Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 17 Jun 1975

Vol. 282 No. 4

Private Members' Business. - Wealth Tax Bill, 1975: Committee Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That section 2 stand part of the Bill."

(Dublin Central): Before we adjourned this debate I was discussing the merits of this wealth tax and its effects on business. I was endeavouring to find out the purpose behind this Bill: whether it is designed to embrace a large section of the community and what the return to the Exchequer will be. When we look at the valuation of agricultural land, we come to the one firm conclusion that this is designed to catch people who are in business on a large scale. It is designed specifically for that type of person. In terms of employment, there is no point in looking at a small farm of 40 acres or a small shopkeeper. Where will we absorb the 103,000 people unemployed? Will it be in the industrial areas or the construction industry? We must concentrate on this section of the community when we are considering this wealth tax.

According to a report previously published in this country there will be a reduction in the number of persons employed in agriculture. This is a tendency in every country in Europe, in America and in any other country you wish to mention. The general pattern of people employed in agriculture in the EEC countries is around 16 per cent of the working population. The number of people employed in this country averaged, in the last statistics taken, at 25 per cent. I am informed that this trend will develop in this country also; there will be a diversion from the direct engagement on the land probably to manufacturing of the by-products of agriculture. These workers must be absorbed in factories, in construction work and in the services, unless we are to have 200,000 people unemployed. I believe that this package is not taking into consideration the profitability of a company at all.

The White Paper and the Bill do take into consideration that all businesses do not give the same results. They have conceded that in the Bill by valuing agricultural land at 60 per cent. I believe the thinking behind it was that the return on capital investment in agriculture would not give the same return as in industry and in business. Of course the same principle applies in business: every business varies in its profitability. Some businesses, probably with high automation and the techniques they employ, have a very low labour content and very high profits. That is not the type of an industry we would want here. We would want industries with a high labour content and quite often manufacturing industry with a high labour content has not the same return in capital. We have only to see the various companies in the weaker sector of our industrial arm that have closed down recently. That was due to low profitability.

There is no provision in this Bill to vary the one per cent in relation to the different types of profits : it is right across the board irrespective of whether you have a high return on capital or not. I believe basically that this is wrong, that some steps should be taken to look at the profitability of the company and see that there is a variation as regards the rate of wealth tax.

We know that in countries like Germany they allow the wealth tax against income tax, but there is no such provision here. They allow a portion of it. It is quite obvious that we are aiming here—perhaps from an administrative point of view it is more acceptable—at uniformity but certainly from a business point of view anyone seeing the returns of companies in the Independent, Times or any national paper any morning can see the drastic downturn in the profitability of companies. This downturn in profits is bound to have an effect on the companies. We all know that when a company are doing well everyone within that company, the employees and everyone involved in it, also do well. By and large you will find that in any business or any company once the profits are right the directors of that company will plough back profit into the company: they will give better conditions to their employees; they will up-grade the type of factory they have and this gives confidence. This is what confidence is all about.

If you have 40 or 50 employees in a factory or in any type of business and they see that the company is ploughing money back, they know perfectly well that their jobs are secure. They know that the directors or the board have every intention of staying in business and expanding the business. This can only happen when there are sufficient profits in the company.

On the other hand, if you see a company being run down gradually and profits are bad you will find that the workers themselves are losing confidence. They are worried about their jobs. Even the trade unions, in my opinion, have quite often overlooked one of the most important factors in employment: I do not think that shorter working hours or wages are the vitally important factors where employees are concerned. The first and most important factor for any employee is security of job life—will it continue, will he have pension rights? That is the first basic requirement of any employee—continuity of employment and pension rights. After that, he can talk about shorter working hours and increases in salary. But, there is no good in continuing as we are at the moment with employees getting 25 per cent and inflation running at a corresponding figure and the factory being undermined. It does not make any difference what you give an employee if this position continues because he will find that he has no guarantee that his job is going to continue. We should be aiming at building up confidence in the industrial sector, building up confidence in the trade unions and the employees. You will not do it by going to Brussels or to the Arab countries for a loan and bringing back £80,000,000.

Or to Luxembourg.

(Dublin Central): You may bring it back but I can tell you here and now you will probably be channelling it into local authorities and hospitals and schools and housing. That will get people off the dole, I agree, but you will not channel it into industry. I know at the moment there is no shortage of money in the Associated Banks in this country, but there is a shortage of suitable clients to lend money to. There are people who are not credit-worthy, but I know from some banking circles that if credit-worthy projects in the industrial sector were put up to the Associated Banks, they would have money to give them. But, people are not approaching the banks. I am sure the Minister for Finance knows this perfectly well—that this money is there but it is not possible to get suitable clients to whom to give this money to invest in the industrial sector.

I think the Deputy is straying a bit far from section 2.

(Dublin Central): I do not want to go over the whole field of our economy, but unfortunately this wealth tax will affect everyone and this is one thing we must make perfectly clear. The people it will not affect are the people that this Bill is directed at; I do not think it will affect them at all. It certainly will have a detrimental effect on the work force as regards the transfusion of money and the building up of confidence. This is what you must aim for at this time. You can bring the money back, put the solutions to the House as regards taxation, if you wish to get money, but that will do nothing: you will never build up confidence quickly; it is a slow process and once it is down it is very, very difficult to build it up.

I have seen businesses go down in this country through the years. I have seen them go down through bad management; I have seen them go down by bad policies on the part of the management, of the owners; but as everyone in this House knows, it is impossible to build it up again. It takes years to build up confidence. This is something that you do not try overnight—get an injection of capital and everything will be all right. Of course this is not true, and this is not going to happen now.

I think that as a gesture to restoring that confidence this is one Bill that should be put into cold storage until such time as our industrial arm starts to generate and expand again. This can be done if the proper remedies are applied at this time, but if we go through with this type of taxation, I believe it will not.

Deputy Crinion was speaking when the Minister replied to him earlier as regards the taxation of trading companies. I know that trading companies are not taxed as such; we all know that the shareholders are taxed. We also know that if you are domiciled, a resident, in this country your wealth abroad is taxed, but certainly I did not know until a few days ago that an American company owning shares in this country is not taxed on its business here. I do not have to stretch my imagination too far in relation to any given factories throughout this country, one fully owned by Irish shareholders, another owned by an American company——

(Cavan): Neither of them will be taxed.

