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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 27 Feb 1975

Vol. 278 No. 9

Developments in the European Communities—Third Report and Fourth Report: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann take note of the reports: Developments in the European Communities—Third Report and Fourth Report.

Section 5 of the European Communities Act, 1972, provides that the Government shall make a report twice yearly to each House of the Oireachtas on Developments in the European Communities. This motion covers the two reports presented for 1974, which relate to developments in the Communities from November, 1973, to December, 1974. There are certain real advantages in taking the two reports together at this time: it allows the House to debate Ireland's second full year as a member of the Communities, to take stock of the state of the Communities on the eve of the Dublin meeting of heads of Government on 10th and 11th March and to look at the issues which will be facing the Communities in the months ahead.

In order to keep Deputies informed of general developments the major activities of the Communities since preparation of the fourth report are outlined in the supplementary report which was circulated yesterday. The period covered by the supplementary report will, of course, be treated in full in the fifth report, and will be debated in this House in due course.

Deputies will have noticed certain changes in the third and fourth reports as compared with previous reports. In response to requests from the House the range of subjects covered has been extended and more detailed information has been given on proposals and decisions. The most significant innovation however has been the inclusion in Annex II of information on grants, loans and subsidies which have been approved for Ireland or which are awaiting decision. The amounts of moneys involved—more than £90 million had been approved in grants, loans and subsidies for 1974 at the time the fourth report was prepared—indicate the large financial transfers to Ireland which membership of the Community has entailed.

The period covered by the two reports begins and ends with meetings of heads of Government—the Copenhagen Summit Conference of December, 1973, and the Paris meeting of heads of Government last December. The intervening period has been a testing time for Community institutions and Community policies. The ambitions of the Paris Summit of October, 1972, and of the Copenhagen Summit were not fulfilled and the major tasks which the Community has set itself were not all completed in the time envisaged. It proved impossible to reach agreement on the establishment of a regional development fund by 1st January, 1974, and to move to the second stage of economic and monetary union. The Community also encountered serious difficulties in agreeing on the policies to be followed in dealing with the energy crisis.

First, many member states experienced internal political difficulties involving changes of Government and of leadership. In some cases these changes brought with them a reassessment of policies and a reorientation of attitudes towards the Communities. In particular the Labour Government in the United Kingdom entered office with a commitment to seek a fundamental renegotiation of the terms of entry to the Communities. Progress in many essential areas of policy has been held up while the Community has considered the issues raised by the UK Government. The room for manoeuvre of British officials on committees and working groups and of British Ministers at Council meetings has been reduced and this has resulted in a certain lack of flexibility in the day-today negotiations and discussions within the Council's decision-making framework. In addition, I feel, there has been a reluctance to innovate, to consider new directions in policy, while the uncertainty about the UK's continued membership of the Community remains.

Secondly, there were the effects of enlargement itself. I think that we underestimate the extent of the readjustment required of the original Six, of the three new acceding states and of the Community institutions to the changed political and economic relationships. For Ireland accession to the Communities has entailed a great increase in effective participation in the formulation of economic and foreign policies at international level. It has also involved a reassessment of our relationships with the other eight member states and with the rest of the world on the many issues embraced by the European integration. It has taken time for the full implications of these changes to work themselves through our governmental and administrative structures and for us to gear up our administrative machine.

Other member states, and the Community's institutions have encountered similar difficulties. It is not hard therefore to see why the first 18 months of the enlarged Community were characterised by a certain confusion.

Thirdly, the member states did not foresee at the time of enlargement the dramatic changes which were, within little more than a year, to transform the world economy. The massive claims on the resources of the developed world which the raw material producers, particularly the oil producers, suddenly made intensified inflationary pressures within the Community and threatened a fall in employment. The continued growth in production which had formed the basis for the development of the Community and of its key social and economic policies could no longer be taken for granted.

This was the situation which the member states faced in the second half of 1974. The world economic crisis, coupled with adverse political developments, had contributed to a sense of drift within the Community. Happily the drift did not continue. From the middle of the year there were signs that the Community was at last beginning to tackle the grave problems with which it was confronted. For example, in June the Commission submitted to the Council a communication on a new energy policy strategy for the Community with the aim of increasing the security of the Community's energy supplies. In October the Council agreed on a scheme to raise Community loans which would be made available to member states in balance of payments difficulties caused by the increases in prices of petroleum products; and eight of the nine member states agreed to participate in the new International Energy Agency which was established in November. The most concrete manifestation of the improved climate in the Community was the Paris meeting of heads of Government on December 9th and 10th, 1974. This meeting produced a body of constructive guidelines and decisions for the future development of the Community. At the same time it avoided imposing on the member states and the institutions an unmanageable burden of work like that which emerged from the Paris Summit in October, 1972.

The success of the meeting had of course a particular importance for Ireland coming as it did at the beginning of our Presidency. It set out a series of concrete measures which would form part of the Community's work programme during the Presidency, it gave the necessary political impetus towards the solution of some apparently intractable problems, and the improved political climate augured well for fruitful co-operation and attempts at further integration in areas not specifically dealt with at the meeting.

As Deputies are aware, the Paris meeting of heads of Government represents the last of the old-style summits. These summits were essentially extra-Community, not governed by treaty procedures, and were not designed, in either practice or intent, to replace the Council of Ministers as the Community's decision-making body. Rather, their function was to take the sort of broad decisions which would lay down an overall sense of direction and provide the necessary orientation for the Community's work, while leaving it for the Council of Ministers to translate these guidelines into practical and detailed policy measures. Seen in this light it seems to me that the Paris meeting was very successful. The decision regarding the establishment of a regional fund fully illustrates this point, with the Council of Ministers now expected to finalise the implementing decision at its next meeting on 3rd and 4th March.

It should be remembered too, that the heads of Government also took important decisions dealing with other matters including the holding of regular thrice-yearly meetings at heads of Government level, direct elections to the European Parliament, reducing the use of unanimity in the Council of Ministers and the preparation of a comprehensive report on European union, as well as agreeing guidelines for combatting the grave economic crisis which now threatens not only the Community member states but the entire world. The work of translating these broad directional decisions into detailed policy measures now rests with the Council of Ministers.

A genuine evaluation of the achievements of the Paris meeting demands, however, not only that the meeting itself be seen in context, that is as it relates to the Council of Ministers, but also that we examine the decisions taken at that meeting in their entirety. Thus the success or failure of the meeting cannot be judged on the basis of our attitude towards the decision taken on one item, or group of items, of interest to us. Rather our ultimate assessment of the meeting should rest on the whole of its decision and on this basis I am confident that the meeting was a great success.

I am thinking in particular of the regional fund on which because of Ireland's rather direct interest it is quite natural that so much of the Opposition speeches have concentrated —that is, the Opposition speeches on the motion already begun on European integration. In particular in the debate on this motion Members expressed disappointment with the size of the fund. Clearly the Opposition, like the Government, would have preferred a larger fund with a greater sum available for Ireland. Not all our partners shared this view, however, and the outcome of lengthy and often extremely hard negotiations was the decision to establish a regional fund of 1,300 million units of accounts, of which 85 million units or some £35 million would be made available to Ireland for the years 1975-77. This is a welcome and substantial net inflow of money by any standards. Given the economic difficulties at present facing the Community, however, the establishment of so sizeable a fund represents a truly remarkable example of Community solidarity by our partners in which, despite their own internal problems, the economically stronger member states have given a practical demonstration of their determination to tackle the problems of regional imbalance which affect the weaker members, including Ireland.

The significance of the regional fund is added to when taken in conjunction with the firm rejection by the heads of Government of any recourse to protectionist measures as a means of tackling their economic difficulties. This rejection of protectionism and the parallel commitment of member states having a balance of payments surplus to stimulate domestic demand, although not strictly quantifiable, is perhaps the single most important decision of the Paris meeting from Ireland's point of view. Indeed, given our exposed position as a trading nation, a regional fund which could compensate us for the adverse effects of any recourse to protectionism by our partners hardly seems conceivable.

The fact, however, that not only have the heads of Government thus rejected protectionism but also, in the present difficult economic climate, have taken the necessary steps towards establishing a regional fund must surely confirm the success of the Paris meeting. The consensus reached at Paris on the Community's approach to dealing with economic policies, important as it is, should not lead us to minimise the problems which still exist. Over the coming weeks and months the question of economic revival will pose enormous problems for the Community at a time when most of the member states are suffering from very large trade deficits and when the international economic climate is not favourable.

Within the Community there are still differences as to where the emphasis on economic policy should lie and externally there is a need for the major developed countries such as the US and Japan to maintain demand and stimulate the world economy. This last point was emphasised by President Giscard d'Estaing of France when he met President Ford in Martinique last December. In addition, the Minister for Foreign Affairs when he visited the US in January informed the US Secretary of State and US Secretary of the Treasury of the general expansionary thrust of the Community's economic policy and stressed the importance of the US modifying its policies in the direction of increasing the level of demand. There have been encouraging signs in recent weeks that the US has began to re-orientate its policies in this way.

The Community has also taken an active part in international discussions on re-cycling the surplus funds of the raw materials producers, in particular the oil producers. The recycling of these funds is essential if the industrialised world is to maintain its level of demand and avoid a serious recession. The problem has been tackled imaginatively in international institutions such as the IMF and OECD and, as I mentioned earlier, the Community has agreed on its own loan scheme to help member states in balance of payments difficulties because of the oil crisis.

The Paris meeting also called on the member states to work out and implement a common energy policy in the shortest possible time. Over the past few months the Community has taken the first significant steps towards getting a Community energy policy going. At its meeting on 17th December, 1974, the Council adopted a resolution establishing energy objectives to be attained by 1975. The resolution sets specific targets to reduce Community dependence on imported energy, to reduce the Community growth rate in energy consumption and to maintain and increase the Community's indigenous supplies over all energy sectors. The Council at its meeting on 13th February adopted a further resolution which went on to define Community guidelines on the means to attain the objectives established by the resolution of 17th December, 1974, so as to develop dependable energy resources as quickly as possible under satisfactory economic conditions.

Further work is continuing within the Community and within the International Energy Agency to reach decisions on medium-term and long-term energy policies especially in the fields of energy conservation and the accelerated development of alternative energy resources. An important aspect of developing alternative energy supplies is the need to protect costly investments in new energy resources with long delays before supplies come on stream.

The US Secretary of State, Dr. Henry Kissinger, in a speech on 3rd February, 1975, proposed a floor price for oil imports which would be higher than historical prices but lower than the current price of oil so that imported oil would not be sold at prices which would make new energy sources non-competitive. This complex question of the best means to promote the development of alternative energy supplies on an equitable basis is at present under close study within the Community and the International Energy Agency in preparation for the dialogue between the oil producers, the industrialised oil-consuming countries and the developing oil-consuming countries proposed by the French President in October of last year.

As regards the role of the Community within the International Energy Agency, the Council has agreed that Community member states would seek a common position on the important problems under discussion within the agency, and especially in preparation for the proposed dialogue between oil producers and consumers. In accordance with a timetable agreed in Martinique between the Presidents of the United States and France and endorsed by the member countries of the International Energy Agency, it is envisaged that a preparatory meeting for the main conference between oil producers and consumers should be held towards the latter part of the month of March. The Community will be represented at the March preparatory meeting by a delegation consisting of representatives of the member states and of the Commission with Ireland, as current President-in-office of the Council, speaking on behalf of the Community.

I should now like to say a few words about the position of the United Kingdom. As I indicated in my opening remarks, the continued uncertainty about the position of the UK has been a factor in hindering the development of the Community and the formulation of policies designed to tackle the grave problems with which we are confronted. Important matters have had to be held in abeyance while the so-called "renegotiation" is brought to a conclusion. However, there has been progress in the past few months on most of the areas which form the UK "renegotiation" package, in particular on the question of the Community budget. In December the heads of Government took a significant initiative in inviting the institutions of the Community to set up a correcting mechanism of general application to prevent the possible development of situations unacceptable for a member state and incompatible with the smooth working of the Community. In response to this request, the Commission submitted in January its proposals which attempt to establish the criteria for deciding that a member state's economy is in an unacceptable situation and to determine the action which should be taken by the Community in the event of an unacceptable situation arising. These proposals are currently under examination within the Council, and it is hoped that the Council can take decisions on them at its meeting on 3rd and 4th March.

Naturally the Government hope, and are working towards ensuring, that the UK does remain in the Community. As indicated in the fourth report, we are studying the options open to Ireland in the event of a British withdrawal; it does not appear, however, that Ireland's economic or political interest would be best served by following suit. I hope that the issues raised by the UK will be resolved quickly to the satisfaction of all and that the British people will have taken a favourable decision on continued membership of the Community by the end of the Irish presidency.

In the field of its external trade relation the Community has been particularly active over the last few months. At its meeting on 10th and 11th February, the Council approved the directives enabling the Commission to take an active part in the GATT multilateral trade negotiations which began in Geneva on 11th February. This is a decision of great importance for the Community. It confirms the importance which the Community attaches to the multilateral negotiations and it has shown the effectiveness of the Community institutions in translating an important item on the programme of the heads of Government into concrete decisions within the time laid down; this is all the more important as the subject is a complex one involving very considerable and sometimes diverging interests of the member states. In adopting the directives the Community recognised that the aims of further trade liberalisations and the expansion of world trade will be more easily attained if the tariff negotiations are placed in a global context of international measures seeking to overcome the current world crisis.

