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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 4 Mar 1976

Vol. 288 No. 9

Financial Resolutions, 1976. - Financial Resolution No. 11 : General (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.—(An Taoiseach).

(Dublin Central): Before lunch I was discussing the present situation of the economy. I said that a lot of the crisis arose when the present Government came into office. They failed to realise at that time the serious economic situation the world was moving into. They came to office making commitments on a 14-point plan without properly researching how they were to be financed. We know the dangers of over-commitment, whether in business or our private lives. The present Government made these commitments on a 14-point plan, some of them extravagant commitments, especially in the economy in which we find ourselves. They failed to look at the whole economic structure of the world and of this country at that time. They failed dismally to consider what the full consequences of the oil crisis would be. Instead they looked at their commitments and said “We are going to keep our commitments”.

That is something that might be justifiable in a strong economic unit, but it has been proved now that the decisions which they took, first as regards deficit budgeting and, secondly, certain types of policy which they adopted were wrong. Our economic base was steadily expanding, and had been during the 1960s and into 1970. We were expanding our economic base, and that is what matters if we are to create employment. What was urgently needed at that time, and indeed when Fianna Fáil was in office, was a continuation of foreign investment into industry, an encouragement of finance, irrespective of whether it was generated within our own economy or had to be borrowed from abroad. I have never during my time in the Dáil criticised the borrowing that went into commercial or capital development. Capital development is essential. This country as regards its development, whether it be our roads, telephones, ports, is in urgent need of an injection of capital. The climate was set at that time, and it took a considerable length of time to get that climate established. It started under Seán Lemass and Ken Whitaker, the man who left the Central Bank yesterday. That proper climate was established in the 1960s and continued into the 1970s until we left office.

The present Government failed first to look at the underlying problems, or some of the problems that were prevalent in Europe at that time. Secondly, trying to pursue a socialistic policy in an open economy such as ours was fatal. They introduced Bills of a capital taxation nature, their second bad mistake. These Bills, especially the Wealth Tax Bill, which we opposed, were not conducive to encouraging capital into this country. In the future if our economy is properly built up and our economic base properly strengthened with necessary finance, I would say there would be some justification for these capital taxations. However, shortly after coming into office they set their minds as to how they could introduce this capital taxation package. The amount of revenue accruing to the Exchequer from this entire package is infinitesimal in comparison with the total budget.

But it is not the small amount of money coming into the Exchequer that is the big loss. It is that it has undermined confidence, first in the private sector and has undermined confidence abroad as regards the inflow of capital. In effect, that capital taxation brought very little revenue into the Exchequer this coming year. I have not got figures from the Minister for Finance, but I am sure the wealth tax will not account for £3 million to £4 million of the total current budget. It inhibited the inflow of capital which was urgently needed to expand our economic base. It encouraged the outflow of capital. This has been denied by the Minister, but I am convinced that it encouraged the outflow of capital which could be utilised today.

Furthermore, it created a climate amongst business people that was alien and repugnant to their advancement. We see today that all confidence has been undermined in the private sector, and it is that sector that has suffered over the past three years. We must concentrate our attention in the future on the private sector, for it is in this sector that we are going to get economic expansion. The public sector plays an important part as regards employment and very necessary it is, but if we want to get this country out of its present economic situation we will have to pay far more attention to the private sector. Over the past three years the private sector has been a target for undue taxation and we are reaping the results now. How could we possibly hope to continue especially with our huge current deficit. In 1972-73 there was a deficit on the current budget of £5 million. In the present year, to the end of 1976 on the Minister's figures our current deficit will be in the region of £327 million. We know that will not be a real figure by 31st December next. Even if there is a pay pause—and I hope there will be—we know the underlying expenses which will arise on fuel, telephones and various other factors such as expenses underlying the last wage agreements which I believe have not been taken fully into consideration. All these underlying costs must show up before the end of this year and therefore the Minister's figure of £327 million is not realistic. It could easily be £450 million when all the expenses that will have to be met are taken into account. This kind of current deficit is one of our chief problems.

