asked the Taoiseach whether he is prepared to enlarge the proposed all-party committee on the Constitution so as to include representatives of all political parties in the Six Counties; and, if not, why.
2.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Constitutional Committee.
1.
asked the Taoiseach if he will state the agreed terms of reference of the inter-party committee on the Constitution and the staffing arrangements for the servicing of the committee by staff of the Houses of the Oireachtas.
I propose with your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, to take Questions Nos. 1 and 2 together.
I expect to be in a position to announce the terms of reference and the names of the members of the committee very shortly.
Could I take it from the Taoiseach's reply that he is open to the idea that, in order that there should be relevance in the consideration that this committee would give the Constitution, it would include representatives of the people for whom we are proposing to make the changes? A Twenty-six County party committee dealing with changes in our Constitution to suit the people in the Six Counties would seem to me to be ridiculous since the people who represent the Six Counties would not be on it. Is that idea still being considered by the Taoiseach?
No. It is not my intention, at this stage, at least, to invite the members referred to by the Deputy.
Is there any particular reason for that? Would there be legal problems?
This is a committee of members of this House nominated by the Leaders of the parties in the House, and I intend to keep it at that at this stage anyway.
Would the Taoiseach not agree that there are people in Northern Ireland who would be interested in participating in this work?
I presume there would be, yes.
Would he not think, therefore, it would be desirable to have them?
I want to get this committee working and working quickly. To extend its representation as the Deputy suggests would not be conducive to getting it to work quickly.
Is it not a fact that only Dáil Deputies can be members of a Dáil committee?
This is a committee of members of the Dáil, certainly.
As this is a committee of members of the Dáil, may we assume that it would be serviced by staff of the Houses of the Oireachtas?
No.
Can we have some indication as to what the arrangements will be?
I told the Deputy in reply to his question that I would be making an announcement shortly, and very shortly at that.
Will it be this week?
I hope it will be this week.
Would the Taoiseach say—and this is the key to this difficulty—if this will be a select committee of the Dáil which he has in mind or will it be an informal committee? A select committee, by Standing Orders, makes it impossible to have on it any person who is not a member of the Dáil, whereas an informal committee would have the advantage of involving people outside the Dáil. It is important to get this point clear.
The Deputy has put his finger on it. It is my intention not to have a select committee of the Dáil as such bound by the Dáil Standing Orders, but an informal committee of members nominated by the Leaders of the parties.
And they could co-opt others if they thought it advisable?
They can ask people to give them information.
As far as Fine Gael are concerned, we hope they will.
I have risen five times and others have been called in front of me.
The Deputy has put a supplementary.
Yes, but he also put down the question. I want to ask the Taoiseach to take into consideration what Deputy Ryan has now put in another way, that we do not set up a committee that would preclude by its very nature its enlargement by bringing in, at a very early date I would hope, the representatives of the Six Counties who would be in a position to tell the committee what changes they want rather than we, who do not know what we are talking about, would sit down and tell them what we think they want.
An informal committee can do that by co-option.
Would the Taoiseach not agree that if this committee are not to be too exclusive, considering the problems with which they will be dealing, they could make arrangements to consult with the elected representatives in Northern Ireland—and I stress "elected" representatives. May I say also that, whatever about the arrangements and the objectives, if we are serious about the work before us, it will call for a full time secretariat?
We shall think about that too.
(Cavan): Would the Taoiseach agree that his statement over the week-end in Donegal with reference to this committee, or what was taken to be a reference to this committee, created confusion and led some people in Northern Ireland to believe that they would be on this committee and that the Taoiseach was, in fact, inviting them to come on it? Will he now clarify the position with particular reference to the statement he made in Donegal on Sunday and the further statement he made in Castlebar the following day?
I said in Donegal that we would consider other initiatives of a like nature so as to supplement and support the work of the committee we are now discussing. I thought that was very specific. If people misunderstood it was not my fault.
(Cavan): It was not taken that way.
I agree with the Deputy but——
Is it not a fact that a committee which is not a select committee has no powers to send for persons or papers and that it might be necessary in setting it up to give this committee ample powers to send for persons or papers?
This will not be the only committee or the only body that will be dealing with this matter. I want to make the work of this committee as flexible as possible. They will be a committee of mature members of the Dáil and I presume they will be able to act in a mature and responsible way. I agree with Deputy O'Leary's suggestion that the committee would call for assistance from other people, especially the elected representatives in the North.
Would the Taoiseach not agree that it is important that the committee should not alone be flexible, but effective, and that their effectiveness will depend on their power to get information and their power to have access to the work of the inter-departmental committee and to send for papers and persons to complete their work? Will he ensure that they have such power? Mere maturity on the part of the members may not be sufficient if, mature though they be, they have no power to do their work.
May I ask the Taoiseach——
I am calling Question No. 3.
I am entitled to ask a second supplementary.
The Deputy is not entitled to ask a second supplementary. That is a matter for the Chair.
May I put it to the Taoiseach——
I shall allow a final supplementary from Deputy Desmond.
——that it would be more appropriate to have, not merely exchanges of letters between the three party Leaders on this issue, which is already confused enough, but informal discussions with the Leaders of the Opposition parties with a view to clarifying the situation?
The committee will be representative of the Fine Gael, Labour and Fianna Fáil Parties, the members being nominated by the Leaders of the parties. I have already indicated to the Leaders of the other parties that our representatives on this committee would report back and keep us continually informed, so that the parties to which they belong would endorse and approve any recommendations or any agreement they make within the committee itself. In reply to Deputy FitzGerald's supplementary question, I envisage servicing this committee by officials of my Department, officials who are in contact with the inter-departmental unit who have done a number of studies on this whole problem and in that way not only would the committee have access to information and knowledge but would have access also to information and knowledge that would be provided by other Ministers.
I want to come back to that again.