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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 8 Feb 1977

Vol. 296 No. 7

Private Members' Business. - Third Level Education: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann calls on the Government to increase the money value of third level grants and scholarships and to update the eligibility limits.

I welcome the opportunity to move this motion. Time was when third level education was regarded as the preserve of the privileged, the wealthy. People who could not avail of it were not necessarily lacking in intelligence, but it is true that people who had plenty of intelligence and lacked wealth could not avail of it. Until comparatively recently, third level education was mainly regarded as university education.

The philosophical basis for the introduction of third level education grants and scholarships was the provision of equality of opportunity in so far as that is possible in the modern State. Young people of ability who normally without aid could not avail of third level education, by what had become almost a consensus philosophy in the world, could be aided by Governments and thus be able to exploit their potential and also move socially—it became a means of social mobility. When little words like these become popular they develop into the nature of a cliche, but we should examine the realities behind the words. In our own society it is true, that there are many young people of ability who will not be able to go to third level institutions, universities and other institutions of higher education if they have not got help from the State.

Indeed, for many years second level education in Christian Brothers' schools and other such institutions was provided practically free. It was the best value for money in any country in the world. The money from the State was small and the fees were ridiculously low. The next logical step was to see to it that able people who wanted to go on to third level institutions should be able to do so. Consequently, the few scholarships that had existed were replaced by a system of grants introduced by a Fianna Fáil Government in 1968.

That scheme may need amendment, improvement, but tonight I am talking about raising the money value of the grants and the parents' income ceilings so that the ridiculous situation that exists because of inflation will no longer obtain. The part of the grant that covers maintenance and other expenses is at maximum £300. There is a proposal to increase it to £350 for a person living away from home. For someone living in or adjacent to a university town, the maximum is £120.

I have here an expense case in relation to a girl whom I will call Susanne in University College Dublin. Her fare to Belfield is 12p. She goes to Belfield and returns six days a week. That costs £1.44. She has bed-and-breakfast lodgings and has to buy her lunch in Belfield, subsidised, for 60p, which amounts to £3.60 per week. She must buy her tea six times a week, sometimes five, which at 55p amounts to £3.30 a week. She is in modest lodgings with week-end meals at £9.50. This is not a case I am taking from the air. It is a real one. All that amounts to £19.84 per week. I have not included the cost of books. I should not include cigarettes, but if she smokes, a packet of Carroll's, the cheapest, costs her 20½ per 10. I have not included anything for entertainment, social life, dancing, the theatre. If she drinks a pint of ale per week, they do it nowadays, it costs her 40p. This continues for 30 weeks and I am giving the cost without indulgence of any kind. I have not added money for clothes and I have not reckoned travel between her home and Dublin and her return home at the end of term, which a student would be entitled to have taken into account. All I have given is a parsimonious estimate, crushing out any social element, and that for 30 weeks, and that may be a little longer than the normal. With examinations or extra study it could reckon out at roughly £600 a year and it is low at that. Everyone knows, including the Minister, that expenses are very high nowadays no matter how carefully a student lives.

Away back in 1966 Fine Gael proposed £350. Deputy Collins is smiling. He is an economist and he knows about inflation. Admittedly, Fianna Fáil would have had to pay the Bill. Now that we are in Opposition we can be a little more flaithiúlach: Is fial thú le stiall leathair duine eile. That is what Fine Gael were doing at that particular time. Those were the good old days. There was an inflation rate of roughly 8½ per cent per annum which would bring the total for that period of eight years to about 70 per cent. Since 1973, on top of that, we have had an 84 per cent increase in the cost of living. The end result would be 154 per cent of £350. I presume fees were excluded originally. I saw the Fine Gael document but I did not read it very carefully. I think it would have excluded fees. I reckon the £350 should now read £875 in round figures. What is required now is not the £50 mentioned by the Minister for Finance but a realistic figure related to the CPI.