The Government should never have allowed the finances of the country to reach this appalling state. We have a huge national debt; our tax base is diminishing while our expenditure is increasing. Obviously, this trend cannot continue. It could not continue in any business and much less where the Government are concerned and the day of reckoning must arrive. To a great extent the day of reckoning has arrived when we see restrictions being placed by EEC countries on borrowing, spelling out what they will expect in the future. Obviously, guidelines and restrictions will be laid down in regard to foreign borrowing in future and we will find that money spent in the past four years to the tune of about £650 million to finance current deficits—a large part of which should have gone into productive assets to generate wealth and create employment—has been misspent because of bad budgetary methods.

When the upturn which has already taken place in some European countries and in America and Japan comes we will find ourselves in the position where opportunities will exist but we shall have no finances to avail of them. We have expanded our credit. If we had built up a proper credit base abroad, when the economic upswing comes we could go to the European Bank or the World Bank and ask for £400 million or £500 million to invest in industry or to develop our ports or our mineral wealth. Unfortunately, if the occasion should arise this year or next year we will be unable to get that kind of capital; we have increased our borrowing too much; that is the whole trouble.

In 1973 our national debt was £1,298 million; by 31st December, 1976 the estimated national debt will have reached £3,200 million. These are startling figures. I would not mind if on the other side of the sheet we had investment to show for this money— that is what matters. I do not say that all this expenditure has gone on current budgeting but a large part of it has and there is very little in the way of tangible assets for the astronomic rise from £1,298 million to £3,200 million. Where are the tangible assets within the economy? There is a downturn in our industrial output which happened last year and there is every indication that it will continue this year for various reasons. We have a continuing unemployment problem. That is the situation we have reached after indulging in huge excessive borrowing.

This is a situation about which we should all be concerned. I am not concerned about the Government but about every human being in the country and about his or her standard of living in the next two or three years. The Government failed to take unpopular decisions; they took wrong decisions. They made commitments which, to put it bluntly, the country could not afford. For years past we have been comparing standards with those of advanced European countries. We are looking at the golden triangle where they have had wealth for the past 200 years, looking at the advanced economies of Germany and other countries and telling ourselves that we must have the same standards here. But we must cut our cloth according to the measure. We are living in Ireland and we can only get the standard of living that the wealth of this country can give.

The Government failed to realise that sound budgetary policies would automatically dictate this. They have failed to run the country exactly as a business should be run. I could make some concession for a slight deficit in the current budget over the last six years but I could make no excuse for the Government having spent £678 million in the current budget over the past three years. This is money which was not generated within the economy. This is bound to have a detrimental effect on the private sector and on economic expansion.

We had a capital taxation packet, which took almost 12 months to process through this House. This was completely unnecessary at this time. No matter how socially undesirable it was the Government should have looked at the realities of the situation to see what the consequences would be of a capital taxation packet such as that introduced by the Minister for Finance. It did nothing for the economy. I would say it was justified if it had helped the Exchequer by £50 million to £60 million. It will help the Exchequer very little. It has completely demoralised confidence in the private sector. Therefore, we will see the futility of the crazy taxation package of the Minister for Finance.

The Minister for Finance and the Cabinet failed to grasp what the significance of the oil crisis would be. It was quite obvious that there was a certain movement of wealth from the west to the east. We know the eastern countries are expanding their economies, building their whole infrastructure and naturally doing it at the expense of the west. Where else would the money come from? The Minister for Finance, as well as many people in the country, failed to grasp the significance of that. I doubt if the west will ever be as wealthy again. The Government did not seem to take that factor into consideration.

The Government did not try to find out where they could cut down expenditure. They went in the opposite direction and increased expenditure, most of which came from the private sector. There has been a downward trend, as we have seen, over the past three years. Until we regain the competitiveness which we enjoyed we have no hope of expanding our economic base. If our unit costs do not get into line we have lost the attractiveness for our manufactured goods which we enjoyed over the past ten years.

During the past few years inflation has been running at between 20 to 25 per cent. It was quite obvious during that time that we were losing our attractiveness in relation to our exports. The Government will have to consider doing something about that. I believe England are ahead of us. During the past 12 months England, to a certain degree, has controlled its expenditure by voluntary means. When the British people accepted a semi pay pause of around £6 that was the first step Britain took towards getting out of the economic chaos the country was in. Britain has now enjoyed almost 12 months of this package, the £6 wages increase across the board. That was a remarkable reduction from what the country experienced in the previous three years. This low wage increase is bound to show up to their advantage during the next two years. It is bound to put their manufactured goods on a competitive basis again in relation to their exports to Europe and the world.

