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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 29 Jan 1976

Vol. 287 No. 5

Financial Resolutions, 1976. - Financial Resolution No. 11: General (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.
—(The Taoiseach.)

Before the adjournment of the debate I was dealing with the manner in which the farming community have been treated by the Government in this budget and the various ways in which they will be affected by the taxes imposed. I also described the taxing of the agricultural co-operatives as a retrograde step. They are not a profit-making concern but are there to provide a service to the farming community. I was shocked to find that they were being taxed for the first time and given the same status as private companies.

I referred also to the effects on the farmers of the VAT increase, the increased price of petrol, and the 2p on diesel. The Minister for Local Government said it would cost £500,000 to retain the employment subsidy; even though it was only a miserable £17, it is still taking a substantial sum from the farmers. I said I had no objection to the reduction in social welfare provided it was replaced by some scheme which would provide an incentive to the farmer to produce more. I thought the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries would have greater influence, because if we do not export this country is finished, and agricultural commodities are our principal exports. Agriculture is of vital importance, but not enough attention is being given to it.

I was astonished to hear the Minister for Agriculture saying that a farmer with a £15 valuation was not severely handicapped. Maybe that is the case around Dublin where he can specialise, but a man down in the west of Ireland with a £15 valuation——

That is 75 acres of land.

Around my area he would not have 25. This is where the valuation system is rotten. That can happen but it is only a small pocket. I come from an area where the Land Commission holdings given out were between 55 and 30 acres. They are all from 75 pence to 90 pence in the £. The farmers in my area who were getting a fair bit of social welfare, which they did not want—they would prefer production incentives—but which they had to get to survive, will lose heavily by this budget proposal. In my area £30 valuation might give you 40 acres of land, and not great land. In that case, a man with five children who was receiving £13 will now get £1.52 pence. A man with £25 valuation will have about 35 or 30 statute acres.

He can have a means test if he wants to qualify.

But it is not being given out through a means test.

He can have a means test.

Why did the Minister not change to a means test completely? I was always totally opposed to the valuation system. I am talking about a system which is being used to allocate social welfare, that is, on a valuation basis. I am saying that a man with four children who has a £25 valuation will now get £3.46 pence where he formerly got £13.08. A man on £20 valuation with four children who was getting £15 will now get £11.16. A man on £15 valuation with four children who was getting £16 will now get £14.04 pence. A £15 valuation in my area would represent about 20 statute acres of land. Nobody can tell me that a man with 20 statute acres of land is not disadvantaged.

This proposal will mean a big reduction in income to the small farmer. As I said, farmers would prefer an incentive to production rather than social welfare benefit. If this was replaced by a scheme whereby a farm could be planned, as under the old farm incentive scheme, and whereby he could get a good grant as if he was a development farmer, that would be acceptable to the small farmer, but it is wrong to take away social welfare benefit and put nothing in its place.

The increase in the price of petrol and also the increased tax according to the horse power of a car will be hard on the farmer. Farmers as a rule do not buy new cars. A small horse-power car is not much good to a farmer and it is too dear anyway. The higher the horse-power of a car the cheaper you will get it, and this is the type of car farmers usually have. Therefore taking all the farmer will lose under this budget, it will be seen that there is no incentive to them, particularly the small farmer. The farmer between 30 and 60 acres is the hardest hit because he can get nothing. His farm is not big enough for development and it is not small enough for him to get social welfare.

I also spoke before the adjournment about reading a book written by a communist who studied the systems in the capitalist and communist countries, the system that in the communist countries went away from the small family farm into state farms and in the capitalist countries the voluntary co-operative farms and larger farms. The reason given at the time was that it was to take labour from the land to industry. Now there is too much labour in industry; there is under-employment there. The reverse is wanted now, to keep as many people as possible on the land. Having studied both systems the author of this book says the concensus is that the best solution in respect of the two systems, both in regard to the communal system and the State-owned farms in the communist countries and the system of the big ranches and big co-operative farms in the capitalist countries, is to revert to the family farm.

The man said he was a communist. I have not got the book with me but it is well worth reading. He gives a very fair description of two sisters working under the capitalist system and under the communist system. He eventually comes to the conclusion that the family farm seems to be the ideal situation for people and for production. At that time people were wanted in industry, but now, of course, they are not wanted. This is why I stress the need for doing something for the family farm.

I know quite a number of these people who are now hit by this budget. They would prefer to be given incentives rather than social welfare. Of course social welfare is not given now and my argument is that it was unfair to take it away without giving an incentive.

Does the Deputy know that recipients went up from 19,000 to 30,000?

Of course I do. It is due to inflation.

It has nothing to do with inflation.

Suddenly in 1976 we turn around and strike at a certain type of farm that is finding it hard to survive. These farms are not in the development category and they are not recognised in the EEC. I know the Government are doing their best to change the situation and I am behind them in this but at present the type of farm which the Minister says is not disadvantaged is not recognised and does not get support as a development farm. The farmer has been badly treated in this budget. I am only putting up a case for the Government.

Thank you very much, Deputy.

That is all right. I believe you are in a bloody hopeless minority. As Bruce Arnold said in The Irish Independent the Government divided all the chocolates among the children in the morning and there were no chocolates left after lunch.

I know workers who drive 20 miles to Galway every day. They will now be hit by the increase of 13p in the price per gallon of petrol, 10p now and 3p later. If a man wants to drink he is entitled to do so, but he will now pay 5p extra for a pint and 6p after the 1st March. If a man is a smoker —and any reasonable smoker will smoke 20 cigarettes a day—he will have to pay 3p extra now and 1p later. How do this Government intend to keep the workers to a wage freeze?

