Vol. 291 No. 14
I move:
That a sum not exceeding £2,197,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1976, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice, and of certain other services administered by that Office, and of the Public Record Office, and of the Keeper of State Papers and for the purchase of historical documents, etc.
It is regrettable that there should be a time limit on what I regard as one of the most important discussions that could take place here, the debate on the Estimate for the Department of Justice. It is more regrettable in view of the fact that on several occasions in the past months the business of the Dáil collapsed or the House had to be adjourned because of lack of business ordered by the Government. We had a full week's adjournment only recently and this was uncalled for even if this was related to by-elections. I believe the Dáil should have continued.
I think that week was well spent.
Possibly, but not from the Fine Gael Party point of view. The Minister will readily agree that they did not do very well that week.
I disagree with the Deputy.
Let us be serious on that for a second. That week could have been more gainfully used in this House if the time had been made available to us to discuss important Estimates. I am aware that I only have about ten minutes at my disposal to discuss this important Estimate and, naturally, I can only skim over a small number of points.
I should like to assure the Minister that there is now wholesale and general acceptance of the fact that the Government have failed very badly to protect people and their property. The Minister for Justice, and the Government, stand accused, and rightly so, of gross negligence and total failure in the maintenance of law and order throughout the State. It is now a fact that armed gangs of hooligans can at will successfully hold up or rob banks, post offices, shops or trains. Instead of making crime more difficult for these people, unfortunately, the situation is the reverse. The situation is ludicrous in the extreme in that the Government for penny-pinching economy reasons withdrew normal Garda protection, withdrew gardaí who would be on duty to protect property and act as a deterrent to those would-be robbers.
The Minister, and the Government, in an effort to save a few hundred pounds, allowed situations to develop where millions of pounds were taken with the minimum of effort. On one occasion in this House the Minister refused to say why gardaí were withdrawn from a train that was carrying a large quantity of money. The Minister at that time hid behind the fact that it would be wrong to disclose any information on security precautions. As time went on he saw that there was no security whatsoever. If the Minister and the Government believe that they could save one hundred pounds or so by refusing to pay the wages of a number of gardaí whose presence on trains would be invaluable, they have the wrong attitude. By saving a couple of hundred pounds they allow would-be robbers access to huge sums of money. Unfortunately, practically all of this money is being used for subversive purposes. If this is Government logic or Government thinking, the whole situation is crazy and farcical in the extreme. It is very curious that a Government who pride themselves in their capacity for the maintenance of law and order should preside over the greatest spate of armed robberies the country has ever seen.
Crime is rampant in Dublin city and the country at large. This is also the view of the general public and of the Garda Síochána. People are terrified, particularly the old, the infirm and those living alone. Unfortunately, many areas of our capital city are nogo areas because policing is practically non-existent. Homes, offices, shops and garages are broken into at will. Indeed, the owners and occupants are being seriously molested or injured. Policing is practically non-existent.
The garda on the beat has, for all practical purposes, been withdrawn. We were all accustomed to seeing the garda on the beat and he rendered a valuable service but he is now a rare sight because of false Government economies. Unfortunately, the Garda tell that the squad cars are grounded and that they do not patrol as they should. This again is because of false economies. Naturally, the absence of patrol cars and police crews in them leaves the public unprotected. Those gardaí who might be on hand to protect people and prevent crime are left unprotected and not given the backup service that is required if they are to successfully carry out their duty.
It is said by the Garda that crime is not properly investigated and that the follow up is not as successful as it should be. In recent times, the Garda say, unfortunately, the criminal is winning and the Garda and the public are losing. That is a most serious statement and it is contained in the editorial of the present issue of the Garda Review. I have a question on the Order Paper about this but it is doubtful, because of the number of questions on the Order Paper, that I will get the opportunity of raising it. It is a very serious and damning statement. It is tragic that the Minister still tries to play down the level of violence and criminality throughout the country. The Garda say they have become gravely disillusioned with the attitude of the Government and the Minister. They feel that the Government and the Minister are hiding their heads in the sand in the hope that everything will right itself in time.