(Dublin Central): One, a company owned by Irish shareholders, one held by American shareholders.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy must not refer to companies which could be identified.

(Dublin Central): I am not mentioning them and I do not intend to mention companies. It is only a company as such. My interpretation of the Bill from the Minister is that Irish shareholders owning companies in this country and investing in business are subject to wealth tax to shareholders. American shareholders with business in this country are not taxed on wealth. Is that right?

(Cavan): I said an American trading company, owning shares in an Irish trading company, is not liable to wealth tax. Neither is an Irish trading company owning shares in an Irish trading company liable to wealth tax. I quite understand none of the Deputies opposite appreciated this. They just did not understand the Bill.

(Dublin Central): An Irish trading company?

(Cavan): Owning shares in an Irish trading company is not liable to tax.

(Dublin Central): Who is taxed? Is it the Irish company shareholders?

(Cavan): The ultimate shareholders.

That is a subtle difference.

(Dublin Central): We will get that clarified on Committee Stage.

(Cavan): I agree 100 per cent with Deputy Fitzpatrick, but if we can get on to the relevant sections, we can have a constructive intelligent argument at the appropriate time.

(Dublin Central): We certainly will, probably on the next section.

We will have the Budget next week.

(Dublin Central): When the White Paper was issued, its purpose was the distribution of wealth. I believe this was the whole purpose of the White Paper, the distribution of wealth, that the wealth of the country was concentrated in a small number of people. This Bill, the Capital Gains Tax Bill and the Wealth Tax, would distribute the wealth of the country. This is complete nonsense; it will not distribute any wealth. It could not distribute wealth because it is only to replace death duties.

The last figures we have for death duties are exactly £13 million. If one is to distribute the wealth of the country, the figures available for 1972-73 are £13 million. This is not true. There is to be no distribution of wealth in this. It certainly will affect industry and the expansion and the creation of wealth which is far more important.

Instead of taxing wealth, in my opinion we should give incentives to people to work well, a different approach. To tax wealth, to get the movement of wealth into a productive company, that is the thinking behind it. If the Minister took a more positive approach, gave concessions and encouragement to get wealth moving and into production, it would be a better approach. I am convinced that taxation is not the solution to expansion. Ask any wage-earner today. See the return you will get if you give them overtime or give them a bonus of so much a week. You will find a difference immediately in output in that factory.

We should adopt a different approach to try to get it operating and get greater production from it. Wealth within the State is the means by which we will generate employment. A negative approach such as this, will make no contribution at all to encouraging these people. Wealth should be taxed in three ways, I think. It should be taxed when you acquire it, capital acquisition.

(Cavan): Which you did not do when in power.

(Dublin Central): Wealth should be taxed when you work it, by income tax, corporation profits tax and surtax. Wealth should be taxed when you sell it, by capital gains tax. Those are the three ways wealth should be taxed. Those are the three constructive ways of taxing the wealth of the nation, when you acquire it by capital acquisition, when you work it, as it is worked by normal business people —you get income tax and corporation profits tax—and when you sell it is a capital gain. That is the most positive way, I believe, to tax wealth. Taxing wealth in this way, wealth which is generating employment, must be a negative approach.

The progressive countries of Europe have no wealth tax. As I have mentioned France, Italy, Belgium and the United Kingdom have no wealth tax. Those are countries that have wealth invested in them over the past 100 years. Money has poured into the United Kingdom for the past 200 years from the colonies. A number of European countries have mineral wealth developed for 50 or 100 years and they have not opted for a wealth tax. There is no wealth tax in Australia, Japan or America. These are countries that would be looking to this country to invest their capital especially America and Japan, who would be looking to Ireland as a jumping off ground to export into the Common Market. They have not opted for a wealth tax. Why should we opt for this sophisticated type of taxation at this early stage, especially when I believe this country still has a future in the Common Market in our industrial sector? We have done well over the past two or three years in our exports. We should do nothing that would interfere in any way with the lifeblood of this country which is our export trade. If we interfere with that in any way our country will be much poorer in the long run.

Like all the other capital taxation Bills there is no provision to deal with inflation written into the Bill at all. There will be a review every three years but there is no guideline laid down with regard to how this is going to be adjusted. We do not know whether it will be adjusted by 25 per cent, 20 per cent or what it will be adjusted by. With the present rate of inflation, if there is no adjustment in a short period, one can see the effect that will have on any property worth £80,000 or £100,000 today. The same principle, of course, was applied in capital gains and indeed in this Bill also. It is important and the majority of business people are concerned about it.

Anyone I have spoken to recently was very concerned about the fact that there is no provision at all in regard to inflation. If inflation continues as we have it today if you are in the £40,000 area that would nearly bring you into the wealth tax area if adjustment is not made in a very short time. It was unfortunate, indeed, that the Government should have embarked on this road but they have had plenty of time to draw back, especially in regard to this wealth tax. They could see the way the economy was going and that last year's inflation was practically 18 per cent. All the economists predicted that this year inflation would run at 25 per cent. Whatever means the Government resort to next Thursday to try to combat inflation it must be the sole purpose of the exercise. If you do not tackle inflation you certainly cannot tackle the unemployment problem because it will eat up the whole economy of the country. It is doing that today. We all know what inflation is doing. The average wage earner has no sooner got increases than they are eroded with inflation. It is the same in business and every sector of our community. Business people today could not keep an adjustment in regard to labour costs because there is an adjustment now every three months. This has to be with inflation. You could not run a business today trying to adjust unit costs every three months. But we would go along with that if we thought the Bill had any great significance from a financial point of view. But it has none. The Minister and various spokesmen have pointed out that their estimates are £4 million or £5 million. But consider the cost of administrating this wealth tax. In 1972-73 there was £13,227,000 collected from death duties and that cost £286,000 to collect. Under this tax valuations will have to be submitted to the Revenue Commissioners and how they can possibly cope with them or get qualified staff to deal with the valuations I do not know. Remember the first payment is due in a few months' time.