The Minister for Finance mentioned the huge sum of money that the health scheme was costing the Exchequer. I agree, but I did ask the Minister for Health on one or two occasions to consider more home care for people with relatives which I believe would save a lot of money. I understand that hospitals and homes are packed out at the moment, and the reason is because the prescribed relative will not get an allowance unless the person is bed-ridden. That is terribly wrong. I do not know the cost of keeping a patient in a hospital or a home but it must be fairly high. If an old person is living with a relative and there is a third person in the house, for example if a daughter is living with a father or mother, she will get an allowance, but if she marries and has her husband in the house she gets nothing for the upkeep of the elderly relative. I have raised this question time and again. If that woman had three or four children and the doctor came to see the elderly parent it is quite understandable that she will say: "I have a right to mind my children". If she were receiving a decent allowance in respect of her elderly parent she would not put the parent into hospital. There are plenty of people taking up hospital beds today who could be well looked after at home if an allowance were given to a relative. A person who is not a relative can get an allowance for minding anybody. We could keep hundreds of people out of hospital and reduce the expense of hospitals by giving more for home care.

Another point I wish to make is that there was no mention of the question of obtaining off-shore oil or gas. The Sligo Development Association have written to a number of TDs in the west, but unless the Government do something about it shortly there will be rings formed outside the country. Who will be dealing with this? We do not seem to be making any progress here.

In conclusion I will say that the occasion of this budget is the first time that this Government have come to realise that the country cannot go on borrowing unless it pays its way, and this is the first time they have said it with force, but their attempt to come down with the hammer indicates that their priorities are wrong. Some sections of the community are severely hit by this budget. Through the device against agriculture, even though it is the most important section for exports, the worker is going to be very hard hit. Even after all the borrowing that is going on the Government will not nearly be able to balance. They are putting on taxes and borrowing. I cannot understand how the Government for years past did not borrow for the purpose of draining the land and giving the Land Commission the money to enable people to settle on the land. This would have been productive and money well spent, but we seem to be borrowing for anything that is not productive or essential.

I do not wish to emphasise too much the gloom of the situation. The Government have caught themselves on but in doing so the nation is going to suffer severely, particularly the people whom I represent, the people in the west, who are going to be very hard hit with expenses. Workers have to travel long distances to work. They are going to be hit by prices going up. The farmers will be hit by their social welfare being cut. The Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries is present and before I sit down I will appeal to him to get a national scheme going for these farmers to give them a chance to work to a plan to bring up production and help to export goods, and to give them a chance to get grants and to plan their farms.

In approaching this budget debate we should see it in the context of and against the background of the economic situation in which we find ourselves. The budget must be judged in terms of that economic situation, in terms of its relevance and appropriateness to that situation. It must be judged also in the context of the actual financial situation the Government find themselves in and the limitations and constraints that these may impose on their freedom of action.

The economic situation in the last few months has changed somewhat. No longer are we in a period of decline. There has been a levelling off. There has been a halt to this decline in our economy. There has not been a recovery. There is no question of a sudden boom or anything like that, far from it, but there is evidence that the decline has halted. You have the improvement in the level of retail sales in the latter few months of the year and the recovery in imports reflecting restocking by firms who had allowed their stocks to run down very far, a levelling off in the decline in industrial production in the third quarter. You have had, moreover, although it is not evident on the surface of the figures, evidence of a levelling off of unemployment. Let me spend a minute or two on this because this is an area where the figures are of their nature misleading.

The Central Bank gives the first three.

Let me make my point. If the Deputy wants to challenge me afterwards, fair enough. The position here is that you have, of course, a very strong seasonal component in unemployment. It always rises sharply in the winter, particularly in the period immediately after Christmas. It is important to try to detect the underlying trend in unemployment. For this purpose seasonal correction factors are applied. There are some doubts about these seasonal correction factors, especially when the whole scale of unemployment has changed as it has done with a sharp increase in the last couple of years. On the best seasonal adjustment available there is evidence of fractional decline in unemployment in November as against October, some indication of this continuing in December although the December figures are unreliable. Because of the effect of the day of the week on which Christmas falls, the end December figures are not a reliable indicator. The trend in January, where there has been the usual sharp post-Christmas seasonal increase, so far suggests that the end January figure when seasonally adjusted will show a decline of several thousand in the underlying trend of unemployment by comparison with November and December. We cannot be certain yet until we get to the end of the month, but last week's figure showed a very small increase and unless the increase in the current fortnight, the last two weeks of the month, is as high as 4,000, certainly the seasonally adjusted figure for unemployment at the end of January will be below the figure for November which itself was below the figure for October. In fact, it looks as if we are at the stage now where the underlying trend of unemployment is slightly downwards and has brought us back to the position of about last June. This is something which will only become clear when we get the figures in January and February and when the seasonal adjustments are made to them, and I am in a sense, sticking my neck out a bit by making this point at this stage, but it is important and we should not be misled by superficial appearances. The reality of a levelling off in the decline in our economy with an impact on unemployment occurring sooner than one might have expected is a feature of our economy at the end of last year.

This does not mean, however, that any real recovery involving a substantial increase in output or a significant drop in unemployment is likely in the six or even perhaps nine months ahead. What we have at the moment is a reaction to the excessive running down of stocks. It is to some degree a technical recovery. It is limited in character, and only two things can make that a worth-while recovery. One is, and only within strict limits, the action the Government take in the budget in seeking to stimulate output and employment. Given the external restraints, given the problems of borrowing, given the continuing sluggish demand in most export markets, there are strict limits to what the Government can do, but the Government can do something in the budget to encourage this recovery, to give it a bit of a boost in the nine months ahead as we wait for the external demand factor, which is ultimately the important one, to take effect.