This is unbelievably sad and tragic. We have the situation where the Garda say that the criminal de facto rules our streets and our countryside. They also say that the morale of a once proud force lies battered. They are terribly serious charges and are ones we must pay heed to. If they were charges or utterances by people other than those who purport to speak for the Garda they would not have the same importance as they have when they appear in an editorial in the Garda Review. They must be listened to and we must have action to rectify the situation. The armed robber, the mugger, the burglar, the thief and the rapist, unfortunately, know that our streets are not being policed as they should be. Unfortunately, they also know that our countryside is wide open because Garda patrols are a rarity. Many parents are asking if their children are safe going to and coming from school and if they are safe while playing.
Certainly, old people in the cities and those living in isolated areas are the ready victims of these thugs whenever they wish to call upon them. The Minister has been asked to walk through O'Connell Street in Dublin some night alone after dark and if he accepts this invitation I should like to accompany him in the hope that the reality of the situation would be seen, understood and appreciated by him. It is a very grave situation. I know that if the Minister could see it for himself, if he could see it as it is seen by those whose job it is to see it, he would act quickly and actively on this problem.
I know that the Minister will again say that we have more gardaí than ever before and that more money is being spent than ever before in an effort to maintain law and order. I know that our efforts against the subversives must be maintained and improved. The Minister knows that he has the backing of this House and the nation in this regard, as had his predecessor, Deputy O'Malley.
With regard to ordinary crime, the public now accept that ordinary crime is often uninvestigated. If this is so, preventive policing is a thing of the past. Recently, the Minister mentioned that the Government had decided to increase the force by 500 men. The Minister may be assured that the public would willingly pay their taxes for proper protection. Indeed, the public would willingly give more if they were satisfied that the money was being spent on proper policing. There would not be any criticism from this side of the House if the Minister said that he intended recruiting 1,000 instead of 500. If the Minister and the Government have decided to take on 500 recruits, how long will it take before they are working on the streets? The training capacity for recruits is less than 200 in every 20 weeks. If the Minister is serious, and if the Government are backing him, I hope that he will recruit these people as quickly as possible and make other arrangements to train them. There is no shortage of manpower. Thousands of young people are walking the streets, young people who would gladly give service to the nation by joining the Garda Síochána.
It was mentioned that 3,500 young people are on a waiting list for entry to the Garda Síochána. I am open to correction on that figure but the supply in this instance is certainly greater than the demand. Our policing could be better if our policemen were allowed to do more work than they are doing at present. I would be the first to say to the Minister that overtime must be kept under control. I would be the first to say: "Be careful. Do not let it get out of hand", but our police force is available and prepared to work. It is a pity they have not been allowed to combat ordinary crime.
With regard to the appointment of district justices, the Minister and the Government know the importance of appointing a man who is capable of doing the job. The Minister knows that a colleague of his in Government has sole responsibility for Gaeltacht affairs. The Minister knows that the success of his colleague in the Department of the Gaeltacht is due to the large amount of money that has been made available——
He is the first Minister for the Gaeltacht to give attention to the area. That is his success.
I could debate that for a long time with the Minister. The old nickname for the Minister for the Gaeltacht, Aire na nGealluíntí, has at last been proved true. The promises have been made but they have yet to be delivered.
We showed you up.
Do not talk about showing anyone up. Behave by keeping quiet and out of the firing line.
Deputy Collins must not make personal remarks.
The Chairman should also hear what is being said on the other side of the House. The Minister for Justice is undermining the confidence of the people in the Gaeltacht areas by appointing district justices who cannot conduct their business through the medium of Irish. It is desirable that those who operate as district justices in Gaeltacht areas should at least be able to conduct their business in Irish. I do not want to go any deeper into this point because there is a case before the courts at present and I do not want to interfere in any way with that case.
With regard to the legal aid strike, the position is the same as in the bank strike. Some people hold the view that people awaiting trial must come to trial eventually and that those who will be defending them will be paid to do so. It is fair to say that the public are suffering as a result of this strike because people awaiting trial have to be let out on bail, some of them committing further crimes. I would ask the Minister to do something positive to ensure that those who are awaiting trial can be tried. The Minister cannot be accused of not becoming involved nor can he be accused of sitting back and letting the situation drift. The situation is serious for those involved and we need more action in regard to this problem.
