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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 10 Jun 1975

Vol. 281 No. 12

Adjournment Debate: - Veterinary Dispute.

I wish to thank you for affording me the opportunity of raising this very urgent public matter on the Adjournment. I should like to know at the outset why the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries is not here tonight. He is one of the people who has taken a particularly stubborn line on this and he should be here. He is one of the people who, during the past week, have consistently refused to meet members of the veterinary profession.

This strike is of fairly recent origin. It was because of the attitude with which the veterinary profession were treated by the Department officials and the Minister that the present situation has arisen. The Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries in a parliamentary reply to me two weeks ago, without any provocation used the word "irresponsible" in respect of a group that had already postponed their strike earlier in the year. Vincent Browne, in an article in The Irish Times of last Thursday week, took a small quotation from a statement made by the Minister and it reads as follows:

I chose this time for a strike.

It was, therefore, the Minister who in effect called the strike and gave reasons why a strike would have been better at this time. Surely with a shortage of grass at the moment and with the glut of cattle that will arise due to this strike, can we say at this stage who is responsible and who is irresponsible? The veterinary profession already put back their strike last February and only decided to go ahead with it when confronted by the Minister on 16th May and told:

"This is my decision. There will be no discussion; there will be no negotiations." That was said despite the promise made to give the veterinary profession four months' notice of such an intention. The Minister announced that publicly on 16th May and also in conversations with the President of the Veterinary Association.

What was the Minister's attitude some time ago to the veterinary profession? Speaking at a dinner of the IVA on 29th September, 1973, Mr. Clinton said that we depend on the veterinary practitioners, that he had faith in their ability to deliver the goods, that as long as they continue to do so he would offer them full involvement in State programmes for disease eradication over at least the next five years, that he would encourage them to make plans accordingly, that their State work and private practice could be serviced amicably and expeditiously.

Those are the people the Minister praised: he now calls them irresponsible. While the possibilities were there of the strike being averted, the Minister has ruled them out. It has now made some of the veterinary surgeons, who were very moderate and reasonable people, hard and bitter in this strike. No such language was used to any other worker. When the dockers in Dublin gave notice of strike this week, the Minister for Labour acted on Friday night, yet the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries has refused to accept the services of a mediator. This is stubbornness and pig-headedness at this stage. Although he denied it to me, the Minister already had been offered a mediator on the previous night. He has since been offered mediators and has refused. The Irish Veterinary Union are prepared to meet and talk with him but he refuses to act. The consequences of his action are that 2,000 people were laid off from employment last week. At the present moment we have reports from all over the country that up to 8,000 workers will be let go at the end of this week. The action to avert that type of lay-off which would add to the 103,000 people already unemployed a further 8,000 plus all the service jobs that will go with that, is now in the hands of the Minister, but he is refusing to do anything about it.

It is not a question of lay technicians being involved in this. The Department of Agriculture have tried to emphasise this point and have continually said that lay technicians could do the work, and I stress the words they used, better and cheaper. I will argue that later on, but at this stage I would like to explain the position in which the veterinary surgeon finds himself in a rural practice. First, he is not now being called generally by farmers except in cases of grave necessity and of extreme urgency. Most of the work he is doing is heavier, the handling type of work. The veterinary practitioner who wishes to earn a high income must be prepared to work by day or night, suffer many injuries in the course of his work and he must be always available in all kinds of weather. He has to bear the cost of his own transport, surgical implements and medical equipment. He spent five years going through a costly university course to get into that profession. If a veterinary surgeon becomes ill today, it is at his own expense. If he decides to take a holiday, that, too, is at his own expense. As he grows older he will lose the potential for earning in private practice and indeed will not be up to the mark for the competition with younger vets. Of course, his general practice is also affected by the trend we have here today, the reduction in the price of animals.

The Department have thrown all the muck that it was necessary to throw at the veterinary profession last week when they announced that £24,000 was made by one veterinary surgeon. I am sure every Member of this House, and every member of the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries in particular, including the Minister, knows that no veterinary surgeon was capable of earning £24,000 in one year. In fact, the man who was referred to has five assistants to whom he has to supply five cars, pay for petrol for the five cars, pay for secretaries and pay for his own administration costs. That was particularly irresponsible of the Department and, indeed, of the departmental officials who were involved in this. I believe that the Minister has been totally misled by his officials and, unfortunately, he has now put himself in a corner where he is left with very little room for manoeuvre.

Any blame must be attached to the Minister. Officials may not be blamed.

I am explaining how the Minister got the blame. If I may quote from the Irish Farming Independent of Saturday, 7th June:

Just how wise Mark Clinton was in taking the advice he was given and how well "informed" he was time alone will tell. But it now appears that the only way in which the present situation can be solved is through some form of "give and take" on both sides.