That is what this budget within the restraints imposed by the financial difficulties is designed to do, as I shall show in a few minutes. Our hope would be, then, that this would lead to a recovery so that in the current year taken as a whole national output, instead of falling by 3 per cent as it did last year, would rise by perhaps 2 per cent. That is the Minister for Finance's forecast. Personally I would hope that he may be a little pessimistic and that the upturn towards the end of the year may be somewhat sharper and the recovery more than 2 per cent. The Minister for Finance is right to be cautious in an area where over the past couple of years every country's expert forecasters have proved to be too optimistic.

That is the economic background. What is needed then is a budget which within the limits of what is financially possible and financially wise will give some stimulus to the economy, and that is what this budget is designed to do, and when it is examined it will be seen that it is orientated in this direction very strongly indeed. This is most noticeable on the capital side.

We have a problem here in the presentation of the budget, to be quite frank about it. The traditional system under which the expenditure figures are published first and accepted as given and then the Minister comes in to find the money to pay for the expenditure is one which can give a false impression of the impact of the budget. The budget is not just the Minister for Finance coming in and announcing £100 million extra taxation. The budget is the sum total of the decisions taken by Government on expenditure and revenue and it is only when seen as a whole that its impact can be seen. Virtually every budget involves some increase in taxation. That does not mean that every budget is deflationary. It is the overall impact of expenditure and revenue, current and capital, which determines whether the budget is deflationary or reflationary. If one takes the budget as a whole and examine its composition, current and capital, and the increases under different headings, and take this in conjunction with the increase in taxation one gets an overall picture of a budget which is to a significant degree reflationary, not strongly so because the financial constraints are such that there is a limit to what can be done, but strongly, orientated in that direction.

A broad test that one can apply as to whether a budget is reflationary or not, before looking at details of the pattern of expenditure and taxation, is the trend of capital spending and of current deficit. Current deficit as now forecast is higher than last year by about £68 million. This represents an increase which is significantly higher but not enormously higher than the expected increase in the cost of living. It means the deficit will be slightly larger in real terms. On the capital side the increase in capital spending foreshadowed is 27½ per cent which is roughly twice the expected increase in the cost of living during the year. This means that the volume of capital spending is up 14 per cent. A budget which after the addition of taxation involves a somewhat higher current deficit and a significant increase in capital spending is a budget which in broad terms is reflationary.

When one comes to examine the composition of the spending, on the capital side in particular, one sees how strongly orientated it is in this direction because, if Deputies examine the capital programme they will find that there is a very striking increase in certain particular areas, the areas which are most likely to generate employment, the areas in particular of industry and tourism and I would add as a very productive area, the modernisation of agriculture. Taking these three together, in the 1975 budget these three together absorbed about 22½ per cent of the Exchequer capital spending. The increase in spending in these areas is 70 per cent, which is a colossal increase, an increase in real terms of over 50 per cent. Even allowing for price changes, that is a colossal increase in capital investment in these highly productive areas most of which have important employment implications. The effect has been, in fact, that something like 60 per cent of the whole increase in capital spending is concentrated in these areas, which themselves represent barely one-fifth of existing capital spending. There is a remarkable reorientation of the Government's capital programme in a highly productive direction, in a direction most likely to yield economic growth and increased employment. The combination, therefore, of the overall pattern of the budget with a somewhat increased current deficit in real terms and a substantially increased capital programme in real terms, and within that capital programme priority given to productive projects, industry, tourism and the modernisation of agriculture—the sum total of that is a significant reflation of the economy.

It is necessarily limited because of financial constraints, and it has involved considerable restraint in other areas to divert resources in these directions in order to achieve this result. Certainly, nobody looking at the budget objectively could regard it as deflationary; it is a reflationary budget within the limits of what is possible at this time. The problem the Government faces in this budget is the large increases required under the headings of public service pay and remuneration of debt. Public service pay increases are, of course, limited to the carry-over effect of increases in a national wage round last year, together with some special claims conceded in the early part of the year, before the Government indicated that they were not in a position to make further concessions in the form of special claims.

The carry-over effect of the national wage round into 1976, and of whatever special claims were conceded in the first half of last year, without any further increase in public pay in the current year—apart from the 2.8 per cent arising from the last stage of the 16th round—is an increase of £112 million, or about 20 per cent in public service pay. Of that figure 2 per cent is accounted for by increased numbers in two areas, in the Army and in teaching to keep up with the increased number of pupils, something I am sure Deputy Wilson will welcome although no doubt he will say it is inadequate.

I welcome more pupils.

These are the two areas in which priority is given in regard to numbers. It is an 18 per cent increase per capita arising from the carry-over effect. There is £100 million extra in remuneration of debt arising from the increased borrowing required last year. Therefore, these two areas together account for something approaching twice the buoyancy of tax revenue which is estimated at £129 million. Either one of these on its own would absorb almost the whole of the buoyancy of tax revenue. In addition, the Government have to provide for the increased cost of social welfare, the carry-over effect of last year's increases, and the fact that even with gently declining unemployment as we are likely to have from now on the volume of unemployment during much of the year will, nevertheless, be higher than it was at the same period last year. Even if there were no socal welfare increases, and we have given a 10 per cent increase to cover the first six months of the financial year, we would have to face an increase. In addition there is the carry-over effect of the subsidies given last year in connection with the reduction of the cost of living and the Government's counter-inflationary policies and in its successful efforts to have the national wage agreement renegotiated, and all these have to be paid for before one comes to Government spending proper, the rest of non-pay expenditure. In that area the Government have taken severe measures to cut back on any unnecessary expenditure which does not generate employment. This is an area where the Government can and must do something. It is an area where the increase in non-pay expenditure, apart from social welfare and the subsidies, is an increase of only 11 per cent which in real terms means a reduction of 3 per cent in this area. The reduction was achieved by careful pruning of expenditure under many headings, but all headings that would not have an effect on employment.

