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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 12 Feb 1974

Vol. 270 No. 3

Social Welfare (Agricultural Employees) Regulations, 1974: Motion.

I move:

That the Social Welfare (Agricultural Employees) Regulations, 1974, proposed to be made by the Minister for Social Welfare and laid in draft before Dáil Éireann on the 20th day of December, 1973, under subsection (4) of Section 10 of the Social Welfare (Pay-Related Benefit) Act, 1973, be approved.

The purpose of these regulations is to bring male and female argicultural workers into the pay-related benefit scheme from the start. That scheme is provided for under the Social Welfare (Pay-Related Benefit) Act, 1973, and the necessary order has been made to bring it into operation from the beginning of the next income tax year on 6th April, 1974.

The scheme is designed for persons whose social insurance covers them for disability benefit, maternity allowance and unemployment benefit. Pay-related benefit will be paid as a supplement to these flat rate benefits during periods of incapacity for work or unemployment. Benefit will be based on the claimant's earnings in a previous income tax year and particulars of these earnings will be supplied to my Department by the Revenue Commissioners. The scheme will be financed by pay-related contributions levied on employers and employees. These contributions will amount to 3 per cent of the employee's current earnings up to a ceiling of £2,500 in the year, the employer paying 2 per cent and the employee 1 per cent. They will be collected by the Revenue Commissioners through the income tax collection machinery, mainly by way of PAYE.

When the Act was introduced and, indeed, during the course of its passage through the Oireachtas, it was envisaged that the scheme would, initially, cover only persons paying the ordinary flat-rate social insurance contributions because of the difficulties encountered in arranging a system of collecting pay-related contributions outside that sector. The persons covered by the scheme would thus all be in industrial, commercial and services-type employment. With the abolition from 1st April, 1974, of the remuneration limit of £1,600 for social insurance in the case of non-manual workers, all employees in those employments will be brought within the scope of the pay-related benefit scheme. The main groups of workers not included in the scheme although insured for disability benefit, maternity allowance and unemployment benefit purposes were male and female agricultural workers. Section 10 of the Act, however, gave power for the making of regulations to extend the scheme to cover classes of employees other than those paying the ordinary rate of social insurance contribution.

It had always been the intention to have the coverage of the scheme as wide as possible and to bring agricultural workers in particular into the scheme as soon as it was feasible to do so. With this in mind, officials of my Department and of Revenue continued to explore the matter after the Act had been passed. As a result of their examination, the Revenue Commissioners have agreed to undertake the collection of pay-related contributions from employees in the agricultural sector from 6th April next. It will, therefore, be possible to bring agricultural workers, both male and female, into the scheme from the start and regulations for that purpose have been prepared as provided for in section 10 of the Act. That section, however, requires that drafts of the regulations must be laid before each House of the Oireachtas and that the regulations cannot be made until the draft has been approved by resolution in each House.

The draft regulations which are the subject of this resolution will apply the provisions of the 1973 Act to persons employed in agriculture for whom the special agricultural rates of social insurance contributions are payable by including pay derived from employment in agriculture in the definition of earnings reckonable for the purposes of pay-related benefit and contributions.

I recommend these regulations for the approval of Dáil Éireann.

I am naturally very pleased that the provisions of the Social Welfare (Pay-Related Benefit) Act, 1973, will shortly come into operation. Of course, this Act is one which was piloted through the House by my colleague. Deputy Joe Brennan, when he was Minister for Social Welfare. The Act is a significant step forward in the development of our social insurance scheme and it helps bring our code into line with the social insurance codes in the European Economic Community.

The Act, as the Parliamentary Secretary said, was designed to ensure that insured workers would receive unemployment and sickness benefits which would have a reasonable relationship to their normal income and would complement the flat rate payments. Benefits over the years had to be increased quite considerably. Nevertheless it was easy to appreciate how the system as it stands could not give the advantages which are apparent in the pay-related benefit scheme and those who suffered a severe drop in their standard of living when unemployed or ill were naturally very anxious that this scheme should be implemented. I have no doubt they will accept that the extra charge on their income when they are working will be well worthwhile.

When Fianna Fáil were in office they were criticised by the then Opposition for not bringing in the Pay-Related Benefit Bill earlier. However, I think it is now appreciated that the problem in a country such as ours, related not only to the collection of contributions but to obtaining accurate information regarding incomes, is a very complex one. When we were satisfied that the necessary machinery was available and capable of giving the required information there was no hesitation in bringing in the measure. This measure had in fact been promised by us in the Third Programme for Economic Expansion. The date of its implementation, the 6th April, 1974, was also criticised as being delayed too long but quite obviously the problems facing the then Minister for Social Welfare are now understood by the present Government because the date nominated by us has been adhered to by them.