Another major development in the trade area was the agreement with the African, Caribbean and Pacific countries which will be signed tomorrow in Lome. Comprehensive arrangements covering trade, the stabilisation of export earning, industrial co-operation and financial aid, which are, I think, unprecedented in the history of relations between industrialised and developing countries, have been established between the Community and the 46 countries covering most of Africa and part of the Caribbean and Pacific islands. The negotiations on the agreement were difficult and complex both politically and economically and posed enormous strains on the Irish presidency in its first month. The fact that a successful conclusion was reached is a testimony to the political determination of the Community and the African, Caribbean and Pacific States and augurs well for the remainder of our presidency.

The negotiations on agricultural prices for 1975-76 were similarly complex and difficult. I believe that the compromise package worked out at the Council meeting on 10th to 13th February is a good one. The average 10 per cent increase in the prices of agricultural products taken together with the 5 per cent devaluation of the green pound will contribute substantially to increases in farm incomes during the coming year.

I should now like to turn to some of the institutional changes which were agreed at the Paris meeting in December and to deal with the main developments in this area since then. In order to ensure the development and overall cohesion of the activities of the Communities and the work on political co-operation the heads of Government decided to meet, accompanied by their Foreign Ministers, at least three times a year as the Council of the European Communities and in the framework of political co-operation. The general intention is that one meeting will take place in each of the two countries holding the Presidency during the year; the third meeting will be held at the normal seat of the Council, that is, either Brussels or Luxembourg. The Community has been considering the arrangements necessary for these meetings and agreement has been reached on a number of matters for the Dublin meeting in March. Briefly, these are

—that the President of the Commission will attend,

—that Commissioners will attend when Community matters for which they are responsible are under discussion,

—that when formal decisions within the Community framework are required such decisions will be made on the basis of Commission proposals,

—that the Secretary General of the Council and a representative of the Presidency will be available to provide the necessary secretarial arrangements, and

—that a communique will not normally be issued but a declaration of a general nature may be made on certain points.

As the agenda has not yet been fixed it would be inappropriate at this stage to comment on what matters are likely to be discussed at the meeting. I will mention, however, that Ireland is particularly happy to host the first of these meetings and, as the country holding the presidency of the Community, will endeavour to ensure that it is a success both at the organisational level and on matters of substance. A second institutional matter dealt with at the Paris meeting in December was the question of the voting procedures within the Council. In paragraph 6 of the communique the heads of Government considered that in order to improve the functioning of the Council the practice of making agreement on all questions conditional on the unanimous consent of the member states should be dropped. We welcome this initiative as a step towards reducing the abuse of the veto on minor matters whilst, of course, seeing the necessity, at this stage in the development of the Community, of retaining the practice of seeking consensus where the vital interests of a member state are concerned.

Since the beginning of this year the Minister for Foreign Affairs, in his capacity as President of the Council, has initiated certain procedural changes in the preliminary sessions which are held before the Council meetings proper in order to identify those items on the agenda, susceptible to majority vote, which are not of such importance to individual member states that these member states cannot agree that paragraph 6 of the communique should apply. Majority or qualified majority voting can then be applied in the Council as appropriate.

On the question of direct elections to the European Parliament the heads of Government noted that the objectives laid down by the treaty should be achieved as soon as possible. They wished the Council to act on the Parliaments proposals by 1976 so that the first elections could take place starting in 1978. I am glad to note that the Parliament on 14th January adopted a resolution presented by Mr. Patijn on a draft convention providing for elections by direct universal suffrage. The way is now open for the Council to take the necessary action once the political reservations expressed by the UK and Danish delegations at the Paris meeting are lifted. I should say, however, that though the Government has indicated its desire for early direct elections, indeed pushed for them at the Paris meeting, and though we have welcomed the Patijn proposals as a further step in the right direction we will be concerned to see that there is an adequate distribution of seats in a directly elected Parliament to the smaller countries such as Ireland. The question of direct elections is a complex one and we will be giving the Parliament's proposals close examination when they come up for discussion in the Council.

In the field of political co-operation between the Nine, a number of meetings have already taken place, under our presidency, in Dublin. These have included a meeting of the Foreign Ministers of the Nine on 13th February, a meeting of the political committee, composed of senior officials, in late January, and meetings of some eight different groups of experts on particular subjects.

At their meeting on 13th February the main subjects considered by the Ministers were the situation in Cyprus, the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe, the Euro-Arab dialogue, the situation in the UN, Portugal, and the agreement on a procedure for replying to the questions of the European Parliament on political co-operation activities. With regard to Cyprus, the Ministers stated "that they continue to consider it highly desirable to seek a fair and lasting solution negotiated through consultation between the two Cypriot communities", and "that, in order to help achieve this objective, the Nine are prepared to conduct talks with the representatives of all the parties concerned". On the Euro-Arab dialogue, the Ministers considered the concrete preparations that have now been put in hand and expressed their desire that these continue to make progress. The Minister for Foreign Affairs had the opportunity on 19th February last in Strasbourg of informing the political affairs committee of the European Parliament of the results of the Ministers' meeting on 13th February.

The developments I have just outlined represent some of the more important activities undertaken by the Community over the past year or so. This has been an immensely difficult period during which the Community, and, indeed, the world as a whole, has been threatened with a grave economic crisis. It is, therefore, a mark of the Community's achievement that not only has it withstood the disintegrating effects of that crisis but that it has also in large measure striven successfully to cement further the bonds which tie the member states together in their joint endeavour of creating a new Europe. The member states' rejection of any recourse to protectionist measures provides an excellent illustration of this point but, perhaps, even more encouraging is the fact that at this time of grave difficulty the Community has given every indication of its commitment to helping economically weaker states, whether internally, through the establishment of the regional fund, or externally, through the recent and successfully concluded negotiations with the ACP countries.

It is well to record, however, that the member states' understandable concern with the economic well-being of the Community and associate countries, has not blinded them to the important and politically desirable task of increasing and extending the democratic nature of the Community's institutions. Thus the established aim of holding direct elections to the European Parliament in 1978 and of extending the competence of the Parliament, in particular by granting it certain powers in the Communities' legislative process, represent important steps towards achieving greater democratic control over the Community's activities. It is premature to make predictions but presumably this aspect of the Community will be a major concern of the report on European union which the heads of Government have asked Mr. Leo Tindemans, Prime Minister of Belgium, to prepare.

Looking back, therefore, I think that the last six months have been a period of steady progress in which the foundations for an integrated Europe have been solidly and methodically laid. It is on these foundations that Ireland started its period in the presidency on 1st January last and on which we have already begun to make our contribution towards the future evolution of a Community that will be socially just, economically well-balanced and democratically controlled.

I want to make a few preliminary comments at the outset. Just as the Parliamentary Secretary was finishing his speech I received a copy of the supplementary report to the fourth report to which he referred. The Parliamentary Secretary will acknowledge that, with all the documentation coming from Europe and the need to give these documents very full study, it is very difficult for any one spokesman who does not have the benefit of an extensive civil service to support him in his researches to cope.

I am sorry Deputy O'Kennedy had this difficulty. The supplementary report reached me at home this morning. I had very little post yesterday in my home or office but had an enormous amount this morning. I suspect the problem arises of the backlog in the Dublin sorting office.

I am not making a personal issue of this. The Parliamentary Secretary and the House will acknowledge that the whole range of European involvement is so broad and covers so many areas and Departments that it is vitally important, that if the House and the spokesman for the Opposition are to consider it seriously, we should not be presented with something of this nature——

The supplementary report will fall into a fifth report. We are discussing the third and fourth at the moment. This supplementary report is a gratuitous help to Deputies.

The Parliamentary Secretary referred to it in his speech. Therefore if it is relevant to this debate we should have received it yesterday. I welcome the Parliamentary Secretary today in his first major responsibility in his new assignment. Nevertheless, I must ask why the Minister for Foreign Affairs is not introducing this major report. I recognise that the Minister for Foreign Affairs, particularly under our presidency of the Council, has very heavy commitments. Nonetheless, it must be stated this report and debate have been hanging fire for a considerable time. There was no urgency to have it debated until the Minister for Foreign Affairs could present it to the House.

This is the only opportunity we have to assess our involvement and the development of the European Community. We are not getting our priorities right when the Minister is not here to present this report to the House, in view of the fact that under the rotation system he is now President of the Council of Ministers. We would have been quite agreeable to postponing the debate until he was available. It must be noted that the Minister has been available over the last week or two to make statements on matters such as education policies which are not related to his primary responsibility. I would be the last to criticise his energy or interest in the European situation but, as I already said, he should have been here to take this debate. I do not want anyone to think that I am saying that the Parliamentary Secretary has not the knowledge or capacity to deal with this. I am merely saying that as this is our major European debate, our European representative, the Minister for Foreign Affairs does not seem to think it is important enough to be here.

Before Christmas we had a debate on European integration. I asked why that debate which lasted a few hours should be taken at that stage. It was simply a debate on the principles of European integration and European union and was held at the request of the Council for the European Movement. I am not aware if any other parliament of the nine debated that motion. The Minister was here to discuss that although he is not here today.

On that occasion I asked that the Minister for Industry and Commerce —a Minister who is notoriously reticent on what one might call sensitive matters—might give his views in this House. We were told we would hear from him on the budget debate, but we did not. He has been known to be critical of our involvement in the EEC. I asked at the last debate that he make a statement as spokesman on European affairs for the Labour Party. Will a Labour Party speaker make a statement here today?

I can promise the Deputy that at least one Labour speaker will make a statement here today.

I am not concerned with just one Labour Party speaker. I am concerned with a particular man from the Labour Party.

The Deputy has not the right to demand a particular Deputy to speak.

I know Deputy B. Desmond's view. I want an idea of the co-ordinated Government view in this area. Deputy Desmond has been a member of the Council of the European Movement for some time. I know his views prior to our entry to the Community. Equally I know the views of the Minister for Industry and Commerce at that time. I asked then and I ask now that that Minister come here as a member of the Government and give his views on the benefits which have come to this country as a result of our membership of the EEC. He should also state his commitment and that of the Labour Party to our continued association in the Community. We must recognise that while there will be differences of view in any party of Government, it is about time in the interest of the Community and, in the long run our interest, that each nation clearly determines where it stands in this area.

We have examples of how the Community was weakened by the contradictory stand taken by certain Governments notably the French and British Governments. Within the British Government at the moment there are various councils on Britain's benefits from the Community, and the role of the Community. While these various groups are deciding what they should do, the rest of us are being influenced, or even compromised, by this lack of co-ordination.

We should set the record straight. If we are going to ask this from other countries, let us have it from our own Government first. As I mentioned the last day, I have heard too many Labour Party statements. It is not enough to hear from Deputy B. Desmond whose commitment to Europe is well known. I want to hear from a spokesman of the party who opposed our entry. This will then put an end to this two-faced approach. Some of the Labour Party speakers even now at the by-election campaigns in Galway are continuing to make these statements. Either the Government composed of these two elements are in favour of working to maximise our benefits from the Community or they are not.

The Labour Party have repeatedly said that.

The Parliamentary Secretary is naive if he does not recognise that there are Labour men who say regularly they always maintained that entry to Europe would be a fiasco for us, and that that is being proved every day. I want to hear from a responsible Minister——

They all recognise the people made a decision and they accept it.

They accept a decision has been made but they continue to weaken the resolve of the people to remain full, influential and effective members of the Community. There is only one way to cope with this and the Parliamentary Secretary, or even the Minister for Foreign Affairs, is not the person to do it. Let the Minister for Industry and Commerce tell this House where he stands, not Deputy B. Desmond.

I am not in a position to bring in individual speakers.

The Parliamentary Secretary is not. I am not speaking of him in his capacity——

I would have produced the Minister for Industry and Commerce and got him to speak——

I am not speaking of the Parliamentary Secretary in his former capacity as Government Whip and the obligations he might have had to arrange the order of speakers. I am speaking of him as Parliamentary Secretary in a Government which contains at least one member who has openly expressed his position as being opposed to the Community. This is a line which has been followed by certain members of his party consistently, even this very day. That is what I want to see cleared up. It is not a responsibility for the Parliamentary Secretary. It is a responsibility for the Government. Let us then have an end of it. Let us not always be saying "We told you so," about every problem that arises, whether it is the small farmer's problem, creeping prices or anything else. Let us have an end of that now.

Which Labour members of the Government have been saying this?

I will give the names to the Parliamentary Secretary privately. I do not want to name them out here.

Tell the House openly who has been saying "We told you so".

I am not concerned about naming names but I will do it.

Do it now.

Deputy John Ryan.

Which Labour member of the Government——

I have just told the Parliamentary Secretary.

Deputy Ryan is a representative of Deputy O'Kennedy's constituency but he is not a member of the Government.

I did not say he is a member of the Government. I said Members on those benches are following the line which the Minister for Industry and Commerce is taking. I want him to ensure that this will end so that the members of the Labour Party will stop this nonsense once and for all.

Which point is the Deputy trying to make?

I should like us to have a consistent and clear view of this. I want to get the Minister for Industry and Commerce in here to clear the air. I want to come on to the broader issues involved because if we are to debate what the functions and the development of Europe will be it is well that we would be clear in our own minds where we stand.

This morning the Parliamentary Secretary uttered some rather highprincipled and high-sounding commitments to Europe. He has expressed a euphoria in relation to the development of Europe, particularly the events following the recent summit. In his opening words he praised the summit as being almost a major achievement, a commitment again to the principles which originally activated the European Community. We are asked to accept, for instance, that the agreement to establish a regional fund is a political resolve of the EEC Council of Ministers and the heads of Government. He has asked us to accept that there is a resolve to work towards an economic and monetary union and thereby towards political integration.

