asked the Minister for Education if he will clarify the position regarding candidates awarded two honours in Gaeilge in the leaving certificate examination in so far as entrance to regional colleges and training colleges is concerned.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Leaving Certificate Irish Honours.
27.
Mr. R. Burke
In a statement which I issued through the Government Information Services on 6 September, 1973, I said:
So far as entrance to the Training Colleges and the award of Regional Technical College and other Department scholarships are concerned it would clearly be inequitable to give double credits for a single subject since these awards are made on a competitive basis.
Irish, therefore, does not carry double credits in these competitions; nor does mathematics which also carried double credits for University grants purposes.
I cannot see how I can be more explicit than that.
What benefits are available to a person who gets honours in Irish? It seems like a dud cheque. A person cannot go to training college and it does not count for university. What kind of job can a person get by having two honours for Irish?
Mr. R. Burke
I think the Deputy misunderstands the situation.
No.
Mr. R. Burke
Many of the Deputies opposite misunderstood the situation. There is no question of a double credit for honours but only for the purpose of the award of a higher education grant on similar terms to those on which mathematics are allowed double credits.
Is there any use in having an honours Irish other than hanging the certificate over the mantelpiece——
The Deputy should not be flippant about Question Time.
Mr. R. Burke
As the Deputy knows, the award of a higher education grant depends on the achievement of four honours at higher level papers in the leaving certificate. In respect of higher mathematics, my predecessor made available higher education grants on foot of higher mathematics and two other subjects and I agree with his decision. I did the same in relation to Irish and two other subjects. In so far as that is an incentive it can be regarded as such; in so far as mathematics honours is an incentive, that is also the case. I cannot make it any clearer than that.
Is the Minister aware that, if a student has a leaving certificate with four subjects of which Irish is one, that certificate is not a qualification for entrance to nursing? It is not being accepted by a number of training hospitals.
Mr. R. Burke
I am not responsible for entry into training hospitals.
The Minister made it clear earlier that a leaving certificate could be obtained by having four subjects of which Irish was one, that Irish would count as a fifth subject. That has misled many people——
The Deputy is making a statement rather than asking a supplementary question.
Is the Minister aware this has misled many people? The leaving certificate these girls have is not worth the paper it is written on and is not even worth hanging over the mantelpiece.
Mr. R. Burke
I am sad to hear that the Deputy disagrees with the policy of incentives in relation to the study of Irish at leaving certificate level.
That is not so.
Is it the case that the only incentive available arising out of the arrangements the Minister made with regard to honours Irish is with regard to higher education grants? Am I correct in this?
Mr. R. Burke
The Deputy is correct. As I said in my statement on 5th April, that was the case; but those who wished to misrepresent my position alleged I said more on that occasion. I challenge any Member of this House to substantiate that allegation.
I am not making any allegation. I am simply clarifying the position as I understand it from the Minister and, apparently, I have clarified it correctly. Does it follow that the incentive the Minister talks about does not apply in any of the other cases mentioned here with regard to regional technical colleges and so on? Is it the case that the only incentive is in relation to higher education grants which are of limited application, related to income and other matters? Is this correct?
Mr. R. Burke
That is correct. However, may I explain to the Deputy that higher education grants are available on an open basis? There is no restriction of numbers. Entry to the training colleges and regional technical colleges are on a competitive basis. As I said in reply to Deputy Tunney, it would be inequitable to do other than I have done. In so far as higher education grants are an open competition, the incentive in there. I never said anything in my statement of 5th April in relation to regional technical colleges or entry to training colleges. Only those who wish to misrepresent my position have brought in this extra dimension in the matter in order to reduce the attractiveness of the incentive which I have offered in place of compulsion. As the Minister for Education, I challenge any Member of the Opposition party to substantiate the allegations made on 8th September by Deputy Tunney and by the President of the Gaelic League.
Would the Minister——
We cannot debate this matter all afternoon.
If I might put a brief supplementary? Whatever the Minister may say about statements by members of this party, would he accept that, arising out of his original statement, many schoolchildren, parents and teachers were under a different impression of the situation from that which he has now clarified in the House?
Mr. R. Burke
I accept that a number of persons either misunderstood the situation or were misled by those whose motives I would suspect. If I might quote what I said on 5th April——
The Chair is concerned that we are now entering the realm of debate.
Mr. R. Burke
In paragraph (b) of my statement I said:
that as an incentive to pupils to study Irish in an intensive manner and to a high standard, Irish at the higher level will be regarded from 1973 onwards as two subjects for higher education grants purposes. This concession already applies in the case of higher level Mathematics in view of the range and complexity of the subject. It is not the intention that the concession of two subject equivalence should apply to both Irish and Mathematics in the case of any individual pupil.
I think Deputies will understand the position.
(Interruptions.)
Question No. 28.
Mr. R. Burke
If the Deputy regards the Irish language as a subject to the related to 1st April I cannot help that but I reject categorically the statement I misled any person and I have read the statement.
The Chair is anxious to get on with Questions. Question No. 28, please.