with this to the Fine Gael Party. Indeed, it is significant that, so far, the main burden of the referendum campaign has rested on us.

Quite apart from that, basically, the White Paper has been largely invalidated to anybody concerned with economic reality. There are particular deficiencies in it which merit legislation and on which I suggest Labour and ourselves have common ground.

I think the reference in the White Paper to the situation at the end of ten years is disingenuous. I cannot reconcile that statement with the actual decision-making system in the Community in relation to this matter and I am disturbed that a document—we all know it was prepared by civil servants —with which the Government have not had much to do could appear. One wonders whether the statement in the White Paper represents what the civil servants think. If so, one must be worried. Perhaps, in this instance the politicians' hands descended and changed the words to state something other than what I think to be the truth.

Another feature of the White Paper is that the statement in it in regard to our alternatives are very vague and seriously defective. There is no attempt in it to assess the alternatives adequately. That part of the White Paper does not bring out at all the dilemma we face if we stay out after Britain effectively repudiates her trade agreement with us next January. We will be faced with the alternative of either doing nothing and having our exports excluded from the British market or signing a trade agreement under which we would have to give free trade in our market in return for trade on the British and the EEC markets. That is not an attractive alternative.

Moreover, the White Paper does not make any attempt to indicate the kind of terms that we might get for agricultural products under any kind of agreement with the EEC if we were outside it. There is no attempt to set out the terms other countries have got. Such an indication is necessary because our people must understand exactly how serious such a situation could be in regard to our agricultural industry. Our people must be told in concrete terms what sort of concessions, if any, the Community have given to other agricultural producers exporting the kind of goods we produce. It is only in that way that the Irish people can assess the effect of a decision to stay out of the Community. The White Paper does not make any reference to the Argentinian or Yugoslav agreements on beef or to the New Zealand agreement on dairy produce.

I have been conscious of all these things during this campaign and I still am conscious of them. I wonder were the Government trying to lose the campaign. Not alone that, but I wondered at the ineptitude of the Government—if they are trying to win this campaign. If they wish to do so, they must put the facts before the Irish people. The people must be given the full facts, including the unfortunate alternatives. They must be told bluntly what are the consequences of staying out. If the referendum is lost, it will be due largely to the ineptitude of the Government in not telling the people that, for instance, a £140 bullock exported to the Common Market which would fetch £140 on the British market at the moment would be taken from us for nothing, if we could get rid of it. That is one of the alternatives.

We must join with the Labour Party in criticising the Government in regard to the negotiations. Personally, I am not satisfied that the negotiations on fisheries were adequately handled. I know the political situation. I know the whole position was pre-empted by the Community decision on fishery policy. I am not satisfied that we could not have got the same terms as Norway, although I have not understood fully and I have not had explained to me why we took a different line to Norway and why Norway at the end managed to get a declaration on fisheries which we did not get. I am not sure that different handling would have produced a different result, but I think this should have been explained.

I think the handling of the sugar matter was particularly inept. The deal we got on sugar was good but the Government managed to convey to the Irish people the impression that they had lost out. Of course, they had asked for an absurd figure of 240,000 tons at the full price, or 300,000 tons at the prevailing price, which is twice our present output. This is in respect of a product of which there is a surplus in the Community. Any Government responsible for that kind of action could be treated only as having acted frivolously. It made them look as if they came back from Brussels with their tails between their legs when, in fact, they had got a deal which guaranteed us a market for an output of sugar in excess of the maximum we have ever produced. Any Government capable of doing that should not have been in charge of the negotiations.

I am not satisfied with the negotiations in regard to protocol and the speeches in connection with it. The wording of the protocol is not, in a sense, all that important. What is important is the interpretation put on the protocol in the speeches made at the time it was agreed. The speech by our Minister, unless rebutted, stands as our interpretation of it. In making that speech, the Minister did not, for some reason, bring in the question of increased employment. He brought in the question of underemployment and of living standards, but he did not refer to the question of increased employment. I do not understand why not. My understanding is that he was instructed not to do so. It seems very odd, and I think it was an unfortunate mistake in the negotiations.

Having said that, it must be said that with the deficiencies to which I have referred, with the apparent weaknesses shown by the Government in the negotiations, the outcome of the agreement, although it may not be as good as we would like, represents to us a substantial net advantage over remaining outside.

I, therefore, will turn to the question of whether, fundamentally, membership of the EEC will be beneficial to us. There is a tendency to discuss this very much on the level of individual products at an economic level. There are fundamental underlying realities behind our relationship with our neighbours in terms of trade and politics which will make membership of the Community beneficial to a country like Ireland.

First of all, one must be clear about the nature of the EEC. It is, of course, a customs union. It is a union in regard to external tariff which on certain products runs as high as 24 per cent, on carpets, for example. It is 17 per cent on textiles and clothing. That is an important fact that one must know because on it depends our assessment of our net gain from membership.

Secondly, the EEC has a common agricultural policy which is designed to protect farmers inside the Community from being undercut by imports. It is designed, in respect of many products, effectively to ban imports. It is vital to understand that, but there are still people who are talking in terms of our staying outside and sending our goods to the EEC by cutting our prices a bit. As I have said, we could cut our prices to nothing and still not get our goods paid for within the EEC. We must face the fact that a small country like ours is the main beneficiary from membership of the Community.

Debate adjourned.
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