I do not know anyone here who could carry out a valuation on his own property the way inflation is going. What about a man who owns his property for the past 40 years. He will find it very difficult to get a valuation. Is he to call in a valuer and pay him? Will the Revenue Commissioners pay for all valuations that start? If the person brings in an auctioneer or a valuer let the State pay. I know a lot of business people but I do not think they would be competent to value market value today. I certainly would not be, especially in regard to a property that has been held for the past 40 to 50 years. These are all complications that will arise when this Bill goes through.

I have seen predictions that the cost of administering this Bill will be £1½ million or £2 million. There are going to be terrible problems in regard to valuation. Who is going to carry them out I do not know. What guideline will be laid down? How many years purchase? At the moment they say it is only going to bring in the same amount of revenue as death duties and death duties were £13 million and cost £286,000 to collect. If anyone in this House were to tell me that the operation of the capital gains tax and the capital acquisitions tax, which are only supposed to bring in £13 million, can be operated for £286,000, I would not believe him. Nobody knows.

I do not believe the Revenue Commissioners could at this time give any indication of what additional staff they will need to operate these Bills. I always had a basic principle in business—when you are opening a business have your staff there first and then create the business. At least have an idea of what you require. We are throwing these three Bills to the Revenue Commissioners who are completely overworked at the moment. We know they are overworked. Look at the volume of business they have to operate in comparison with five or six years ago. Go back to ten years ago to consider the position.

If you start with PAYE and all the other type of taxations, including VAT, and the different complicated type of taxations we have since, you will find that the Revenue Commissioners are overworked. Now we are sending them three of the most complicated Bills that have ever gone through this House. There is not any doubt about that. Anyone who sat in on the discussions on capital gains will know how complicated it is. Certainly this wealth tax, as regards valuation, is going to create terrible problems. If a man undervalues his property will the Revenue Commissioners look for accounts to assess valuations? I believe that profitability is not one of the features of it, but nobody knows exactly what this valuation will be. Do a lot of people realise they are paying wealth tax at the moment? Some people think it is going through the Dáil at this time but wealth tax has been in operation for the past few months; it has been payable over the last few months. Many companies that have certain costings, costings as regards fuel, light, heat, wages, rates and various other things, will have to cost all those. I know the Minister will say companies are not taxed but——

(Cavan): Come down to earth.

(Dublin Central):——shareholders do not give their money away for nothing. They will seek somewhere else to put it into. If proper apportions are made as regards profits——

A Deputy

Explain how the company would exist without the shareholders?

(Dublin Central): We could continue talking all night about the effects this will have on the economy, about the effects it is having at the moment. The number of inquiries to the IDA has never been at such a low ebb. If there is not continuous development—a factory does not start overnight; it takes two years from the time inquiries are made for it to commence production—the effect on the economy will be disastrous and the country will pay for that in about three years' time. We will see the effects of this wealth tax on employment in two or three years' time. America, Japan or the United Kingdom will send their research experts to see what labour relations are like, what the political set-up is and what fiscal arrangements can be made and these research experts will find that the fiscal arrangements have changed drastically.

The Minister has already told the House these investors will not be taxed; they will receive special concessions. Even so, taxation can have a deterimental effect. The country has attracted investors over the past 20 or 30 years because our industrial development was expanding. We should continue now to encourage investment and taxing wealth is not the way in which to get full production from the wealth of the country. There is a certain amount of dormant wealth in the country. Perhaps it would be better if a different approach were taken and people were encouraged to use the wealth in a productive manner.

Our sentiments are the same as those expressed by other speakers. If we thought this measure would create new jobs or reduce inflation in any way we would not oppose it. We know, however, that it has undermined confidence and stopped the inflow of capital. It has been a major factor in the lack of industrial expansion. These factors, combined with others, have helped to create the chaos in which we now find ourselves, with 103,000 unemployed.

I listened here this evening to the Minister giving the House a lecture on why he thought we should not speak against this proposal. He implied that we were being forced. I want to say to the Minister that nobody is forced to speak on any Bill. Anybody who reckons he has an adequate amount of common sense left is making an effort here to point out to the Minister and the Government the lack of leadership the country is experiencing on the economic front.

The Wealth Tax Bill was introduced for one reason only: it first saw the light of day as part of an overall taxation package designed allegedly to do great things for the country. I would describe that particular document as the milestone in the downturn of the economy. The consequences of the introduction of that package have been catastrophic for the people. I know the Minister has no part in this legislation; he knows he is being pushed into a situation by a group of people who consider this measure popular. It will sound good on the media; it is a tax on wealth. It is a tax to redistribute wealth. The Minister knows as well as I do the effect this Bill is having is not to redistribute wealth but to create poverty; it is throwing out of employment people who were working securely a little over two years ago. This is why Fianna Fáil are opposed to this Bill. I am not opposed to it because it will have any personal effect on me—far from it. I am opposed to it because of the disastrous consequences emanating from it.

I compliment Deputy Tom Fitzpatrick—that is the sensible Deputy Fitzpatrick of course—on his excellent contribution to the debate, one worth listening to and, despite what the Minister said this afternoon, if more attention were paid by those in Government to contributions such as Deputy Fitzpatrick's our economy might not be in its present condition. It might not need the package it is being promised for Thursday week, the package which should have been delivered many months ago. With the package, of course, there will be a budget.

This particular legislation sounds popular. It could be regarded as some kind of socialistic ideology. I do not know what that means; neither am I greatly concerned nor are the people concerned. What the people are concerned about is how much money they will be able to take home, how much they will have at the end of the week, how secure are their jobs. They are concerned to know how many jobs will be created for their sons and daughters. The lack of leadership and the mismanagement have caused the confidence of the people to sink to depths unknown since the middle 'Fifties. It is not because something is popular that it should be adopted by a Government. A Government should only introduce a measure if they believe it is for the good of the community. A Government has another responsibility. Not only do we not have a combined and united Government but we have a Government completely lacking in unity. A Government is also charged with the responsibility that when introducing a measure, they time its introduction so that it would give greatest benefit to the Exchequer and also to the economy.

If we look at the Exchequer side, we are given an estimate of what it might realise. At this stage I am not sure to what the estimate we have been given refers. Does it refer to the modified Bill that was introduced or to the modified Bill with all the amendments? I do not think any Minister or even the Minister for Finance knows. Nobody knows. That is why I say it is all bluff, propaganda, and is of no economic benefit to our people.