The fact that the Government have been able, for the first time in many years—I am not sure if this has happened before in living memory—to actually cut the volume of non-pay expenditure in this way by pruning, under a whole variety of headings, is a substantial achievement. It involved cutting out something like 20 per cent of the increases sought by different Departments. It was a difficult and painful exercise but one well worth while, because inevitably over the years the public current spending develops a certain amount of fat which needs to be pruned from time to time. In conditions like the present that pruning was necessary, desirable and healthy. An important feature of the budget is that there has been this holding-down of non-pay expenditure in real terms, diversion of resources on to the capital side and, within the capital programme itself, a marked diversion towards productive investment. All these features of the budget should help to achieve good economic results in the current year.

There have been allegations from the other side of the House that the budget is not alone deflationary but that it is inflationary. It is hard to reconcile these different allegations, but it is worth considering the budget in this context. In my view the budget is not an inflationary budget. At this stage I should like to say something about Fianna Fáil's proposals about the budget now and over the last couple of years. It is worth reviewing them to see where we would be if Fianna Fáil were in Government, on the dubious assumption that if in Government they would have done the things which they said they would do while in Opposition. In the course of an article in The Irish Times Deputy Colley suggested tax increases which were slightly lower than the Government introduced, of the order of £75 million to £100 million. He suggested that the Government should rely largely on the old reliables and, to a very significant extent, we have done so. He also spoke of the need to increase taxes that do not affect employment and/or inflation, but he was notably unspecific as to what form of taxation has these beneficial characteristics. It would be useful if during the course of the debate Fianna Fáil Deputies would indicate what this magic tax is.

Despite the fact that Deputy Colley advocated taxation of the approximate order of magnitude of that which has been imposed and that he advocated a fair degree of reliance on the old reliables Fianna Fáil nevertheless opposed the tax increases. If they had been successful in their efforts in opposing them the deficit facing us would be larger than it is today.

(Dublin Central): I do not think Deputy Colley recommended an increase in the price of petrol.

He was unspecific. I cannot tell the Deputy whether the petrol tax is the magic tax which he said will not affect employment and/or inflation because he has not told us which tax it is and I would not be sure if the Deputy is right in thinking it is the petrol tax.

As the Minister has said Deputy Colley dodged everything, and that is what the Opposition have been doing all the time.

If the Ministers read a little bit of past history they would see that Deputy Colley left a £10 million deficit in his last year and not a deficit of £260 million.

It is the Opposition's job to dodge, but they should dodge a little more elegantly. Let us review Fianna Fáil's proposals. We have been doing some research into those proposals in an effort to find out what the cost of them would be. I should like to sum up for the House the size of deficits we would have had to face in the last couple of years if Fianna Fáil's proposals were adopted.

The Minister should remember that the deficit was £10 million when we left office.

In 1974 Deputy Lynch proposed that we should have increased social welfare by 25 per cent as against an increase of 18 per cent which we gave. That would have cost £8 million extra. Deputy Lynch wanted tax-free allowances which would give people a saving of £125 for a man, wife and three children, and that would have cost, conservatively, £20 million extra. He wanted agricultural rates abolished and that would have cost £18 million extra. He also wanted a subsidy on the green pound from September, 1974, which would have cost £6 million extra. If those proposals of Fianna Fáil had been adopted the deficit in 1974 would have been about 50 per cent greater than it was; instead of £91 million it would have been £144 million.

For 1975 Fianna Fáil made a number of proposals. They were against the petrol and other indirect tax rises. Had they not been imposed the deficit would have been £60 million greater. They wanted to introduce, they claimed, certain subsidies earlier than the Government. Deputy Colley claimed that he said this in a speech in September, 1974, but diligent research has so far failed to elicit any published statement to this effect, but I have no doubt that Fianna Fáil speakers will direct our attention to what we have missed. The subsequent claim to have proposed these VAT reductions in subsidies as early as that, if true and if it is what Fianna Fáil would have done, would have meant a net cost of £45 million more than the cost of the subsidies introduced in June by the National Coalition. Fianna Fáil also wanted a 20 per cent tax allowance rise as against the 15 per cent which we were able to concede, and that would have cost £9 million extra. They thought that instead of £11 million for industry we should have given £50 million; that would have cost £39 million extra. They did not want capital taxes introduced and they spent a lot of time trying to stop them; that would have cost about £3 million.

Allowing for possible savings in public-sector pay, if their proposals had been introduced there might have been a saving of £15 million in public-sector pay and the effect of all this would be an additional deficit of £141 million in 1975 in addition to the £52 million extra deficit they would have carried over from 1974. That means that in 1975 the deficit would have been not £259 million but £452 million.

With regard to 1976, as far as I can calculate the effect of their proposals for this year and the carry over from the two previous years would have given us an opening deficit of £586 million as against £433 million.

Deputy Colley said he would have increased taxation by £75 million to £100 million and the remaining deficit would have been about £486 million to £511 million. Fianna Fáil policy, as stated in Fianna Fáil utterances — I hope I have not omitted or distorted any statement they have made; I think I have given an accurate account— would have yielded a deficit of £144 million in 1974 as against £91 million, of £452 million in 1975 as against £259 million, and somewhere of the order of £500 million in 1976 as against £327 million. Fianna Fáil statements were made with a certain amount of prodigality which opposition encourages and government makes impossible.