We have not reached that stage yet. Our unit costs are still rising. Unless we take some positive steps towards bringing this into a realistic line I believe there will be no attractiveness here for our products. The majority of manufacturers are operating on a very low margin. Any man with £500,000 would be very foolish if he invested it in a manufacturing industry. I am not saying this in order to frighten away capital from manufacturers but to impress on the Minister that unless something is done about increasing the profitability of the manufacturer and that it is recognised that profits are necessary if we want to expand our industrial base we cannot succeed.

Unit costs have gone completely out of hand over the last three years. The price of electricity has gone out of all proportion in ratio to the cost. All these factors have had a detrimental effect on manufactured goods. The Minister said he gave a concession to manufacturers in relation to the retention of stocks. I believe it amounted to £7 million but I dispute that the Minister gave anything to manufacturers and business people generally as regards a help to taxation. On paper it looks like it but the Minister is deceptive.

I asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Welfare on several occasions about the pay-related benefit scheme. I believe the Minister is getting £10 million too much a year from this scheme. This fund has carried a surplus over the past two years. The employers' contribution is 2 per cent which is a very substantial amount if a manufacturer is employing 200 or 300 people. If the Minister was concerned this year to try to help manufacturers he should have looked at the pay-related benefit scheme and if it was in excess of the requirements he should have reviewed it immediately. I believe if he did there would be a downward trend in contributions.

The Minister could also have taken a look at the contributions. We should all be concerned with the industrial arm, whether that be products from agriculture, our own mineral resources or raw materials which are imported. Our whole future lies in the manufacturing base to try to generate more employment. There was nothing in the budget to help this sector of the economy. In fact there was nothing in the budget to rectify the economic situation at all. It was an exercise in bookkeeping, as to how you could balance income against outgoings. It contained nothing else apart from that. Reading through the budget speech there is nothing tangible to show there will be an upturn in the economy.

I wonder is the Minister aware of the circumstances of those people. He knows the experience they had last year. He is aware of the huge number of redundancies in this sector. These redundancies took place for a reason. The units in which they were working were no longer viable and could not operate. We will have to direct our attention towards this. Last week I was in Edenderry and I saw advance factories lying idle. Some time previously I saw advance factories lying idle in Ballinrobe. I am not sure how many advance factories are closed throughout the country. Money was either borrowed and given to the IDA, or generated at home. This is capital which must be serviced. Unless we succeed in getting people to occupy these advance factories, there is no hope of reducing the present unemployment level.

Why are there no takers for these factories? Last year the Industrial Credit Corporation had £4 million which they could not lend. That is most unusual and very significant. There is no shortage of money in the Associated Banks today. If proper proposals are put forward, the Associated Banks are quite willing to help the industrial sector. Why is no one looking for this money? There must be a reason. I know there is a world recession, but there must be other reasons.

All the world banks are full of liquidity at the moment.

(Dublin Central): The Minister knows as well as I do that the Associated Banks have money to lend.

Similar to the banks abroad.

(Dublin Central): I am talking about the Irish banks. Let us forget about the banks abroad for a second.

The Deputy is making a comparison.

(Dublin Central): The capital is available.

Confidence is the problem.

(Dublin Central): A substantial amount of money is given to the IDA. I am not sure that that money will be taken up. I would prefer to see the money the Associated Banks have being channelled into industry rather than capital being borrowed at a high rate from the European Community or other banks abroad. These are factors we have not taken into consideration.

Last December we had 110,000 or 112,000 people unemployed. Our industrial output was gradually declining. I looked forward to something in the budget to rectify that situation, something which would charter the course ahead for the next two or three years. I wondered what the Minister had in mind with regard to policy planning, and what our objectives were. I thought he would set down guidelines as to how we would attain those objectives. If we did not attain them, at least we would have objectives to work for. In any business you must charter the course ahead for the year. You must see what your wage bill will be, how much you can spend on overheads and decoration, and how much you can take out of it yourself. That is planning in a very miniature way. I expected something from the Minister to show us exactly where we are going. No guidelines are set down as to how the capital budget will be spent. Are we to struggle on in a haphazard type of way with the industrial sector being weakened further? Are we to have another huge current budget? That is where we will find ourselves at the end of this year.

