Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 6 Mar 1974

Vol. 270 No. 13

Private Members' Business. - Farm Income: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Deputy G. Collins on 5th March, 1974:

That Dáil Éireann deplores the serious decline in farm income which has been aggravated by the enormous increases in farming costs.

Debate resumed on the following amendment:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and to insert the following:—

"notes that, even allowing for very much greater input costs, farm incomes rose substantially during 1973 but recognises that there have been cases where individual farmers have suffered losses arising from a variety of circumstances in recent months".

—(Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries.)

Mr. J. O'Leary

When the debate was adjourned yesterday I said that it would be in the interest of many small farmers to fertilise their land and grow grass as they did last year but they were unable to do so unless some assistance was provided for them to purchase fertilisers and manures. Credit should be made freely available, interest free, from some source to enable smallholders in particular to keep their stock of calves and young cattle. It was disgraceful on the part of the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries and the Minister for Industry and Commerce to decontrol animal food on the 20th December last. The Minister stated this was done on the advise of farming organisations. It was the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, on the advice of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, who called in the farming organisations and advised them if they accepted it this way they would do better. Both Ministers have reneged their responsibilities to the farmers by decontrolling the price of animal food. It is far better to have some control than have no control at all.

The manner in which the increase in the price of fertilisers was handled was disgraceful. The manufacturers, the compounders and the importers must have known in advance they were going to get an increase because around Christmas, when many farmers tried to buy in some fertilisers and manures, they could not get them because the merchants and the co-ops did not have any in stock. Once the increase was announced, CIE were kept very busy supplying all the merchants and the co-ops throughout the country. There was a lot of stockpiling. Many of the merchants and the co-ops are fed up with the way in which this business was handled. It will take a tremendous effort to restore confidence if the small farmer is to produce cattle and pigs at a desirably high level.

The Minister cannot allow prices like this to develop again. The pig industry is in a very bad state. Things are so bad that thousands of sows in young are being slaughtered weekly because the price of feedingstuff has gone up so high. It is uncontrolled and no new markets are being opened up for bacon. I suggest a few ways to the Minister by which he could improve the situation. The EEC and the banks should be asked to make more money available to farmers. Rate collectors should be asked to go easy between now and the 31st March particularly in relation to the smallholders. The Minister should ask his colleague to give back to the small farmers the medical cards which were taken from them last year. The dole to small farmers should be increased. Interest free loans should be made available to enable farmers to provide feed for young and unfinished cattle and also to enable them to rear bonhams.

The Minister should do something positive about opening up an export market for calves. A special case could be made to the EEC for subsidies. Other countries have done this and we should also be able to do it. Some form of assistance should be made available immediately for the small farmers. Unlike big farmers, they cannot hold out under the present depression in their industry. The Government should make available the additional money coming in under VAT particularly in relation to the substantial increases imposed on farm feedingstuffs. Last night the Minister said that we should get away from insularity of outlook and realise that we are now a remote island on the perimeter of Europe. I cannot understand the Minister's statement here.

Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries (Mr. Clinton)

We are not. We are part of Europe.

Mr. G. Collins

He is not too good at geography.

Mr. J. O'Leary

I can assure the Minister that Fianna Fáil will not change their outlook, insular or otherwise, in so far as safeguarding the interests of the farmers is concerned. Now that we are one of the nine countries in the EEC and a small island we must watch our people's interests more than ever before. I believe the Minister must act now in the interest of the small farmers. I do not care whether or not they outnumber the big farmers but the Minister must act on their behalf now if they are to survive. Those people have to maintain their homes and families out of the income they obtain from their small farms. They cannot survive if they cannot get good prices for their cattle and calves.

Last night the Minister stated that farmers were getting a good price for their milk. They want every penny of it. We look forward to farmers getting more money for their milk this year than they ever got before. The Minister should do something about it. He can do something about the situation because where there is a will there is always a way.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries (Mr. M.P. Murphy)

Today is the 6th March and it is not too many days since the 26th February. While we all welcome a motion dealing with our main industry, agriculture, I wonder what kind of dialogue exists between the present Fianna Fáil spokesman on agriculture and his leader, Deputy Lynch? At a meeting in Cork, as reported in The Irish Press of the 26th February, 1974. Deputy Lynch addressed himself to our main industry, agriculture. In his statement, as reported in The Irish Press, he said that 1973 was an exceptionally good year for farmers, that £34 million was the profit margin——

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

No thanks to the Parliamentary Secretary.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

——and that while cattle prices were depressed at present he was quite satisfied that farm income would increase again in 1974. I must say that I am in agreement with Deputy Lynch and not with the ologoning of Deputy Collins and Deputy O'Leary last night and tonight who are endeavouring to undermine confidence in our main industry. A few months ago I read in a newspaper what Deputy Lynch, the Leader of the Opposition, said at a constituency meeting in Waterford. He thought farmers were sufficiently well off now and that it was about time they came within the income tax net.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

Give the quotation.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I am summarising.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please. Will Deputies please allow the Parliamentary Secretary to continue?

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I am summarising what the former Taoiseach had to say to the constituency meeting in Waterford a few months ago.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

In the interest of honesty, the Parliamentary Secretary should give the quotation.

A Deputy

Can we have the quotation?

Mr. L'Estrange

The Parliamentary Secretary is not suffering from loss of memory. We remember exactly what the ex-Taoiseach said.

A Deputy

Deputy L'Estrange has broken his silence.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies must cease interrupting.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

It would be reasonable to assume that if Fianna Fáil had continued in office and if Deputy Lynch continued as Taoiseach, we might be discussing this question which he posed to his followers in County Waterford, that is, the question of taxation. I do not propose to labour that point any further but if Deputy Fitzgerald visits the Library he will find the relevant information. Deputy Collins put forward a vaguely-worded motion deploring the decline in farm income. All of us deplore a decline in the income of any section of the community. We would like to see prices for pigs and calves continue at the 1973 level. The Deputy is trying to show how concerned he is about the farmers' welfare and, by implication, he is attempting to assert that the Government and the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries are not taking adequate steps to safeguard the interests of the farmers.