The Parliamentary Secretary, or whoever was responsible for drafting his speech, must have forgotten that in this House the Minister for Foreign Affairs acknowledged to me many times that economic and monetary union has been put right back in the list of priorities. However, it is fair to say that at the Paris Summit a reference was made to this as being a continuing commitment of the EEC. Commitment is one thing but actions towards achieving that are a very different matter. It is vitally important that we should not allow ourselves to go along with this mass of verbiage that comes out of these summits. Paragraph 14 of the summit communiqué states:

The heads of Government having noted that internal and international difficulties did not permit as much progress as had been expected towards economic and monetary union, affirmed that in regard to this their will has not weakened and their objective remains that which they set themselves on the occasion of the Paris conference.

The Minister for Foreign Affairs in this House acknowledged to me that the will has, indeed, weakened, if it exists at all at this stage. Yet, today we had the Parliamentary Secretary telling us that the establishment of a regional fund shows an awareness in the member states, particularly the major powers, of the need to re-establish their resolve towards the fundamental aims of the Community, notably economic and monetary union.

All I am asking for is consistency and, in our own interests, honesty. It is difficult to accept that this House should be asked to acknowledge that major progress has been made in the last few months towards realising the fundamental aims of the Community. I do not want to start picking holes in what the Parliamentary Secretary has said but I suggest that the reality is very obviously the other way and people know this. In the course of a debate on European integration last December, at column 776 of the Dáil Official Report, the Minister for Foreign Affairs said:

The obstacle has been that countries and regions not in the greatest need, such as the region of Northern Italy, have for reasons of their own, which one can understand because politics play their part in all these matters, sought also to benefit from the fund. It is this that has created the conflict.

Please listen carefully to the following:

The British Government have felt it necessary to say that they should benefit substantially from this fund. The French Government have felt that, if Britain were to benefit, then so should France. It is not seen that there is such a clearly distinct difference between Britain and France in this matter. The German Government have had some qualms about transferring funds to their two leading competitors, France and Britain.

That was just in advance of the summit, and the Minister went on to talk of the triangular interplay between the major powers of Europe, clearly indicating in connection with the regional fund that there are countries who are seeking benefits from the fund in a way not consistent with the principles on which the fund was established.

The Parliamentary Secretary comes here this morning and states that the fact the fund was established was a major breakthrough which showed political commitment and a new awakening of understanding between the member states, particularly the major powers, on how the evolution of Europe should come. Where does the reality lie? If the reality is, first, that the fund has been delayed because of jockeying between the major powers, or two, that the fund has been diminished because of such jockeying, are we here expected to support that there is great new awareness on the part of the major powers? We would be doing less than justice to ourselves and the Community if we adopted that attitude.

I do not want to dwell on the question of the regional fund itself. I would just say—and the Parliamentary Secretary will be aware of this— that there is real concern at home as to how this fund will be applied and particularly whether or not it will be clearly identifiable as a fund from the European Community directed towards certain areas of this country.

That is really jockeying.

I am simply saying this to the Parliamentary Secretary but I am sure he is aware of this without my having to mention it. We have not any indication of this at present. I shall wait until we have such indication but it seems to me to be entirely essential if we want, first of all, to prove to our people that Europe has a real presence here, that we will be able to point to that presence, not that it should be lost in what I gather are the diminishing coffers of the Government. If it is merely going to be a supplement to this ever-diminishing till of the Government then I am afraid it will be like some other things done in this House, such as the increase in the price of petrol—it will be lost simply for the sake of replenishing the diminishing stock of Government funds. It is vitally important that this fund be clearly identifiable in its own right and that the projects to which it should apply be equally identifiable. Though it is not my responsibility, let me say from this side of the House it has always been our essential programme that, in so far as national development is concerned, obviously the west must be the area which benefits almost exclusively from this very diminished fund. There may be other pockets around the country and I happen to represent a constituency which has such pockets.

I believe the Deputy.

If the Parliamentary Secretary knows the geography of Ireland, he will be aware of this. I am saying it is vitally important that the west should, if the fund is so diminished—and, of course, Deputy Staunton will agree with this anyway——

Do Longford, Cavan and Monaghan belong to the west?

I mean areas that have been classified generally as undeveloped regions. There are portions of Longford, Cavan and Monaghan, of course, that qualify but, as I said to the Parliamentary Secretary, I am not saying here, nor is it my purpose nor within my capacity to delineate these regions——

Or west Wicklow?

Or west Wicklow, or North Tipperary, or some portions of it.

What the Deputy really means is Galway.

The Parliamentary Secretary is being frivolous. Let me say, whether or not the Parliamentary Secretary accepts it, I had not Galway nor current events there in mind when I said that. It may seem a little strange that I would have to say so but it is a fact. I was thinking as much of Mayo and Leitrim and I am now thinking as much of Mayo and Leitrim than of Galway. I was glad to note that parts of the constituency of east Galway, particularly, are, in my view, as fertile as many parts of Munster. If that satisfies the Parliamentary Secretary, I am not putting in a by-election plug. I hope my point will be taken for what it was intended to be.

Anyway we shall have to await the outcome of the Government's deliberation in this matter over the next few months. We still await with bathed breath the actual launching of the fund. There are problems. We are told that the Council of Ministers meeting in March will probably decide this finally. I hope it does because we have been waiting so long for what has turned out to be so little that any further delay would carry the danger of dissolving whatever benefit there may be in this fund. If it continues for another few months, with the rate of inflation and the degree of need such as obtain at present, I am afraid it will be of even less value than it would have been a few months ago. All of that is said acknowledging the fact that the fund is utterly inadequate. It does not represent, as the Parliamentary Secretary has said and the Minister has endeavoured to say subsequently, anything like a meaningful regional fund in accordance with the principles of the Community. If we pretend that it does we are merely doing ourselves and the community a disservice. The Minister, judging by his own statements, standards and demands, must acknowledge that it is not any of the things any of us wished it to be and let us be honest enough to say so.

I pass from that to another area in some little way associated with it. That is the whole question of cross Border projects within this country, particularly assistance for those projects out of funds of the Community: This matter has been raised, I would say, eight times in the House during the past year. The only reason I mention it now is that the Minister finally answered me on the basis that I should ask questions in the House of Commons to find out why it was the British Government would not co-operate with our Government in joint applications to the European Community for funds to undertake surveys, studies and the launching of cross Border projects. We gather that very late in the day the question was discussed on the recent visit of Stanley Orme to Dublin.

I have said consistently that if the British stance is what the Minister has said—in other words, that they will not join us in an application to the European Community—let us say it aloud. Let us ask for their explanation in public as often as may be required. Let us prove how indefensible is their position, because I gather the Minister seems to think it is. Let us continue to say it. But do we see any reference to that fact in this fourth report of our progress in the European Community? There is no reference whatsoever on an issue that concerns our people with regard to the funds of the Community and the benefits we can reap from the Community. That is a major issue and this Report makes no reference to it whatsoever. It has been a constant source of discussion in this House but the Parliamentary Secretary made no reference to it this morning. Are we happy? Are we afraid, to quote; that we might exacerbate relations with the British Government, which seems almost to be the key principle of our diplomatic relations in many areas, since the Government came into office?

Were not the Conservative Government in favour of cooperating on this? Has not there been a change with the Labour Government?

This may have been, but the Labour Government have been in office for some time now. I am simply saying that this has been going on for a considerable length of time. The Labour Government for no reasons known to me—and I do not know what excuse has been given to the Minister for Foreign Affairs—have taken no defensible position; they will not even co-operate in a joint application for funds that are available. Mind you, these funds are available. Commissioner Thompson has indicated to me, and I am sure also to the Minister and publicly as well that these funds are available. And we have no criticism to offer on that fact in this report.

The Deputy will acknowledge that there are very special circumstances attaching to the cross-border area which do not exist, for example, in the border area, between Belgium and Holland.

Of course, there are very special circumstances. But before one can begin to tackle those very special circumstances, one has to study just how complex and serious they are and draw up surveys for their assistance. The position is that the British Government will not join us in an application to do that preliminary work.

That is the more recent attitude of the British Government.

That has been the attitude of the British Government for the past 12 months and the record of the House here will prove it. I have raised this matter on numerous occasions. Our Government for some reason unknown to me are reluctant to bring this out into the open. I want to bring it out into the open and have tried to do so again and again. I am surprised at the number of times people question me as to why I have not mentioned it when I have repeated it so often in this House. It was I who raised it in the first instance. Why is it not referred to in this report? Are we simply looking for all of the things that one can glibly commend as being a statement of new commitment to the new dynamism of Europe or are we afraid in honesty to point to the problem?

I will point to some of the encouraging things too, I hope. In this area, another aspect of confusion on the European scene has been the recent visit of the British Prime Minister to the Soviet Union. Reports state that bilateral trade agreements were signed on the occasion of this visit. The bilateral trade agreements with the State trading countries have ceased since 1973 and as a result we have had to terminate our agreements with, amongst others, the Soviet Union. That seems to be a proper and common stance because if a community cannot organise agreements together then they are not even beginning to be a community. However, the British Prime Minister, Mr. Wilson, reached an agreement with the Soviet Union on what has been called economic, scientific and technological areas. I am all for understanding between the Soviet Union and the United Kingdom, the Soviet Union and our country, and the Soviet Union and other members of the Community, but how does this square up with the commitment of the Community to ensure that there will be no more bilateral agreements between member states in relation to trade with the State economies of eastern Europe?

Was it a firm agreement or merely a statement of intent?

This is the grey area and sometimes grey areas can be more significant signs than the very clear and precise areas. If the Deputy reads any of the reports contained in the various British newsapers he will see that they talk of it in terms of economic, scientific and technological agreements.

It may be political propaganda.

It may be but it is of vital importance because we can now expect within the next month that the French President will be going to Moscow to effect a similar type of agreement. If it is not a political agreement which I gather it cannot be, then it must be an agreement relating to economic aspects and scientific co-operation. There is a section in this report acknowledging, to the effect, that because of the Council's decision in 1973 our trade agreement with the USSR will terminate. Allowing for that are we seeing the position where the major powers in Europe, Britain, France and Germany can compromise the whole programme?

As far as the Soviet Union are concerned I say more power to them if they can achieve for their own interests bilateral agreements, economic, technological or scientific, with members of the EEC. It suits them if they can have bilateral agreements on these without having to negotiate with the European Community on a multilateral basis which is the strength of any community. We have seen too much within the Community of each nation following its own immediate needs. We saw it particularly during the time of the energy crisis but there is no reference in the report before the House to this.

I find the report and the Parliamentary Secretary's statement in introducing it, almost euphoric, unreal in its general tone. Ireland, the nations of Europe and the nations of the world are aware that Europe is in some trouble and we are not going to solve our difficulties by saying that the last Paris summit was a great new world. What was President Ortoli talking about recently when he mentioned that Europe will have to decide as a matter of great urgency whether or not it intends to implement its own fundamental aims? Our own Minister is presenting this to us as a position that we should be satisfied with. He is telling us that great things have been happening in the last few months. Does this arise from the fact that our Minister for Foreign Affairs, by rota, is President of the Council of Ministers? I recognise our Minister's capacity and qualifications for the job and the impact he has created at home and abroad in this area but is he trying to create the impression that during his presidency everything has been going swimmingly for Europe? Is he trying to create the impression that during his term a new dynamism has been discovered? In my view there is an element of the latter in this report.

I do not think it is in our interest that that should be so. On many occasions I have said that our strength in international associations has been our goodwill. It has not been our muscle power, our political influence or our political dominance in European affairs; it has simply been our goodwill. I have the impression that the Minister for Foreign Affairs is anxious to establish Ireland's position, particularly during his term as President of the Council of Ministers, as a major influence in Europe. How often has the Minister for Foreign Affairs in this House, and in public statements, referred to the French position, the German position and the British position and the way the French, Germans and British have come around to his view? Have we heard our Minister talking of the Belgian, Luxembourg or Dutch position? Are they too unimportant to warrant the attention of our Minister for Foreign Affairs? He seems to be rather concerned with placing us, and maybe himself, on a par with the Germans, the French and the British, to which position we do not belong.

Is this the explanation for the dispute that never happened between President Giscard d'Estaing and our Minister with regard to the agenda and conduct of the forthcoming meeting of heads of State in Dublin? The French President after the Paris summit said that it was the last summit and that henceforth the heads of state would meet three times a year in council to discuss these matters and review the progress made. Somewhere along the line a dispute has occurred. Our Minister for Foreign Affairs, and his French counterpart, recently acknowledged that this was a misunderstanding. Our Minister used a phrase we have heard so often from him: "There seems to be some confusion here", when he was questioned in relation to this position. Indeed, there seems to be some confusion. The French newspapers were either dreaming that there was a major difference between our Minister for Foreign Affairs in his capacity as President of the Council of Ministers and the French Government or it was a fact. If it was a fact I do not think the Minister for Foreign Affairs, after the recent meeting in Dublin, should have conveyed the impression that it never happened. This did occur and our Minister should have a little honesty so that we can understand the true position.

In my view in our strategy of our foreign policy, in the European Community and elsewhere, we would be well to recognise that we are not a major power, that we do not seek major influence. It would be well to recognise that Europe and European diplomacy is, and was for a considerable time before we emerged on the scene, sophisticated, informed and very well based in the whole historic tradition of diplomacy and national and international interests.

I think if the Minister refuses to be a "little Irelander" that is much to his credit.

I do not wish to see the Minister a little Irelander. The Parliamentary Secretary may recognise a reasonably consistent theme in what I have been saying so far in talking about reality and honesty. I am not accusing the Minister of dishonesty—I could not and would not—but what I am saying is that we have heard it so often here in the House and it has been said after so many Council of Ministers meetings that the French are coming round to the Irish position. They came around so often on the regional fund that we wondered what happened afterwards. Who came around to whose position in the heel of the hunt? The Germans were coming around to our position. The Italians were coming around to our position. If one were to ask now what effectively has happened to establish Ireland's interest, the Irish position in any of these areas of negotiations, the balance sheet would be very thin indeed.