That give is on the veterinary union's side. It is not on the side of the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries and the Minister. It goes on to say further down in the article:

It appears that some very strong pressure is being used to influence the profession within the Department by the "Admin" men in the Service, who apparently feel that they know more about how the veterinary side of the Department's activities should be run than the members of the veterinary profession working within the Department.

The position was that the Minister guaranteed the factories that there would be no doubt whatsoever but that meat exports would continue. How well informed was he, or what sort of advice had he taken to remind him that no member of any trade union was going to be used as a blackleg in a strike situation? He was, in fact, asking veterinary colleagues, in the rural areas particularly, who would have to work with the vets who were on strike, to act as blacklegs in this situation——

Exactly.

——to call them scabs in such a situation and expect them, when the strike was over, to go back to work with them again. It was not doing the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries at local level any good. I am glad to say that the Veterinary Officers' Association did not succumb to that type of intimidation.

We have now a situation where the Minister, in reply to me, stated that their position would be considered under the Civil Service Regulations, 1956, which is in itself intimidation and a threat. Now we have the position that this strike can escalate totally, that the veterinary association have applied to the Irish Congress of Trade Unions for an all-out picket if any of them is dismissed. Again, I believe that there was some effort made to try to use the members of the Agricultural Officers' Association. I have read the reports in the papers and heard the newscasts on this matter and the statements made by their union or association that they would not take any part in that.

Now we have the position when it comes to the costings of these items. The Minister has continued to blame the vets for the lack of progress in the eradication scheme which was due to be completed by 1977. All the available advice is that it will be many more years after 1977 which, I understand, would be acceptable to the EEC provided that we were making a sincere effort. I think that effort is being made but it is not being made from the follow-up afterwards.

I do not deny that there are some veterinary surgeons who are not doing their jobs. There are some politicians in this House who are not doing their jobs. There are some Ministers in this House, many Ministers in fact, who are not doing their jobs at the present time. There are also people in every walk of life, including the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, who are not doing their jobs. There is a method by which the Department and the Minister can take action against those people. They may lose their right to practise as professional people should they continue on those lines but, in fact, we have had no proof at all from the Minister or the Department of this large-scale lack of concern by the veterinary association.

I have heard—in common with many other Deputies particularly on this side—that the veterinary union will discipline and will take very strong action against any member they find not fulfilling his full duties. I have found them most reasonable people to talk to and most reasonable in their concern. We have the position where the veterinary surgeons' incomes at the moment are reduced by 50 per cent. The costings by the Department have stated that it would be cheaper to employ lay technicians. Of course, we know the comparison they make as between England and Northern Ireland; so let us take an average of the Northern Ireland costs.

The non-veterinary personnel on average salary would earn £1,880 to £2,846, that is from 1st March, 1975 and not including the pay increase this year. The mileage rate would be, on average, in the region of £0.097 up to 4,000 miles, £0.047 over 4,000 miles and £0.129 up to 4,000 miles for 12 horse-power cars and so on. So, in fact, the calculation would roughly come down in average cases to a non-veterinary person's salary at £2,363. Travelling would be about £20 per week for 47 weeks, superannuation at the minimum rate of 8 per cent would be £185, subsistence allowance of 60p a day for 47 weeks would be £141, social welfare stamps from the employer would be £1.84 per week or £96 per annum, pay-related contribution from employers would be 2 per cent of the gross salary and would amount to £47 and protective clothing and laundry would be £40. That comes to a grand total of £3,812 per annum. That is not the full cost because they are not taking into account the training of these people and other items for instance, contact with brucellosis. If one of these people contracted brucellosis, who is liable for any illness that may occur and any pension that might arise out of it?

The veterinary supervision inspection of these people would be in the region of £810 on average per year, the veterinary service travel expenses would be £250 and the superannuation for a veterinary inspector would be £65. The total veterinary supervision of those people who would be involved in that situation would be £1,196 added to the cost, which makes a total of £5,008 for each individual. That does not include the cost of recruiting and training lay personnel and the increased administrative and staff costs which will be necessary should lay personnel be introduced.

It is an important matter for the farming community because at the moment they are getting a subsidised rate from the veterinary surgeons. If veterinary surgeons did not have the Department's fees, then the cost of calls to the farmer would be higher. If any of this work is withdrawn from members of the veterinary association we will have a fairly sizeable amount of emigration. Already I have evidence that some young vets in my own constituency are emigrating very shortly to Australia and Canada. If they go, it means that there will not be so many vets, the distances to be travelled will be longer, expenses will be higher and the farmers will have to pay higher fees. No farmer has ever been refused service from a vet. Often when he goes out to look at an animal, he does not charge the farmer providing he is doing testing in his house.