I do not wish to throw bouquets at the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries but it has been acknowledged by farming organisations and newspaper commentators that he is doing an excellent job for Irish farmers. I have no doubt he has their confidence. As the Minister mentioned last night, when he went before farmers in a constituency favourable to Fianna Fáil where they got two Deputies out of three, that decision was reversed and the confidence of farmers in County Monaghan in the Government contributed to the result of the election.

I have contributed to many discussions on agriculture during the years and I am satisfied, as I am sure are Deputies Collins and O'Leary, that the Minister is doing everything he possibly can to help the industry both in and outside the country. We know that because of our membership in the EEC he is frequently outside the country fighting the cause of the farmers. He has an exceptionally difficult task in Brussels. When Deputy Gibbons was Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries he said that once we got into the EEC the farmers could sit back and the money would roll in, with increased prices for milk and pigs——

Mr. J. Gibbons

The Parliamentary Secretary is purporting to quote me. Will he please give the quotation?

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I am summarising but I am sure the Deputy will not disagree with my statement——

Mr. J. Gibbons

I disagree with everything the Parliamentary Secretary has said.

An Ceann Comhairle

I understand the Deputy intends to speak in the debate when he will have an opportunity to make his comments.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

The Deputy indicated that so far as farmers were concerned the EEC was all roses with no thorns. There are a few thorns and I am sure everyone appreciates that fact. I am not reflecting in any way on our membership of the EEC but when Deputy Gibbons was Minister did he not foresee that if prices for our milk products and for beef increased there would be a corresponding increase in inputs? It is clear he did not but that is what has happened. In fact, it would have happened on a larger scale if Deputy Gibbons were sitting on the seat occupied by the present Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries.

Deputy Collins referred to the fact that cattle numbers had increased but that fodder stocks were not adequate to meet the increased demand. He wondered why we did not advise the people last year to sell cattle. The Minister answered that last night: he indicated in early autumn that it would be advisable to sell surplus stock. I remember Deputy Gibbons and Deputy Crinion last June or July raising the question of selling young cattle which were fetching very good prices then——

Mr. J. Gibbons

It referred to exporting. Is the Parliamentary Secretary in favour of that?

An Ceann Comhairle

I would ask the Deputy not to interrupt. He will have an opportunity to make his own speech.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

There was not much foresight shown by Deputy Gibbons or Deputy Crinion. In this House they advised the farmers not to adopt this course and they implied that prices would continue to increase. In addition, not being satisfied with answers given them at Question Time, they thought the matter of sufficient importance to raise it on the Adjournment. As a result, some people who might have sold their calves did not do so and, consequently, they suffered a loss. Shortly afterwards there was an EEC directive that had something to say about the export of calves.

My information is that the prices in any of the EEC countries for calves or weanlings at the moment do not compare with prices obtaining last year. There is nothing the Minister, the Government, or Fianna Fáil can do about that. It is something we must accept, we must make the best of it.

Mr. J. Gibbons

We have the lowest prices for beef and calves in the EEC.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Deputy O'Leary said we should try to find a market for calves at enhanced prices. He imagines this is available in any of the EEC countries and that it can be done at a charge of 12½ per cent but this is not the case. The Deputy seems to think that we need pay only a little more than £6 for a calf which will subsequently sell on the export market for £50 but that is not so.

Deputy O'Leary comes from a constituency somewhat similar to west Cork. He said the Minister will abolish farm building grants, water grants and other benefits to the farmers but that is not so. The Minister had to fall in line with EEC policy with regard to aids and helps to farmers to develop their holdings, for example, the installation of water supplies and the provision of outoffices.

Mr. J. O'Leary

Surely they could be initiated by way of another scheme?

Mr. M.P. Murphy

For the Deputy's information such grants are now available. We now have our farmers divided up into three classifications: the transitional, the development and the commercial.

Mr. J. Gibbons

They are divided all right.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I have all the available rates here but time does not permit me to give the figures. I advise Deputies like Deputy O'Leary who seemingly did not take the trouble of getting the memorandum setting out these grants and aids to do so without delay. The Deputy has no case on the question of farm building grants. He will find in the memorandum the grants that are now available. It would take up too much of the time at my disposal to give the figures but they are there. I hope that if he has misled any of his constituents through his lack of information he will give them the correct figures.

I accept that the prices of our young cattle are not too good at present. I also accept that every effort is being made by the Government, through the Minister, to get the last possible penny for our stock on the export market. That is being done. The same position applies in England; it applies in the Northern part of this country; and it applies in all the EEC countries. We know the fight the Minister has to make to get price increases in the Common Market. We know there are member states in the Common Market who are not too favourably disposed towards increasing the price of agricultural products. We knew that, or should have known it, before we joined the Common Market. That was a self-evident fact.

In Western European countries with a proportionately high population so far as the consuming public are concerned as against those in production, particularly in agricultural production, naturally the pendulum would be swinging towards trying to keep prices as far down the scale as possible. I am assuming that is happening and I am also assuming that our Minister is doing excellent work to try to get the pendulum swinging the other way. Instead of decrying him, as the new shadow Minister tried to do last night, in a situation such as this the Minister should have the support of the combined farming community and of Members of this House who are interested in farming.

The Minister dealt with the milk question last night. It can be accepted that milk prices are reasonably good. Deputy Gibbons was Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries and I know the problems the farming organisations had with him and his predecessors in trying to get an increase of 1d. or 2d. a gallon in the price of milk. We all know that 1d. or 2d. at that time was not nearly as much as 1p or 2p today, taking decimal currency into account. The Deputy should not laugh. People closely associated with him spent days in Upper Merrion Street in the wind and weather trying to get the Fianna Fáil Government—who, now in Opposition, are claiming to be so mindful of the farmers and farming interests—to meet them.

