asked the Taoiseach if he will give details of the co-operation which exists between the peacekeeping forces of the State and the security forces in the Six Counties.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Northern Ireland Situation.
1.
It is normal practice for one police force to assist another in the investigation of serious crime and in the prosecution of criminal offences but, for obvious reasons, I am not prepared to disclose details.
While the Taoiseach in his reply deals only with the matter of serious criminal offences, the purpose of the question, as I have no doubt the Taoiseach will have recognised, was to elicit information as to whether there is co-operation and collaboration between the forces on both sides of the Border in regard to political offences.
I have answered the question and I do not propose to add anything to it.
May I ask the Taoiseach if, in fact, the co-operation and the collaboration that now exist are new departures in our relationship with the occupation forces of part of our country, changes that have taken place recently and under this Government?
The practice is the same as it was when the Deputy was a Minister.
I am calling Question No. 2.
Arising out of the Taoiseach's statement——
I cannot allow the Deputy to make continuous speeches on the matter. I have given him a lot of latitude and we must pass to the next question.
I thank the Chair for the time that has been given but this is a very serious matter that involves the peacekeeping forces of this State who are being used——
If the Deputy has a precise supplementary question the House will hear him.
I am asking the Taoiseach if he is aware that, contrary to past procedure, members of our peacekeeping forces are, in fact, being used by the occupation forces in the Six Counties on identification parades to identify political offenders in order that they may be prosecuted and put into concentration camps at Long Kesh. Is the Taoiseach aware of this? Is it common practice or is it a new procedure?
I have nothing to add to the reply I have given.
2.
asked the Taoiseach the policy of the Government with regard to the crossing of the Border by foreign troops.
The Government would regard as unacceptable any unauthorised crossing of the Border by foreign troops.
May I ask the Taoiseach if there would be circumstances in which a crossing of our Border by foreign troops would be authorised?
That is a hypothetical question. I am not prepared to answer hypothetical questions.
May I ask if the recent statement by the Minister for Defence as to the circumstances in which foreign troops did cross our Border is Government policy; if there are circumstances in which we will ask and allow these people in without let or hindrance and in that way throw away whatever sovereignty we have or claim to have? Is that Government policy now?
There has been no change in our attitude in this regard and any unauthorised crossing of the Border is not acceptable.
I am asking what is authorised. I am talking about the authorised crossings—crossings which were mentioned by the Minister for Defence—where helicopters might hover five feet or five yards from the ground. We have heard this but I do not know if it is true. It is a most disturbing feature——
The Deputy is indulging in long statements and arguments.
I am asking the Taoiseach to allay any fears that may have arisen as a result of a reported recent statement by the Minister for Defence. Can we have an assurance from the Taoiseach that no foreign troops are allowed over our Border in any circumstances, that there is no such authorisation, that there will not be and that there has not been such authorisation? Can we have that assurance from the Taoiseach because this would allay all fears?
Neither the Deputy nor anybody else need suffer from any fears or disturbance about this. The practice of allowing aircraft from another country to cross the territory is one that has existed for a long time and permission has to be given in each case. There has been no change in that situation.
I appreciate the Taoiseach's effort to allay fears in talking about authorisation of aircraft crossing our Border. I am talking about military craft, military vehicles and personnel crossing our Border which would seem to be condoned by a reported statement by the Minister for Defence recently. Was the Minister reported correctly and, if reported correctly, is this the case? May they cross the Border and do the Government propose to allow them to cross? I am talking about military personnel on a military mission.
I have said the only occasions on which aircraft are allowed to cross a border by any country is when permission is sought. There has been no change in that situation.
3.
asked the Taoiseach if the British Prime Minister at any time during the meeting of 17th September, 1973, raised the possibility of the complete integration of the Six Counties of Northern Ireland with Britain; if so, whether he pointed out to Mr. Heath the grave consequences of such a development; if Mr. Heath did not raise the matter at that meeting, whether the gravity of such a course was raised with the British Government following Mr. Heath's public reference to it and if an assurance was sought and received that integration was not contemplated.
4.
asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on his recent talks with the British Prime Minister.
With your permission, a Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Question Nos. 3 and 4 together.
A joint communique was issued following my meeting with the British Prime Minister on the 17th September last. It would not be in accordance with practice to reveal other details of the discussions. Much of the value of such meetings depends on their confidentiality.