The Parliamentary Secretary in the motion before the House proposes to bring agricultural workers within the scope of the scheme by regulation. I support him in this. I think it is only fair to say that the previous Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy Joe Brennan, was also anxious that the agricultural workers should be included as soon as it was possible to do so. In fact he promised to bend all his energies before the implementation date towards overcoming the problems so that he would be able to bring them into the scheme. There is no need for me to emphasise the fact that the agricultural worker is a highly skilled worker. He works in our most important industry. There is no need either for me to emphasise that we should ensure that he gets equal treatment with his co-worker in any other sphere of our economic life. The decision not to include agricultural workers for the time being was taken by the previous Minister simply because of the difficulty of obtaining precise information in relation to income. The Parliamentary Secretary has stated that this problem has been overcome. Perhaps he might give us some details in his reply.

The former Minister pointed out, when the Bill was going through the House, that he was making provision to enable agricultural workers to be brought into the scheme by regulation and that coverage would be extended to them as soon as possible. He had to decide at the time whether he should hold up the whole Bill and deprive other workers of these benefits while endeavouring to find a solution to the problems relating to agricultural workers, or whether he should proceed with the Bill and, in the meantime, between the time the Bill was enacted and the date of its implementation, endeavour to reach a solution to the problems while at the same time ensuring that, having reached a solution, enabling power would be available to include agricultural workers immediately. The Minister for Social Welfare at that time pointed out that the Minister for Finance was investigating the position and that as soon as a solution was arrived at he would be delighted to include agricultural workers in the scheme.

I intended to raise a question about the position of domestic workers in relation to the pay related benefits scheme but, in reply to a question on Thursday last, the Parliamentary Secretary told me he was having this aspect of the matter examined. There is one other point I should like to raise. In the explanatory note to the original document which was circulated, it is stated that the Revenue Commissioners will supply particulars of the earnings reckonable for this purpose and will collect the pay related contributions mainly through the PAYE system. I should like to know what is meant by "mainly".

As I said at the beginning, I am very pleased that the agricultural workers are now being brought into the pay-related benefits scheme. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will continue to develop this scheme to include other workers and in particular that he will extend the scope of the scheme. As was pointed out when the Bill was going through the House, while to begin with it was intended to cover certain aspects only, such as unemployment and illness, the intention was eventually to extend the scheme to cover pensions and other such matters. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will continue to develop the scheme.

I should also like to welcome this order. It raises the whole status of our social welfare benefits schemes. I note that it is an on-going operation and I hope that this time next year we will see further improvements. Like Deputy Faulkner I had intended to raise the matter of people in domestic service but, as he said, the Parliamentary Secretary has already replied to that question.

I want to ask him one other question which he may have answered elsewhere. How would a self-employed worker be affected? Would he have any benefits coming to him or would he have to pay tax? He certainly would not have to pay an employer's contribution. I should also like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to consider the case of a worker who is not liable for benefit under the Redundancy Payments Acts. He has to work at least 20 hours a week before he qualifies for redundancy payments. Is he penalised in any way under this order and, if so, would the Parliamentary Secretary look at that matter? I welcome the order.

I welcome the contributions made by Deputy Faulkner and Deputy Moore. Undoubtedly there were difficulties with regard to the inclusion of agricultural workers in the pay-related benefits scheme. The Minister was extremely anxious that they should be included and, after further investigation and discussions with the Revenue people, it was found possible to include them. I am glad Deputy Faulkner agrees with the desirability of doing this when it was found possible to do it.

Questions were raised about the self-employed and about pay related pensions. These are both areas in which it is very desirable that extensions should be made. It is Government policy to have as full and as comprehensive coverage as possible under the social security system. Some progress has already been made on the question of the self-employed. This was not an easy task, as I am sure Deputies will realise when they recognise that the percentage of self-employed in this country is approximately 31 as compared with 7.5 in Great Britain. This presents a very considerable problem in extending coverage to them. However, we have been giving this matter active consideration at home and the Government, apart from that, had included in the social action programme of the EEC as a priority the question of examining the position of persons within the community who were not covered or who were inadequately covered by social services. This, of course, would affect the position of the self-employed here. This is not an area which has been neglected by the Government. Indeed, significant progress has been made in that direction.

Deputy Faulkner raised the question of pay-related pensions. This is a most desirable development. There is no question about that. I am sure the Deputy will also realise that it is a very complex area, indeed, and one to which very serious consideration would have to be given before it could be introduced. The Minister intends to examine the question of extending pay-related benefits to pay-related pensions after a full examination of all the implications of doing that has been carried out. I can assure the House that these matters are receiving attention and I welcome the fact that they have been brought to our notice once again here this afternoon.

I asked the Parliamentary Secretary what exactly was meant by "mainly through the PAYE system". As I understand it, 3 per cent of the gross earnings of an employee will be sent by the employer to the Revenue Commissioners through the PAYE system. Obviously there must be some other way in which part of it will be sent because the word "mainly" was used. If the Parliamentary Secretary has not got the reply now, perhaps it would be convenient for him to let me have it at some other date because I would like to know what "mainly" means.

I can send the Deputy details of people who would not come under the PAYE system. They would be very few.

Question put and agreed to.
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