We would have been approximately £600 million more in deficit under Fianna Fáil with an appropriate amount of additional remuneration of debt. I have given Deputies all the figures. I have shown my hand completely and they can tell me if I have misrepresented them——

(Dublin Central): Has the Minister ever heard of expanding the economic base?

I am glad the Deputy asked that question. In order to prevent these deficits increasing in this way as I calculated the buoyancy of revenue would need to have been more than 50 per cent higher as a result of these magnificent Fianna Fáil policies. The best rate of buoyancy we have had in recent years is about 20 per cent and it is not to be believed that even the prodigality of Fianna Fáil in having these massive deficits and spending on the scale they proposed would have increased by two-and-a-half times the best figure for buoyancy the country has ever achieved.

In what year was that achieved?

We should not be misled too much by Fianna Fáil references to the possibility of inducing buoyancy by the prodigality of their policies. For a party who have made proposals on these lines, which would have left us £600 million more in deficit after four years, to accuse us of being spendthrift shows a degree of effrontery which does great credit to the Opposition in terms of their oratorical prowess but very little in terms of their economic expertise.

I must not omit a further Fianna Fáil proposal, if it is such, that put forward by their economic adviser, Martin O'Donoghue, who before the budget called for a 10 per cent cut in public service pay and a £30 million cut in social welfare. He was speaking at a conference a few days ago. If this was a Fianna Fáil proposal it would have brought the deficit down to not more than £80 million above what it is for the current year.

(Dublin Central): I do not know how the Minister can call that statement a Fianna Fáil proposal. He was speaking at a conference——

It is not Fianna Fáil policy? I understand Mr. O'Donoghue is the economic adviser to Fianna Fáil. Perhaps the Deputy is saying Fianna Fáil have rejected his advice?

(Dublin Central): No, I am not saying that.

Fianna Fáil have not accepted or rejected his advice? If that is the case it is not worth their while employing him as an adviser. They should reconsider his appointment in those circumstances.

That is what the Taoiseach did with the Minister when he formed the Government. He was the economic expert.

As a Minister of three years standing I am somewhat at a loss to understand that remark.

The country is at a loss because of the Minister's remarks before the last election.

I am sure the fact that I am no longer in opposition is a great loss from one point of view but I hope there are some compensating gains for the country.

When the Minister was in opposition he could tell us how to run the country but he cannot do it now.

The Minister should be allowed to make his speech without interruption.

The Fianna Fáil efforts in telling us how to run the country confirm the wisdom of the people in keeping them in opposition until they come down to earth again and have some concept of economic reality.

Why not go to the country?

(Dublin Central): The Minister should go around the streets of Dublin this evening and he will get some reaction to the budget.

As far as the Minister is concerned history begins post-1973——

I have already told Deputies that the Minister should be allowed to speak without interruption. Deputies will have an opportunity to make their own contributions.

The contrast between the extraordinarily conservative budgeting of Fianna Fáil in the sixties which showed no sign of ever having heard of Lord Keynes and the remarkable prodigal, phantom budgeting in the seventies is very striking. For Fianna Fáil to move from their policy in the sixties of absolutely balancing every budget within the £4 million tolerance for net errors of estimation and to reach the stage of advocating a deficit of £600 million in a single year is carrying conversion too far. Of course, those who are converted are inclined to be overenthusiastic for the cause, but I think Deputies opposite should not overdo it to that extent.

The Minister is spending too much time in the air.

The Deputy thinks I am spending too much time on Fianna Fáil. I suppose from one point of view that is true because one could argue that their policy proposals are not worth the amount of time I am spending on them. It is right that people should be shown the contrast between the Government's policies and those of the Opposition——

(Dublin Central): The Minister should read the reports of the economic experts in today's newspapers.

The number of interruptions during my economic analysis is a fair indication that I must have struck very near the bone and naturally that gives me great pleasure. We should look ahead to the future and, given the stimulus to the economy provided by this budget, we should see what kind of prospect there is for the economy in the period immediately ahead. As the Minister for Finance wisely and courageously looked further ahead, we must also consider the medium-term future which is in many ways a pretty grim one because of the problems facing the country.

So far as the immediate future is concerned, there has been a limited recovery, a bouncing off the bottom of the depression in recent months. The Government's budgetary measures should maintain this impetus and improve it so that during the greater part of this year there should be some recovery in the economy and a small decline in unemployment, seasonally adjusted. The decline in unemployment will appear greater than it is when we get over the hump of the seasonal peak in March——

(Dublin Central): It did not happen last year.

We must not be deceived by that because the underlying trend is unlikely to show a very sharp drop in unemployment and one could easily be deceived by the non-seasonally adjusted figures from March to July. There will be some small recovery in the economy and an improvement in the underlying trend of unemployment, a continuation of the trend we have had since last October in the seasonally adjusted figures.

It will not be until the second half and the end of the year that this recovery is likely to take more concrete shape when the present recovery in the United States and Japan communicates itself to Europe in the first half of the year and eventually to Britain and to us. We are not helped here by the fact that we are still to a significant degree dependent on the UK economy—even after three years' membership of the EEC. That economy is likely to be one of the more sluggish in Europe this year, as in so many past years. Nevertheless, towards the end of the year the stimulus of increased external demand should begin to have its impact and it should stimulate confidence here. We have a very substantial spare capacity at present and with the availability of labour which, God help us, is certainly the least of our problems —there are far too many people available—and the spare capacity within industry it will be possible to achieve very substantial increases in output, in productivity and substantial improvements in labour costs if we can maintain the pay pause during the year which should put us in a good position to face 1977 and 1978, years which are likely to be in the world, in Europe and hopefully in this country years of very rapid economic growth indeed.