This is not the most serious aspect from the point of view of the son or daughter of the poor man because even those inadequate grants are not available in any liberal fashion. I have here the figures for the student who does not live in an university town or adjacent to it. This is something the Minister should study until he grows angry and changes it. At the top there is "Income of parent less than £1,600 per annum". To start with, £1,600 is too low. I am sure this is the most recent table. Perhaps the Minister will confirm whether it is or not. A man with less than £1,600 and one child will get the full grant but if he has £1,600 he will not get the full grant. That is the result of these figures being left untouched despite inflation totalling 84 per cent since 1973. A farm labourer on the maximum wage with one child may not enjoy the full grant under the present system. The line lies between £30 and £31 per week.

I had a look at Eolaire an Stáit to see who would be excluded. A paperkeeper ranges between £48.73 to £51.42 per week. Even if his child should be very bright and get four honours in the leaving certificate, he will not get the full grant. A messenger ranging between £44.55 and £47.68 with a child anxious to avail of third level education will not get the full grant because his father is earning too much. A cleaner with £44.22 per week up to £46.89 will not get the full grant under the present system. This is as a result of inflation, as a result of this text becoming a sacred text not to be changed or updated. The Minister will in all fairness see the strength of the case and change that column realistically to bring it in line with the realities that I have just been reading out to the House from Eolaire an Stáit 1977.

A comparatively young clerical officer would be unlikely to have a candidate for higher education, but even he would be outside the limit for his one son or daughter who had the qualifications; a clerical assistant the same. Those few instances indicate to the House how badly in need of revision those figures are. Fine Gael's concern away back in the 1960s seems now to have turned into indifference and I am trying to rouse their conscience to the same fine pitch as it was roused to in 1966 when Fianna Fáil were paying the Bill.

The people were paying the bill.

When the people were paying the bill, correct, and the people had the good sense to put as keepers of the purse the Fianna Fáil Party and kept them there for 16 years and will again le cúnamh Dé.

And they saw the light of day.

Some people will say that we entered the valley of the shadow of death, but I am open to conviction. I am not open to conviction by Deputy Collins on that point, but I will listen to everybody.

The Deputy has had plenty of chance to reflect on it.

We have had but we are not going to have much more.

Time is on the Deputy's side.

I have just established that the Fine Gael conscience is alive and responds to the proper stimulus, and I know the Minister will respond to my appeal to have a look at that list and to remove this ridiculous anomaly of starting off on a list with a totally unrealistic figure of £1,600. I have a little booklet here which was got out by the Labour Party, who are notably absent. They did not stray over here and they are not on that side of the House. They must be ashamed of what is going on and do not want to come in. This is Challenge and Change in Education, a report put out by a committee chaired by Deputy Barry Desmond—I thought he might be here —and I am reading from page 22:

We may not need a very large expansion in the number of graduates but we most certainly need to ensure that those graduates should be our best vocational and secondary school students, not just those who can afford to pay for university education.

If the Labour Party policy remains the same on that, they should get moving. They should convince the Government that they have 20 votes and that unless they up these figures realistically those 20 pairs of feet will not trot after the Minister into the lobby.

Hope springs eternal.

The Deputy is one of the persons who agreed in the corporation with the resolution that the Minister should increase the grants.

I want to point out that there is a certain development which accords to the Labour Party the luxury of a separate policy on education. If the members of the Labour Party, and especially members of that party who are also members of the Government, agree that the income of parents is set too low on that list that I have just read out—and I think they do believe that it is set too low because they have been labouring the point around the country and I have had reports and I have read speeches—they now have an opportunity to put their feet where their words have been and to support this motion and not be indulging in the hypocrisy of pretending that the Government have a policy on education, that the party do not agree with it, that this is what they want.