In the budget the Minister expects to get £67 million from beer, spirits and tobacco. Next January the Minister has no hope of getting revenue from that sector. Revised projections have been made by brewers and distillers. All good business organisations make their projections around the end of December for the coming year. Projections have to be made because certain types of materials have to be ordered. All these projections have been revised downwards by from 15 per cent to 25 per cent. The motoring industry revised their projections for 1976. They have to show their projections to companies manufacturing ancillary parts. In the motoring industry there was a drop of from 17 per cent to 18 per cent over the past two years. Their estimate is down by 15 per cent in 1976 as against 1975. These are the realities.

We have to look at the distribution of money into the economy. Last year in the public sector the flow from increased wages and salaries was something in the region of 40 per cent. In the private sector it was about 25 per cent. Despite those two factors, there was a slight drop in retail sales. There will not be the same flow of money in the coming year. If the Minister is to get his desired pay pause is it not plain that there must be a drop in retail sales? I cannot see how that can be avoided. We must look at the reality of where the Minister went for taxation this year and how he hopes to achieve it. He has reached the point of diminishing returns.

The Minister should have foreseen this situation two or three years ago when he was running a deficit in the budget in those years of £92 million, £259 million and £327 million. That is where the problem lies. If he had stimulated the economy at that time he would have a wider tax base today but he failed to do that. Now the tax base has been diminished and it will show up where those taxations are concerned. So far as brewers, distillers and the motor trade are concerned, they have revised their projections and in some cases the reduction has been 20 per cent.

The Minister has gone through the income tax code in an effort to scrape the bottom of the barrel. There must have been a considerable amount of money around when we left office. The economy was in a solvent state when the Government took over, but, unfortunately, all that money has now been exhausted. The public service is being brought into line; Schedule D has been brought forward and every conceivable avenue of taxation has been explored. Yet, in spite of all this we have a current budget of practically £350 million.

Against this background we must view the economy and the serious state it is in. It is obvious that tourism has suffered severely in the last five or six years; I am not saying that the fall-off in that industry has been the fault of the Government because I realise the Northern situation has contributed substantially in this area. However, the kind of tax now imposed on luxuries will not help the industry. I believe that the attraction of Spain or Portugal as holiday areas is lessening and we should try to capitalise on this. In this connection it is essential that we keep our prices competitive and attractive to visitors but in spite of this the Minister has imposed a 10 per cent VAT on car hire and this will not encourage tourists. The rental of cars is expensive and the petrol increase in the recent budget will do nothing to help. It is obvious that it will be very expensive for visitors to have a touring holiday in Ireland.

We should direct out attention towards stimulating the economy. It is obvious that we cannot keep going without a proper economic plan but there is no plan. The future could be very bright but it is essential that we have a plan. We have one of the finest ore mines in western Europe——

The Tánaiste has a plan. Perhaps he would tell us about his Portrane plan? We read about it in the newspapers.

The Deputy should not believe everything he reads in the newspapers, even about Fianna Fáil.

He has an obligation to tell the country about his plan.

(Dublin Central): We have been drifting aimlessly for the last three or four years but this cannot continue. At a time of crisis it is necessary to keep a tight rein on matters but a plan is essential. In Tara we have one of the finest mines in western Europe. The Government have now made a decision about a smelter and that is a step in the right direction. However, that decision should have been taken three years ago. All of us know how long it will be before the smelter is in operation. We know the problems that will arise with regard to the siting of the project; there have been problems throughout the country with regard to the siting of industries and we are all familiar with the long process that is involved. The Government could have made a decision with regard to the smelter two or three years ago.

All of us hope that oil and gas will be flowing in a few years time. We should decide now how to obtain the maximum amount of employment in these projects. Norway is a small country but it is very advanced with regard to the building of equipment for exploration of gas and oil. They are self-supporting with regard to the building of rigs and now they are in the export market but it is likely that any equipment required to bring our mineral wealth onshore will have to be imported. We may well ask if the Government have carried out any research in the last two or three years to see if it would be possible to build the equipment here. This in an important question because in future years we will have to look to some of our mineral resources. For too long we have been depending on the importation of raw materials; we have manufactured and re-exported and this is a costly business. We will have to examine the infrastructure with regard to roads and the telephone service. We have the worst telephone system in western Europe——

And the worst Minister.