Mr. Heath's public remarks of the 17th September, 1973, on the integration of the Six Counties of Northern Ireland with Britain were superseded by his statement on the following day in which he made it clear that integration was not, in fact, envisaged. No representations were made in the matter.
I take it that it is implicit in the Taoiseach's reply that the matter was not raised during the course of his talks with Mr. Heath and I do not propose to press the Taoiseach further on that. It appears that there was no official withdrawal of the suggestion that there was a possibility of integration in certain circumstances. Will the Taoiseach accept that the purpose of my putting down the question was to have this on the record of the House?
As I have said, the remarks made by Mr. Heath on the 17th September were superseded by a statement which he made the following day when he spoke at a meeting in London. I take it that was an official statement and one which represented the British Government's viewpoint.
That statement did not appear to be as explicit as the statement made to the Northern Ireland representative of the BBC on the evening of the 17th September. That, again, is the purpose of my putting down this question.
I think it was explicit enough to those who heard it.
Regarding Question No. 4, can the Taoiseach say whether during the course of his discussions with Mr. Heath he, as Taoiseach, made it known to the British Prime Minister that we wish to have the British out of this country?
The British Government are fully aware of our views on this matter.
Question No. 5.
That is not what I asked. I asked whether the Taoiseach made such a request to Mr. Heath during the discussions.
The Chair has called Question No. 5
I have nothing to add.
5.
asked the Taoiseach if the Government have formulated proposals on the role, function and scope of the Council of Ireland; and, if so, the precise nature of the proposals.
The Government have approved a set of proposals as to the structure, role and function of a Council of Ireland. It would not be appropriate, at this stage, to make public the details of those proposals.
Have the Government discussed also the question of the evolution of the council in view of the statement made by the Minister for Foreign Affairs when he said that the pace of the evolution will be dictated by the consent of the majority in Northern Ireland?
In the same vein as Deputy O'Kennedy, may I ask whether in regard to the statement of the Minister in question we are totally removed from the concept that it is the will of the majority of the entire Irish people that should be the determining factor in all these matters and not the will of the majority in the Six Counties?
Of course, the council must be formed before it can evolve into anything else. At this stage the council has not been formed but we hope that it will be formed.
Can the Taoiseach say whether the Minister for Foreign Affairs was expressing Government policy when he said that the pace of the evolution of the council would be dictated by the consent of the majority in Northern Ireland in view of the fact particularly that an evolution of executive powers in this part of Ireland would involve also a constitutional referendum? Surely the pace of the evolution of any council would be determined by the concensus of the people of the whole country as expressed through their representatives?
The pace of the evolution of the council would depend on all the members including the majority in the North as well as of the people here.
I take it that what the Taoiseach is saying is at variance with what has been said by the Minister for Foreign Affairs in regard to the pace of the evolution of the council?
A council can evolve only by agreement, that is, if all the members accept its evolution.
Would the Taoiseach agree that the statement made by the Minister for Foreign Affairs was misleading and unnecessary in the circumstances?
No.
In view of the fact that the council would, as of now, appear to be representative of the Assembly in the North and of the Oireachtas in the South and not of the Government of the South nor of the Executive of the North only and since it would require at least the consent of the representatives of the Oireachtas who would form part of that council, would the Taoiseach say at what point he proposes to indicate to the House or to the Opposition the content of the proposals that the Government have now formulated for a Council of Ireland?
Are the Government of the opinion that a Council of Ireland, which does not have the security of the entire Thirty-two Counties as its prerogative, without any allegiance to any outside power, is only a gimmick?
In reply to the Leader of the Opposition, in view of the different parties that are involved in the discussions which we hope will lead to the formation of a council, it is not possible at this stage to say precisely when the details will be published. Regarding the other supplementary, it is a little early yet to comment on the precise form of what will emerge eventually. The egg has not yet been hatched and, therefore, it would be premature to comment on the offspring.
I have not asked the Taoiseach to comment on the appearance or the nature of the offspring. I am simply asking at what point he will make the contents of the proposals known to Dáil Éireann so that we in the Opposition who would expect to be represented on that council will be aware of what kind of council is proposed. Further, is it likely that the parties constituting the Assembly in the North would be consulted also? Is that not almost certain?
The Deputy can rest assured that at the appropriate time those interested will be consulted.