Mr. J. Gibbons

The increase in 1972 was the biggest in history.

Mr. Creed

Bigger than last year?

Mr. J. Gibbons

Yes.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I am sure the farming community will accept that in the present Minister they have somebody who excels Deputy Gibbons and his predecessor, to put it mildly. At that time it was very difficult for representative members of the farming community and for delegates of the farming organisations to meet the Minister. The present Minister told us last night that he has discussed the agricultural position again and again with the heads of the farming organisations and other interested bodies. That is as it should be.

Mr. J. Gibbons

He did more than that. He put them all on State boards.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

That is very different from the time when Fianna Fáil were in office. Another question in which the country at large are very interested and which causes us a great deal of concern is the question of pigs. I am trying to select the issues which it is vital to discuss at present, whether they are palatable or otherwise. I am well aware that pig production is not showing very much profit this year as compared with last year. Possibly it is down £3 or £4 per pig. It may be said with justification that there is no profit at all.

Down through the years I advocated in this House the desirability of strengthening our pig industry in any way possible and particularly by enticing, if that term is appropriate, our small farmers, our cottiers and others to get into that industry. What is happening at present? What could Fianna Fáil do if they were on this side of the House? We have to sell our bacon at surplus prices, mainly across the water to Britain. There is not much demand for bacon at a big price at present. Unfortunately it is down to £620 this week. I appreciate that that is a small price having regard to the cost of feedingstuffs.

We had lengthy discussions here over the past weeks at Question Time and on other occasions on the price of feedingstuffs. It was reasonable to assume that farmers growing grain and cereals would be entitled to increases the same as other sections. We know that the price of barley has increased and that grant prices have increased to a level of possibly up to 100 per cent. We know this was the great question towards the end of 1973. So much so that it was felt that the Minister for Industry and Commerce should not impose any control at all on the prices of feedingstuffs but let them find their own level through fair competition. In decontrolling the price of feedingstuffs the Minister was acting in accordance with the united voice of the farming organisations and of most Deputies, particularly, as I understand it, those who are supposedly the main spokesmen on agriculture in the Fianna Fáil benches.

I cannot accept that exorbitant profits are being made. We have facts and figures in the Department. We know there is a divergence in prices varying from one part of the country to another. The Minister dealt adequately with that last night when he indicated the prevailing average prices here, in England, and in Northern Ireland. I accept that the problem of the pig industry is a difficult one. I hope people who are in pig production will continue in it because I have not got the slightest doubt that there is bound to be an increase in the price of bacon in the not too distant future. It must come, of necessity, by virtue of the fact that our complaint here is similar to the complaints of pig producers in Britain and pig producers on the Continent.

It is no harm to bear in mind also, the fact that another matter having an adverse effect on our selling powers is the increase in production by continental producers. I understand production in the former Six Members of the Community has increased by more than 6 per cent and in Germany alone the increase is of the order of 10 per cent.

I believe I can say, without fear of contradiction, that so far as the pig industry is concerned it is engaging the special attention of the Minister. Time, possibly, did not allow him last night to emphasise that point. At home and abroad every possible step that can be taken is being taken to safeguard the industry and bring back profitability.

Mr. J. Gibbons

Could the Deputy tell us what these steps are?

Mr. M.P. Murphy

A very simple question. The steps are being taken in Europe and at home.

Mr. J. Gibbons

What is being done?

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

A simple question coming from a simple man. What does the Deputy think any Minister would be doing? Putting forward facts and the costs of production. Is that not the obvious approach? Surely that is so obvious there is no need to ask such a simple question.

Mr. J. Gibbons

If the Minister is doing something he is certainly not producing results.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

The manoeuvres of Fianna Fáil, and particularly those of the new shadow Minister, will not gain any credibility in the country. This motion talks about deploring prices and implies that the Government are responsible. I stressed before and I stress it again now that there is no justification for that assertion. This Government, Labour and Fine Gael, are mindful of the interests of our main industry. We are anxious to see that our agriculturists get the same treatment as other sections of the community. I said at the outset that they are getting that treatment through the increases obtainable since this Government took office. We must bear in mind—I said this in the last Dáil—that we are not the sole managers now so far as agriculture is concerned. We are sharing management with the other eight Members of the Community. We have to try to make the Community work. It could not be made to work if the Minister were to agree with the suggestion made by Deputy O'Leary or Deputy Collins to use the power of veto.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Parliamentary Secretary might now come to his final remarks.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I do not think this motion serves any purpose other than the purpose Deputy Collins presumably has in mind of trying to sap the confidence of the farmers and gain a few extra votes for his party. I am satisfied the farmers have complete confidence in our Minister and in our Government.

Mr. J. Gibbons

I felt like applauding when the Parliamentary Secretary sat down. I thought the Minister performed with remarkable hard neck last evening but he has been, of course, completely outshone this evening by his Parliamentary Secretary. I never in my life listened to such a load of brazenfaced misrepresentation. Deputy Collins's motion in my opinion, and I offer my opinion with becoming modesty, is one designed by someone who is himself one of the people we are talking about; he is a farmer. It is always entertaining to hear the opinions of shopkeepers and people in other walks of life about how we, the farmers, are getting on and all the money we are making. If we were to take the Parliamentary Secretary at his word, we have never done so well. However, it is my opinion, as a farmer, that we are in a very serious position indeed and Deputy Collins's motion is no more than a statement of the facts.

On the other hand, the Minister's amendment is tendentious and misleading when he says it recognises there have been cases where individual farmers have suffered losses. By the Lord Harry, the Minister never said a truer word in his life. His amendment would seem to suggest two, three, 50 or 100. How many farmers in Monaghan——

Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries (Mr. Clinton)

The Deputy knows what they said.