We have 102,500 people unemployed at the present time. In this month, we have 35,000 school-leavers who will be coming on the employment market. That will bring our unemployment figure at the end of June somewhere in the region of 140,000 people. What should the Government be doing, instead of playing around with this legislation which does no good for anybody? They should be looking at the priority problems facing them. Because of the disastrous management of the present regime, the oil and gas off our shores are looked on by these people as the life-buoy to save our economy. If the present Ministers are not prepared to face up to their responsibilities, let them resign before they bring the economy to disaster.

The Minister has been critical of this side of the House, just as his colleagues have been for almost two-and-a-half years now. It will be interesting to note how many of the suggestions proposed by us, by our leader and by Deputy Colley, will be included in next week's package. These suggestions were not made yesterday but at a time when they could have been implemented with far greater benefit for our people and our country. This is a miserable performance by a Government. It compares with what happened in the past. Fine Gael leadership in the past laughed and scoffed at there being any hope of industrial development within our community. When I talk about industrial development I am not concerned about creating wealth for the industrialists. I am concerned about providing jobs and making sure that our people get good employment, plenty of employment and plenty of opportunity within our own community. The lack of confidence at the moment has to be seen to be believed. It is going through every constituency in the country.

There are a few people preaching about the popular measures to redistribute wealth. I would love to see wealth redistributed, I am in favour of it, if there is such a thing as idle wealth. I believe that there is. The type of wealth I do not want to see redistributed is the type being used for the good of our people in this economy. If this wealth tax legislation is the cause of losing jobs, then this Government are making a bad mistake. They are setting us back decades. Not years but decades.

The Minister may say that he has heard all this before but it cannot be repeated often enough. I am a socialist. I believe in the right of everybody to equal opportunity. If one of our people suceeds better than another person, then more luck to him. If by succeeding he is able in return to employ those of us who have not done quite so well, or who will be able to give employment to our children, then we should look at his situation and see is he, as a shareholder in a company, in a position to pay assets without consequential disastrous results on the company giving the employment? If he is, by all means impose taxation, but if he is not let us, as a State, assist him.

Industrially, we could be regarded as a very young nation. This country owes much to the foresight of people like Eamon de Valera, Seán Lemass and our present leader Jack Lynch, men who realised the importance of creating opportunity, providing industry, getting people to invest their money and their wealth for the benefit of the people. Most of our industries are very young. We are probably from a nation's point of view, less developed industrially than most other European countries. This is understandable because of our history. Only a few of our industries date back any considerable time. The textile industry, in particular, is in ruins because of inaction by the present Government. This industry gave high employment in many rural areas. It had a peculiar structure because most of our textile mills were built around little towns and villages. They became the life blood of those areas.

In my opinion, nobody in the Government has made an adequate case to impose the necessary restrictions to stop the cheap cost imports that have, together with all these measures——

Acting Chairman

The Deputy is wrong.

I anticipated that I would be told that. I believe this to be relevant, despite what Members on the other side of the House may think, that the industrial development of our country is affected by section 2 of this Bill, and I defy anybody to say otherwise. I was referring to the textile industry which is affected in a number of ways. Here are people, many of them with family involvements, whose confidence will be undermined by the introduction of this legislation as part of a package. Textiles, in particular, have dropped in employment content considerably. The number of redundancies in the textile industry in recent times is very significant. For example, in my own constituency two textile firms are closing down next month. It is disastrous that in places like Douglas and Blarney, whose economic life is dependent on the textile industry, mills which have been established for the past couple of hundred years are closing down. I refer to the textile industry because it is one of the few old ones we have left. Generally our industry is much newer than that and dates back only ten, 20, 30 or 40 years. That is a very short life.

We can look at our building and construction industry which developed so much in the late 1950s and from then on right up to 1973. It has hit a pretty bad spell. There is no confidence there. It is also in decline at present. Suppliers and providers are feeling the pinch. This must be of grave concern to the people involved. I am mainly concerned with the number of people in good employment, employment that generated better earning capacity and earning power than any other industry for a decade or more.

I am afraid this legislation will cause greater job losses. We have an estimated 140,000 unemployed. If we add the school-leavers, what can we anticipate that figure will be in October or November of this year? I do not want to be gloomy. I would love to be more optimistic but I cannot. Through lack of decision this government have allowed this situation to develop. They have allowed it to develop because they even began to believe themselves that it arose because of outside influences and that some miracle would happen and they would be liberated and they would be back to the good days when Fianna Fáil were in office.

Now at last they have begun to realise that things will not improve unless effective measures are taken. Because of inflationary trends, because of inflationary measures taken, despite the cautions and warnings given by the Opposition, the situation was allowed to deteriorate. We have been promised this package next week. I hope the approach of the Government will be a realistic one. I hope they will endeavour to regenerate some confidence in our economy so that jobs will be created.

Acting Chairman

That does not arise on this section.

Perhaps not. I hope it will stimulate employment. I am not convinced that the income from this taxation will be big enough to justify its introduction and do no harm to the economy. There might be a time when this could be done. I do not think this is the time when such a measure should be introduced.

I was interested to hear the Minister for Industry and Commerce talk about a mixed economy. At least he is one convert to our beliefs.

The mixed economy he speaks about now is something we have always believed in. Only yesterday he pointed out to us the necessity for using capital from other sources to achieve the best we could hope for as a nation, in other words, to utilise that capital to the maximum national benefit. This is the way I would look on the utilisation of capital in industry. Whether we play on words about the assets of shareholders and the assets of a company, this charge is payable whether or not profit is being made. We already have the staggering figure of about 127 companies gone into liquidation in the first part of this year.

I want to re-emphasise that my primary interest here is not in those companies but in the people who are employed in them and who are now on social welfare payments. If these measures undermine the confidence of the people who help to keep the wheels of industry rolling then it is bad management by the Government and bad timing in its introduction. I call for Government assistance for some of the ailing industries. The textile industry badly needs help. I am concerned about the plight of the people who are seeking employment and particularly at the lack of opportunities being created for our young people. This is and always will be my prime concern.