The problem will be how the 1977-78 boom is handled by the great economic powers of the world. Do they handle it wisely so that growth can be maintained thereafter or do we plunge again into another recession because of the inability of the major countries in the capitalist world jointly to control their economies? That is a question one could not begin to answer at this stage. We ought at this stage to prepare for the very sharp rise in demand and output in 1977 and 1978. We ought to begin to consider how we handle that situation because it will be important that we do not allow an excessive proportion of the increased output to be diverted to private consumption and that we operate policies, difficult though they may be to operate and unpopular though they may be, to divert as much as possible of the increased resources into productive investment.

The policies that we have adopted over the last 50 years, although they have given us a measure of economic growth, have proved, as the Minister for Finance pointed out so effectively yesterday, quite inadequate to the scale of our employment surplus problem, one which will be more difficult in the years ahead than it has been in those years. This is the real difficulty we face. It is aggravated because the number of people coming on the labour market will be greater. We have gone through a period when there has been an increase in marriage and birth rates which will impinge on the entries to the labour market in a few years' time.

We have gone through a period when there was a very rapid intake in the educational sector, which at a certain point begins to taper off, so that the extra people taken out of the labour market entrants each year to be retained in education will begin to diminish. That is not very well put but it is a difficult concept. Over recent years the number of people entering the labour market has been consistently lower than the number of people passing 15 years of age because each year more people have remained on in the educational sector. I believe that process has already begun to diminish to some degree and the retentions in the educational sector will not be such a big factor in reducing input into the labour market.

I do not want to interrupt the Minister but is there not also a lay off in that some people continued in school this year who, if they had jobs available, would not have done so?

There is an immediate factor present certainly. At the moment there will be people staying on in school and some going to university as the safest place to be in a period of high unemployment so that they will be released on the market also. That is a relatively small and temporary addition. I am thinking more of long term trends running against us. There is the very sharp increase in the number of married women in employment, the whole change of attitudes here moving from the position where married women remaining in employment after marriage was commonly disapproved of to a stage where married women seem to feel that they will be found some way inadequate if they do not remain on in employment. This shift in attitudes here means that a significant proportion of the additional vacancies becoming available will be taken up by married women on a scale that was not the case previously, or, to put it another way around, that the vacancies which in the past occurred almost automatically on marriage will in the future only occur in a certain number of cases on marriage.

It is a problem.

It is a problem that vacancies for people coming on the labour market for the first time will become more acute. The number of extra jobs needed at any time is a function, on the one hand, of vacancies becoming available and, on the other hand, people coming on the labour market. These are two aggregates. It is the difference between them which determines the number of extra jobs required. If you get even quite small changes in either or both aggregates you can get very big changes in the residual which is the number of new jobs required. The increase in the number of new jobs required is likely to be quite disproportionate. The figure is, as the Minister for Finance pointed out, likely to be on a scale far beyond anything we have been able to cope with hitherto.

We no longer can get away with the easy outlet of emigration which in the past was the case. Where emigration was easily available people were accustomed to emigrate and this deprived Irish Governments of the incentive to solve our problems at home. Over 50 years we had things too easy. If it was not possible for people to emigrate as easily as they could in those years the rise in unemployment here on a massive scale would have forced Governments of all complexions into much more radical measures to deal with the unemployment problem. That ready access to emigration is not there any longer. The outlets are not that easy.

Other countries will also suffer a long term structural unemployment problem which will make them places to which people will be rather reluctant to go. We have, rightly, improved our social welfare provisions to a point where there is no longer the pressure to move to Britain because the dole was higher there than it was here. It used to be the case for many years right through the period of the last Government, it must be said. That has changed, too, and the contrast between Northern Ireland and the Republic, where in Northern Ireland people remained at home because the dole was high and they did not emigrate, and in the Republic, where people left because the social welfare benefits were better in Britain, has now disappeared, and the incentive to emigrate has disappeared.

We must begin to solve these problems at home. The scale of difficulties this will create is not understood and the extent to which it will be necessary for us to shift our policies over towards a much larger scale of productive investment is not understood. The implications of that for the availability of resources for other purposes is not understood. It will be the job of politicians, and I hope Fianna Fáil will join construtively with us in trying to get this message across in a general way, while naturally continuing to criticise the Government in regard to the carrying out of their duties, which is the job of an Opposition, in trying to educate public opinion to the scale of the problems that will face us in the period after this 1977-78 boom as we move on towards the eighties and of the need to change many popular, easy policies and do things which are difficult and tough, which will be necessary, in order to obtain employment on the scale which will be needed in that period. This is something to which we must turn our minds as we move ahead through this year. The immediate task facing us will be to consider what policies we should adopt to ensure that the increased output in 1977-78 does not go in the wrong direction to a consumer boom but that it is diverted to constructive national purposes, what kind of policies, what kind of tax policies will make that possible. This is the difficulty.

The Minister is guaranteeing that 1977-78 will be a boom period?

It is highly probable and this country does not have to benefit from it. In the past we have shown our capacity to fail to benefit from booms abroad. This happened in the fifties when the economy of this country stagnated while that of others was booming. We are capable of missing out in a boom but we do not have to. If we have self-discipline to come through this year with a pay pause and come into 1977 in a good posture with regard to level of income, level of pay, level of labour costs, then the boom that pretty certainly will occur in the world at large and in Europe in 1977-78 can overflow to this country. Our problem is to arrive in 1977 in the right posture in terms of income levels and then to use our powers of government wisely in those years, to begin the diversion of resources into investments on the kind of scale necessary to cope with the employment problems which we will face in those years and in the years that follow.