Mr. J. Gibbons

—or Cavan, or west Cork, where the great proportion of our pigs are produced, would endorse that argument? Every man-jack is in serious trouble. Even the Parliamentary Secretary, whose confidence in his Minister is, shall we say, almost incredible—it has to be seen to be believed—did allow himself to say that those who are feeding pigs at the moment are not making any money. He went on to say there was nothing he or anybody else could do about that and the Minister was doing all kinds of clever things here and in Europe to alleviate the situation. I asked him by way of interjection—I hope he forgives my rudeness—what things the Minister was doing. He did not tell us. He described my question as a simple question. It was a very simple question. I asked what are the great things the Minister is doing for the pig producers. I do not know and I do not think the Parliamentary Secretary knows.

I want to refer briefly to what the Minister said last night. He seemed quite happy and quite smug. Someone in the Department took out a percentage, a vital statistic, for him preparatory, I suppose, to this debate and told him there had been an increase of about 32 per cent in farm incomes during the past year.

Mr. Clinton

The Deputy's leader said 34.

Mr. J. Gibbons

I will try to analyse this in a minute but I want to remind the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary that the year prior to that there was an increase of 38 per cent in farm incomes, an all-time record, and I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to make a note of that because it is a useful piece of information. When the Minister was giving out the laurels, mostly to himself, he dwelt with great pleasure on the fact that there had been a substantial increase in the price of milk supplied to creameries. He monopolised all the credit for this himself. Then he went on to talk about other areas in farming production—pigs, beef and sheep. In these areas he ascribed their condition to reasons other than his own cleverness. Everybody in the sheep business, including myself, knows that what kept the sheep market open last year was the comparatively competitive position of sheep meat in the European market as against other forms of meat.

When the Minister went on to discuss beef production he had the effrontery to say—not for the first time, mind you; I have heard him say it before—that the farmers had only themselves to blame. They spent their money foolishly in the year. They bought their cattle too dearly and, worse again, they failed to provide fodder for the cattle they had bought. What the Minister was telling those farmers was that they were incompetent, bad managers and incompetent, bad managers have no place in Irish farming today. If you extend that argument further——

Mr. Clinton

Those are the Deputy's words, of course.

Mr. J. Gibbons

Those are the people who lost all that money in the cattle trade in the last six months especially. They are in the wrong job. They should get out of farming altogether. The implication was almost that if they had been competent and clever they would not have lost the money at all. The cruel fact is that since the 8th of May last year until quite recently, when the grass began to improve again, there was a steady dropping away of live weight prices per hundred weight at every single market which took place in this country. I do not think we have ever seen in the history of this country such a calamitous drop in the price of cattle, certainly not in the last 30 years.

Mr. Clinton

Not since 1965.

Mr. J. Gibbons

That was a very brief, small and acute condition that very quickly righted itself.

Mr. L'Estrange

Some calves were down to 10 shillings each.

Mr. J. Gibbons

The Minister made some reference to barley production and, again, he congratulated himself.

Mr. Clinton

No, I did not.

Mr. J. Gibbons

He told the House that, whereas farmers in 1972 were getting about £27 or £28 a ton from the combine for barley, the condition this time was that they were getting about £44. I would put it somewhat less—£42 or £43, certainly in the south Leinster area. That is a very good increase. What escaped the Minister's attention and what I tried to get some information about from his colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce but failed, is this. How does it come about that the barley going into stores—possibly with as low as 14 per cent to 15 per cent moisture —can be coming out at 65? We are told by the Government that nothing can be done to get the price of pig feed down. Surely this is the greatest nonsense. Surely if the Minister is so active on behalf of the pig feeders of west Cork and the other pig feeding areas in this country, that area could have been investigated. There was not a single gesture about it and there is no doubt at all that there has been very serious profiteering in this area. The profiteering is being carried out at the expense of the people who can stand it least, the small farmers operating in poor land who cannot readily turn to any other line of production. I was talking about land of differing quality in the Counties Cavan and Monaghan and in west Cork. They happen also to be areas where there is a very large proportion of our pigs produced.

The Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary have done a grave enough job in dressing up the terrible facts but the facts are very terrible. There is nobody denying that people in milk production, sending milk to creameries, have been enjoying a rising standard of living and it is about time too. It is satisfactory that this is so.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Mr. J. Gibbons

But it is nothing to crow about because only at long last are milk producers coming into their own. They, too, have suffered losses.

Mr. L'Estrange

Under Blaney's two-tier price system.

Mr. J. Gibbons

I did away with that.

Mr. Clinton

Just in the nick of time.

Mr. J. Gibbons

Oddly enough, I agree with the Parliamentary Secretary that even the people who are getting a satisfactory price for milk are losing heavily in the prices they obtained for their calves. Many people who are in concentrated milk production do not keep calves. I sincerely hope that the trade will rally. I believe it will rally because I have the feeling that the Commission in Brussels will take certain steps which will remedy the situation in the beef area.

Before concluding, I want to recommend certain other courses to the Minister for his consideration. There is no denying the fact that even milk producers, who are at the top of the income scale, acre for acre, suffered very serious losses as a result of the drop in calf prices. As late as the other day you could buy calves for £15 and that is a far cry from the prices going 12 months ago. Even the Parliamentary Secretary, with his infinite craft and brazenfacedness, could not say anything but that people who are in pigs, at the present time are losing money. You need not be a great mathematician to work out the celebrated problem known as the hogcorn ratio and deduce from that, even if you were unfortunate enough to be involved in pig production yourself, that all those people are in very serious trouble. Thousands of them have nothing else to which to resort. It is no good for the Parliamentary Secretary to be bleating about the tough conditions in the British market. Things were never easy in the British market. In fact, as members of the EEC, the weapons we have now, to improve conditions in the British market are better than we ever had before. The cattle trade and the people involved in it are in a very bad situation. However, I am confident it will rally.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary or some other member of his party suggest that it is our purpose to weaken confidence? Why should we want to do that? Surely our biggest national asset is our cattle herd. A very significant pointer as to the prosperity or otherwise of that cattle herd are the price of calves and of young stock generally. Surely confidence has been shattered in recent weeks and it is through no fault of this party or anybody in it. That is not what this party exists for. This party was created to improve this country, build it up and that is what we have always turned our hand to with remarkable success. We are not ready yet to accept lectures on how we should conduct our affairs from the Parliamentary Secretary or anybody else in the Fine Gael or Labour Parties.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

People like you did it this time 12 months.

