asked the Minister for Lands if he will introduce a system of ten-12 year land leases; and if so, the manner in which the system will work.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Land Leases.
11.
(Cavan): As I have stated already in the House I am in favour of long-term leasing of land. I have given practical and compelling encouragement to this type of land leasing by providing in the farmers' retirement scheme a special premium of twice the lease rent subject to a maximum of £3,000 to those outgoers who lease their land for 12 years or more to potential developing farmers. I am also on record as stating that the Land Commission will readily give their consent to long-term leasing proposals that do not cut across land structural operations. But I do not favour State intervention at this stage either by statutory regulation or by legislation—in my view this course would be counter-productive and would simply deter people from leasing. I am satisfied that the terms and conditions of leases can best be left for settlement to the common sense of the participants— lessor and lessee—as circumstances will vary with the people involved and from district to district. A forceful and sustained public relations exercise is first necessary to popularise long-term leasing in this country, and I am convinced that this should come from the farming organisations if effective results are to be achieved.
The Minister would accept, on the other hand, the inevitability apart from the desirability of long-term leasing?
(Cavan): I do not follow.
That change in land structure in Ireland is inevitable.
(Cavan): I do not think it is inevitable. Our whole history tends towards ownership of land, and while in certain circumstances leasing is desirable and could serve a very useful purpose, I do not accept that it is inevitable.
On the other hand, the Minister would accept that the sensitivity which we have in the matter of land ownership probably arises from our proximity to land wars and agrarian troubles, and when the novelty of that will have disappeared people will be dealing with the land question on what might be regarded as more economic considerations.
(Cavan): That may be, but that is something that will have to work itself in, and I believe that it should be done on a voluntary basis, and any movement by the Department of Lands or the Land Commission to involve itself in leasing and to provide what is commonly called a master lease will only frighten people away from leasing. It has been suggested to me in some journals and newspapers that a master lease should be introduced here on the lines of the Dutch scheme. I find that the Dutch lease which I am referred to provides for the fixing of the rent by the Land Commission. It also provides that before a person can lease his land he must put the land in good condition and if there is any defect in the land which the purchaser does not know about when he is taking it the purchaser will have the right to pursue the owner for any loss he has sustained in putting the land into such condition. If I accepted the Dutch master plan the lessor would be expected to drain his land, presumably, and to put up fences and gates and all the rest of it. It would simply not be on, because most people who are giving a lease do so because they are unable to work the land. There is an emotive campaign going on at the moment in favour of a master lease. I honestly believe that if the Land Commission were to get into this thing and to say “In order to let your land you will have to adopt a lease prepared by the Land Commission”, you would frighten them off. They would think there was a snag in it. The Land Commission are prepared to offer any advice that is sought. Solicitors' offices in Ireland are full of precedents on leases that can easily be adapted to all these cases.
I take it that this is not the time to have a discussion. The Minister referred to the Dutch system. There are virtues in the Dutch system. The Minister referred to the obligation on the farmer to engage in good husbandry. Is that not a desirable situation?
We cannot debate this matter today.
(Cavan): In answer to Deputy Tunney, he does not follow what I said. The Dutch scheme requires the outgoing farmer to leave his farm in perfect condition before he leases.
That is right.
(Cavan): A sensible man like Deputy Callanan would know that land being leased in that way would be land that is run down and would be leased only because the outgoing farmer was getting old or was a bad farmer and had neglected his land.
The Minister is making a case on bad farming.
(Cavan): The Deputy is getting out of his depth.
I will have to call a halt here. I allowed a lot of latitude on this question.
The Deputy has more land than the Minister.
This is not good enough. Order. A brief supplementary question by Deputy Callanan.
I am sorry I was not here for the original answer. I am very interested in this matter. The Land Commission should have a scheme of leasing which they could recommend to interested parties. Leasing is very important. I agree, of course, with the Minister that land being leased is probably land that has been run down and you will not get the holders to bring it up to good condition. There is a scheme under the Farmers' Retirement Scheme. I would recommend a general scheme laying down guidelines which could be worked out between the parties without all these regulations which the Dutch have in regard to the condition of the farm.
(Cavan): The Land Commission will co-operate and will give advice to anybody who comes to them. The Land Commission are not a popular organisation in that they have compulsory powers but if they were to become involved in this issue, people would become suspicious and think there was some snag. It is suggested that the Land Commission should lease land rather than allot it, that that would leave land less costly but since the rent would have to be as high, perhaps, as the annuities, there would not be much point in pursuing such a policy.