I do acknowledge that the Minister particularly has aroused a keen interest in foreign affairs here and has made a great contribution in that connection, but what I am saying is that while it may be fine to satisfy our own attitude we should consider what effect it is having on the benefits we can get. What has happened about the regional fund is no great reflection of the effectiveness of the tactics that have been adopted over the last few years. However I should like to make it clear that the Minister will have, as he has had, my support and that of my party in relation to what he is doing in his role at present and as our representative on the Council of Ministers. Nevertheless I would be doing our party and the people we represent less than justice if I did not say we have reservations. I envy the Minister his capacity, his energy, his ability. Might I say I also envy him his Press relations, but Press relations at home may not be sufficient to serve our interests abroad. I shall leave it at that.

I want to refer briefly to an aspect that arose on the motion on European integration. I said at that time, and the Minister accepted it—and I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will be able to have discussions with him with a view to getting something under way—that the question of our representation in the European Parliament and the servicing of the dual mandate that so many of our Members have is a matter of vital importance. We recognise the importance of the European Parliament and the fact that its powers will have to be increased, and I am glad to acknowledge here the increasing powers the Parliament has been given in the general area of the Community budget.

I suggested then that a Committee of this House should be established. I know we have many committees, but this is one that could include the Members of all parties who serve in the European Parliament and that would draw up proposals for us in the House on which I know we can agree in regard to this dual mandate. The Minister at that stage thought it was a good idea. Although it has been as much my fault as the Minister's that we have not been in contact about this in the meantime, I expected we might have had some proposals. However could I now repeat to the Parliamentary Secretary the suggestion that the Members of the European Parliament who are in this House and some other selected Members would meet together in committee to make proposals to us as to how best a dual mandate can be served?

Could we get it clear whether the Deputy himself is in favour of the dual mandate?

I do not mind putting my own view on the record, but I would like to hear from those involved. I think it is important that people should have the ear of the national Parliament in presenting their views to the European Parliament. That is the main reason why I have given my own view. Nonetheless we should hear from the men who have had the problem. The Parliamentary Secretary will note they are not here today to consider a motion which more directly affects them, at least from the point of view of their responsibilities.

Would the Deputy not agree that the Joint Committee of both Houses should have a look at it first?

The Joint Committee has been formed for a different purpose, but nevertheless——

It has to advise this House.

I agree, on questions of secondary legislation but——

And draft proposals.

Yes, but it is the Government that must present our view on the European Parliament in the heel of the hunt. The Government must take some initiative here, but maybe what the Deputy suggests would be a very suitable way of doing it. The only comment I have to make on that is that the Joint Committee —as the Deputy is aware, being a more diligent Member of the Committee than I have been able to be— is already overburdened in facing the work it has to do at the moment.

It is one of the matters it intends to look at.

I am glad to hear that. Then at least we can expect some progress there. I want to turn to another area which is not related to anything I have been discussing, but I certainly hope it cannot and will not be a political issue between the parties of the House. It is the whole area of development aid and the programme of the European Community towards at least maintaining and developing an effective and consistent aid programme for the Third World. Might I preface this by saying I acknowledge that the Minister and the Government have, from the date they came into office, shown a welcome awareness of our obligations in this area. As I said at the start, we should support the Minister both in regard to the increase which he announced in the first budget of the Government and also in the establishment of the special agency for developing countries.

Having said that, I do not think what we have done and what we propose to do this year is anything like adequate having regard, first of all, to our responsibilities as members of the EEC and, secondly, having regard to our responsibilities as members of the international community. I want to quote something which is not referred to in the report, as I think it should have been but which is quoted in the Bulletin of the European Communities which relates to Co-operation and Development towards a Community Policy on a World Scale, No. 78 of 1974. It says:

The Council at its meeting in July, 1974 passed a resolution to the effect that the Member States will set themselves the joint objective of an actual increase in public aid for development and will undertake as far as they can——

and this is what I want to put on the record

——to keep their aid flow completely detached from any budget problems or difficulties with their balance of payments.

That was a resolution of the Council of Ministers in July last. It goes on to say that eight member states have either reaffirmed or expressed for the first time their resolve to attain as swiftly as possible the goal of an annual flow of public development aid equivalent to 0.7 per cent of their GNP, an objective which the UN set in 1970 for the second development decade. I expect that the ninth member state was ours because our intention is to reach 0.35 per cent of our GNP by 1975 as distinct from the UN target. The bulletin goes on to say that these member states have agreed to move towards this objective at a pace in direct proportion to their distance from it with an exception to this general order existing for certain countries in particular circumstances. That means clearly that the further a country is from the proportion of the target, the faster it attempts to move towards it because there is more leeway to be made up.

The Minister for Foreign Affairs said it was our intention over a five year period, taking one year with another, to reach a target of 0.35 per cent. Without being critical may I point out that starvation does not take one year with another? Death in countries where starvation is rife is an immediate problem. Unfortunately we seem to be relying now on the saving clause because the amount of development aid provided by the Government in the Estimates for this year reflect a percentage cutback of our GNP compared with the amount provided last year and that was away below, at approximately 0.1 per cent.

In this regard the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, answering for the Minister for Foreign Affairs, told me at a time when I was not aware of the wording of this resolution, that the Estimate, regrettably was lower than we would wish it to be and acknowledged that support from us was helpful in this area. He said that the reason it was lower was obvious to all sides of the House in the light of the present economic climate.

In effect we turned our backs on the Council of Ministers' resolution and we cut back on the percentage of our GNP that we are making available to the starving and dying millions in what is known as the developing world. We are doing this because of our own budgetary and balance of payments problems. In other words we are flying in the face of the commitment of the Council of Ministers. This is not a matter of any political issue. So far as this side of the House is concerned we commit ourselves to ensuring that, irrespective of our budgetary or balance of payments problems, we shall set aside year after year the appropriate sum to ensure that we reach at least the target set by the Minister—0.35 per cent of our GNP within five years.

The Minister may be very concerned in this regard but that is not enough if for some reason the Minister for Finance decides that there are more pressing problems. In those circumstances the commitments of the Minister for Foreign Affairs are of little solace to those who are starving but the most important aspect of this is that as a small nation and one that wishes to generate activity in Europe, our most persuasive power lies in our actions. Think of what would be the effect of proving to our fellow member states, whose resources are much greater than ours, that we are prepared to hurt ourselves in order to reach our commitment.

We know that when we talk in terms of £3 million we are not going to solve the problems of the Third World but at least we can point out that, despite our economic problems, despite the well-known claims we are making in regard to the regional fund, despite the problems associated with the CAP, we are resolved firmly to achieving the target set to help those who are starving. Not only would this strengthen our voice in Europe but, more important, it would have a tremendous effect on the starving millions. Before mid-July this year it is estimated that 35 million will die of starvation and at all times it is a question barely of survival for 100,000 million people. As members of an international community and also as Christians we cannot afford any longer to ignore that awful reality and we must do everything possible to make the world take note of it. There is the question of watching for developments in other areas of the world. I wish to refer to a statement in the fourth report in relation to the European Communities' attitude towards the developing world. Paragraph 4.45 dealing with the United Nations emergency operation states:

At its meeting on 25 June, 1974, the Council approved the text of a letter to be sent by the President of the Council to the Secretary General of the United Nations reaffirming the Community's readiness to make a substantial contribution to the exceptional international action in favour of those developing countries hardest hit by the economic crisis. The letter indicated that, provided the other countries which had been approached contributed their share, the Community intended to contribute up to one-sixth but no more than $500 million of the total cost of the emergency operation. The Community's stated assumption was that the other industrialised countries would combine to provide two-sixths and the petroleum exporting countries the remaining half of the total.

I regard that as a sad reflection of the state of awareness within the Community of their obligations. Apparently this aid is provisional on other countries contributing their share. What will happen—and it has already happened —if the American Government, in the light of the economic conditions from which they are suffering, take the view that they will cut back on their level of development aid? According to this formula the EEC will cut back also. Is that recognising the enormity of the problem? If I spoke of nothing else in this House today I would be happy if I got across the notion that if Ireland in its own way resolves to meet its obligations—I know the Minister acknowledges them but we have not done anything about them in the budget this year—the effect of that action on Europe could be immense. The Ministers in our Government would be able to speak with real persuasion, they could move Europe to do something and Europe could move the world. If this happened the dying and the starving people could get some help.

This is a challenge for our country, particularly when we consider the responsibility we have at the moment. It is not a challenge that requires major influence or muscle power. We have an opportunity to take effective action and that is much more persuasive than high-sounding words. I hope both sides of the House will acknowledge that we must set aside this amount every year to meet that target. We are far behind at the moment but this is not the fault of the Government because our Government were in office for a considerable time. Even at this late stage I hope the Government will get themselves back into line so that we may meet the target. It is a matter of concern to the Irish people but it is a matter of life and death to the starving millions.

I do not think the Irish people will complain if they have to tighten their belts and hurt themselves a little in order to help others. Their record of contributions to the various voluntary organisations has been tremendous. Their contributions have increased enormously in the last few years even though our people have been suffering from rising prices and the other problems of the last 12 months. The Irish people's contributions have increased by more than £1 million and if they do this voluntarily I am quite sure they will back any party or Government who, in an official way, help the starving world.

Another aspect I should like to refer to is the question of maximising our benefits from the 14-point plan as members of the EEC. I think all of us are agreed on this and there is bipartisanship on both the last item and on this matter. Let us consider to what extent we have maximised our benefits from the funds of the European Coal and Steel Community and in this connection I refer to the Official Report dated 5th February, 1975. At column 1706 I asked the Minister the total loans granted to each member state of the European Community from the funds of the Coal and Steel Community. I would add I have been interested in this matter for a considerable time and I asked the same question last year. Last year Ireland received £208,335 by way of loan at 1 per cent from the European Coal and Steel Community. However, the loans extended in million units of account to other countries were as follows: Germany, £164.73; Belgium, £1.34; Denmark, £7.81; France, £106.78; Italy, £1.77 and The Netherlands, £3.98. It is fair to say that Ireland is not a major coal or steel producing country——

Is the Deputy talking about loans or grants?

I am referring to loans, although there is a grant element in it also.

The Irish statistics are for 1973.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

Before I was so rudely interrupted I was dealing with the European Coal and Steel Community.

Will the Deputy make it worth our while to be present now?

Deputy O'Kennedy was making a valuable contribution and we want the Members opposite to hear it.

I was quoting a document with which the Members opposite should be more familiar than I am. I refer to the famous 14-point plan. There was one little point in the 14 to the effect that the Government would maximise our benefits within the European Community. Where the Coal and Steel Community are concerned we have, I believe, minimised our benefits. I shall not repeat the figures giving the comparison between the loans made available to us and those made available to other member states.

Last year I asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs what applications we had submitted for loan assistance from the funds of the European Coal and Steel Community. By agreement with the Minister for Foreign Affairs, the matter was transferred to the Minister for Local Government and it transpired that we had submitted only one application, that of £208,335 in respect of local authority houses in, I think, Arigna.

Building new houses and modernising old houses for coal workers.

I mentioned at the time that there were many other areas which could benefit, many other areas which would qualify, areas of administration, and I quoted the Ballingarry mines in my own constituency. I said that surely the Government would submit an application in respect of Ballingarry because it obviously qualified as an area placed in a uniquely severe economically critical position because of the closing of the mines. What happened? I dealt at some length with Ballingarry though I also mentioned one or two other areas. That was 12 months ago; 12 months later I repeat the question and I find the Government have submitted one application. Would it surprise the House to learn it is an application on behalf of Ballingarry?

As I said, I mentioned other areas. I pointed out that there are things such as harbour development but I did not dwell on that. I mentioned Cobh, Foynes and some others. Many things are involved, such as the retraining of workers who will become redundant.

The criteria are not determined by national allocation; they are determined by the applications submitted. To say the least of it, I am gratified in one sense in that I may have been responsible for bringing Ballingarry to the attention of the Government and I am also gratified to know that an application has been submitted for Ballingarry. I am, however, less than satisfied in regard to many other areas, geographical and administrative, because they have not been considered. The Minister's response to me was that we are not, after all, a major coal or steel producing country. I did not suggest we were, but we had some association with the steel industry and we have areas in which workers need retraining. We need harbours. There are many areas that would qualify. Perhaps next year there will be some further development. Have the Government heard of Castlecomer? Deputy Esmonde has been down there in a professional capacity.

So have I.

Yes, indeed. Something may happen next year where Castlecomer is concerned. The mines there have been closed. In my uninformed way I believe Castlecomer would qualify for very substantial loan assistance from the European Coal and Steel Community. There is no evidence of any Government application in respect of that area. Neither is there any evidence of an application in respect of the development of Cobh Harbour; prima facie it would qualify for loan assistance because of the steel industry there. I am not sufficiently informed to enumerate all that would qualify.

I do not want to harp on a Government of all the talents since I do not wish to introduce any cynicism into the debate, but the greatest talent is not how one expresses oneself or projects oneself; it is what one does. Where doing is concerned in this particular area there is certainly significant cause for concern. This has to be repeated ad nauseam. I would hope to see a real awareness. It was evident from the most casual discussions I had in Brussels 18 months ago that this was a financial area available without reference to national allocations.

