asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he is aware that women married in this country whose husbands have deserted them, divorced them in England, remarried and subsequently died, are not classed as legal widows in this country and that the only entitlement available to them is the deserted wife's allowance; the action he intends taking; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Deserted Wives.
5.
As is clear from my reply to Deputy Cronin's question of 2nd March, 1976, I am aware that the position is as stated by the Deputy.
As I explained previously, the legal advice available to my Department has always been to the effect that a divorce properly obtained by a person domiciled in another jurisdiction must be recognised as valid in this country.
Continuation of payments under the schemes of deserted wife's allowance and deserted wife's benefit after the deaths of deserting husbands ensures to the women concerned an income from my Department equivalent to that which they might obtain as widows. This is a significant improvement on the position which existed prior to the introduction of these schemes.
The problem of divorce is a complex one which affects matters other than widow's pensions—for example, the validity of subsequent marriages, devolution of property et cetera. The Minister for Social Welfare has always been guided by the general law of the country as interpreted by the Attorney General and the Courts. If there should be a change in that law or in its interpretation I will give effect to such change in relation to widows' pensions, but action to bring about a change would not be a matter for my Department.
The Minister referred to the devolution of the deceased husband's property. As I understand it, a widow domiciled in Ireland cannot benefit under the will made by the husband. Is that not the position? Effectively the Irish widow cannot remarry, even if she so desires, having regard to the effect of the 1937 Constitution and effectively this country does not give her any legal identity whatsoever in the circumstances.
I am awaiting a question from the Deputy.
Would the Minister tell us what action the Government contemplate taking to do away with this very serious and upsetting anomaly? The Minister will agree that the Irish widows are not responsible for the actions of their husbands in leaving them and going to another jurisdiction and it seems very unfair that they should suffer as a result of an action——
Order. The Deputy may not proceed to make a speech under the guise of asking a question.
It is a speech I would like to make at considerable length and I am doing my best.
It may not be made now. This is Question Time.
I think the Minister would agree that, in addition to the anomaly relating to the widow, if the widow has children there is also an anomaly there.
I am concerned only with a deserted wife's entitlement to social welfare and I would not be prepared in present circumstances or as Minister for Social Welfare to reply to the very many points made by the Deputy with regard to the position generally.
Surely the Minister will, as deputy political leader of the country, accept collective responsibility for the invidious and serious situation these women, who lack a legal identity, find themselves in. Surely the Minister would tell the House, arising out of what he has said, what action he and his Government intend taking in this whole area.
I would suggest the Deputy put down a question on all these points. The question is directed towards the entitlement of women whose husbands have obtained divorces in another country.
Does the Minister not recognise that what we are concerned with in this question is the entitlement of this very limited group of people to social welfare benefits and does he not further recognise that we are not here concerned with any complicated legal questions of their exact standing before the law and would he admit that, if he wished to do so, he could simply make a ministerial regulation making these particular benefits available to this category of persons, if so minded, without regard to any complicated legal question?
I do not know whether the Deputy has read the question or listened to the reply. I have been asked what is the position of these people and what their entitlement is. They are still entitled to a deserted wife's allowance, which is the very same amount as a widow's non-contributory allowance, to which they would ordinarily be entitled if there was no divorce at all.
There are other aspects to this matter. Would the Minister give me a straightforward answer to this simple question? If he wished to bring this limited category of persons into entitlement for benefits which widows have, he could do that by simple ministerial regulation under the Social Welfare Act without regard to any other legal difficulties or complications.
But there is no need to do that. They get deserted wives' allowances and the deserted wife's allowance is the same amount as they would get by way of widow's noncontributory pension.
There is more involved than that.
There may be, but it is not a matter for Social Welfare.
There is more involved in Social Welfare.
If the Minister looks at my question, to follow up what Deputy Haughey has said, I have said that these particular women——
A question, please.
——are not classed as legal widows. That is the first part of the question. Surely that deserves an answer. What action do the Government intend taking to ensure these people be given legality—in other words, recognised as widows—arising out of a situation for which they have no responsibility and for which the Government in the circumstances appear to be avoiding responsibility and the second part of the question, of course, relates——
I have allowed the Deputy a great deal of latitude. I am passing on to the next question.
I am in no way suggesting widows are not entitled to the payment of deserted wives' allowances.
We cannot debate this matter.
What I am asking is that these widows be given legal recognition and what action do the Government intend to take to bring that about.
They give them recognition as far as payment of an allowance is concerned. The position the Deputy describes obtained up to 1974 and it was changed in 1974 to make sure they would get some sort of allowance. Up to 1974 they would not get anything.
Question No. 6.
I see the Minister for Foreign Affairs in the House. I wonder would the Minister for Foreign Affairs help as the Minister for Social Welfare does not appear to be able to do so.
I have called the next question.