I hope that we shall have an opportunity, which the Government can provide for us, to discuss the Department of Justice Estimate in more detail.
I should like to put a question to the Minister. This relates to what has been said by our spokesman on Justice. How was it that the information coming to the Minister in respect of the need for additional gardaí was so distorted as to have the Minister believing that there was no need for them. I can remember putting a question in relation to my constituency where shopkeepers were unable to display goods because they had to have their windows barricaded, where schools were being subjected to vandalism every other night, where there was mugging and all the other problems to which Deputy Collins has referred. In these circumstances I asked the Minister if he would ensure that additional gardaí be made available.
He told me in reply that he had been informed that the incidence of offences and vandalism in the area was on the decrease. However, he omitted to tell me that the incidence of offences could be shown to be on the decrease by reason of there not being an adequate number of gardaí to detect them. I do not know whether it was a question of the Minister being naïve enough to accept the report given to him by the Garda officers in question but everybody else knew the position to be as I, and other Deputies in regard to their own areas, would describe it. Despite this the Minister was happy to take refuge in the report made to him. No later than a month ago he displayed a similar state of happiness but now the need for extra gardaí has been accepted. The modus operandi and the sources of information which, in respect of the complaints I made, allowed the information made available to the Minister to be so distorted and so removed from the situation is a matter which concerns me.
There are a few questions I should like to put to the Minister. First, how many extra gardaí is it proposed to provide during the next six months in order to ensure the safety of the citizens in the streets of Dublin and in other cities? At this point I should refer to what appears to be an appraisal of security activity with particular reference to the patrol unit. I refer the Minister to a recent editorial on this aspect which appeared in the Garda Review. I do not wish to delay the House by quoting from that editorial. It is already on the record of the House. The article refers to a reduction in security activity following partly from the recent cutbacks. The Minister denies that there have been cutbacks.
I should like to know, too, how many persons are serving sentences imposed by the Special Criminal Court and how many are awaiting trial or are on remand or on bail pending trial in the Special Criminal Court? Also, how many gardaí are detailed for special duty on the Border and how many are serving protective duty on banks and other financial institutions? Finally, how many cases have been reported to the Minister of ill treatment of persons detained? What inquiries have been made in this regard and what were the results?
On Estimate No. 26 there is a case in respect of which the Minister knows I have reason to refer. In the context of the case I have in mind I would ask the Minister to ensure that in future when anybody applies to the Land Registry to have property registered his request would not be complied with until such time as investigations had been carried out and the Land Registry people satisfied of the applicant's entitlement to registration.
In the case I am referring to registration was granted but when a member of the family concerned sought to see the instrument of registration this could not be found although in reply to a question in relation to the case the Minister informed me, and informed me correctly, that anybody interested— and that should include members of a family—could see the instrument of registration. In the case in point efforts were being made in this regard during a two-year period but without success. Eventually, after there had been a change of personnel, the person concerned was given the document. If it was considered wrong to make the document available in the first instance one must assume that it was wrong also in the second instance. The instrument of registration contains details of how the registration was achieved. Although those concerned with the case I have in mind are of the opinion that registration was granted wrongly, they cannot get anybody who is willing to contest the case for them. It is deplorable that a relative of a person who has been granted registration is not given the authority to contest that registration.
I ask the Minister to ensure that in future everybody concerned be consulted before an application for registration is granted. In the case I am referring to the registration was carried out in a shady fashion, to say the least. I am raising the point so that the House might know what can happen in this sphere of activity. In saying that I am not casting aspersions on the officials of the Land Registry office. They are a decent lot of people but an investigation should be carried out among relatives, particularly brothers and sisters, in respect of any application for registration.
Can the Minister say whether, pending the recruitment and training of extra gardaí, provision will be made for existing members to work overtime so that the situation as set out in the Garda Review a short while ago might be coped with and also to deal with the crisis situation that has developed as a result of the closure of the banks?