We were all unhappy with the outcome of the regional fund. In that area benefit is determined on national allocation and national interest. That is not the position where the steel and coal funds are concerned. As I pointed out before, the country that benefited most in the first year of our accession from the social programme retraining scheme was Germany, a country whose financial resources are on a par with the other member states of the Community. Why? Because Germany produced schemes for the retraining of everyone from disabled workers to redundant workers, which qualified under Community negotiations and criteria.

I have given two examples. No one will ever complain if it is given to disabled workers in Germany or anywhere else. I will not criticise the fact that the German Government were prudent enough to avail of this. In the interest of these workers they are better qualified to deal with these problems from their own resources than we would be. Maybe the Parliamentary Secretary could give some special attention to this area. The present Government always imply that Fianna Fáil remained in office so long because they stole their policies.

Only the good ones.

I am now suggesting positive initiatives. This is one which will be of benefit to the nation. Even if it means this Government gets the credit of putting in applications and getting money, that would be a small price for me to pay if the national interest is better served.

Was part of the difficulty because the European end had not been completed?

Not at all.

The German scheme may have been before the farm scheme came in.

No. That is a very broad statement. I do not know exactly what the Deputy means when he says that the European end had not been completed.

I am told that the directives on which these schemes were drafted——

They have been in operation since——

Is it not irrelevant since we are not a coal and steel country?

Is the Deputy suggesting we should not apply for anything?

No. In comparison with other nations——

The Deputy must be allowed to make his contribution without interruption.

This is the attitude I am trying to dispel. To suggest that simply because we are not a major coal and steel producing country we should not look to this fund is wrong. It is there for us and any other country to be exploited to whatever our maximum entitlement is. In my view we have not reached that point now.

The Deputy should take credit for this because if he does not no one will give it to him.

I appreciate that. The one thing to which we will bow to this Government on every occasion is their capacity to promote the little they do in the way to make it seem they have achieved magnificent results.

That is part of the public image.

There is not an area where this is being done better than in the Department under discussion. I envy the Minister his energy and Press relations.

But not his Parliamentary Secretary.

The Parliamentary Secretary could probably attend a few tutorials under his Minister on Press relations.

I am sure the Deputy will acknowledge that if there is an element of euphoria in his approach to Europe there is no man entitled to it more than the Minister. He was preaching the EEC here when no one else had even heard of it. He was an apostle of the EEC even before he came into politics or decided which party to join.

We will not go into the painstaking decisions he made before deciding which party to join. I suspect the Parliamentary Secretary did not give very serious thought to joining the Fianna Fáil Party, nor did Deputy Esmonde.

The Parliamentary Secretary seems to be saying that because of the Minister's commitment to the European Community there is a certain amount of euphoria. I do not think that is a very healthy state. Since my involvement in political life I have held the same view and have been a member of the Council of the European Movement since its establishment, as has the Minister. If I were to be asked who was the apostle of Europe, I would have to say the former Taoiseach, Mr. Seán Lemass. So much for maximising our benefits under the European Coal and Steel Community and from the funds of the social programme of the Community. I hope we will see a change of emphasis in this connection from the Government very shortly.

What I am about to say concerns policy decisions which are relevant to the bye-elections. Every Deputy can decide for himself if I am making an election speech, although I would have said it even if there had not been a bye-election next week. Apart from the fact that certain funds under the intervention scheme, the introduction of the green £ and the slaughter premium scheme were slow in coming, the money did not reach the people for whom it was intended.

Last April the introduction of the green £ and the slaughter premium was canvassed by the Government and discussed. For one reason or another the Government did not choose to introduce the green £ at the time, although the farming community who were fearful of rising costs and falling prices demanded its introduction. We on this side of the House were unanimous that it should be introduced. I suggest Members on the benches directly opposite were equally unanimous. But the Deputies in the next benches held a different view. The Government dallied for some months——

What date is the Deputy talking about?

I am talking about April-May, 1974, when it was quite clear from what Commissioner Lardinois said, and the Government did not deny, that the green £ could be introduced then but was not because it might have had the effect the Labour Party saw on the consumer price index. It was let go until September.

It is always nice to prove how right one was; many of us do. I said in the course of the last debate that because it was introduced so late it meant that benefits from the scheme would not reach the man who was primarily in need of them, the small store cattle man, until some months after its introduction. The first person to benefit would obviously be the big beef man and the market would not loosen out to benefit the small man until some months afterwards. I said last December when we were discussing European integration:

If the Government had a sense of urgency and awareness of the plight of small farmers they would have introduced it earlier so that the farmer about whom we are really concerned, the small man, would have had the benefit of the market loosening at a time when he had feeding for his stock. I am talking of August and September. No; they waited until October and then the small, west of Ireland farmer and the hill farmer in Tipperary or elsewhere found that because of the indecision of the Government they will come to benefit some time in February or March when the market will loosen. Meanwhile the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries said the other day that some farmers had been careless in making provision for winter feeding.

How right I was. Now I suppose the people of Galway will be told that cattle prices are moving. It was obvious then that they would. Unfortunately the scheme was introduced too late and small farmers panicked because of lack of feed and they sold to men who had the pockets to buy, the big beef producers, men who are not our primary worry.

The small farmers sold for half nothing. They left their store cattle in the marts and got drunk before they would even dream of taking them home. Having done so, they passed them on at ridiculously low prices to men who in February are selling at profits of between 100 per cent and 150 per cent. It happened because the Government did not introduce the scheme when they should have done. If it had been introduced in April the small man would have had his feed in July and August and could have maintained his cattle and sold them at the best prices.

Now he is supposed to be happy because cattle prices are picking up again when he has been robbed by Government indecision. This is not all hindsight because I said it last December, and before last December we screamed to high heaven about it. Is that what you call maximising your benefits out of EEC membership? The people who got the major benefits were never within the contemplation of those who framed the common agricultural policy.

This case was made umpteen times from these benches.

I have said I do not blame the Government because what they did not know they could not have cared about. If some members of the Government lived in rural constituencies they would have some idea of what those small farmers have suffered. They do not know what it is to see strong mountain men literally crying because of what happened. I do not blame a Government which are almost totally Dublin based.

Deputy Fitzpatrick lives in Cavan, Deputy Cooney lives in Athlone, Deputy O'Donnell lives in Limerick.

Yes, Deputy Pat Cooney is in Athlone. I know a little about Athlone. The Deputy probably knows this. If anyone said the people of Athlone belonged to the deprived west of Ireland they would laugh in his face. If the Deputy wants to understand the position he must live with it face to face. He would not then go around blandly denying that the meat processors, the meat industry, are getting the benefits that could and should have been given to the small farmers.

This is a far cry from the Deputy's statement about the green £. Members of the Deputy's party and I asked a specific question of Commissioner Lardinois and the answer was "no" to the green £. That was in June. Let us get the record straight.

That is the Deputy's version.

I was present.

Deputy James Gibbons was not there. He is a member of the European Parliament who is recognised as one of its ablest and most informed spokesmen in this area. Well in advance of June, as a result of Deputy Gibbons' discussions with Commissioner Lardinois——

Will the Deputy concede——

Deputy Esmonde can deal with it when it comes to his time. Deputy Esmonde knows that if there is one element which is well served in Brussels they are the farmers' associations of Ireland. They know what the position was last April. They know what was available. Let Deputy Esmonde tell them what he has told me now.

It is on the record of the House and I have said it before. I will stand over it.

That does not make it any more valid or true. I am not saying that the Deputy stated it as a falsehood. I merely want to pass on to another aspect of it which is something that has to be considered also. That would be bad enough if that was the end of the story—that the benefit passed to people who were not entitled to it but another thing happened. The national schemes which were and have been promoted by our Government for a considerable period —I am talking about the TB eradication scheme and the brucellosis scheme—were compromised and totally obstructed because the meat factories were too busy taking cattle under the intervention scheme and would not accept cattle from farmers which had to be slaughtered under those schemes. Many small farmers— and large ones for that matter—were queuing up at the meat factory doors to have their cattle accepted for slaughter under the bovine TB scheme. As Deputies will be aware— and the Parliamentary Secretary may be so aware even though he represents a city constituency—until such time as one's herd is cleared of its reactors, one cannot sell any of the others in the herd. Many of them were tied up for months because the meat factories were too busy taking cattle into intervention and making the bonanza they did make out of it. Many of those farmers could not even sell under the TB or brucellosis schemes.

I know this because I wrote to meat factories many times on behalf of farmers—I am sure many other Deputies must have experienced this also—who were queuing up waiting to get their cattle in for slaughter under those two schemes. I received no reply whatsoever for the simple reason that the position was unjustifiable. I wrote even to gentlemen I know personally whom I felt at least would acknowledge my letters. But even from those gentlemen in responsible positions I had no reply because they knew they could not justify their position in this area. They could justify it in terms of making money for themselves but not in terms of meeting the requirements of the bovine TB or brucellosis schemes.

That can hardly be called maximising our benefits under the European Community. In those two instances rather than maximising we seem almost to be determined to minimise. I hope those lessons will be learned. I hope we have not reached the stage where we recognise that whatever benefits there may be from being in Europe do not apply immediately to the persons whom we all have in mind unless the Government, who have the responsibility for the time being, are able to organise and administer the scheme to ensure that it does reach those for whom it was intended. Is it any wonder that the Germans, the Dutch, and the British for that matter are having a second think about the common agricultural policy and that the common agricultural policy is at the very centre of the question of the renegotiation of the terms of membership of Britain in the Community? If we think the main contributors do not know that the moneys received here have been reaching people who are already fairly secure and have not been reaching the people about whom we cry so loudly, we are fooling ourselves. They do know it. The Germans know it. The Dutch know it and we are weakening our own case for the development and maintenance of the common agricultural policy or its characteristics, if we do not ensure that we apply the funds available under that policy to the people in need of them.

There is another aspect with which I should deal and which is particularly topical at present. Unfortunately, I have had a very brief opportunity only of looking at this morning's papers. I refer to the proposed referendum to be held in the United Kingdom on their continuing membership of the Community. At this stage let me make the point that the Minister, the Parliamentary Secretary and the Government have been very well served with the increased staff they have got, perhaps understandably. In reply to a question recently in the House, I was told the actual personal staff of Ministers of this Government has increased by 50 per cent since they took office. But they should recognise the problems with which a Deputy on this side of the House has to cope without any personal staff whatsoever. There is a lot to be said in this very important area. Those of us representing rural constituencies have pressing problems there also. As has often been proved to be the case, we Deputies may get little thanks for our interest in Europe or in any other area in terms of the voting return at any particular election. Unfortunately, that may be a fact of life one has to face.

I take the Deputy's point very seriously but the Deputy will appreciate what we got through with much less money at our disposal.

I accept that. But apparently the Parliamentary Secretary does not appreciate what I am saying. In view of our membership of the Community, which was not the case when he was in Opposition, this area has become a much more complex one.

There is the Committee on the EEC Secondary Legislation.

There are important areas of this with which I do not have the time to deal.

I am not sure if the Deputy is a member of the Committee on the EEC Secondary Legislation.

I am, indeed.

That committee is, in fact, served by a very competent staff provided at public expense.

The Parliamentary Secretary had better ask Deputies Esmonde and Staunton about that. They could tell him a bit more about it. The Parliamentary Secretary must not be a member of it himself. If he was, he would not make those glib statements but I do not want to criticise the competency of those who serve on it.

I know its numbers. I know its size. It does not correspond to what was sought originally but it is something which never existed before.

Of course, it did not because the question did not arise before. Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware of the date of our accession to the Community? Is the Parliamentary Secretary suggesting that such a committee should have been in existence when we were not even members of the Community?

I would be glad to hear Deputy O'Kennedy's point.

This related to the entire field of foreign affairs which was a very important thing at the time we were having the referendum about the Community and the years before that. The back-up work of Opposition Deputies then had to be done by themselves.

That is a fact I recognise and I think the Parliamentary Secretary made that point already. What I am saying now—and there can hardly be doubt about this —is that the scene has changed much more since then.

I accept that.

I presumed the Parliamentary Secretary would do so. The volume of documents coming from the Community, in order to keep oneself reasonably informed of them, as a member of the Committee on the EEC Secondary Legislation or anything else, is overwhelming to say the least of it. I do not necessarily envy the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary because no matter what staff one has available one still has to rely on one's own capacity. To find time to write speeches which have to be written to put across our view poses enormous problems for those of us on this side of the House. I would be glad to discharge my responsibility to the House more effectively if I had both the time and opportunity so to do. But representing a country constituency, one's constituents want to see one once in a while. They want to see one responding to their personal problems. That poses real problems. If you like, it is one man against the organisation, and I am not speaking against the organisation in such terms. I am merely suggesting to the Parliamentary Secretary that there is a crushing need, particularly now, for proper secretarial allowances and facilities so that we can discharge our responsibilities as we are elected to do. You know, there are no votes in Europe generally.

As one of the representatives on the Committee on Procedure and Privileges dealing with this matter, I might say that this matter was discussed in some detail with the Minister for the Public Service the other day.

Now that Deputy Esmonde has mentioned it, I should like to acknowledge the services which he and other members of that committee have rendered in this whole area. I know the Deputy's personal interest in and commitment to this question, an interest and commitment which his father before him had in all of these areas.

I was informed just two days ago that this report would be coming up for discussion today. The impression had been conveyed to me that the motion on integration on which I had already spoken, and on which I could not again speak, was to be discussed this morning. The material is available but to plough through it is another matter. In this regard I must apologise to the House for the fact that my contribution is to a certain extent a little disjointed but the notice given to me was very short.