If they want that, all they have to do is back up this motion on this point. If the Labour TDs and Minister think that a labourer with one bright child who achieves four honours in the leaving certificate; a messenger with one bright child who achieves four honours in the leaving certificate; a paperkeeper with one bright child who achieves four honours in the leaving certificate, is too wealthy to be allowed to enjoy a full third-level grant and get a higher education, then they should vote against this motion. If they believe that the categories mentioned by me are too privileged in our community to be able to enjoy for their children a third-level full university grant, then they should vote against this motion. I do not believe that the supporters of the Labour Party or the TDs in the Labour Party think that that eligibility scale has any truth or validity left in it. I believe they are as anxious as I am that the eligibility limits be increased, and for that reason I am appealing to them to support this motion.

I started off by saying that the whole idea of university grants had as its philosophic basis the belief that opportunity should be equal for all. If the Government and the parties who support the Government believe that, then they should face the two problems mentioned in the motion: that the money allotted by way of grant is not sufficient due to inflation, that the eligibility limits have no reality nowadays and that therefore, the Government should raise the limits and raise the amount of the grant. It is fraudulent, in a sense, to say the money is available provided the standard is reached, if you cut off an individual, in certain circumstances admittedly, between £30 and £31 a week and if you say: "You cannot have a full grant if your salary is somewhere between £30 and £31 a week."

The Minister for Finance announced an increase of £50 in the grant in his budget but, significantly, he did not touch the parents' income limits. You could make £1 million available straight away and then cut out all possibility of anyone enjoying it by leaving there the figures which have been operating practically since the scheme began. It is like the £4,500 loan for a house in the local government sphere. There are many sums of £4,500 available but where is the unfortunate person to get the other £6,000 or £7,000 it takes to build a house?

The pretext—and that is all it is when we study those figures—that third level education is, like the Ritz, open to everyone must be faced up to. We must remove the unreality, the element of pretext and fraud in it. What is mainly in contention is the part which deals with maintenance and other expenses, and this part is very closely monitored by the consumer price index. So, there is a regulator ready to hand in the CPI which covers the items I mentioned earlier. The Minister has that ready to hand and can use it to decide realistically on the salaries and on the amounts of the grants.

In asking the House to pass this motion for the reasons stated I am conscious, as I remarked earlier, that a consensus has developed, partly under the influence of socialistic thinking, that lack of money should not preclude anyone from going as far as he or she possibly can in the educational world. That consensus is there. The will to do something about that consensus seems to have been lacking in the Government. I am surprised the Labour Party have not acted as a goad and have not provided a stimulus to have the parents' limits for eligibility raised. They should be conscious of what has happened in that sphere. They are interested in, and some of them are members of, and dealing with, and making representations for trade unions. Above all, they should be conscious of this anomaly.

I am not without hope that they will support this motion when it comes to a vote tomorrow night. They will be acting in accordance with their own traditions; they will be acting perfectly logically when they vote for this motion, that is, if the Minister decides to put it to the vote. The Minister may very well accept it and, in doing so, he would be acting in accordance with the principles laid down in the Just Society document in the mid-1960s. I did not mean it as a jibe when I said somebody else was paying the bill and somebody else was responsible for the public purse at the time. I would be very glad if the Minister proved I was wrong. I said the old proverb was: "Is fial thú le stiall leathair duine eile." The Minister may very well decide to be fial and flaithiúl with public funds at his disposal in the two ways I mentioned, namely, upping the amount of grants and realistically reappraising the parents' income limits.

I might first make reference to the different schemes of third level grants and scholarships which are in operation and the conditions pertaining to them. The motion reads:

Dáil Éireann calls on the Government to increase the money value of third level grants and scholarships and to update the eligibility limits.

From the Opposition's point of view the timing of this motion is wrong. If they had put this motion down prior to 10th September, 1976, I would see some merit in it or some reason for putting it down, or if they put it down next autumn if the Government did not act on the basis of the report to which I will refer later on again there would be some merit in it. Knowing as they must that this investigation is being conducted at the moment, and knowing the results are not available yet, and knowing that on the basis of those results and the conclusions drawn from that report any changes in the eligibility level will be made, I cannot see any point in the Opposition putting this motion down now. To prod my predecessor last autumn into conducting this report, or to prod me to act on the basis of that report would be more understandable than choosing this twilight period to put down a motion and have it debated in this House. For that reason I will be confidently asking supporters of the Government to reject this motion.