(Dublin Central): We have only 14 telephones for every 100 persons. France is supposed to have the worst telephone system on the Continent but they have twice that number and the advanced countries in Europe have 30 or 40 telephones for every 100 persons. We must also give consideration to the fishing industry and its potential. Two-thirds of the world is under water and it has been proved that there is a considerable amount of mineral wealth in the sea. Some guidelines will have to be laid down with regard to fishing around our coasts and our future plans in this area. I am not saying we should have a complete policy overnight on fishing but some research should be carried out.

These are matters the Government should have been considering in the last few years but it is obvious they have neglected to do this. It is not enough to issue a Green Paper, a discussion document, after three years. That is not good enough. At this stage all these matters should have been researched and examined. The Government are thinking of issuing a Green Paper but it is obvious that no definite proposals will emerge for many years.

So long as it is not a red paper.

(Dublin Central): There have been so many papers and discussion documents issued by so-called economists and columnists in the past three years, giving projections and revised projections——

Has the Deputy no respect for them?

(Dublin Central): There are some very good economists, one of whom I know personally, but the others——

Of course the best is the person who speaks with hindsight and we have a lot of those—a £30 million cut in social welfare and a 10 per cent cut in the public sector pay.

(Dublin Central): No one in Fianna Fáil would allow that to happen.

No Member of this House ever said that.

Deputy Fitzpatrick thinks that man is right.

(Dublin Central): I am talking about economics and budget financing and the effects of all these papers that we have had in the last three years. We had the Minister for Foreign Affairs writing a weekly article in The Irish Times. Some of the articles were enlightening but others were of the kind that is demonstrated in this budget. Deficit budgeting can be a serious thing if you get too deeply into it. I would prefer to advance slowly and steadily, but what we have had is a stop-go policy, giving one day and taking away the next. That is soul destroying. What should have happened in regard to social welfare was a steady advance in line with our economic resources. We should never have embarked on the type of budgeting demonstrated this year, relying on future hopes of an upturn in the economy and probably some wealth from mineral resources. That is a very dangerous method. The capital will not be available for capital development which will be so necessary in the next five or six years, and the unfortunate result will be that our mineral resources will fall into the hands of foreign capitalists because we will not have the capital with which to take our share. This was demonstrated last week when the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Keating, spoke on Radio Éireann about the building of a smelter which would cost £50 million but how difficult it would be for us to find that capital.

In private business I have seen people go broke because they did not watch their borrowing, and people who study the financial pages will note the effect of heavy borrowing on this country. Heavy borrowing by a Government will eventually bring down the standards of the people, particularly the weaker section. One intangible but vital thing that is missing at the moment is confidence. When there is lack of confidence the whole morale and spirit of the people deteriorate and I doubt if the Government can restore people's confidence because they began on the wrong track three years ago. They committed themselves to a 14-point plan and embarked on the ludicrous policy of deficit budgeting. Now confidence has been completely eroded. It is well known that the biggest growth comes from the private sector and unless the Minister and the Government make up their minds to take a close look at this sector and increase the amount of profitability there in order to help it develop and expand, there can be no confidence.

I do not believe the Government can do this. When Fianna Fáil get back to power it will be left to us to restore that confidence which has been absent in the past three years. We will put down guidelines and though it may mean sacrifices I am convinced the people will respond generously.

I will begin by dealing with the last point made by Deputy Fitzpatrick. He suggested that Fianna Fáil would have a national economic and social plan which, he said, would put this country back on its feet again. This was one of the few references we had to a national social and economic plan by the Fianna Fáil Party for many years. Frankly, I think they are ashamed to talk about the national social and economic plans they produced. I think they made three attempts at such plans. Nothing came from them despite all the high-sounding projections for employment, increasing social welfare, capital for agriculture and industry and so on. Only last night it came to my notice through a student in one of the universities here that these plans are not even being sold as antiques now. I am informed that the three national social and economic plans of the Fianna Fáil Party are being offered in one of these colleges at ninepence and, for ninepence, they are not even being taken up. That is about the value they had. It demonstrates the success of the planning done by Fianna Fáil.

(Dublin Central): When we publish our next one it will be taken up.