If this strike continues it will cause havoc, not only to our cattle trade, not only to our meat trade, the markets concerned and the contracts that have been drawn up, but there will be a loss of about £5 million to our export trade this week and next week. This is because of the stubborness of the Minister, because of the attitude he adopted last November and last January, and, above all, because of the insincerity when he promised he would look into their case and promised a formal notice of decision; but he refused to do that. He chose this time for a strike, on his own admission.

It is time that the Minister met the Veterinary Union, before there is a hardening of attitude and an escalation of the strike which might involve every official in the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries concerned in this matter.

It is peculiar, indeed, that we should have this kind of contribution from Deputy Davern at a time when we are honoured by a visit from the EEC Ministers. He asked why the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries is not present. The Minister is acting as host to his colleagues from the EEC today. He is accompanying them on visits to farmers to try to impress upon them the importance of agriculture to this country. The work is similar to the work being done by Deputy Mark Clinton, Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, since he took office two years ago.

In the time at our disposal, let us examine the position so far as this dispute is concerned. First of all, we have been endeavouring to eradicate bovine TB for some 20 years now and brucellosis since 1966. It is quite true to say that we have not made the headway we anticipated when we embarked on these schemes; it would not be in the interests of our agricultural industry to give statistics, but the unfortunate position is that we have not made sufficient headway and, during all these years, the veterinary officers had sole control of both schemes.

So far as salaries are concerned, the Minister has already given this information to the House and to the Seanad. Since we embarked on these schemes they have cost the Irish taxpayer £83.7 million up to the end of 1974. Of that £83.7 million, £28.7 million was paid to the veterinary profession. Were they or were they not paid reasonable fees? That is a matter for people, particularly the agricultural community, to determine. The Deputy blames the alleged stubborn line adopted by the Minister. The Minister did not adopt a stubborn line so far as this dispute is concerned, if one may use the expression. In actual fact, the Minister has gone out of his way to try to meet the demands of the veterinary profession, because he realises the importance of our cattle export trade, the importance of keeping our factories in production and the benefits that will accrue to both those engaged in agriculture and those working in these factories.

He suggested to the veterinary surgeons that we employ lay technicians to take blood samples. This is done in Northern Ireland and Britain with great effect in regard to the eradication of both these diseases. Lay technicians can do this job just as effectively and just as well as the veterinary profession. The Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons agree that a lay person can do this kind of work and, once this college agrees that it can be done effectively by lay personnel, I do not think there is need for any more argument. The Minister is obliged to eradicate disease to meet our commitments, particularly in so far as EEC membership is concerned, and he is also obliged as the representative of the Government and as the representative of the Irish people to eradicate them in the most effective and economic way possible. That is what the Minister is doing.

So far as the stubborn line is concerned, throughout these negotiations he offered, as I have already mentioned, to utilise lay technicians in the six north western counties only, the least seriously affected area in the country and to continue with the employment of vets in the other 20 counties until such time as they can be added to the free area.

Deputy Davern seems to think that there will be redundancies if the Minister implements this scheme. My information is that the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries advertised through the Civil Service Commissioners for veterinary officers and could not get an adequate number to meet its demands. This belies the statement about the necessity for veterinary surgeons to emigrate to Canada and Australia to obtain employment. The salary scale here is from £3,900 to £5,800 for veterinary inspectors employed by the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. This is quite a good scale. I think it is quite fair and reasonable.

I realise what is happening throughout the country and so does the Minister, but I place the blame for the situation squarely on the shoulders of the veterinary profession. I think they are stabbing the country in the back.

(Interruptions.)

At a time when we were getting our agricultural industry on its feet, particularly after the decline in prices, here come the veterinary profession demanding they take over functions which rightfully belong to the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries. The Minister is not prepared to hand over his powers to any group in this country. There was an obligation placed on him when he was appointed here in 1973 to utilise the powers conferred on him by virtue of that appointment and that he is doing. The veterinary profession are being treated fairly and squarely. So far as they are concerned there is no redundancy whatsoever and Deputy Davern should be making a case here about the difficulties of the agriculturalists and on behalf of factory workers who will lose their employment as a result of the irresponsibility of the veterinary profession.

I have no apologies to make for my statements. I believe the Minister adopted a very soft line throughout his negotiations with the profession, trying everything possible to obviate a stoppage of work. No group, no matter who they are, will be allowed to hold this country up to ransom.

(Interruptions.)

If they are allowed to do so our whole democracy is endangered. The veterinary profession are well paid; there is no question of redundancy. Over the past few years £28.7 million has been paid by way of fees to that profession; that does not take into account moneys earned by way of private fees. I do not like having to make this statement here. Fianna Fáil have brought the matter up and they seem to be very cheerful about the situation.

That is a scandalous statement.

Instead of backing us up, standing behind the farmers and the workers——

(Interruptions.)

Time is up.

The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 11th June, 1975.

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