To deal first with Deputy Callanan's question, I wish to assure him that the Land Registry have a statutory obligation to investigate all applications coming before them but they must take every application on its face value and if it transpires that information contained in the application is wrong, whether in respect of a declaration, a title document or even an affidavit, the situation is not something for which the Land Registry can be blamed.
There is procedure whereby they must serve notice to parties appearing to have an interest in an application. There is an obligation on them to serve notice by registered post, but that is as far as the obligation can extend. They could not be obliged to ensure that those notices reach the people for whom they are intended but it is assumed generally that the serving of any document by registered post is adequate. I am aware of the facts of the case raised by the Deputy but, having heard his side of it only, I would not wish to prejudge it. It is something which, when finally thrashed out, may give a fuller perspective.
The Minister did not deal with the fact that it was so hard to get the instrument of registration to which relatives should be entitled. It is the instrument of registration which is very important.
As Deputy Callanan is aware, there was a differing interpretation by different registrars of their right to make available instruments from the Registry. I think that is the explanation of it.
Does the Minister think that the first interpretation was correct, that a relative could not get the instrument of registration?
I would not be prepared to comment on that. That is a matter for the Registration of Title Act and I have no intention of interpreting it.
I thought, listening to Deputy Collins speech, how glad I was that the Ireland of reality is not the Ireland painted by him in his speech, because he painted a most appealing picture of a lawless society, of a society in which the criminal literally rules. He painted a picture suggesting that publice safety is a thing of the past, suggesting that crime is endemic, that indeed crimes of violence are endemic. The reality of the situation has no connection with that picture. I think Deputy Collins may have been misled by two things: number one, his anxiety to redress what he thinks is an undue clothing by the Government of themselves with a law and order costume. He feels this is reacting unfairly to the Opposition, that they are entitled to wear those clothes also. I do not deny that but possibly his sensitivity in that area may have led him to make an exaggerated case. The second factor which contributed to his misleading picture was his reliance on an editorial which I understand was published recently in the magazine the Garda Review.
I have not yet had an opportunity of reading that particular number but I have read newspaper comments on the article in question. I know generally what is in it. Indeed I have read comment in leading articles on the article in question. I recall one that struck in my mind, a leading article in the Irish Press which, in commenting on the allegations in the leading article, warned that there could be an element of special pleading in that leading article. This is something we do have to bear in mind, but I shall keep an open mind on it until I read it fully. It is necessary to point out that the views in that article are not the official views of the Garda Síochána. They are the views of the representatives of the staff, staff association views and, accordingly, their perspective must be somewhat narrow and—again to quote the leading article in the Irish Press—we must beware of an element of special pleading. Within the Garda Síochána the question of overtime produces widespread reaction. Deputy Collins referred to the less desirable consequences and features which unrestrained overtime can introduce into any work force. There are many members of the Garda Síochána concerned with those aspects of it. There are also members dissatisfied with the amount of it that is available. That is understandable when we bear in mind that, last year, it was running at a rate where there was an average payment of £1,200 per annum per man. Bearing in mind that there would be a very large number not receiving any overtime, Deputies can begin to assess the extra payment received by some members and perhaps can begin to understand and appreciate the comment in the leading article in the Irish Press when it said to beware of the danger of special pleading.
I do not want to say any more than that except to draw attention to this aspect of it, to put into perspective the general tone of what was in that editorial and the case made by Deputy Collins. I do feel he has been unwittingly misled by an editorial that might have been guilty of special pleading but certainly—and I say this categorically—it does not represent official Garda views. Deputy Collins did say in the course of his speech, when referring to what was said, that these are most serious statements. Then he said: the guards themselves say. The guards themselves do not say any such thing, because that particular article is one written by a staff association. The facts do not bear out the suggestion that this is a lawless country. We have only to look around us or ask the next man in the street and he is not going to express any apprehension that this is a lawless country.