I had something to say about this section last week. I was reminded by the Minister for Lands that on Committee Stage one could speak as often as one wished.

Always to the section.

I would like to repeat what I stated on the first occasion. A fair and equitable tax system is something that every Member of the House would support. Confusion has been created by the statements of various Ministers who do not seem to be at one on what this Bill really means. The Minister for Lands has one interpretation, the Minister for Finance another and the Minister for Defence still another interpretation. I have stated these various interpretations. I think the Minister for Defence was the first to say it was civil service jargon and that people need not be disturbed and need not be afraid. It is very important that when a Bill is presented to the House we understand exactly what it means and that there should be a collective view within the Government on the issue before the House. The Minister can well understand the great difficulties there are when a Bill is not presented to the House by a united Government, by Ministers who are at one in their interpretation of the legislation before the House, and when, as I have stated, various Ministers have given a variety of interpretations.

The term "wealth tax" may well appeal to a certain section but this is just a tag on the Bill. As the song says: "It is not the label on the pot of jam that counts; it is the tasty little bit inside." So we have to examine the Bill on a much broader basis, if the tag is meant to convince people that a genuine effort is being made when in fact there is nothing in it. When one reads the debate that took place last Thursday, one must see the difference in the interpretation of what this Bill really means. We have heard about the package that will be presented in the future. Is that package as a result of this Bill. Will it be assisted by the Bill? One wonders now who is the father of this package, because it is a package that had a two-year pregnancy and taking that period into account we must expect to have a bouncing little baby here next Thursday week. But we would like to know——

We are dealing with section 2 of the Bill.

That is quite true. I wonder if this Bill would have any effect on this package if the finances that will be collected will percolate back to the Exchequer and——

The Deputy must remember it is only the section we are dealing with.

(Cavan): I want to intervene at this stage. We have been discussing this measure now, this particular section for 17 hours The principle of the tax has already been established on the Second Stage of this Bill. We are now in Committee Stage but we have done absolutely no committee work for 17 hours. I consider that the time of the House is being grossly wasted and I propose that the question be now put. I am proposing that the question: “That section 2 stand part of the Bill” be now put.

Of course, the Minister appreciates that is only appropriate when the Ceann Comhairle is in the chair.

(Cavan): I understand the procedure is that when the Ceann Comhairle is not in the Chair, that the Ceann Comhairle is communicated with.

I understand we have a half-hour; is that right?

The Deputy will keep to the section and discuss the section, line by line. That is what we are dealing with in Committee. We may not ramble away from the section. We are only dealing with section 2 and the Deputy must keep strictly to that.

Section 2 is the charge of wealth tax and this percolates right through to each and every industry and one can well realise the difficulties under which speakers labour when arguments are vaguely presented. The Minister presented arguments here last week in a vague sort of way and I suppose I will be permitted to comment upon the references made in the course of the last week by the Minister. I was dealing with those vague statements when I reported progress on a previous occasion. Vague statements, just as this one about 15 or 17 hours have been made. Since when is legislation measured in minutes? Surely the airing of the problems and the views of the Members of this House are too important to allow any particular section or any piece of legislation to be limited by a time factor. Far too often this House has been forced——

The Deputy should keep to the section.

——to terminate discussion and to agree to legislation not adequately discussed by the House. More shame on the Government who permit this type of development. Possibly in the course of the next week or so we will see legislation that will not be discussed here being passed without comment because of the present situation. Notwithstanding the fact that many people would like to discuss in great depth and detail some of the very important problems——

We can only deal with section 2.

If we are to measure a section in terms of hours and minutes then I am afraid the legislation that will be put through this House in the future will not get the time it deserves if the Government consider that the Opposition are making a good case. The people will decide at a later stage whether the case made by the Government or by the Opposition is valid. Taking everything into consideration that we have heard from the Minister, and other Members who have backed him up—few as they are—we are utterly confused by the entire Bill, notwithstanding that section 2 is possibly the most important section in it.

The Minister's reference now to the 17 hours really has no bearing on section 2. The Minister on the last occasion gave us a geography lesson when he named a variety of countries that had a wealth tax, for what reason I was unable to ascertain. I did read the statement made by the Minister; unfortunately, it is not yet in booklet form; it is well worth purchasing as an example of a meaningless statement just like some of the statistics that have been presented here today and on previous occasions. I do not know what the Minister meant to imply when he referred to the nations that had a wealth tax, whether he meant to imply that they are superior in some way, that the wealth tax was the end of all their problems or whether the wealth tax was a solution to the grave crisis that confronts us at the moment and to our unemployment situation, I pointed out previously that the first country mentioned, Denmark, had a very substantial increase in unemployment and, in fact, had the worst record in Europe in relation to unemployment. They had wealth tax from about 1910 and the percentage increase in unemployment between 1974 and 1975 was 236 per cent, the highest in Europe, if not the highest in the world. Another nation had 88 per cent of an increase between 1974 and 1975, Germany, one of the countries quoted by the Minister. Indeed there were other quotations given. One wonders how valid the arguments are that have been put forward by the Minister and by the other speakers here.

Again I would like to ask the Minister if, when he states that a country has wealth tax legislation, is it identical to ours? There is no response from the Minister but it is only on the basis of like for like that we can examine the situation in relation to wealth tax. Apart from the wealth tax, there is a variety of other taxes in operation in this country. One wonders if the Minister took into consideration the number and types of taxes that are applied here as against the number and types of taxes applied in other countries before presenting statistics which were meaningless, as meaningless as the presentation here today of some of the other statistics.

What we really want is the creation of confidence in this country, an air of confidence so that we can put the people back to work. If we get the people back to work, there will be much more revenue for the Exchequer, if that is what they require, because people will have a greater spending capacity. We hear so much about the secret plan and the pregnant packages that are to be presented. One wonders what is in the packages.

The Deputy has already been asked to keep to the section and not to be anticipating.

You can sit down; you have got a house full again.

I am only starting now. I would like to say that in the present mess the nation is in, every effort will be made to bring in every type of legislation. Every panic situation that develops here necessitates some form of legislation, to damp down, as I said last week, when at the Parliamentary Labour Party meeting at which the Minister for Industry and Commerce called the members of the Parliamentary Labour Party——

Would the Deputy keep to section 2?