Mr. J. Gibbons

Be quiet, Parliamentary Secretary. Go back to your friends and give them more salmon licences.

I have a document here which was circulated in my constituency 12 months ago. It was of a kind supplied to all constituencies. Photographs of the candidates were sent to the electorate. There was a picture of the Taoiseach and the policy statement included the statement that one of the economic aims of the new Government would be to stabilise prices. It was said that Fine Gael in Government would immediately introduce strict price control. The statement also said that small farmers would be helped and that people other than farmers would not be allowed to speculate in land. A vigorous land reclamation programme was mentioned and it was said that long-term leasing of land would be encouraged at low interest rates.

I want to talk about these very solemn promises. The promises were expressed very emphatically by speakers on behalf of what are now called the National Coalition. There was a firm undertaking given to everybody, including farmers, that prices would immediately stop rising. In the history of this country no one ever saw such a calamitous escalation of prices as has occurred in the past year. The use of fertilisers, possibly even vital fertilisers like phosphates, will decrease because they cost too much. That will react unfavourably on farm production and on the farmers' confidence about which the Parliamentary Secretary is so worried. I am pleased to note that the Parliamentary Secretary is worrying about me and the other farmers.

Mr. Clinton

More gloom.

Mr. J. Gibbons

In the history of Irish politics there never was such a cynical promise made. This promise has been cynically betrayed. It affected housewives in Dublin, but most of all it affected the farming community. The most important national asset we have is our cattle herd.

There are some very serious obstacles in the EEC to the alleviation of our present situation. The demand is on the Commission for better guide prices. This move is being led at present by the French Minister who is, I understand, holding out for a 17 per cent increase. He will be opposed by the Germans and the British who will try to deal with the Commission's 10 per cent as a maximum figure, if they do not fight that.

Be that as it may, outside total monetary union we will never really have a satisfactory and stable situation in the cattle trade. There are certain measures that should be adopted. Commissioner Lardinois speaking in Strasbourg seemed to suggest that certain restrictions on the dumping of frozen beef into the EEC should be contemplated. He made another very important suggestion to me personally. Except for one colleague I was the only Irish person present when he spoke. It was at the time when our other colleagues departed at the crack of dawn to take up their positions here when there was panic about a division.

I will attempt to paraphrase what M. Lardinois said. He said that certain action was open to the Irish Government in the monetary field which would guarantee the Irish farmers very substantial increases in their incomes and that these increases would be produced very quickly. I took him to mean the introduction of a device which the Italians have benefited from for some considerable time. I took him to mean the introduction of the green £1, the green púnt, the Irish £1. I accept that this is an extremely complicated question. I do not pretend to understand all its implications. I am absolutely convinced that since the Commissioner was not speaking lightly when he spoke in the Parliament and since he did speak to us Irishmen we would do well to examine this as a matter of great urgency and possibly to accept the recommendation which he made. I urge this very strongly on the Minister.

Mr. Clinton

He did not tell the Deputy who made the suggestion to him?

Mr. J. Gibbons

No, he did not say that. I suppose the Minister is going to claim he did so? Clever man. What is material——

Mr. Clinton

I am not sure it is possible.

Mr. J. Gibbons

——and important is that the incomes of the people in farming other than in milk production have suffered very severely in recent years. If this measure can give them an increase in their incomes it should be adopted. It is as simple and as brief as that. The quantity of frozen beef imported into the EEC from third countries in the last 12 months approached one million tons. Obviously this is having serious effects and producing distortions in France and in this country. It is producing more distortions in this country than anywhere else because nowhere within the EEC has the price of cattle dropped so much below the intervention price as it has in this country.

The Parliamentary Secretary was saying that the situation was the same in Great Britain. It is not. In Great Britain they are breaking even at intervention price. We are at 89 per cent of that price, and that is 11 per cent less than the British. This is nothing to be smug about. It is significant that the Parliamentary Secretary should so lightly dismiss this extraordinary circumstance. The fact is that because of the distortions set up in the European market by the peculiar monetary situation we are being driven back again, willy-nilly, to the British market which we had thought to break out of to some extent at any rate, although I do not say we should abandon it forever.

We were all confident and are still confident that we can establish ourselves in the mainland markets again, but effectively we have been driven out of those markets since the introduction of the scarcity regulations last August. When one contemplates the vastly increased size of our herd, we realise that something must be done urgently. Britain will not be in a position to absorb a large number of stores, such as we normally send them.

The Parliamentary Secretary said, somewhat sanctimoniously, that we should all be on the side of the Minister in his negotiations for this country in Brussels. We are. We accept that he is a Minister of the Irish Government acting for the Irish nation, and he will have all our support while the work he is doing is productive. We have to be satisfied that this is in fact the case. When I invited the Parliamentary Secretary to say in one area, the area of pigs, what exactly the Minister was doing, the Parliamentary Secretary was evidently unable to say. May I inquire how much time I have left?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has exactly five minutes.

Mr. J. Gibbons

I want to sum up and to say that the Minister was displaying form that is unusual, I think, for him. He was being slightly boastful when he sought to arrogate to himself credit for milk prices which really derived from the intervention prices for butter and skim milk powder, £734 per ton for butter and £310 per ton for skim milk powder. At the risk of being called a knocker, I say this is no thanks at all to the Minister.

Mr. Clinton

We played no part in the negotiations, in other words.