In a way I was glad to have the motion debated because it gave me an opportunity to find out exactly what grants and scholarships are available from the Government and how they are implemented, which I had not managed to get around to over the past few weeks. I should like to refer to the different schemes of third level grants and scholarships which are in operation and the conditions pertaining to them. These are (1) the Local Authorities (Higher Education) Grants Scheme, (2) the Department-operated Primary Education Training Colleges Grants Scheme, (3) the Department-operated Thomond College of Education (Physical Education) Grants Scheme, (4) the Department-operated Home Economics Teacher Training Colleges Grants Scheme.

The scholarship schemes are: (1) the vocational education committee-operated schemes of scholarships to regional and other technical colleges, (2) the scheme of university scholarships awarded by the Department to students from the Gaeltacht, (3) the scheme of scholarships for students wishing to pursue courses throught the medium of Irish at University College, Galway, which is a limited one, (4) the Department's Easter Week, 1916, Commemoration Scholarships, (5) the Department's schemes of scholarships for students who obtain places on departmental teacher-training courses in woodwork, metalwork, woodwork and building construction, general and rural science, metalwork—post-primary education—and educational woodwork and (6) the scheme of awards known as Department of Education scholarships.

The first one I referred to, the Local Authorities (Higher Education) Grants Scheme is administered by the local authorities under the county councils, the county boroughs and the corporations. Each local authority prepare a scheme each year applicable to the candidates in its own functional area and submit it for the Minister's approval. These, of course, are uniform schemes. When they are submitted to the Minister he sanctions them and they go back and are administered by the county council or the borough council, whichever is in question.

The method of financing the scheme is that each local authority contribute a fixed amount annually, that is a sum equal to the amount provided by them in respect of university and post-primary scholarships in the financial year ended 31st March, 1968 and the expenditure on higher education grants over and above the fixed contribution is recouped by my Department. This means that the local authorities' contributions to the scheme have been frozen at the 1968 level. Any increase in university fees since then has been borne totally by the State. I believe what may have prompted in some measure the putting down of this motion was the fact that they could not see an increased allocation in the Estimate for the scheme. The figure in the Estimates for 1977 is the amount of money which has been billed by the local authorities in respect of the preceding year so that any increase in 1977, were it to come, would not appear in the 1977 Estimates but would appear in the 1978 Estimates because it is a year behind.

The principal conditions to be complied with in order to be eligible for a grant are that the student must obtain the prescribed successes in the leaving certificate of the Department, he must satisfy the provisions of the means test and he must pursue a full-time approved course of third level education. With regard to the means test particulars are given in the scholastic limits. They were read out and this was the document referred to by Deputy Wilson when he spoke. That, as he said, contains all the information as regards all levels, at what particular spot anybody can slot in. Where income is derived partly from lands and partly from other sources the income derived from such lands is reckoned on the basis that £1 rateable valuation is equivalent to £26.70 cash income.

With regard to the value of the grants, the original position was that the grants were inclusive sums, a maximum of £300 per year for a student whose normal family residence was not in or adjacent to a university town and a maximum of £175 per year for a student whose normal family residence was in or adjacent to a university town. In the academic years 1970-71 and 1971-72 upward adjustments were made to meet the increases in university fees. From the beginning of the academic year 1972-73 grants were divided into two elements, that is, a lecture fee element of up to £156 per annum and a maintenance element of up to £250 a year. The maintenance element was at that time divided into two. It was £250 for those who were not in or adjacent to a university town and £100 a year for those who were in or adjacent to a university town. The increases granted since then are as follows: in the academic year 1974-75—this part is broken into two parts—the maximum of the lecture fee element was raised to £172 and this upper limit could be exceeded in certain faculties. The maximum of the maintenance element was raised to the existing £300 a year for those not adjacent to a town and £120 a year for those in or adjacent to a town. In the academic year 1975-76 the maximum of £172 in relation to the lecture fee was raised to £215. For the current academic year, that is 1976-77, the maximum of £215 in relation to the lecture fee was raised to £249.