——to damp down the fires. The facts of the situation are that we can see throughout the country at the moment no air of confidence. This is something that must be created by legislation, confidence in the nation's future and in the future of the people. As against that, we have long and never-ending dole queues——

The Deputy must keep to the section before the House, the wealth tax.

——and people on short time, with the Minister for Finance dealing with the pawnbrokers of the world in order to try——

If the Deputy will not obey the direction of the Chair, the Chair will have to take some step about it and the Deputy knows that.

As I stated before, section 2 percolates right through to every industry and every problem; if it is a question of wealth or a question of taxation, the collecting of taxes percolates right through and the application of the taxes from time to time afterwards is all too important. We know that the building industry needs an injection, notwithstanding the fact that the Minister has indicated there is plenty of money and plenty of houses.

In the first three months of this year, 127 factories closed down and another 50 are about to close.

The Chair has already told the Deputy that he must keep to section 2.

The air of confidence that it is necessary to generate and that will be necessary to generate to start up these factories is one that we are not getting from the Government. Deputy Belton's contribution was of no great benefit.

I kept to the section.

Out of the thousands of people they are wondering who is next.

If the Bill is passed——

If this section was endorsed in this House, would all the misery the people of the nation are suffering at the moment be relieved and to what degree would it be relieved? Results from the vast unemployment we see here——

Because of the wealth tax.

I have already told the House that any equitable tax system should be one worthy of support. Deputy Fitzpatrick, and indeed Deputy Fitzgerald, have dealt at great length with many matters prior to the Minister's calling for the guillotine. I hope that the viewpoint of Deputy Fitzpatrick and indeed the other spokesmen will ensure that when the time comes that the people will know that there are people who will inspire confidence and bring about a situation to reduce the length of the dole queues and terminate the human suffering and misery that is being inflicted on so many people at the moment. Many of these industries have been abused; industrialists have been abused. This is nothing new to the Government or the Coalition Government that went before them. They left behind a trail of disaster, a trail of national and industrial sabotage just as they are leaving on this occasion. We are told they have a secret weapon, a package fathered by whom I do not know, as a result of this two-year pregnancy we have heard about here. It should be a big one. We will see it on Thursday week. We hope it will in some way reduce the suffering and——

(Cavan): Under Standing Order No. 55, I move that the question be now put. We have been discussing section 2 of this Bill for over 17 hours. This is the section which imposes the wealth tax but the principle of enforcing the wealth tax was established here on 12th March when the Second Reading of the Bill was passed. This is the Committee Stage of the Bill and I respectfully submit that no Committee Stage work has been done in the past 17½ hours. I think that in the interest of the House and the business of the House the debate on this section should be now brought to a close.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

On a point of order, Deputy Lynch.

This is the first time——

You are back?

Deputy Lynch without interruption.

It is usual in the case of a motion that a question be now put that the first time it is raised with the Ceann Comhairle he declines to put the motion. This is the first time that the question has been raised with you, Sir, and I take it now that you are departing from precedence and accepting the motion.

The Chair deems that the section has been adequately debated after 18 hours.

Question put: "That the section be now put."
The Committee divided: Tá 55; Níl, 51.

  • Barry, Richard.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Belton, Paddy.
  • Bermingham, Joseph.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Burke, Dick.
  • Burke, Joan T.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlan, John F.
  • Cooney, Patrick M.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Cruise-O'Brien, Conor.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Enright, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, John G.
  • Finn, Martin.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Cavan).
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Patrick.
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Keating, Justin.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • Lynch, Gerard.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • McMahon, Larry.
  • Malone, Patrick.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Sullivan, John L.
  • Pattison, Seamus.
  • Staunton, Myles.
  • Taylor, Frank.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Toal, Brendan.
  • Tully, James.
  • White, James.

Níl

  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Brosnan, Seán.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Brugha, Ruairí.
  • Callanan, John.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Connolly, Gerard.
  • Crowley, Flor.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dowling, Joe.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Farrell, Joseph.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin Central).
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • French, Seán.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Murphy, Ciarán.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond.
  • Power, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kelly and B. Desmond; Níl, Deputies Lalor and Browne.
Question declared carried.
Question put: "That section 2 stand part of the Bill."
The Committee divided: Tá, 53; Níl, 51.

  • Barry, Richard.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Belton, Paddy.
  • Bermingham, Joseph.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Burke, Dick.
  • Burke, Joan T.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlan, John F.
  • Cooney, Patrick M.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Enright, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, John G.
  • Finn, Martin.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Cavan).
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Patrick.
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Keating, Justin.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • Lynch, Gerard.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • McMahon, Larry.
  • Malone, Patrick.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Sullivan, John L.
  • Pattison, Seamus.
  • Staunton, Myles.
  • Taylor, Frank.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Toal, Brendan.
  • Tully, James.
  • White, James.

Níl

  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Brosnan, Seán.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Brugha, Ruairí.
  • Callanan, John.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Connolly, Gerard.
  • Crowley, Flor.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dowling, Joe.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Farrell, Joseph.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin Central).
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • French, Seán.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Murphy, Ciarán.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond.
  • Power, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kelly and B. Desmond; Níl, Deputies Lalor and Browne.
Question declared carried.

Have the Government any intention of keeping pairing arrangements in future? We have a voter on the List who was paired.

(Interruptions.)

I want to put it on the record that the Ministers for Finance, Foreign Affairs, Transport and Power and Agriculture and Fisheries who were paired by the Opposition Whip this morning and yesterday were absent from this Vote but their pairing was not honoured.

It was honoured.

The five EEC Deputies who were absent, were paired by the consent of the Opposition, and their pairing was also dishonoured on the pretext that a closure motion calls off all pairs. I am not long in this House but I never heard of such a rule.

(Interruptions.)

The last vote on section 2 had nothing to do with a closure. It was not a guillotine motion and I want it put on the record of this House that for the fourth time this session the Government have broken pairing arrangements tonight.

These matters are irrelevant to the business under discussion.

The Opposition are——

(Interruptions.)

Fianna Fáil do not own this Dáil or this country any longer. This may come as a big surprise to them.