There is always the next time for Fianna Fáil. What I should like to put on record now are some comments with regard to the Department of Health. I had a limited time last night and could not, therefore, make the comments I wanted to or refute the allegations that had been made. There are certain members of the Fianna Fáil Party who were outspoken and honest. I refer in particular to Deputy Seán Flanagan who wanted an assessment of the expenditure where health is concerned and of the value given as a result of that expenditure. However, there is a concerted and deliberate effort by certain members of Fianna Fáil to make statements not alone to scare but in many cases to cause actual panic. There have been wild and malicious allegations of a political nature designed to do nothing else but to undermine the Government and the health services.

I described in detail last night the progress made as far as the money devoted to health is concerned, as far as real improvements are concerned and the increase in health expenditure related to gross national product. Despite all that this campaign is still going on. I noticed in The Irish Independent this morning certain allegations, allegations which have, of course, no foundation whatsoever. Whether these allegations are designed to influence thinking in the health boards, particularly the Eastern Health Board, I do not know but they are certainly being deliberately tailored for the purpose of scaring people and creating panic. I understand the Eastern Health Board intend to refute these allegations, but I would like to put something on the record in regard to them.

It was alleged that St. Loman's Hospital was to close down. This is certainly extravagant and I do not think anybody in his sane senses would see any merit in closing down St. Loman's or in having its functions diminished. There is no such plan but alleged spokesmen in the professions and alleged spokesmen who are members of health boards continue to spread that sort of rumour. Mark you, rumour is very hard to retract. There are also petty suggestions made that the tobacco and cigarette allowance, for example, are going to be cut. This is not true. Another mean one—one that would please certain members of the public who would be antagonistic towards me or towards this Government—is the suggestion that visits to cinemas will be affected. There is no truth in that allegation. These rumour-mongers talk about cutting down on food, reverting to the inferior diet of Victorian times. That will not happen but it is intended, without any deterioration in the meals offered to the patients, to make economies where it is seen economies should and could be made.

As far as the banning of overtime is concerned and the non-filling of vacant posts, what the board will attempt to do is what any board with the public interest at heart would do. They will ensure that only essential overtime is allowed and that only those posts which must be filled in the interests of the patients will be filled. This is normal practice where economy is concerned. There were allegations last night and the night before that taxis used for the transportation of patients would be done away with altogether. This is not true. I do not think anybody could believe I or the members of the health board were so callous as to deny transportation for people in need of care and treatment. It is recognised that in the Cork region there was abuse of this service. This abuse will be cut out but there is no intention on my part or on the part of members of the health boards to engage in the alleged penny-pinching exercise we heard about last night.

We had an emotional description last night from Deputy Haughey and Deputy John O'Leary of old people being thrown out of some of the county homes and geriatric institutions. There is no truth in that allegation and I would like members of the Opposition who make these wild allegations to substantiate them. I have identified one particular case and it was not a question of throwing anybody out. Health boards do not do that kind of thing. Ministers do not do it. All discharges are made by the doctors and the discharge in this particular case could not be regarded as an economy because any vacancies are immediately filled by what are regarded as more deserving cases.

I heard Deputy Connolly some time ago talking about the lavish advertising by health boards. Last night he made no mention of that. He made no mention of the kind of economies he advocated when the Health Contributions Bill was being discussed here. We had wild allegations from Deputy Haughey. I do not know whether or not his heart is in the position he occupies. He may aspire to higher things, but one is surprised to hear an ex-Minister for Finance make the wild allegations he did. He made these in his concluding speech despite the fact that I had refuted the allegations specifically when I spoke just before him. Whether or not he was listening I do not know, but he did suggest the Eastern Health Board were to reduce the milk allowance for children or that the age limit was going to be reduced and I said that would not be so. It was not my intention or the intention of the Eastern Health Board to engage in such "economies". Again it was suggested by people who represent themselves as spokesmen, unidentified of course, that the school medical examination would cease. There is no truth whatsoever in it. It was also suggested by Deputy Haughey and repeated again, despite the fact that I refuted the allegation, that beds would be discontinued in three of the city hospitals. This was checked, needless to remark, by me and it was discovered, of course, that there was no intention in these hospitals to cut down bed numbers.

Without going into the details of the undoubted progress that has been made over the last three years, I want to tell the House that what I am trying to achieve is not cutbacks as far as patient care is concerned. I do not want to see cutbacks; neither, I assume, do the chief executive officers. What I am looking for is economies that can be made without interfering with the service, so that we can get down to base and resume the undoubted progress we made in 1973, 1974 and 1975.