Of course, we are concerned with crimes that have been committed in recent months, crimes involving firearms, larceny of large amounts of property, crimes which were committed with a certain degree of callous ruthlessness. Naturally such crimes will cause a certain amount of unrest and apprehension, but I want to remind the House that I cannot here go into the detail of the vast majority of these crimes for the very good and pertinent reason that the vast majority of them are sub judice. In that statement alone I have almost answered the bulk of allegations or certainly the tone of Deputy Collins' argument. I am very pleased to be able to tell the House that the preliminary statistics of crime figures for the first quarter of 1976 show a drop of 4 per cent on the equivalent figures for 1975, the time we have just gone through, the time to which Deputy Collins referred when he spoke about a lawless country.
Would the Minister elaborate a little on that figure? What is included when he says the crime figures, is it serious and non-serious, and is it indicatable offences?
Indictable offences.
Reported?
Yes, indictable offences reported. Perhaps I might be allowed give some comparisons for this city and some cities across the water in the year 1975. In the Dublin Metropolitan area the number of offences per one hundred thousand of the population was 2,650. In the city of Birmingham the figure was 4,450. In 1973 Liverpool and Bootle—that is a police area—the figure was 8,000 and, in the city of Edinburgh, 5,510. Deputies will see from those figures that the claims and the case made here by Deputy Collins and by other Opposition spokesmen from time to time are exaggerated when taken in the context of a comparable society next door, so to speak. The actual reduction in our own figures—which will improve that comparative position even more—shows that the Garda are well on top of the crime situation. I do not know what the next quarter will bring or if the quarter after that may bring a swing the other way. Possibly, when the year is over, the statistics may be line balled, they may be slightly ahead; hopefully, they will be back. But I think they will be back, because this is not a lawless country and it is wrong to suggest that it is. It causes public unease when there is no justification for it, something which, if it went abroad, could damage our prospects internationally. We have just finished a debate on the Department of Industry and Commerce, during which Deputy O'Malley was decrying the lack of investment and the difficulties of providing a climate to provide for the number of jobs that have to be provided. It is terribly important that foreigners who might be of a mind to invest here would not have their confidence in this country carelessly—and I say this not in any pejorative fashion —wrongly disturbed because the situation in this country does not justify the case Deputy Collins has been making.
Would the Minister not accept that it is quite possible that the decrease to which he refers derives from the fact that he has not the facility, or that we have not a sufficiency of gardaí, to detect offences? That is the case I am making.
No, the statistics on which the crime report is based are compiled on the basis of reported offences, not detected offences. Therefore, if there were no police at all the number of crimes being reported would be the same. There is no connection.
If people are not reporting them.
There is a connection.
As I know, if people report offences two, three, four, five and six times and nothing is done about it they stop reporting.
That is the point.
They stop reporting them. That is what happened in my area.
The point is that offences are reported. There is no suggestion of any reduction in the level of reporting offences. I have taken steps to ensure that the recording of crime is now more rigidly done and to ensure that everything is recorded. I am very pleased, having knowledge of this more careful recording, to emphasise that the drop in crime statistics is even more significantly optimistic.
The picture painted by Deputy Collines is not a true picture. It does not represent the Ireland of today. By comparison with Britain we are in an infinitely better position. By comparison with our own position this time last year we are 4 per cent better off. The suggestion that this is a lawless country with crime increasing and muggings happening all over the place is wrong. Indeed, this kind of talk could do the country a great deal of harm. It is dangerous talk, and I hope there will now be an acceptance of the real position and no repetition of this talk.
May I ask the Minister a question? During the month of March last we had in Dublin at least 30 armed robberies and something over £300,000 taken. Can the Minister tell us how many of these cases are before the court and how much of the money has been recovered?
If I have that information before I finish I will give it to the Deputy. It is a specific question relating to a specific time.
How many unsolved murders have we?
Again, I have not got that information, but I think very few, because, happily, murder is not a common crime. Unsolved murders could include murders unsolved since the foundation of the State.
Within the last year or two or even since the Minister took office?
I am afraid I cannot say. Actually I am not aware of any, but I cannot be definite on that. The fact that they are not solved does not mean they may not be solved.
On the matter of overtime, Deputies will be interested to know that the figure provided this year is £5 million. Last year the figure was £8.2 million. Deputies will also be interested to know that almost £2.5 million is being provided for what is called payment in respect of unsocial hours—that is, duty on Saturdays, Sundays and public holidays. This is possibly something that is not generally known.