(Dublin Central): A bad example was set yesterday.

This seems to me to be the kind of approach which we should be adopting towards our economic problems at present. For this purpose the economic plan being prepared by the Government will provide the framework for public discussion and debate. We must start by posing the issues, by telling people what kind of future there is for them if we job along the way we have been going traditionally and where that will leave us in terms of growth rates and unemployment. We then have to show them the contrast, what could be achieved if we have the courage to take tough decisions, the kind of growth that could be achieved, the kind of impact on employment.

These are the alternatives we must pose, and the purpose of planning should first be to pose these alternatives, to get public discussion going, to mobilise public opinion in favour of courageous policies based on a medium-term plan that will relate to the scale of the problems that we have to face. That is the job we have ahead of us, and with this budget behind us we can embark on that plan.

There have been some very famous European composers of fairytales—the Grimm Brothers, Hans Christian Andersen and others—but most of them did not go for their raw material to economics, which is not a very promising place to go for raw materials for fairytales, but I must say that with a fascinating piece of word-weaving the Minister for Foreign Affairs has just done that. He has composed a marvellous fairytale about the economy and the future, and history he left out. When talking about deficits he never went back to look at the purse as it was handed to the present Minister for Finance after a long period of stewardship by Fianna Fáil.

He spoke about the lack of economic expertise on this side of the House, and if it is evidence of economic expertise to estimate a current budget deficit of £24.6 million for 1975 and end up with a £259 million deficit, that is the kind of economic expertise I for one would be very willing to do without. If I also had come here claiming I had a packet to right the economy in 1976 and estimated a current budget deficit of £327 million, I would be doubtful about my economic expertise, and I would be doubly doubtful if it dawned on me that I might be wrong in this one too and that the deficit at the end of 1976 might be proportionately as large in difference from the estimated one, as happened last year.

The Government to a certain extent were saved last year by what was called the buoyancy of earnings from agriculture, and the Minister for Foreign Affairs when he was taking on the prophet role did not consider this at all, though he quoted from the Central Bank Report on several occasions. On page 23 that report states:

Agricultural exports may not be so buoyant in 1976. In particular the volume of cattle and beef exports is forecast to fall by about one third and the increase in the price of dairy exports may be as little as one half of that which took place in 1975. These figures suggest that there will actually be a decrease in the value of agricultural exports in 1976 of about 5 per cent and a fall in volume of about 20 per cent.

While the Minister was getting the raw material for his economic fantasy he carefully avoided all references in the documents from which he quoted that would tend to give a gloomier picture of the economic prospect for this year, and one of the points that should be made is that there has been a fall in cattle output of 560,000 head. This is bound to cause economic difficulty later in 1976.

Nearly everything the Minister for Finance said yesterday posited a pay pause in the theoretical part of the speech; and in the practical part of it nearly everything he did was guaranteeing that there would not be and could not be a pay pause. Most of the speakers so far have referred in particular to the increase in the cost of petrol. There is also an increase in the cost of insurance on cars, there may very well be a scarcity of petrol at the end of this year, there is the increase in VAT charges, the increase in motor vehicle duty—all nails in the coffin of the social partnership.

We do not seem to be able to think up our own terminology when we are dealing with our own problems. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach wrote about this recently. We talk about social partners because our neighbour talks social contracts. We seem to be taking everything from across the water, including our economic and social terminology.

And our furniture.

And our furniture, of course. The social partners can sit on it. The fact is that you cannot continue to have a partnership if one of the partners, namely the Government, is inefficient and unjust, and if the Government call for a pay pause and at the same time stick their hands into the pockets of the workers, the social partners, it is very hard to build confidence or to guarantee that any kind of a partnership will continue to exist.

I should like if the Minister for Finance would comment on this whole question later on—it is one that puzzles me—of wages and competitiveness in the export business. Some economists have been dubious about this matter: for example, has the economic state of the countries to which goods are being exported a far greater effect on depressing the export market than have the wages of our workers? I am not coming down on one side or the other—I am open to conviction on the matter. If one is convinced, then it should be possible to convince the perfectly reasonable people who compose the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. In the past three years, according to the documentation, there has been a 251 per cent increase in the annual borrowing of the Central Bank. To what purpose? I shall come back to this later.

In 1973, 1974 and 1975 we had an 11 per cent, a 17 per cent and a 21 per cent inflation rate respectively. We had fantasy deficits from the Minister for Foreign Affairs today for Fianna Fáil. In 1972-73 the deficit was £5½ million. In 1973-74 it was £10 million. Now we begin to get into business. For the nine months in 1974 it was £92 million. In 1975 it was £259 million and the figure projected for 1976 is £327 million. Economic expertise, my granny's grunt! Anyone who has the effrontery to claim economic expertise and end up with that kind of figure, while productive investment is declining, has a brass neck. I would suggest that the Director of the National Gallery should send over to the office of the Minister for Finance a lovely set of paintings. I think they are on loan from Sir Alfred Beit. The pictures are called "The Prodigal Son". They were painted by a famous painter, Bartolomé Esteban Murillo. I think there are four pictures altogether. There is a remarkable resemblance between the prodigal son and the Minister for Finance.

There is a high price on both, is there?