I move amendment No. 2 (c):

In page 4, subsection (2), line 29, after "date" to add "excluding property consisting of shares or stock in a company to which the Industrial Development Authority has, prior to the 5th day of April, 1975, paid, or agreed in writing to pay, all or part of a new industry grant".

This amendment is designed to ensure that wealth tax will not be applied to property consisting of shares or stock in a company to which the Industrial Development Authority have, prior to the 5th of April of this year paid, or agreed in writing to pay, all or part of a new industry grant. The reason for this amendment is, I am sure clear on its face. This country has, over a long number of years, succeeded in providing a great deal of employment for our people here at home, as a result of the policy which has been pursued in relation to the Industrial Development Authority and the inducements they were able to offer to foreign investors to invest in this country.

One of the very potent weapons in the armoury of the IDA in carrying out this vital national work has been the ability to sell, with credibility, the idea that investors from abroad who invested in this country could rest assured that no move would be made by whatever Government were in office to apply additional taxes after we had got them into the country. Indeed, specific assurances were given to foreign investors in industry in this country to the effect that their profits derived from exports would be free of tax and that no hindrance of any kind would be placed in the way of the repatriation of their profits or, indeed, of their investments.

I have a feeling that many people, including in particular members of the Government, do not understand—or else do not care; but probably they do not understand—just how vitally important it has been in dealing with potential foreign investors, not alone to be able to give this assurance, but to be able to point to the record of the Irish Government over the years, a record which shows unequivocally that, if a deal was made with an Irish Government, that deal was sacrosanct, and there was no question of going back on it. This was very important because there are many other countries with which we are competing for investment where the same could not be said with truth. There are a number of other countries where people were induced to invest from abroad, and the investment having been got in, the Governments of those countries then either, in extreme cases, confiscated the investment or, in less extreme cases, started to apply taxation to those investments in such a way that, if that taxation had been in existence originally, the investment would not have taken place at all.

I know from my personal experience, from contacts I have had with owners of investment in industry in this country, owners from abroad, the reaction there had been to what this Government propose to do in relation to capital taxation.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

It is vitally important that the reputation which this country has built up in the field of the attraction of investment from abroad in industrial development here should be maintained. I know from my personal experience of involvement in this work, and also from the contacts I have had in recent times with some people from abroad who have investments in this country in the industrial field, that there is very considerable apprehension and concern at the effects of the Government's capital taxation proposals. This covers aspects other than what is contained in this Bill, but specifically there is concern at the effect of the proposals in this Bill and in this section

Grants, in some cases, very substantial grants, have been given to industries which were set up in this country. It does not make a great deal of sense to be giving grants on one hand and then applying wealth tax to the assets so produced on the other. This amendment is specifically designed to ensure that whatever may happen in regard to IDA activity after 5th April this year at least in relation to grants given by the IDA prior to 5th April or promised in writing prior to 5th April—and promised in writing effectively means approved with an agreement between the IDA and the promoters of the project—wealth tax will not be levied on such assets.

I believe that something can be salvaged if this amendment or another —if the Minister does not like the drafting of this—prepared by the parliamentary draftsman achieving the same thing is accepted. I am not particularly fussy about the wording but I am very concerned about the sense. I believe that something can be salvaged if an amendment to this effect is written into the Bill. If that is done the IDA will when dealing with potential investors abroad be able to point clearly to the fact that this House took care to ensure that there was no semblance of a suggestion that the Irish Government had gone back on undertakings given. Whatever may be the position after 5th April this year—and that is a matter which one could with advantage perhaps to the country and the provision of jobs in the country discuss but it might not be relevant on this amendment—at least in relation to people who got grants under certain assurances or who have completed negotiations with the IDA on the basis of certain assurances, in those cases if the IDA representatives can point out that care was taken to ensure that no such person had the assurance which was given to him withdrawn or gone back on in any way, I think something can be salvaged from the damage being done by this and other capital taxation proposals of the Government. I have been very concerned in relation to a similar point brought up on another Bill at the attitude of the Minister for Finance. He seemed to me to be either not knowing or not caring about the vital importance of this matter. A reputation such as was built up over the years by Irish Governments and by the IDA acting on behalf of Irish Governments is not something that one comes by easily. It is achieved only by years of hard work and by demonstrating that a deal made with an Irish Government is a deal kept.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

I was saying that the kind of reputation that was built up over the years by the Irish Government and by the IDA, acting on behalf of the Irish Government, is a reputation which, by definition can only be built up over a long number of years. It is a reputation of being reliable people to do business with, a reputation of being people who stick to a deal made and such a reputation, which is invaluable to us, can be lost overnight. I would suggest that no theoretical gain which the Minister or his colleagues might think was involved in not accepting the principle of this amendment could possibly compare in importance from the point of view of the long-term national interest with the maintenance of that reputation.

I believe that acceptance of this amendment or the sense of this amendment will do something to salvage that reputation, whereas non-acceptance of it will overnight cost this country the loss of that reputation. I would like the Minister to ponder that seriously and to realise that if what I am saying is correct—and I believe it to be correct; I have evidence to show that it is correct—the effect does not apply merely to those people who have already invested in Ireland but it will apply to many potential investors in Ireland. It should be known to the Minister that potential investors in this country, having been contacted by the IDA and been given all the details, having come along and viewed sites here and gone a long way to making a final decision, almost invariably as the next step and before making a final decision, consult with people who have invested here, who have factories here, to find out what it is like on the ground, what it is like dealing with Irish people when they are working for you and in particular what it is like when you are actually operating here and dealing with the Government of the day, and do the IDA perform as they claim to do what may be called after sales service.

They do in fact, but the only way that you will get potential investors to accept this is by having them talk to people who are operating here and who have experienced it and know exactly what is happening and who independently and without prompting or any reason why they should say so if it were not true, will volunteer the information as to what happens when you do invest in Ireland.

Therefore, I strongly urge the Minister to consider very carefully, if he proposes not to accept this amendment, the consequences, because as surely as I am standing here, one of the consequences of that will be that people who have invested in this country, will, when consulted, as they invariably are by potential investors, will say—whether it is true or not, they believe it, if the Minister wants to argue it—"We got a promise when we came in here and the Government introduced a Bill which was in breach of that promise and when it was pointed out to them they refused to mend their hand."