That does not include any extra overtime for 1976. I do not want to keep interrupting, but in the Garda Review editorial statistics are given and perhaps some of the Minister's officials would advise him as to the accuracy of the statistics because, if they are not true, that should be said.
I have not had an opportunity of reading that particular article in full. I have only read comments on it.
The Minister is aware there is a question on the Order Paper on this and his officials will have done the necessary background work and should be in a position to advise the Minister as to the accuracy of the statistics given. It is question No. 108. I fully appreciate that the Minister has been out of the country.
There is nothing in Question No. 108 or Question No. 109 about statistics. If there are statistics they will be checked out. I do not know the source of them because this particular magazine does not represent official Garda policy. It is not an official magazine. It is merely a representative body or staff association magazine.
The Minister will agree that, if figures are given, the veracity of the figures should be checked by those in a position to do so and a statement issued on them?
If they can be checked they will, of course, be checked. I am happy to report that the position painted by Deputy Collins is not the real position. Notwithstanding that, I am aware that there is unease in some parts of the country, particularly in this city, and people would like to see a more visible Garda presence. Policing is effective in Dublin and throughout the country, and the proof of that is the drop in crime for the first quarter of this year compared with the same period last year. Recently I met an association of Dublin central city traders. They were apprehensive of the situation pertaining to the centre of the city and I promised them, with the full backing of the Government, that all parts of the city at all times of the day or night would be safe for any citizen to walk in without danger of molestation. That is a promise I intend to keep and, if necessary, a higher level of policing will be maintained in such areas. It is a matter for the professional judgment of the Commissioner, but I would hope that a reasonable proportion of the extra force would be deployed in these areas to ensure the fulfilment of that promise.
Deputy Tunney suggested I was misleading him and the House some time ago in regard to——
I suggested that maybe the Minister's officials were misled or were misleading the Minister. There is a slight difference.
I accept the point. May I assure the Deputy that neither the Department nor I have any intention of misleading anybody. Deputy Tunney was making the case—he will correct me if I am wrong—that in telling him there was adequate policing in his area I am now contradicting myself in saying there is need for 500 extra gardaí. I do not think that is necessarily contradictory because I do not know where the 500 will be deployed. It may be that the level of policing in the area to which he referred is adequate. His opinion may differ from that of the professional gardaí, and I have to accept the professional advice offered to me. It does not necessarily follow that, because there is a feeling in one particular area that there should be more gardaí and I say the number is sufficient, and I announce an increase in the total strength subsequently, I am thereby somehow contradicting myself. I have, I think, pointed out the fallacy in the argument. Deputy Tunney asked where I get my information. The information I get with regard to the level of policing in any area comes from Garda Headquarters.
Deputy Brugha wanted to know the number serving sentences imposed by the Special Criminal Court. I can give him the total number convicted. Up to 30th April, 1976 it is 724. In Portlaoise, where these people serve their sentences, since they are generally associated with subversive organisations, there are probably 120 or 130 at present.
Deputy Brugha also wanted to know how many are awaiting trial. The answer is 76. All custody cases have been listed for hearing. I do not know how many are awaiting trial on bail. He also wanted to know how many gardaí there are on the Border. That is not a figure I would be anxious to give. I have not got the actual figure but I trust Deputy Brugha will understand that I am not anxious to give the figure for security reasons. He also wanted to know how many are on bank duty. The figure varies from time to time depending on need and requisitions from particular banks.
He then asked me how many cases of ill-treatment had been reported. None has been reported to me and I have no information from the Commissioner as to how many complaints have been made to the gardaí for investigation. I have read many public allegations of ill-treatment. Deputy Blaney put a question to me last week in regard to alleged ill-treatment in Cavan but up to the time of that question—possibly to the end of last week—no complaints had been made to the superintendent concerned or to the Garda authorities.