This morning I had the first opportunity of reading the reports about the British referendum. I only got around to doing this now because, unfortunately, one of the duties of an Opposition spokesman on Foreign Affairs is that he must attend diplomatic receptions. I often pity the Minister in this regard but at least in his case other members of the Government can share the burden of the hospitality with him. Again this is a problem which curtails the time of an Opposition spokesman on Foreign Affairs. On the basis that I saw this report for the first time this morning I hope the House will be a little tolerant with me in my views. Over the weekend I hope to have an opportunity of giving a more detailed appraisal of the consequences of this. This report is almost silent on the question of British renegotiations. The matter is dealt with in a short paragraph:

As indicated in the Third Report the British Government has stated that once "renegotiation" was complete it would form a view on whether the needs of the UK had been met. In submitting the result to the people it would make clear its verdict on what has been achieved. The Irish Government is studying the situation and examining the options that would be open to Ireland in the event of a British withdrawal from the Community.

That is as far as this report goes on the question of British renegotiation and our attitude to it. In my view it is not adequate.

I went further than that in my speech.

It is covered more adequately in that speech.

Nobody could be in any doubt, having read the speech, about the Government's position.

While I am searching for that reference I should like to quote this gem from the Parliamentary Secretary's speech which will confirm points I was making earlier:

Given the economic difficulties currently facing the Community however, the establishment of so sizeable a Fund represents a truly remarkable example of Community solidarity by our partners.

Did any Member ever hear the likes of that for jargon or nonsense? One would imagine that we had reached the edge of Valhalla.

The Deputy will acknowledge that it is something of a milestone that we got many millions of pounds as a gift into our hands. This has never happened here before.

The Parliamentary Secretary is doing less than justice to his own position now.

The Deputy is doing less than justice to the Communities.

That kind of phraseology is out of touch with reality.

It was accompanied by an acknowledgment that it was still not sufficient.

Nobody believes that it was a truly remarkable example of community solidarity, not even the members of the Community.

It never happened before in the history of the world, leaving aside Marshall aid.

This only proves that in politics one can try to defend any position. It is obvious that it is anything but a truly remarkable example of Community solidarity and a truly remarkable achievement. It is the very opposite and everybody knows that. I accept that it is an achievement.

Anybody, looking from the year 1950, being told that we would get a hand-out of this nature would not have believed it.

It is certainly not a hand-out. It is our entitlement from a regional fund of a Community which had its principles stated in the Treaty of Rome and restated at the Paris summit.

The money is coming from somewhere. We can talk about begging but the Deputy will agree that his party and my party jointly advised the people to vote "yes" in the EEC referendum and the main point was that from Ireland's point of view there would be more to be got than we would be required to contribute. It has to come from somewhere; I do not mind what the Deputy calls it but it will remain a gift.

I admire the Parliamentary Secretary for what I could describe as his fierce honesty but his fierce honesty here is misplaced. I do not want to comment any further on it. The Parliamentary Secretary ran into trouble in this regard before and I sympathise with him for the reaction to his answer when others might have got a more favourable reaction by being a little less honest.

The Deputy is disarming me now and it would be impossible for me to interrupt any longer.

I should now like to refer to the question of British renegotiation and the Parliamentary Secretary's statement about this. In the course of his speech he said:

Naturally, the Government hope, and we are working towards ensuring, that the UK remain in the Community. As indicated in the fourth report we are studying the options open to Ireland in the event of a British withdrawal; it does not appear, however, that Ireland's economic and political interests would be best served by following suit.

That is the only reference to what Ireland's position would be in the event of Britain withdrawing. Surely the Parliamentary Secretary does not feel that that is an adequate statement of our position?

It is brief, but its meaning is clear.

I know the Parliamentary Secretary has a precedent in the seat he is sitting in now for brevity. In fact, if he wants precedents for silence he will find them in the man who generally occupies that seat.

It is better than the wordy treatises we were accustomed to from his predecessor, well intentioned though I know they were.

The Parliamentary Secretary will not find the precedent for silence in men who occupy other seats.

There is no ambiguity in my statement.

The statement says that Ireland's best interests would not be best served by following suit and that is as far as it goes. The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, answering for the Minister for Foreign Affairs, said in the last two months that he could not be expected to make a fair and clear statement of what our attitude would be in the event of British withdrawal. He said it was a matter almost too important for him to deal with on that occasion. There is an area of doubt in this regard and I should like to know what studies are being undertaken in this matter. We have seen no evidence of these studies with the exception of the statement contained in this report. Six months ago no studies had been undertaken or launched in any Department or semi-State body.

I will deal with that matter when I am replying.

No studies were carried out as to what our options would be in the event of Britain deciding to withdraw, particularly if we were to remain members. This is a very serious matter for the nation. The attitude of the British Government is, to some extent, weakening the resolve of the Community. It may well be that the Labour Government in England do not wish to apply the whip even to their own Government as regards the steps they can take on this referendum campaign. That shows a lack of commitment to the Community.

It is a free vote situation.

We know all about free votes. It may well be that the Tories have the same view and, as seems to be the case, for reasons of national political advantage in Britain neither the Government nor the Opposition will take a firm, consistent stand and say that this is what they as a Government or as an Opposition are standing for. This idea of having a split Government going their own free and easy way on such a vitally important matter is not good enough. It is one thing in connection with a contraceptive debate but it is another thing altogether when it arises in connection with the future economic interests of a nation in Europe.

What I am worried about is this: if the present British Government for reasons of political protection at home are adopting this attitude, can we be sure of the attitude any British Government might adopt three years on if political interests, even short-term political interests, seem to dictate that they would reverse decisions taken in three months' time? How can we be convinced that they have a real determination to be members of the Community?

Has the British Prime Minister not stated that he would recommend remaining in the Community if the terms negotiated were satisfactory?

Yes, if satisfactory. They seem to be more concerned with gaining the political point that the terms the present British Government have negotiated are so much better than what the previous Tory Administration negotiated. I am not convinced that this arises out of the British Prime Minister's interest in or commitment to Europe. I heard the British Prime Minister speak some years ago in Westminster on this, and within 12 months he had changed his tack completely on it. We should say to the British Government that we think they, as a Government, even though it is a matter for their own national Government, should decide clearly what they are going to do.

Does the Deputy mean that the Irish Government should tell them or——

We as a nation are entering into a commitment with them as a nation which is represented by their Government. We are entitled to think now, if we were not already entitled to think on their accession to the Community, that this is an end of it. No nation in the European Community should be left in the position that there may be some doubt in three years' time if the Tories decide that they can negotiate better terms, and we take a turn on the merry-go-round again. We should not be worried about "exacerbating relations with the British Government". We seem to have been worried about that in so many areas that we will not speak out clearly as a member of the Community who have rights as well as responsibilities.

We share the view expressed by the Government here, in fact we have gone further and said: "Irrespective of what Britain does, we will stay in." We have not the resources of the Government to undertake studies but we have a belief in the potential of our economy. I can give some preliminary indications of this, but I shall deal with it at greater length over the week-end in a seminar when I have an opportunity of considering all of this. I know that, irrespective of what Britain does, we, if in Government, will stay in. I hope the Government will say not just that it does not appear that Ireland's economic or political interests would be best served by following suit. Let them say now at a time when it may influence the British position: "We will remain members of the Community". We have not heard that from the Government yet. We must hear it before the referendum takes place, for obvious reasons, because while we may not be a major influence or a major economic element in Europe, we are a significant element in the trade relations of the United Kingdom. A clear and unequivocal stance of that nature could and might have an influence in the outcome of this referendum.

For many reasons, not just from the point of view of trade relations but also from the point of view of historical associations with the British people and Government, on which one does not need to elaborate in this House. I believe we can serve our mutual interests best and reach our common goal best by their continuing membership of the Community, that we can establish closer relations with them by their continued membership, that in the whole area of Northern Ireland we can work to discharge our common obligations and to relieve the misery that has been so much part of that scene. I am not saying this from the point of view of national self-interest but in the interests of what I hope will be a real and fruitful understanding between our two countries as continuing members of the European Economic Community.

That passing reference to the North of Ireland reminded me of another point I wanted to make. We here in the South are well represented in the institutions of the Community both at the Council of Ministers' level and the European Parliament level. We are also well represented and well served by the various organisations that serve the various committees of the EEC. Many of them have a very detailed and sophisticated knowledge of the operations of the Community —for instance, the Irish Farmers' Association, the ICC, and the Confederation of Irish Industry. We too have a responsibility for representing the unrepresented, in other words, the North of Ireland, in the Community and in our attitude towards that Community. It is a sad fact that there is no representation of the North of Ireland in the European Parliament. The North of Ireland is not represented in the Council of Ministers, as we are. They may be represented by members from the Westminster Government but they are not in any way represented as effectively as we are. This situation creates both an obligation and an opportunity for us in our attendance at the various institutions of the Community. First, our members at the European Parliament must remember at all times the interests of the community in the North. For instance, to take the area of the farming community, and it is obvious that the farming community in the North recognise this, the interests both of our farmers and of theirs coincide very much but the interests of their farmers do not coincide necessarily with the attitude of the British Government in relation to the CAP. Therefore, through our spokesman we should be heard expressing our concern for the interests of those farmers. I am glad to say that the members from this party have reacted to my suggestion in this regard. In the area of farming and in other areas also, we must not take a narrow partitionist view although I realise there are delicate nuances here and that we must not convey the impression to those who do not want our help that they will get it, regardless.

That is the point.

I accept that but at the same time if we show a real concern for the interests of these people they will find it difficult to reject our sincerity. Prejudice may be the root of all the trouble but we would not expect them to bite the hand that feeds.

I recognise the Deputy's well-meaning observations but if he reads the editorials in the Belfast papers he will get a background against which to measure the likely result of efforts by this Government to represent the interests of the Northern majority.

I accept that because such a situation would be self-defeating. The exercise is a delicate one. There is the whole area of cross-Border projects in respect of which our obligations must be great.

This is a very broad area on which one could expand but the final point I would make is to emphasise the importance of having the various committees of the Council of the European Community as representative as possible of the interests concerned. I am referring to the list of committees which the Minister gave me some time ago and of which there are almost 200. In the first instance I was sorry to note that no chairman of those committees was from outside the public service. The reason for this, the Minister said, was that matters of Government policy might arise and that, accordingly, one could not nominate to such positions people who might not necessarily express the Government view. He acknowledged, however, that there is no prohibition within the institution on people from outside the public service being nominated as presidents or chairmen of the various committees. But he told me that members of semi-State bodies are acting as chairman of some of these committees. Surely neither the Minister nor his Parliamentary Secretary will suggest that members of semi-State bodies are obliged to express Government policy? That would be far from the truth but, apparently they are qualified to act as chairmen of these committees while others who are very well qualified, be they in the vocational area, in the farming organisations or in industrial or professional organisations, are not entitled to act in this capacity. It is of vital importance that opportunity and responsibility be given to those who are both interested and qualified to take part in these committees. These people have proved themselves very highly qualified to undertake this task. We must ensure that they be fully and effectively represented.

In conclusion I pose the question as to whether the fact of Ireland holding the presidency at present has had any reaction from the people. Has it aroused any public interest or involvement? Those who are aware of it at all will know no more than that there was a meeting of the Foreign Ministers of the nine a few weeks ago. They may know that there will be, not a summit, but a meeting of the heads of Government shortly. They will know that our Ministers have been involved very actively during the course of the presidency but to what extent has this involved the Irish people in the community? The organisations I have mentioned must be involved if we are to benefit from membership of the Community and also if we are to contribute something by virtue of our membership.

The question of what we can do for Europe is, perhaps, more important than to ask what Europe can do for us and the test will be in terms of our actions, of reality and not of pretence. These reports are euphoric in the extreme but having regard to the general theme of them and to the Parliamentary Secretary's speech today, it looks as if we will at least be able to put the truck back on the rails of reality. Let us not become injected with the verbiage that has been flowing from Europe during the past few years but which, unfortunately, has not been followed so far by performance.

I welcome the opportunity of speaking to the Parliamentary Secretary's speech on these two reports. I listened with some interest to Deputy O'Kennedy's contribution and before embarking on my speech I would like to refer to some points made by him.

I do not agree with his attitude vis-á-vis the British position and the question of Prime Minister Wilson's visit to Moscow or to the issues within Britain of, for example, whether they are to continue their membership of the EEC. To a degree these internal matters are outside the province of relevance to us. The present is a most insensitive time to speak in this manner about the single issue which is probably the most important in the EEC for the next five years where Ireland is concerned. If we are looking to the British position and to the difficulties that exist in that economy and, also, to the British people's disillusionment with the EEC—and this disillusionment exists there to an infinitely greater extent than here— our presidency of the EEC provides us with the greatest single opportunity of influencing Britain to remain within the EEC.

It is in our national interest to ensure that Britain remains in the Community. Carping about the fact that the British Prime Minister went to Russia and engaged in bilateral discussions, and implying that in a sense this is reneging on the concept of collective responsibility in the EEC, is not desirable at this time. In terms of diplomacy and otherwise, we must do all in our power to influence the British people to stay in the Community. The British Government are well competent to judge the realities of politics and British public opinion. Condescending advice from this country on this matter will not be helpful.

We are President of the EEC for the next few months and we should seek to remove any reservations the British people may have about the EEC. Deputy O'Kennedy referred to the Irish situation if the British decide to opt out of the Community. He was critical of the Parliamentary Secretary's speech and of the scant coverage of the Fourth Report on Developments in the European Communities vis-á-vis our position if Britain opts out. I agree with the viewpoint expressed by the Parliamentary Secretary and with the statement in the fourth report. If Britain decides to opt out it is still very much in our interest to remain members of the Community.