Mr. J. Gibbons

If the Minister wants to take credit for the increase in milk prices, he is very welcome to do it——

Mr. Clinton

Partial credit.

Mr. J. Gibbons

——but if he does, he will have to take the blame for the disastrous situation that obtains in other areas.

Mr. Clinton

I do not accept that there is any disastrous situation.

Mr. J. Gibbons

Above all, I say to the Minister that there is no real justification for the way in which animal feed costs have shot up, and I want to advocate to him now that before the next season is upon us for barley he should consider a scheme of grants for the home storage of barley.

Mr. Clinton

It is there already.

Mr. J. Gibbons

The grants are not nearly good enough. If they were any good, especially with the escalating costs of building, they would have been installed long ago. The good-time Charlies are making £20 to £22 per ton for the mere removal of barley, and they charge the farmers cartage on the barley for which they pay the £43. The farmer has to pay for the delivery of that barley. He has to pay for its delivery to his door and he has to pay for its delivery from his door. The middleman sits by and collects his £22, and we are told that it is a very difficult problem, that nothing can be done about it. I think there is.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Most of the so-called middlemen are co-operative groups.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order. The Deputy has only a minute to conclude.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

He interrupted a few times himself.

Mr. J. Gibbons

I do not know whether the Parliamentary Secretary would be au fait with the business of growing or selling cereals. I doubt it. I want to tell him that I am. I am in the business all my life. I am in the cattle business also and I find it rather difficult to accept advice and guidance from people like the Parliamentary Secretary who uses other sources for his information. Indeed, however bad they be, he should go back and check with them.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy might now make his concluding remarks.

Mr. J. Gibbons

I would recommend Deputy Collins's motion to the House. I did not know that there was a device involved in the Minister's amendment which precluded the House from having a show of faces on this motion. It is a pity because I want to see all the Fine Gael and Labour Deputies, especially those who represent rural constituencies, trooping into the lobbies, standing over the exploitation of small farmers, and that is what it is—there are several examples of it like the example of the stockpiling of fertilisers—and standing over the Government that, to our eyes in any case, has not lifted a little finger to do anything about it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Donal Creed.

Mr. Creed

Might I inquire when I have to conclude?

An Ceann Comhairle

I shall be calling on Deputy Gerard Collins to reply at 7.15.

Mr. Creed

That puts me at a great disadvantage.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has ten minutes.

Mr. Creed

What we have been discussing here yesterday evening and this evening is what could be termed real farm incomes. It is very difficult to qualify the income of a farmer for one week or one month, no matter what type of farming he is doing. The only thing we can do is to assess the farmer's income for the year gone by and to consider briefly what is in store for 1974. Like the last speaker, I am a farmer myself, being involved in dairy farming and mixed farming. I claim that 1973 was the best year the Irish farmer ever had.

Mr. Crinion

How could the Deputy say that?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Crinion, we had a very orderly debate up to now. Let us keep it so.

Mr. Creed

He has just come into the House. The motion here before us, which was put down by the Fianna Fáil spokesman on Agriculture, is not sincere, because it is criticising the Minister who was Minister for Agriculture in 1973, the best year the Irish farmer ever had. Let us take dairying over the past year. I was amazed when I heard Deputy Gibbons says that during the Fianna Fáil term of office the dairy farmer got the biggest increase ever in 50 years for a gallon of milk. Last year the price was increased by 4.5p. It is not long since people delivered milk to the creameries for that price and lower. 4.5p is almost a shilling a gallon increase.

Mr. Haughey

The Deputy should not mention a shilling a gallon.

Mr. Creed

Calves last year were making between £50 and £60, which brought a considerable cash benefit to the farming community. If the Opposition Deputies who spoke here were sincere they would accept that, because it is a fact and it is accepted by the farming community. It is not so long since in Deputy Collins's own constituency the farming organisations and the farming community there congratulated the Minister on the job he was doing.

The price of beef was also at a very high level last year and brought a considerable income to the farming community. I am glad that at long last the Irish farmers are being rewarded for the energy and effort they put into their way of life. It is our major industry and we should all take pride in the fact that 1973 was a good year. The farmers themselves were the first to admit it.

However let us deal with what is going to happen in 1974. While it has not yet been announced, I expect that in May, 1974, there will be a further increase in the price of milk. This is very necessary and will be very welcome. What the Minister should be doing is encouraging as many people as possible to go into the dairying industry because, as is generally accepted, there is a good future for dairying in the context of the EEC. I have no doubt that the natural advantage of our cheap production costs will benefit the dairy industry considerably. Therefore any of those who have left dairying are preparing to go back into it because they can see a good future in it.

In regard to beet, there is a price increase from £7.70 to £9.20 for 1974. This was a very favourable agreement which was accepted by the Beet Growers' Association and by the farming community. I am glad this means an increase to the beet growers and the farming community generally.

There was also an increase in respect of vegetables and horticulture in 1974, in some instances as high as 20 percent and this is a big increase for the farming community. Admittedly, the cost of production has gone up but at least they have got an increase in the price of their products and this is what matters. There is a big increase in the case of malting barley and a favourable deal has been negotiated with which the farming community have expressed satisfaction. I am informed that just now in mid-spring quite a lot of preparation is being made, given favourable weather, for sowing grain and early potatoes. No effort by the Opposition will undermine the confidence of the farmers. For that reason I say this motion is not sincere. The co-ops which are owned by the farming community are in a very healthy and strong financial position.

The Parliamentary Secretary and the previous speaker spoke of the pigs and bacon industry. What the Parliamentary Secretary said is true. At this stage the profit from pig producing is very little, if any. This is a tragedy. I blame the people who are now crying aloud about it. If we could confine the pig and poultry industry to the small farming community, we would solve much of the small farmer's problem. It is well to examine what happened in the fifties and sixties. We encouraged big combines to take over the poultry industry which is now completely taken over. In the case of the pig industry, for example, we grant-aided people who had no connection with farming and were not involved in it. We helped them to take over the pig industry and take the livelihood from the small farmers.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has one minute.