It is a well-known tactic by certain elements to shout "brutality" when they find the screw beginning to turn and that fact must be borne in mind. On the other hand, if the Garda are concerned with their reputation they will be pleased to have complaints specifically made to them. Where a complaint lies they will be pleased to investigate it in accordance with established procedures that will ensure a complete and thorough investigation. For their own reputation they are anxious to ensure that state of affairs. However, neither I nor they can be expected to react to every blanket cry of police brutality, particularly when they, I and the vast majority of the people know that this is a normal tactic to be used when the police are beginning to tighten in on criminal elements.
Deputy Collins mentioned the legal aid dispute. I am glad to tell him that, while it is not ended, I am extremely hopeful of an end to it in the very near future. I do not want to say any more than that because negotiations are at a delicate stage. I may have news very shortly that it will be ended on terms that I hope will be satisfactory to the profession and to myself.
Deputy Brosnan asked if there would be an increase in overtime pending the recruitment of the extra gardaí. The answer to that is no. There will not be any increase in the level of overtime available. The budgetary amount has been allocated and, as I pointed out earlier, there has been no lessening in the effectiveness of enforcing the rule of law and order, as it has wrongly come to be called. The statistics for the first quarter of this year show a decrease over the comparable statistics for the first quarter of last year and that is the best answer I can give to those who say the police are ineffective and that lawlessness is endemic. Neither proposition is true. The police are effective, this is a law-abiding country and that is the way we intend to keep it.
It is very unfortunate that this most important Estimate did not mention other important matters relating to the activities of the Garda, for example, the non-enforcement of the Forcible Entry Act and the nonrepeal of that Act. These are just two examples. The Minister has endeavoured to convey to the House and to the country that the case put by Deputy Collins and others——
The Deputy may not make a speech. He may ask a question.
With respect, I do not think that is correct. That was not the ruling of the Chair today on this matter in which we are being forced to agree to a huge list of Estimates involving, millions of pounds of the taxpayers' money without any adequate time to discuss them. With due respect, I do not think that is the position. I do not intend to detain the House but I am entitled to point out to the Minister that his effort to paint a picture of a country that is law-abiding, in which the statistics for indictable crime for the last quarter are going down, according to him, falls down when one recalls that about a month ago the Minister told this House that there was no need for additional recruitment of gardaí.
The Deputy should quote me.
Does the Minister recall a question he answered where he gave statistics of the number of gardaí recruited in 1972, 1973, 1974 and 1975——
I answered a number of questions.
The answer given was that the number recruited each year from 1972 went down and that this year it was the lowest number. In view of that the Minister was asked if he intended to increase the recruitment this year and he said no.
Possibly it is wrong for the Deputy and myself to speak from recollection; we should check the record. My attitude with regard to increasing the overall level of the force was that I was anxious to wait until the management consultants had completed their survey but that was not an absolute condition on making a decision as to whether to increase the number.
Will the Minister not agree that he is now on a tightrope? On the one hand he is trying to say——
Does the Deputy disagree with the decision of the Government to increase the number?
No, not at all.
Then the Deputy should not complain.
I am not complaining. I am saying that the Minister by that decision is showing that the case made by Deputy Collins and other Deputies was justified. What is more, I have grave doubts about that decision. I think it was a public relations exercise. The Minister announced a figure of 500 but he knows he will not have 500 this year.
Is the Deputy saying we should not increase the number until next year?
I am saying that a genuine effort is needed. There is no justification for the Minister, having told us approximately half-way through the year that he was not going to recruit further gardaí until he had an adequate report from the consultants, then to turn around and increase the number. The decision of the Minister or the Government was to allay the genuine grave concern at the breakdown of law and order enforcement, particularly in the city of Dublin but also throughout the country. That is why the Minister made the decision. It was a public relations exercise and it is not going to be implemented in the present year, except to a limited extent. That is the complaint I am making and it is the complaint Deputy Collins made. The actions of the Minister and the Government are the best justification for the case made by Deputy Collins about the breakdown of law and order and the enforcement of law and order, particularly in Dublin.
There are only two things that would make the Opposition happy in regard to this situation. First, not to recruit the extra gardaí, possibly even to reduce the level of the gardaí——
That is not true.
Secondly, the Opposition would be very happy if there was a state of lawlessness in this country. There is not a lawless state in this country.