It appears to me that as far as the various health boards and health board personnel are concerned, they look for what would be the simplest economies. It would be easy for us if we wanted to cut down our own standards to decide that we would not have lunch every second day or that we would not have an evening meal at all. The economies that have been suggested are far too simple. There are economies that can be made, such as those that have been mentioned by Deputy Seán Flanagan and by Deputy Dr. John O'Connell with regard to the usage of drugs.

We in the Department of Health have been in consultation with the chief executive officers and programme officers of the various health boards, and they are confident that the economies that are proposed can be implemented. Anybody who represents these economies as economies that will have an effect on patient care are very much wrong. I know it will be a difficult task but I am confident that, with good will, these can be achieved. There are people who do not want to effect or even to think about effecting such economies as I have mentioned.

People ought to appreciate, whether they agree with the policy of the Government or not, that 1976 will be a very difficult year as, indeed, was 1975. Everybody, whether he is Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael or Labour, will agree that we must tighten our belts, that we must have regard to the fact that it is going to be a tough year. When we call for restraint everybody agrees that there should be restraint but when it comes down to specific personnel they say, "Not us".

As I said before and as I said last night, health services have been much more progressive in the past few years than they were during the 16 years of the Fianna Fáil Government. Deputy Haughey had a nerve last night when he talked about a cutback in the health services to the degree he said there would be, when he who was Minister for Finance was so niggardly towards the Department of Health and when there was no real increase in moneys during his four-year period as Minister for Finance. It was 3.2 per cent in the first year; 3.2 per cent in the second year; 3.2 per cent in the third year; and 3.4 in his last year of office as Minister for Finance. I do not remember if that was the year he fell off the horse and when the Taoiseach had to deliver his budget statement for him. Whether there was any significance in the fact that Deputy Lynch was more generous than Deputy Haughey in the previous three years, I do not know, but that was the extent of the increases given by Deputy Haughey when he was Minister for Finance.

I am sure there will be many more rumours and scares and much more malicious propaganda by members of the Fianna Fáil Party, but this does no good for the country or for the health services, because people get scared, particularly old people. We have, as I have said, improved these services and we are merely asking for a standstill, but the services provided in 1975 will continue to be provided in 1976. We can, I hope, in 1977 and the years after that continue with the improvements we made in 1973, 1974 and 1975.

Objections have been made to the amounts spent and there are queries whether or not we are getting value for this. As I promised last night, the health boards will be advised that they should establish finance committees so that they will be in full possession of the facts. This will be done fairly soon to enable them make a real assessment and examination.

It should be remembered also that nearly 100 per cent of health expenditure falls on the Exchequer, and, of course, as Deputy Haughey knows, when a Minister for Finance gets estimates from the various Departments he does not necessarily give them the full amount just like that. He has to scrutinise them and invariably there are some reductions. Again we find the Opposition complaining about expenditure, overborrowing big deficits and taxation. These are the people who, even now and over the past three years, have been demanding more services, demanding the creation of more posts, demanding even greater improvements than we have given over the last three years.

The Tánaiste was always doing it when he was in opposition.

Therefore, I would ask people to discount what they read in the newspapers from people who describe themselves as spokesmen. I have no respect whatever for anybody who is reported in the newspaper and described as a spokesman. If he is prepared to stand by the allegation he makes he should also have the manliness and the courage to give his name so that the allegation he makes can be closely examined.

On the general question of the economy and on the budget, from the speeches of Fianna Fáil you would imagine this country could do things in isolation, with no regard whatever to the undoubted effects on this economy of what is happening particularly in the EEC countries and in many other countries in the world. They seem to believe we are back in the era when their Leader, now dead, Lord have mercy on him, believed that we could have a hairshirt policy, that we could drink light beer instead of tea, and so on. We are not in that era any more because we are now in the EEC. We are in the EEC because Fianna Fáil wanted us to be in the EEC, because Fine Gael wanted us to be in the EEC, and we, as a Labour Party, are in it because we accept the majority decision of the people who voted about 80 per cent to 84 per cent in favour of entry.

(Interruptions.)

If Fianna Fáil had their way there would be no taxation this year, no borrowing, or no deficit, and in consequence of that there would be no social welfare.

Debate adjourned.
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