Mr. Creed

As far as the pig industry is concerned the people who put down this motion have much to answer for. I have been almost nine years in the House and I have seen Fianna Fáil Ministers for Agriculture and Fisheries who tried to divide and conquer the farming community. Because of their attitude down through the years they have succeeded in organising the farming community and I have no doubt that the industry is safe in the hands of the present Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries.

Mr. G. Collins

Having listened attentively to the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries who, I gather, has spoken for only the second time in this House on agriculture over a period of 12 months and has only done so now because the motion on behalf of Fianna Fáil made him do so, I am more convinced than ever that the Labour-Fine Gael Government, this Dublin-based Government have no real sympathy or understanding for the farm families. Surely the Minister's contribution in this too-short debate confirms that it is an urban-minded and union-dominated Administration and that it is totally unaware that 80 per cent of our farmers are engaged in an increasingly grinding struggle to win a livelihood from small farms which are barely economic.

We heard charges of insularity against me because of what I said, because of my fight for the small farmers I represent here. As a matter of interest and education for the Minister, I would have more small farmers in the smallest parish of my constituency than the Minister would have in all the Dublin constituencies put together including his own. These charges, made because of my effort to stand up and be counted, are positive proof that the Labour-Fine Gael Government are not fighting or dedicating themselves to fighting the case of our small farmers in the EEC councils or anywhere else. If one looks at the composition of this political alliance of Labour and Fine Gael, could one expect otherwise? On one hand we have Fine Gael, commonly known as the ranchers party, described publicly as the big farmers party by no less a person than their leader, when he made his last speech on agriculture. One need only look at the Fine Gael Deputies and see how many of them would be eligible for classification under the new farm modernisation scheme as small farmers or transitional farmers, as we now call them. It is obvious that well-to-do farmers have always been catered for by Fine Gael——

Mr. L'Estrange

Look over your shoulder.

Mr. G. Collins

——and that they always gave their support to Fine Gael. But let there be no mistake about it, the small farmers have not forgotten the present Taoiseach's philosophy of the 100-cow farmer. On the Labour side of the House, which is, unfortunately, empty, it is fair to say that we might have one or two members with a genuine interest in the small farmer but he—or they, if there is more than one—must be submerged by urban-based colleagues who dominate the party, these so called trade unionists who never did anything and at present have no intention of doing anything to protect the rural community which is based on the small farm community.

That being the situation, it is no wonder that Labour and Fine Gael representatives in the European Parliament are poles apart. Fine Gael are allied to the Christian Democrats and the Labour Party representatives shelter under the umbrella of the Socialists whose avowed aim, as we know, is the destruction of the common agricultural policy as we know it and upon which our existence as an agricultural community depends.

My motion states:

That Dáil Éireann deplores the serious decline in farm income which has been aggravated by the enormous increases in farming costs.

The Minister, his Parliamentary Secretary—I am sure he will not take offence if I liken him to "His Master's Voice" after his performance tonight—and his backbenchers must recognise that, despite what their representatives said during this debate, the position of Irish agriculture today is as stated in my motion. I presented my case in this involuntary debate—involuntary so far as the Coalition Government are concerned—in a fair and forthright manner. It is now on the records of this House. It was not challenged by the Minister or any of the speakers who came after him. It is very interesting to note, again from the record, that the Minister who had 30 minutes to make his case against my motion, which he knows to be a true and genuine one, spent 20 minutes out of his 30 precious minutes haranguing me about many things, including the Monaghan by-election. This election is a thing of the past. However, as it was mentioned, I should like to say that the Coalition candidate struggled home by a short head——

Mr. L'Estrange

But we got there.

Mr. G. Collins

——by less than one per cent of the electorate.

Mr. L'Estrange

"Battleship" won the Grand National by a short head and he is still on the record.

Mr. G. Collins

We have this eight-month-old Labour-Fine Gael Government, this self-styled all-star Government, asking the electorate for another chance. They got their man home. I do not deny that fact. They would not have got him home but for the fact that they got help from various sources including the Communist Party and Aontacht Éireann. As the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs is in the House let me add that they barely got their candidate home despite the tremendous efforts of the Minister and those working with him.

I will treat the personal allegations of the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries against me with the contempt they deserve by ignoring them. Let him not think that the smoke-screen he tried to raise will cloud the dismal picture which unfortunately exists in agriculture today. The fact that he deliberately wasted two-thirds of his debating time in an old-fashioned and outmoded style of harangue will be interpreted widely by the farming community for what it was. It was nothing other than dismal failure on his part and on the part of his Government to use their time wisely and intelligently in bringing benefits to the many who have their backs to the wall and who are ruing the day that this country was yoked to yet another Coalition Government.

The Minister is trying to blame, directly or indirectly, the farming organisations for the Government's panic actions during and after the Monaghan by-election when they decontrolled the prices of feedingstuffs. The ordinary farmer blames the Government, and particularly the Minister for Industry and Commerce, for allowing the situation to develop as it did. Of course consultation is very important and the Minister seemingly——

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Collins.

Mr. G. Collins

Consultation is wise. One should seek opinions and advice. Having done that, the manly thing then is to make one's own decisions and to be prepared to stand over them. The Minister's actions in this regard have been most unwise and many people will suffer. He seems to have a fixation about consultation, and it is right that he should. I respectfully suggest to him and the Government that we and the public at large should know that consultations should begin in this House. That is why this institution is here. Let those elected to speak on behalf of the people have the opportunity of saying what they want. The Minister is once again being less than honest with Dáil Éireann if he expects us to accept his interpretation of consultation. In November last the Minister did not consult Deputies in regard to what their views might be on the decontrolling of prices of feedingstuffs. If he had done so he might not have made, in conjunction with the Minister for Industry and Commerce, that grave and most harmful blunder.

