Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 19 Jul 1973

Vol. 267 No. 9

Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the European Communities: Motion of Expediency.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach (Mr. Kelly)

I move:

(1) That it is expedient that a Joint Committee of both Houses of the Oireachtas (which shall be called the Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the European Communities) be established consisting of—

(a) those members of either such House who are for the time being delegates to the Assembly of the European Communities, and

(b) sixteen other persons of whom ten shall be members of Dáil Éireann and six shall be members of Seanad Éireann

to examine—

(i) such drafts, prepared by the Commission of the European Communities and submitted to the Council of those Communities, of regulations, directives, decisions, recommendations and opinions, of that Council,

(ii) such acts of the institutions of those Communities,

(iii) such regulations under the European Communities Act, 1972 (No. 27 of 1972), and

(iv) such other instruments made under statute and necessitated by the obligations of membership of those Communities,

as the Committee may select and to report thereon to both Houses of the Oireachtas.

(2) That five members of the Committee shall form a quorum of whom at least one shall be a member of Dáil Éireann and at least one shall be a member of Seanad Éireann.

Mr. J. Gibbons

Would the Minister confirm that the numbers and the representation on the proposed committee are to be determined not under this Bill but later?

Dr. FitzGerald

The motion lays down that there should be ten from the Dáil and six from the Seanad, added to the ten European Parliament members. In arriving at that proportion between Dáil and Seanad I took into account the views of the different parties as to what proportion each party would wish, so that, as far as possible, in the final composition of the committee each party would be represented by the people they wished to be represented by.

Mr. J. Gibbons

Was there consultation and agreement between the parties on this?

Dr. FitzGerald

There was consultation on the matter and I indicated the view of the Government as to the proportion of representation between the parties which seemed appropriate, which is giving one of ours to the Opposition to increase their membership, and then asked that on that basis the parties would state how many they would wish from the Seanad and how many from the Dáil. When I received that information that gave us the figure which is in the Bill. I am not suggesting that I have received agreement to the party composition. I do not know whether there is still disagreement on that, but I have not been informed of agreement on that point. The composition between Dáil and Seanad takes into account the proportions which parties would wish for on the basis of party composition, proposed by the Government. That is all I could do at this stage.

Mr. J. Gibbons

Is it not the practice with other committees of the House that there would be parity between the Government parties and the Opposition? It seems to suggest that it was rather petty reaching for a majority decision on the part of the Government party on this most important of all committees, a pettiness that ought not to be there. It will militate against the co-operation of the different members of the committee. In sub-committees of the House it is customary to give equal representation to the Government and the Opposition and the chairmanship to the Opposition. That used to be the procedure in order to ensure the proper cohesion of the committee. If there is a petty reaching out for a majority position on the part of the Government party, this cohesion would not be achieved.

Dr. FitzGerald

The Deputy cannot feel that, because on a proportionate basis, of the 16 people we are adding —because we are not bringing the other ten into the calculation—the proportions I got were six Fianna Fáil, one Independent, seven Fine Gael and two Labour. However, as that would have given a majority to the Government, which seemed inappropriate, I proposed that one of the Fine Gael members should be allocated to Fianna Fáil, so that the Government had eight members and the Opposition and Independents had eight members. I do not know how else it can be done unless it is suggested that Independents should be permanently excluded from the committees of this House, which in this particular instance would be unfortunate in view of the experience and knowledge of some Independents on this subject. I think that in conceding an additional member to ensure that the Government would not have a majority, the Government are going very far indeed.

Mr. J. Gibbons

Would it be possible to have eight Government, eight Opposition and one Independent?

Mr. Cunningham

Supposing the Independent is from the Seanad, if this is the calculation, how is the Minister to determine in the Seanad Independents as against party?

Dr. FitzGerald

According to whether they take the party Whip or not. I would endeavour to find out. I do not think there would be much difficulty there.

Mr. Desmond

Might I point out that, relatively speaking, we might be entitled to two and a half or two and a quarter Deputies, but, in fact, we have accepted the suggestion of two. Therefore, it would work out at ten members of the European Parliament, seven Fianna Fáil, one Independent——

Mr. Crowley

This Bill does not fix the ratio?

Dr. FitzGerald

No, it does not. The motion does not. It is a matter for subsequent discussion, but I want to make it clear to the House, lest there be any confusion, what the Government's view is. It does marginally affect the relative proportion of Dáil and Seanad, and the membership proposed between the two reflects the views of the parties as to what they would wish on the basis of the Government's proposition. For example, if the Government's proposition were not accepted and if the Opposition's view were taken, the ratio would then become nine/seven rather than ten/ six. Of course, there is no obligation to divide between Dáil and Seanad in order to enable each party to appoint particularly whom it wants. That is a courtesy I thought I should afford within the limits of the Government's proposals for the composition of the committee.

However, to move to a committee of 17 would create something of a precedent. The normal thing is for the committee to be of even numbers and evenly divided. On the question of the chairmanship, I would have an open mind on that. I do not think the Government parties would be seeking the chairmanship should the Opposition and Independent representatives feel that the chairmanship should come from them. In view of the nature of this committee as a watchdog committee, it would seem to me appropriate that the chairman should come from the Opposition, and that is not something we intend to challenge.

Question put and agreed to.