I hope that will not be the position. When I say that the Minister might be refusing the sense of the amendment, I hope I am wrong in that, but I want him to know that if that is his intention, that is going to be one of the very serious consequences of his doing so.

(Cavan): Subsection 2 of section 3 provides that a person who is not domiciled and ordinarily resident here shall only be liable for wealth tax in respect of his property situate here. The sense of Deputy Colley's amendment is to exclude from that property shares in certain companies which were grantaided by the IDA up to 5th April of this year.

In passing, as an aside, let me point out that the Deputy's party spokesmen on this Bill appeared to be blowing hot and cold at the same time, because earlier we had many complaints that some sort of preferential treatment was to be accorded to foreigners as against Irish people. That arose out of my pointing out in the early stages of this debate that foreign trading companies were exempt. The Opposition, on realising that, and I think only realising it when on their feet, switched their case and started to argue that thus foreign trading companies were getting fairer treatment vis-á-vis Irish citizens.

Now they are back in as soon as we have got off section 2 to claim that sort of treatment for foreigners. Again, I am happy to be in the position to say to the House and to the country, notwithstanding the fact that this amendment is not acceptable and I do not propose to accept it, that the position of foreign investors as a result of this section and this Bill has not been worsened but, instead, has been improved, and I hope to show that in the remarks that I want to make on this amendment.

I want to say, and I think Deputy Colley knows this perfectly well from his experience as Minister for Finance and otherwise, that the vast bulk of the business done by the IDA with residents of other countries is not done with individuals but is with trading corporations all over the world and I think that at last I have convinced Deputy Colley and the other speakers that foreign trading companies are not taxed.

We never said they were.

(Cavan): I think if Deputy Colley was not surprised, some of his colleagues were surprised. At any rate, as I have said, the IDA does the vast bulk of its business, not with foreign individuals or non-resident individuals, but with foreign trading companies who establish subsidaries here and own shares in those trading companies here and they are not liable. Therefore, in so far as the vast bulk of foreign investors here are concerned, they are no problem.

Let us deal with the individuals who, I must confess, might be affected, if they invest money as individuals in Irish companies, the ones mentioned by Deputy Colley. I must tell the House that thresholds are available for these foreign individual investors and that the tax does not become payable until the taxable income of the investor, be he foreign or Irish, amounts to £70,000.

Taxable assets.

(Cavan): Yes, taxable assets of the taxpayer, whether he is foreign or a native. The taxable assets must amount to £70,000 if he is single, or to £100,000, if he is married. That is a privilege that does not apply in other countries, as far as I can ascertain, where wealth tax operates. There are no thresholds for non-residents, people who are not domiciled and who are not resident. We are writing into this code a substantial privilege for foreign investors in so far as that for purposes of the thresholds we are treating the foreign investors just the same as the native investors.

Tax does not come into operation here for the married man unless his taxable assets amount to £100,000. Up to the end of March last, that individual would be subject to death duties here if he died, at the rate of 41 per cent. Therefore, if a person here with the minimum amount of capital necessary to attract wealth tax dies, he would be relieved by this Government and by the State of £41,000. We are imposing an annual tax on that man of something less than 1 per cent, about .8 per cent, about £800 in a £100,000. I should like to put it to the House and to the country that that man's position has improved considerably. I repeat that the vast majority of investors here will not be concerned with this because they will be shareholders in German companies, American corporations, Dutch or United Kingdom trading companies who will own companies here. I hope it is clear now that the position has improved. Furthermore, we have gone further and we have given the shares the benefit of the 20 per cent productive asset relief given to the shareholders of the funds just as it is given to the Irishman.

It could be argued that, if this favourable treatment were to be given to foreign individual investors, it should also be given in respect of companies established here by them which had not received the benefit of grants from the Industrial Development Authority. They would seem to have a better claim to it than others. I hope I have convinced the House that there is no fear in this for foreign investors, none at all, in so far as that foreign investor is a foreign trading corporation. In so far as the individual investor from abroad is concerned, his position is improved because, up to March last we relieved him of £41,000 at the minimum of his liability and, in lieu of that, we are now imposing a wealth tax of about 0.8 per cent. It will take something well over 41 years for him to suffer as much as if a death occurred. This is the substitution of one capital tax for another.

(Dublin Central): Three capital taxes for one.

(Cavan): It is the substitution of one capital tax for another. I should never like to accuse any of the Deputies on the other side of the House of being bad Irishmen—I would not suggest that they are any less patriotic than I am— but I suggest that, if they misrepresent the effect of this Bill abroad, then they are behaving in a non-patriotic manner. They are doing what they say the Bill will do; they are damaging the chances of this country in attracting foreign investment by misrepresenting the position. The Opposition at the present time is composed of some Deputies who held ministerial office for many years. Because of that they wield considerable influence abroad through contacts they have made and there is a heavier obligation on them not to misrepresent this measure abroad, either directly or indirectly, vocally or tacitly. I do not want to come back to Deputy Colley's letters but in the letter Deputy Colley put on the record of the House it was clear that the writer was talking about foreign corporations.

No. He distinctly said shareholders.

(Cavan): He was talking about foreign corporations and foreign companies. It should be clear that they are not taxed. I would again suggest that responsible people who are in communication with people, such as Mr. Frank Reilly, have a substantial duty, to themselves and to the country, to prevent people from being misled.

(Dublin Central): I do not think industrialists coming to the country will be misled by anybody. They know the score.

(Cavan): Let us hope they are not misled. May I say that one Deputy gave us as a reason for a company changing its mind about establishing a company here that would be affected by this tax. We know that that is simply not so. We know that the company in question changed its mind for other reasons. We know that the company in question before it changed its mind, went to the trouble, as Deputy Fitzpatrick said, of checking on the position in regard to this Bill and was assured that it was not affected.

Notwithstanding that assurance, a Deputy comes into the House and works himself into a frenzy about the loss of this company and attributes the loss to wrong motives. We are all politicians. We were long enough in Opposition and we know that it is the business of the Opposition to be critical of legislation but, when it comes to the question of attacking a measure because of its alleged unattractiveness to foreigners, there is a very heavy obligation on the Opposition to behave extremely responsibly.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
Top
Share