Mr. Clinton

I do not remember Fianna Fáil consulting with me when they were in office.

Mr. G. Collins

Reintroduce the Estimate which has been hanging over us since November and let us hear what the elected representatives on both sides of the House want to say. If Deputy Creed has difficulty in expressing himself in the time available this evening he has only the Chief Whip of his own party to blame because he is not allowing the Estimate on Agriculture to come before this House for discussion.

Mr. L'Estrange

Did the Fianna Fáil Whip ask for the Estimate to be reintroduced?

Mr. G. Collins

I say that the Minister should consult by all means but he should do it properly at all times. The Minister had nothing to say about the alleged fertiliser stockpiling scandal. He could not find time to say a word to the people involved in beef production, whose confidence is at a very low ebb. He could not find time to condemn the merchants who made a profitable racket out of the sale of beet pulp. He could not find time to say a word about our glasshouse industries which have their backs to the wall.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. G. Collins

He could not say anything worthwhile to the 174,000 calf owners of my own county alone who are having their incomes from this sector halved this year. He could not find time to say anything worthwhile to the pig and poultry producers other than to tell them to hang on and maybe things would get better. He could not find time to say anything about the price differential in feedingstuffs of up to £25 per ton which we all know exists. Let him look at the prices in County Louth and compare them with the prices in County Waterford if he doubts me.

Mr. Clinton

And compare the prices with the North of Ireland and England.

Mr. Collins

He could not find time to say whether his Government now propose to decontrol fertiliser prices. He could not find time to say whether he favours a public inquiry——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I must put the motion now.

Mr. G. Collins

I will bring my remarks to a conclusion now. It is obvious the Minister wasted 20 of the 30 minutes he used to reply to my motion. Despite the incompetence of the Government Fianna Fáil still have great faith and confidence in the ordinary commonsense of the Irish farmer and we believe that the many insurmountable problems they are faced with today will be overcome by them despite the unintentional efforts—and I will be that reasonable with the Minister—of the Government to thwart them in every way.

Mr. Coughlan

How many of them are on the dole?

Question proposed: "That the amendment be made."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 65; Níl, 61.

Tá

• Barry, Peter.
• Barry, Richard.
• Begley, Michael.
• Belton, Luke.
• Belton, Paddy.
• Bermingham, Joseph.
• Bruton, John.
• Burke, Dick.
• Burke, Joan T.
• Burke, Liam.
• Byrne, Hugh.
• Clinton, Mark A.
• Cluskey, Frank.
• Collins, Edward.
• Conlan, John F.
• Coogan, Fintan.
• Cooney, Patrick M.
• Corish, Brendan.
• Cosgrave, Liam.
• Costello, Declan.
• Coughlan, Stephen.
• Creed, Donal.
• Crotty, Kieran.
• Cruise-O'Brien, Conor.
• Desmond, Barry.
• Desmond, Eileen.
• Dockrell, Henry P.
• Dockrell, Maurice.
• Donegan, Patrick S.
• Donnellan, John.
• Dunne, Thomas.
• Enright, Thomas.
• Esmonde, John G.
• Finn, Martin.
• Fitzpatrick, Tom (Cavan).
• Flanagan, Oliver J.
• Governey, Desmond.
• Griffin, Brendan.
• Hegarty, Patrick.
• Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
• Jones, Denis F.
• Keating, Justin.
• Kelly, John.
• Kyne, Thomas A.
• L'Estrange, Gerald.
• Lynch, Gerard.
• McLaughlin, Joseph.
• McMahon, Larry.
• Malone, Patrick.
• Murphy, Michael P.
• O'Brien, Fergus.
• O'Connell, John.
• O'Donnell, Tom.
• O'Sullivan, John L.
• Pattison, Seamus.
• Reynolds, Patrick J.
• Ryan, John J.
• Ryan, Richie.
• Spring, Dan.
• Staunton, Myles.
• Taylor, Frank.
• Timmins, Godfrey.
• Toal, Brendan.
• Tully, James.
• White, James.

Níl

• Ahern, Liam.
• Allen, Lorcan.
• Andrews, David.
• Barrett, Sylvester.
• Blaney, Neil T.
• Brennan, Joseph.
• Breslin, Cormac.
• Briscoe, Ben.
• Browne, Seán.
• Brugha, Ruairí.
• Burke, Raphael P.
• Callanan, John.
• Calleary, Seán.
• Carter, Frank.
• Colley, George.
• Collins, Gerard.
• Connolly, Gerard.
• Crinion, Brendan.
• Cunningham, Liam.
• Daly, Brendan.
• Davern, Noel.
• de Valera, Vivion.
• Dowling, Joe.
• Fahey, Jackie.
• Farrell, Joseph.
• Faulkner, Pádraig.
• Fitzgerald, Gene.
• Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin Central).
• Timmons, Eugene.
• Tunney, Jim.
• Walsh, Seán.
• French, Seán.
• Geoghegan, John.
• Gibbons, Hugh.
• Gibbons, James.
• Gogan, Richard P.
• Haughey, Charles.
• Healy, Augustine A.
• Hussey, Thomas.
• Kenneally, William.
• Kitt, Michael F.
• Lalor, Patrick J.
• Lemass, Noel T.
• Leonard, James.
• Loughnane, William.
• Lynch, Celia.
• Lynch, Jack.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• MacSharry, Ray.
• Molloy, Robert.
• Moore, Seán.
• Murphy, Ciarán.
• Nolan, Thomas.
• Noonan, Michael.
• O'Connor, Timothy.
• O'Leary, John.
• O'Malley, Desmond.
• Power, Patrick.
• Smith, Patrick.
• Wilson, John P.
• Wyse, Pearse.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kelly and B. Desmond; Níl, Deputies Lalor and Browne.

Amendment declared carried.

Motion, as amended, agreed to.