I do not think Deputy O'Kennedy has been altogether fair in his criticisms of the Minister for Foreign Affairs. On numerous occasions the Minister has inferred that Ireland will do all in its power to remain in the Community regardless of the position Britain might be in. I support this view completely. However, we must be realistic and accept that the Anglo-Irish trading position is of immense importance to us. While there has been a reduction proportionately in our trade with Britain as compared with other European countries, with the Far East, the United States and Japan, nevertheless an enormous proportion of trade in both directions is involved with Great Britain. It is the largest market by far for our agricultural products.

If Britain opts out it is feasible for Ireland to remain in the Community but there will be tremendous difficulties, especially in the agricultural sector, and in other areas also. We are fortunate Ireland has the presidency of the EEC for the next few months. Probably we have a greater appreciation about the British position because of our close connection for many years and we are also extremely concerned so far as the North of Ireland is concerned. Before entry into the EEC we pointed out that membership of the Community of the Republic of Ireland and the North of Ireland would be a factor that would be helpful towards the ultimate reunification of the country. Therefore, in so far as this issue is affected by EEC membership it is at stake. All of this points out the serious and critical position and I hope that the Minister for Foreign Affairs, particularly in the next few months, will recognise this as the single most important issue so far as our involvement in the EEC is concerned. A major initiative can be seized by this country in the interests of Europe also because European reunification would be somewhat less significant if Britain decided to opt out.

I consider that the statement in the fourth report on this matter was correct. I do not want to describe a Doomsday situation but should Britain decide to leave the Community it will involve us in substantial negotiations. However, I do not see the relevance of an Irish Government or Department now setting out in great depth what we would do in that event. It is superfluous at this stage to go into this matter in depth. Should Britain decide to leave the Community the initiative will not be entirely with us. It will involve substantial negotiations with the EEC and with Britain and, to a degree, it will have to be played day by day when the time comes. I hope we can bring to bear what pressure is available to us in a diplomatic sense to encourage Britain to remain in the EEC and I am confident they will decide to stay.

Deputy O'Kennedy was critical of the attitude of the Minister for Foreign Affairs in that he suggested the Minister was seeking a major influence for Ireland within Europe. He suggested the Minister was attempting to equate the role of Ireland in Europe with that of France, Germany or other powerful nations rather than staying with the smaller countries such as Luxembourg, Belgium and The Netherlands. That is an unfair charge because during our presidency of the EEC it is desirable that there should be a major Irish input into the EEC. We can bring a broad, objective perspective to bear; as we are a small country we have a greater sense of detachment and, thus, we might be regarded as being somewhat objective. The thinking that can emanate from a small country like Ireland can be significant and possibly much more objective than the major powers such as Britain, Germany and France. If the Minister for Foreign Affairs aspired to having less than a major Irish influence at this time he would be reneging on his own responsibilities and those of the country.

Some disparaging remarks have been made about the size of the regional fund. I propose later to be critical about some aspects of the fund but it is true that the Taoiseach and the Minister for Foreign Affairs last autumn took an initiative in effectively blocking the Paris summit unless a guarantee was given that the regional fund would be established, and this was done. The initiative we took at that time was very influential in the establishment of the fund.

I am glad to note that the heads of Government at their recent meeting firmly rejected recourse to protectionist measures to tackle economic difficulties. This is very much in the interests of small countries such as Ireland. If major countries decided to go their own way in a difficult situation, if they decided to make bilateral arrangements and agreements, it could be extremely damaging to the entire economic fabric. Without question our interests are protected by the rejection of any protectionist measures within countries.

I will now give one or two examples. We were very fortunate in the original negotiations in that we managed to retain incentives, as a fairly underdeveloped country in comparison with other countries in the Community, in the area of taxes and cash grants to manufacturing industries setting up here. These are major advantages but there is always the risk, if protectionist measures are bilateral, that we could be in trouble.

With regard to the recent attempt by the Minister for Industry and Commerce to protect to a greater degree the textile and footwear industries and his negotiations in Brussels, we must recognise that the Minister has a problem and that he is not an entirely free agent for the reason to which I have referred. If we were to take bilateral decisions which might suit the country in the short term we would leave ourselves wide open to retaliation and counter-measures by the other member states from the point of view of incentives and from the point of view of free trade in the Community.

Speaking about the textile and footwear problems in the context of the EEC disturbs me very much because the reality is that this problem emanates from the British Commonwealth. Had we never joined the EEC what is happening today would have happened under the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement because the goods about which we complain are goods coming in through Britain from Commonwealth countries. The difficulty stems therefore from the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement and not from our membership of the EEC and it is unfair to blame the EEC for the present situation. If we want to develop our exports to a market of 250 million people, the only way in which that can be done is through free trade which, in the long term, is greatly to the interests of this country.

I welcome one point Deputy O'Kennedy made. I do not suggest he had any ulterior motive in making the point. He referred to the regional fund, and here I hope he reflects the attitude of his party, and he said that the most impoverished and underdeveloped part of this country is the west and he saw that fund as one that should be spent mainly in the west. When I say the west I do not mean merely the province of Connacht; I include such counties as Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal. These also have problems. If there is any question of this regional fund being used to supplement existing schemes or lost in a central pool then we will lose sight of the main purpose behind the fund. One can quibble about this. One can point to west Wicklow and even to areas in Dublin city and pockets in parts of Louth, Waterford and Wexford as meriting assistance but, when one does that, one is really quibbling with the issue in the context of the level of development or, rather, lack of it, the disparity in income levels and the disparity in job opportunity and wealth. Using all these indices normally used to measure development, or lack of it, one finds that the west is that area which is worst off.

In the EEC referendum campaign when we were giving the reasons to the people of the west as to why we should join we held out two major economic reasons. These were in the area of the common agricultural policy and in the area of regional policy because we knew there was a definite commitment in the CAP sector. We also knew there was a weakness where CAP and the west were concerned. That weakness showed itself in cattle prices this winter. We were talking about very small farms with very low valuations, without a fraction of the prosperity that exists in other parts of the country, and we pointed particularly to the regional development fund, a fund under which Europe was committed to a levelling up of standards and equalisation of opportunity.

If we were going to look at the less well off parts of Europe and develop a policy of commitment and support for such reasons the west was the worst region in Europe, including Mezzogiorno in southern Italy. This is still the reality and if we start quibbling about west Wicklow, and so on, we shall miss the point and we shall not make any fundamental attempt to redress the appalling imbalance which exists as between east and west. We are talking about a very small country. There are certain very worthwhile developments in the west at the moment. We can see the possibility of further infrastructural development in the building of harbours and so on. The limiting factor is not the capacity to attract industries or the capacity of the people to work or the administration of local authorities or central Government; the limiting factor is money. From that point of view we see this fund as a source of finance for those schemes about which we are concerned.

It pains me a little sometimes to dwell unduly on western areas because this is a national Parliament but those of us elected to represent that area were elected with a commitment to the people we represent and we have to point out the problems and suggest possible solutions.

Where the EEC fund is concerned, it presents other opportunities to the Government because the Minister for Finance with his additional portfolio of Minister for the Public Services referred some time ago to the fact that the Government were examining the structures and organisations of sub-national Government. Many of us are hopeful that the result of these studies will lead to conclusions which will involve new structures or the emergence of certain development boards. This study is taking place at a very appropriate time because if new structures emanate as a result of these investigations part of this fund could be used in a very fundamental way for the development of these structures and a certain measure of autonomy within the province.

In 1974, the country benefited to the extent of £90 million in economic terms from membership of the EEC. I have not attempted to break down this figure but we know the major subventions in the area of milk, for example, and we have seen the operation of intervention. What Deputy O'Kennedy had to say on this issue was fair comment. Through the past winter there has been an enormous discontent amongst smallholders. There was a real fear in the early part of the winter about what might happen where store cattle were concerned because of a scarcity of fodder.

The Government had a major problem. Attempting to arrange that intervention went down the line was an extremely difficult matter. When the chips were down the Government introduced policies of support with the cattle feed voucher and loan schemes which allowed farmers to hold over their cattle and feed them. Happily, at that very critical time two other things happened: we had one of the mildest winters for years and an upturn in the price of cattle. This gave farmers a certain amount of confidence to borrow and to use the vouchers to effect. The Government have done their bit.

It is true that funds from intervention went to the big farmers, to the east, the south and the meat factories. It is also true that EEC funds from the common agricultural policy are going to the east and the south. On examination one will find that a very small proportion of that fund is coming to the west. We were talking about development aid and the Third World. As a nation we have been pushing the EEC for the last three or four years to recognise the imbalances in Europe. If we are committed to the ideal of redressing imbalances, we must now look to our own country to see what can be done to help those parts of the country in most need.

The nation must keep abreast of EEC institutions and the knowledge coming from them. When we joined the EEC for many people it was the end of the line rather than the start of a long journey. It was the end of the line in the sense that there was a campaign, a referendum, and people decided how they would vote. The issue was decided and then there was a full stop. This is a continuing, abiding and most important issue. To a degree it is even undermining the authority of this House.

In broad terms, the political parties at Front Bench level are au fait with what is happening in Europe, as are the Government Departments and semi-state bodies. I am not satisfied that there is a sufficiently good knowledge of what Europe and the institutions are all about and the facilities, grants and loan schemes available to many areas throughout the country. At times we are getting less than we might out of membership through this lack of knowledge. There is an attitude in the provinces which suggests that they must depend on the Government, Ministers and civil service centrally for this knowledge. We should do what we can to promote this knowledge.

We should encourage visits from the provinces to Brussels. This should be a continuing issue. When speaking of the provinces I am talking about elected members of local authorities, members of chambers of commerce, trade unions, farming organisations, such as Macra na Feirme, and vocational groups. They should have a greater awareness of what is happening.

I should like the Parliamentary Secretary in his reply to refer to the backlog in the roads programme in rural Ireland. In Mayo by present standards, it will take another 15 years to tar existing county council roads, not counting Board of Works roads. We are using national funds for this purpose. We were told recently that Britain and Italy have been using FEOGA funds for country roads serving farmhouses and farmers involved in the delivery of milk and other produce. If we could do this it would speed up the road development programme very significantly. This should be looked into. This is an example of what I am thinking about. If a road programme costs about £500,000, a subvention of 25 per cent would amount to £125,000. Unless there is sufficient knowledge and satisfactory negotiations with Brussels these funds will not emerge. This shows the dangers of local authorities or vocational schools leaving themselves totally in the hands of central Government institutions for advice and knowledge of Brussels institutions. Had they been properly advised, they would be using FEOGA funds.

In his speech the Parliamentary Secretary referred to the Euro-Arab dialogue. This is one of the most important initiatives before the EEC at this time. A Euro-Arab Commission has been formed, with of course participation from both sides. There are five working committees in this Commission in the areas of agriculture, industry, infrastructure, finance, culture and technology. This may be very remote from Ireland and Dublin, but it is very important because of the significance pragmatically of the Arab world and the changed economic circumstances of the world today.

As a member of the European Parliamentary Association for Euro-Arab co-operation I am au fait with what is happening in this area. With colleagues from this House I went during the Recess to Cairo, Damascus and Beirut and engaged in this type of dialogue at parliamentary level. In my view, we approach this matter from the wrong angle. We are aware of the economic significance of the Arab world at the present time in terms of finance and oil. When we speak of Euro-Arab dialogue we tend to talk exclusively of economic matters and think Euro-Arab dialogue means the borrowing of money or making deals so far as the future oil position is concerned. If we are serious about this dialogue we must get away from this very narrow and monetary approach.

I should like to refer to a meeting in Paris some months ago with Commissioner Cheysson who has responsibility for Euro-Arab relations. I should like to quote briefly what he said about this because it is important. It is also important that we get back to certain fundamentals in this area if we are not to debase the dialogue in which we are engaging. The Commissioner said:

I should like first of all to say from a negative point of view that in my opinion that the approach most frequently heard in Europe about relations with the Arab countries will get nowhere at all. If we put ourselves forward solely as salesmen for equipment and engineering or borrowers of capital, we are in direct competition among ourselves, which means that we shall all be outbidding each other.

On the other hand, if we are ready to think about the aspirations of our partners on the other side of the Mediterranean we can see that we Europeans have some profoundly original contributions to make within the framework of their ambitions.

First, in the political field ... for the political background is fundamental in the approach to the Arab world. The Arab countries want peace. You stress this in point 11 of your Economic Resolution of Damascus. They want peace: it is essential for their development and aspirations. But peace is as important for us as for them. Peace is indivisible between Europe and the Mediterranean. When we had a war in Europe, they suffered from it.... They have the war in the Middle East and this creates tough problems for us.

Equally, our partners on the other side of the Mediterranean realise that to be the play-ground of the two super-powers can be fun for a while, can lead to dazzling results in terms of armaments but finally gives rise to disaster. Without a doubt on the other side of the Mediterranean the Arabs—and in my view the Israelis—want to set up a permanent system not totally dependent on the good will or conflicts between Americans and Russians.

I am trying to say that Euro-Arab dialogue is concerned about a very neglected aspect of life and history, a dialogue between Europe with 250 million people and an Arab world of about 200 million people which is completely misunderstood by the vast majority in our society. We are concerned with fundamentals such as politics and culture, in addition to questions of agriculture, industry and finance.

The misconceptions some of the people have about the Arab world is in relation to money. They look at it in a generalised way without defining it. The thing we are losing sight of particularly is that within the world with which we are attempting to have dialogue there are countries, for example in the Gulf, with relatively small populations but with the most extraordinary wealth, but there are other countries within the Arab world, such as Syria and Egypt which has a population of about 39 million. Some of these countries are utterly impoverished and at the moment a major portion of their budgets are taken up with defence. They have the most extraordinary type of poverty which does not exist in our world.