The number of grant holders in each academic year and the value of the grants held by them, since the introduction of the scheme in 1968, is as follows:

Academic Year

Number of Grant Holders

1968—69

1,119

1969—70

2,348

1970—71

3,562

1971—72

4,333

1972—73

4,954

1973—74

5,454

1974—75

5,942

1975—76

6,168

As I said earlier, these figures were up to the end of the academic year, that was last summer. The current figures are not yet available because they are compiled on the basis of the bills sent in by the county councils, county boroughs and corporations. They will be available some time in the not too distant future. The value of the grants—I will not read out the years but will just give the amount of money in each of those years— were £252,185, £572,503, £908,016, £1,176,314, £1,524,371, £1,692,502, £2,143,816, and £2,401,000. The bill for the current year is not yet available so I cannot say what that is. This is the point I wanted to make earlier on about the inappropriateness of this motion at this time.

On 10th September, 1976, my predecessor announced that it was proposed to make a fundamental review of the terms of the scheme which would apply as from the academic year 1977—78. It was decided that for that purpose information should be obtained from the local authorities in relation to the operation of the scheme, especially the figures of income, rateable valuation and number of dependant children.

Could we get the reference to that? Was it a statement?

It was issued from the Department in the name of my predecessor. It was decided that the information should be obtained in the case of students who held grants in the academic year 1975-76 and students who were awarded grants in 1976. It is proposed on the basis of this information that increased limits may be determined which will be more appropriate in present circumstances and result in an improved and more suitable scheme being introduced by the academic year 1977-78. As Deputy Wilson stated, the Minister for Finance last month in his budget statement announced that with effect from the academic year 1977-78 the maximum maintenance grant for all holders of grants will be increased from the present £300 to £350. That applies to what are described as "non-adjacent students". The grant in respect of "adjacent students" will be increased from £120 to £140.

In accordance with the terms of the Act of 1968, the courses in respect of which grants apply are (a) university degree courses and (b) courses outside universities which are accepted as being equivalent to university degree courses. It was decided in 1974 to extend the scheme to certain other educational institutions such as the regional technical colleges and colleges of technology in respect of their courses which are (a) wholetime with leaving certificate entry; (b) of a minimum duration of two years and (c) lead to a national certificate or diploma awarded by the National Council for Educational Awards or a certificate or diploma awarded by another recognised institution. That extension is in operation since 1974.

I hope to give the House an opportunity of a further discussion on this subject by introducing the necessary amending legislation to give effect to that provision. Separate schemes, broadly similar to the Higher Education Grants Scheme, are operated by the Department for students in (a) primary teacher training colleges; (b) the Thomond College of Education (Physical Education) and (c) the home economics teacher training colleges. Vocational education committees also award scholarships to students in the regional technical colleges and other technical colleges on the basis of schemes containing a means test, and the value of awards, as provided in the Higher Education Grants Scheme. Non-means test scholarships are awarded by the Department under three schemes: (a) university scholarships for students in the Gaeltacht; (b) scholarships for students wishing to pursue courses through Irish in University College, Galway, and (c) Easter Week 1916 commemoration scholarships. The value of the scholarships for students from the Gaeltacht and for students wishing to pursue courses through Irish in University College, Galway, is £470 per year for a student who has to live in lodgings and £290 per annum for a student living at home. The value of the Easter Week commemoration scholarships is £520 per annum in lodging and £340 per annum for those living at home. Other non-means test scholarships, in the form of weekly allowances, are paid by the Department to students who obtain places on the following departmental teacher-training courses: woodwork, metalwork, woodwork and building construction; general and rural science; metalwork (post primary education) and educational woodwork. The value of the scholarships range from £9 per week to £33.86 per week.