The lesson is an expensive one, I will admit. The whole mise en scène is extremely good. There is a nice young man, well-groomed in picture No. 1, surrounded by luxury and wealth. He is given his patrimony to go and set up on his own. In the second picture—I speak from memory —he is carousing, spending his money on obviously unproductive purposes. In the third he has reached the end of the trail. The husks the swine ate are providing him with a meal. But there is a happy ending, as we all know. In the last picture he is back home. He has been welcomed and— I am afraid Murillo's idea of a fatted calf and mine would be different— there is a calf peeping in at a door, obviously ready for the slaughter. The Minister for Finance might have difficulty about the calf because we have allowed a great number of our calves to be sent to Italy. I think it would be a good thing for the Minister to get these paintings—they are magnificent—and to study them and learn a lesson from them. The country would benefit thereby.

The Minister for Foreign Affairs said there was a recovery around the corner. Of course this recovery was around the corner for 1975, but it did not materialise. There must be—I agree with him—a certain recovery anyway seeing that there must be restocking. There has been a considerable amount of—I do not like the word, but the economists are using it —destocking over the last couple of years, a run down of stocks, and there is bound to be a restocking and so there will be a stimulus to imports and, in general, that should improve the economy.

Old Mother Hubbard's cupboard is bare, or nearly bare, and it will have to be restocked and this should have a good effect on the economy. In 1975 there was a fall of 3¼ per cent in gross national product, and I cannot understand why the Minister for Foreign Affairs, so jocular, so avuncular and so jovial about the economic situation, did not avert to this. I want to quote now from page 10 of the report of the Central Bank:

Notwithstanding the difficulties of the present recession it is necessary to stress also the longer-term needs of the economy, particularly, a high rate of investment to create capacity to meet growing employment need.

Except for a little bit of a proviso at the end the Minister for Foreign Affairs did not say very much in this regard.

In turn, this high rate of investment requires an adequate level of domestic savings——

They went up last year because people began to get afraid.

——including, in particular, retained profits.

The general trend on the part of members of the Government, including the Minister for Finance, has been to criticise people with wealth, to say a whole series of laws was necessary to milk certain people of wealth to which they were not entitled. I would be very much in favour of a proper distribution of wealth because I know the social evil and the danger of concentrating wealth in too few hands, but at times terms were being used— universal discourse was employed— more suited to other societies than to ours. I thought really that in this budget the Minister would give tax concessions to industrialists who were expanding employment and expanding production to encourage them to have confidence in the Government, because these people have not much confidence in the Government at present and part of the recession and the stagnation is due to that lack of confidence.

I will refer briefly to a discussion we had on the IDA Bill which is relevant to this point. During the Second Stage debate I made reference to an article by the head of the ESRI. He pointed out that the Danish Government was particularly lenient taxwise to industrialists who were investing and expanding their industries and employment—that happened in a country where taxes were very high. In my view, there is a case for this here.

The Minister in his speech referred to the concessions of export tax reliefs. A particular type of industry I would like to see developing in my own area, for example, is a small industry with maybe not a very great potential for export. That type of industry should get further relief from the the Revenue Commissioners.

To me, the most important single problem facing the Minister and the Government at the present time is unemployment. Neither the Minister nor the Government should forget this.

There should be some mechanism which would keep the Government and the Opposition thinking all the time that this is a serious economic and social problem, a problem that demands everybody's ingenuity to solve. It is also a problem which is fraught with danger. When I made that comment here two years ago there were sniggers from a member of the Cabinet—not the Minister for Finance or the Minister for Foreign Affairs—when I said that there was a danger having a number of educated people doing nothing.

I have spent most of my life with young people, and the Minister for Foreign Affairs was right when he said that the tendency to want to emigrate is less than it was. I am delighted that that is so. As most of my schoolchildren have had to emigrate, I know a good deal about this. Indeed, I emigrated for a short time myself. I hope the young people will stand their ground and let themselves be heard in society, by Government and Opposition and by everyone who is charged with public responsibility. I cannot think of a mechanism, unless it were to reduce the salaries of TDs, administrators and so on, if the numbers of unemployed went beyond a certain figure. We need something to keep this position in our minds all the time.

I had the privilege of visiting a far eastern country just over a year ago. To an aggravated extent this kind of problem existed there. Of course, they had a much higher population than we had. It was the most literate country in Asia and the inevitable happened: there was a teenage revolution. Thousands of young people were shot by a Government which contained a number of strong leftwing. Ministers—men who thought that that was the best ideology to apply to the social problems of their country. I do not want to be a prophet of doom but I hope the young people will stay and let everyone in this House know that we are letting them down by not providing them with the opportunity of staying and making a living here. That idea is implanted in my mind to such an extent that it is a neurosis, and I wish everybody here felt the same about it.

The Minister for Finance is limited in the amount of manipulation he can do to create productive employment. The Minister for Labour told me that a survey of school leavers who did not have jobs was being conducted. Is that right? Can the Minister tell me anything about it?

Yes, but the extent and the nature of the survey I cannot tell.

I have an idea that it is a comprehensive survey for the country.

We could all bend our minds to thinking of ways in which young people could be gainfully employed. Even for a short time, they could be used to take a census. This would be useful to the Government, this House, the socialists and the economists. I was at the annual general meeting of the National Library Association and there I heard about a cataloguing job that had been done by the prisoners at Portlaoise prison. This drew a protest from a prison rights man later.

There is a great deal of work to be done in the National Library. I realise that space might be the problem there, but I am sure reliable people could take that work home with them. There are plenty of opportunities in the field of archaeology, indexing of newspapers, cataloguing of archives in county towns and so on. This work is worthwhile for the country and would give jobs for a time to young people who are now unemployed.

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 3rd February, 1976.
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