Therefore, if we are talking about dialogue we must begin to understand the people to whom we are talking, and it is crude and obscene to believe, for instance, that this dialogue is about the crudity of mere money or finance, the borrowing of money. There is an Islamic culture there, there is dignity and position, and if we can have proper rapport there is a tremendous opportunity for Europe because of our affinity with and our proximity to that world and because Europe can be a buffer against the super-powers in the east and in the west. As well as that, the colonial background has led to a certain imbibing of European culture within the Arab countries.

There is an opportunity for Ireland which does not exist for many countries in this particular dialogue. However, unless we tackle it fundamentally, the benefits that could accrue to this country would not emerge. There is a particular benefit to Ireland in the sense that the emergence of many of the Arab countries from the colonial past is on a parallel with the Irish position in the early part of the century. We are in a unique position in this regard and it is important that we do not debase ourselves by thinking that this dialogue begins and ends with pounds, shillings and pence.

Finally on the Arab note, I should like to refer briefly to the position in the UN a few months ago when there was a discussion on the Palestinian position and the Irish Government supported the permitting of Arafat to speak on behalf of the Palestinians. There was criticism here at the time by a number of people of the Minister for Foreign Affairs, and the rationale behind the criticism was how was supporting Arafat to be equated with condemnation of IRA activities? That criticism was not really answered but there is a very simple answer to it. Whether one likes it or not, Arafat officially represents the viewpoint of the Palestinian Liberation Organisation. Not only that, but from the Rabat Conference last year, Arafat represents the viewpoint on the Palestinians of the entire Arab world. Therefore, if one is talking about the position of Arafat and wants to get an Irish parallel, one can think of the independence movement here in the late teens and early 1920s. At that time a new Irish Government was emerging and the independence movement represented the Irish public by definition even before the emergence of an Irish Government. There is no comparison between that position and that in the country today where the IRA have no mandate from anybody to say or do anything.

I am glad to note that the mountain and hill farm scheme has finally emerged. For a long time we have been awaiting the emergence of that scheme. It was adopted about two weeks ago and we look to its implementation in districts where there will be considerable welcome for it.

Recently there was considerable criticism in the Press of the EEC Committee on Secondary Legislation which to a degree monitor the EEC position from an Irish viewpoint. The criticism had to do with the small attendances at meetings. The committee have had difficulties to contend with, most of which have now been resolved. We have now got new offices into which we shall be moving soon and the Minister for the Public Service has allowed us to employ four people. The full complement will have been completed in about two or three weeks and we are now in a position to tackle the work for which we have been established. The problem with this committee and with other committees in the House has been the conflicting interests, the time available to Deputies to do work. I note that Deputy de Valera is here. He is chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts.

We have shared that problem together.

Our Parliamentary system is archaic by comparison with any other institution in this country from the point of view of management, resources and delegation. If we are serious in the long run in having satisfactory committees of this House, it is unrealistic to talk about such things as controlling as much as a single semi-State company until such time as our present house is in order because it is physically impossible to do it. If we are concerned with what I should like to describe as the primacy of politics, if we are serious about the statement that the Dáil is concerned with the running of this country, then we have got to supplement to a great degree the resources of Members at present, especially in a secretarial sense. Unless Members have the capacity and the staff to whom they can delegate much of the work to be done, then it will be physically impossible to cope with the workload arising from the EEC and from the other proposals about which we are speaking.

As I said recently in the House, in this time of economic gloom, and depression to a degree, it gives me a certain amount of pride to watch the development of the country within the EEC. We tend to underestimate some things to which we are very close. But it is not many years since this country was much more independent, in one sense, but dependent in another. While we have critics of the institution of the EEC at present, criticism in detail of the regional policy, criticism in some detail of the implementation of the intervention scheme for cattle, broadly speaking, if we look at what has happened since the economic crisis with regard to oil, if we were outside the EEC, with Britain our principal customer and nearest neighbour involved in Europe, we would be in an infinitely more critical position than at present. I think we should note as well the pride I feel reflected in this country when we see the great opportunities presented to it at present in assuming the presidency of a group of nations of 250 million people, the degree to which the Taoiseach, the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Minister for Finance can be effective on the European scene and the added dimension that gives to the Irish character which is something on which we should reflect occasionally and give a certain amount of credit where it is due.

I am sorry the Minister for Foreign Affairs was not here to make the introductory speech this morning. I noted that Deputy O'Kennedy was critical of that fact. In fairness to the Minister for Foreign Affairs, he is one of those people who has generally made himself extremely accessible to the House and he simply was not in a position to be present today. I think, with respect to the Parliamentary Secretary, it was probably an adequate arrangement because we are not talking about the Estimates for Foreign Affairs. Of course, the Minister was here for his Estimates. We are merely talking about one of the statutory reporting occasions which happen twice yearly and to that degree, considering the workload of the Minister at present during his six months presidential term, he can be excused.

Before Deputy Staunton leaves the House after his very interesting contribution, I should like to ask him if something he said was a quotation. If it was, I should like to trouble him to supplement it for me. I am referring to the point where he used the phrase: "play-ground of two super powers". He was then making a plea of which I think some notice should be taken.

It was a quotation from a speech made by Cheysson who was Commissioner in this area.

I wonder could Deputy Staunton make that available to me immediately because I should like to commence by making some comments on Deputy Staunton's stimulating speech. We may come in with our set theses but the essence of debate is the exchange of view and, when one speaker raises points that stimulate another, that is a constructive approach. Therefore, I should like to refer to a couple of things Deputy Staunton said which I think are of considerable importance. Firstly, and this has a very definite bearing not only on this Parliament but on our place in the EEC and on the functioning of the EEC—it is something of basic importance, strictly within the terms I submit of this motion and also in the more narrow terms presented by Deputy Staunton —under modern conditions if democracy is to be made to work we must face the realities of it.

Deputy Staunton referred to the difficulties of a committee and the need for support for that committee in a practical way. I would wholeheartedly commend this line of thinking to the House, to the service and to the Government. It is not that anyone wants to operate Parkinson's Law. In fact, it is to defeat the operation of the said Parkinson's Law and with a view to efficiency that it becomes important that one has organisation of the functions to be discharged whether they be in Brussels, Dublin, any other capital, in the European Parliament or in any other Parliament. If one accepts the premise I am accepting—which I presume is generally accepted—that it is a democratic institution and system that we need, then the practical functions of democracy can be attained only by a proper organisation of what I might call, without the odium sometimes attached to the term which I try to avoid as far as possible, the bureaucracy.

The point made by Deputy Staunton which I want to reinforce is this. If all the complexities of detail are left to one section, that is, the permanent service—what I will refer to in the European context as the bureaucracy but in our context the Civil Service— it is, as I pointed out on other occasions, unfair to the service, reduces the Parliament in the first instance to inefficiency and finally deprives the Government of balance, makes it completely dependent on its permanent service which in the last analysis is the Government of the country. This was a problem about which I was going to speak in the broader context of Europe under this motion but Deputy Staunton's timely reference to it was a good starting point. Therefore, one essential in making Parliament, whether the European Parliament or this one, effective is to break up the work into sizeable mouthfuls, if you like, to be dealt with as they arise, and that can be done only through the proper functioning of parliamentary committees.

There must be care, of course, that there is not a cross-up on the function of the permanent service, that there is not a cross-up on the Government in discharging proper parliamentary business. In order to make these committees effective there are two big problems, the demand that is made on the individual Member of the House for services and, secondly, the necessary ancilliary organisation—the secretarial and administrative support that is needed to make a committee effective.

This is a problem with every business and the State services must realise that if there is an additional burden put on additional personnel or additional methods must be found to get the work done. When speaking on the Finance Bill yesterday, I mentioned my fears of the load being put on the public service by the rapid increase in the amount of financial legislation during the current year. Deputy Staunton's point about the functioning of committees here is worthy of the attention of the House, the Government and the permanent officers who are concerned, to see how we can do this efficiently and properly, to defeat, and not to increase, the consequences of what is known as Parkinson's Law.

Paradoxically it gets more complex and the problem of solving it gets more difficult just at a time when we are realising that we have to face this problem of organising the work of the House in a practical way.

Another point made by Deputy Staunton was in regard to Arab-European relations. I believe it is a mistake to approach such a problem on a narrow economic basis. In my view the Deputy is perfectly right to point out the cultural and the broader aspects he has mentioned. The statement referred to by Deputy Staunton reads:

Equally, our partners on the other side of the Mediterranean realise that to be the play-ground of the two super-powers can be fun for a while, can lead to dazzling results in terms of armaments but finally gives rise to disaster. Without a doubt on the other side of the Mediterranean the Arabs—and, in my view the Israelis—want to set up a permanent system not totally dependent on the good will or conflicts between Americans and Russians.

My only addition to that comment is that Europeans should be included as well as the Americans and Russians. I subscribe to Deputy Staunton's plea that the traditions, the culture, the aspirations, the human and other potential of these people should be adequately recognised and that we get away from the colonial background.

In that spirit Deputy Staunton declared his own personal association with Arab associations. I am not associated with either side but in this connection to balance it the same remarks should be applied equally to the Israelis. I join Deputy Staunton in his plea for the recognition of the culture and traditions of the Arab world and include the Israelis. The reason why I seized upon the sentence I have just quoted is that I believe the whole of the Middle East problem between the Arabs and the Israelis, from the beginning, had its roots to a large extent in colonialism and was bedevilled by that conflict of super power. It could have been, and should have been, susceptible to a solution with benefit to Jew and Arab if it had not been for the big fingers from outside in the pie. Basically, Deputy Staunton has raised a point of view that is important in approaching all the people outside the European tradition.

The Deputy made a comparison with us as far as the Arab struggle for recognition was concerned. I am not going to controvert that; I should like to supplement it. There is another analogy that strikes me. For 700 years the Irish were virtually driven from their land and were suppressed and part of their country was taken over. Eventually, we were fortunate enough to see the progress we have to date and not wishing to come on domestic ground in a sensitive area at present, I will leave it at that. One must remember that Palestine and the city of Jerusalem was the homeland of the Jews. In 2,000 years of dispersion and exile twice in their history—first by the Babylonians and then in the last 2,000 years—they maintained their integrity as a people, their culture and traditions and never abandoned their claim to their city. The terrible tragedy I see in the Middle East situation, with these chosen people against all odds back in their city, is that the state of affairs is the result of outside machinations and colonialism that Deputy Staunton spoke of.

I am talking from the point of view of the great desire to see the reconciliation of these semitic peoples. It is a terrible tragedy that the two derivitives from the Jewish culture, the Christian and the Arab—and we are both derived from that original culture —should have been through history put in the position of the hostility to the parent culture that has been developed. But it is all the more heartrending when one realises that the association between the Arab tradition and the Israeli tradition is really closer than the wider Christian tradition in that they are semetic people and, therefore, closer cousins, and the powers from outside and the colonial antecedents from the time of the Roman Empire down have been responsible for this. Although I do not think Deputy Staunton meant to do it he spoke all the time from the Arab point of view and I would like to balance it and to plead the case and the problems of the Israelis too, recognising the case and the problems of the Arabs, and joining finally with Deputy Staunton in saying this: Let us recognise the dignity of these peoples.

May I make one remark? When one speaks about Euro-Arab co-operation, there is practically an inference, and it is equated with an attitude, of antagonism to Israel. It is not that in any sense. When I spoke of Euro-Arab co-operation, the fact that I omitted to speak of Israel was not indicative of any attitude because it was not relevant to what I was saying. Too many people equate this Euro-Arab idea with an antagonism to Israel, whereas, while there is a Middle East conflict, the Middle East relates to a very small portion of the Arab world——

There is an Irish conflict too. I would like to put this in a friendly and unifying perspective rather than try to aggravate the problem, and I would hope for a proper solution there. What I am joining with the Deputy in is a proper recognition of other peoples, their cultures, their traditions and not reduce the thing, as the Deputy said, merely to £sd.

This is a question for a European approach. The Middle East situation is bound to have repercussions on things. I am afraid I would be straying away from the subject if I went any further. My first point is to commend Deputy Staunton for dealing with the broader aspects and the second is to point to the Israeli claim and the Israeli equity as well, and to pray that through belief in the one God who, through the Jews, was revealed to the world and accepted by Arab, Christian, Jew and all alike— this may sound emotional but it is very realistic—the integration of humanity can be achieved.

The Middle East became more than a political power or of academic interest to most Europeans through the physical reality of oil supply. This is the problem of energy, and it might be well to realise what the depth of this problem is for humanity. Up to very recent times it was tacitly assumed by the developed countries, the western technologists, that the sources of energy were unlimited and that what was involved was merely the cost of energy. Although statisticians, estimators, surveyors and thinking people will point out that the resources of coal are limited, that the resources of oil are limited, that there is an ultimate limit to the annual supply of energy to the planet, and that there is the question of how you can use the reserves of that energy which have been accumulated over millions of years in the planet, nevertheless, it was tacitly assumed that there was no problem and that energy considerations were determined by economics and the question of price and cost.

The demands for energy now have shown the fallacy in the long-term of that view. Energy is required for all activity, and energy is conserved. It is not made out of nothing and it cannot even be inflated like money. It is strictly conserved, and every human activity from walking to the running of a big factory or any business is consuming energy, and that energy is only what comes from the terrestrial resources available and such as is derived from the sun in a year.

These general remarks are a necessary preliminary to what I want to say about Europe's energy supply. Engineers, physicists and chemists realise from the very nature of the physical world and from their training the necessity for conservation. It is a fundamental concept for the scientist. However, this idea of physical conservation of energy had not made much impact on the economist and was remote from the politician or the ordinary man until our day. We must now take account of it.

Debate adjourned.
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