That, then, is an account of the particulars of the situation. But it is necessary, in order to place the matter in its proper perspective, to refer also to the general consideration and, in fact, determine the allocation of finance for the purposes of these schemes. Deputy Wilson glided over this subject. I need hardly remind the House that the past decade has been one of extremely rapid expansion and development at all levels of education. These different levels, as we choose to call them for administrative convenience and ease of identification, are, however, in reality so interdependent and interrelated that any alteration at one level must disturb the existing equilibrium and influence all other levels. Growth in the participation rate and related expansion in investment of resources at one level, for example, leads in the nature of things to a demand, and, indeed, to strong pressure, for the provision of opportunities for still more advanced education. The higher the general level of education becomes, the greater our people's aspiration in this direction.

I hope, therefore, that before proceeding further I have underlined sufficiently the significance of the word "interdependence" in the vocabulary of education and its equally important implications for the allocation of limited resources to the provision of education. Clearly, the development of an educational system is influenced not only by the aspirations of the population and the needs of the economy for qualified personnel but also by financial considerations. A modern educational system is extremely expensive, especially as far as vocational and higher education are concerned. We cannot, however, much as we might like to, simply wish ourselves free of the constraints which finite resources impose upon us, however desirable our objectives. This is an inescapable fact of life. Deputy Wilson spoke of change to bring us into line with the realities but the realities from behind the desk at which I sit are stark and unavoidable. Deputy Wilson can call for increases in the investment in education—very desirable increases and very desirable objectives—but he cannot call for huge sums to be invested in any one project, especially in education.

I should like to remind the House that of the £1,600 million in the Book of Estimates this year more than £300 million will go towards education. That is the real mark of the Government's and the community's willingness to help education and an indication of the willingness of the community to supply that amount of money in taxes for it. There are limits to the increases in expenditure on higher education which may be tolerable, limits which are determined by the country's level of economic development. The amount of money which can be supplied can only be increased by greater growth in the economy generally.

In the money voted for the Department of Education higher education must compete for resources with many other things, both inside and outside education. It is the task of the Government to balance the needs of the various sections of the community. It is my job to balance the demands of those sections. We can give to third level education, but only at the expense of secondary and primary. That is the interdependence I spoke of earlier. Many people would argue that those who go on to higher education, whether they are from the categories listed as not being poor men by Deputy Wilson, or those whose parents can afford to pay the full fees for their education at third level, benefit from State assistance.

The fees paid even by that wealthy segment of this society, or the segment that would be termed well-fed, is not the full cost of third level education. It represents about one-fifth of the cost. The State pays a further four-fifths for all categories and as regards those in the list supplied by Deputy Wilson, the amount of money provided there has grown tenfold in the past ten years and the number of people benefiting by it has grown five-fold. These would still be considered by those who fail academically to qualify for a place in the university, as the lucky segment of society. I do not wish to be taken as saying that we should not, therefore, increase the level of or amount of grants available nor increase the eligibility level of parents so that they are entitled to grants. I think we shall have to do that but we cannot do it on the basis of plucking the figures out of the air or because we feel that the income levels should be raised or that grants should be increased. We must do it on some quasi-scientific basis—it may be no more than that—but we must do it on the basis of the experience of the county councils and corporations that have been administering the scheme for over ten years now.

It was for that purpose that my predecessor asked them to supply figures and facts so that he might either continue the present scheme or introduce a new scheme depending on what they produced. The facts are now with my Department and will be assembled and brought to me with possible policy options as regards continuing the current scheme or introducing a new one for the academic year 1977-78. It is on that basis that we shall move forward. I do not understand why, at this twilight stage after the Minister's announcement in September, and before the results are available, this motion was put down for debate when it was known to the Opposition that the facts on which a proper debate could be held were not available either to them or to me until this study is completed.

I appreciate that the Minister is new to this Department. This is the first opportunity I have had of wishing him good luck in his onerous task. Having said that, I do not think anyone listening to what the Minister said could be under any impression other than that he had not yet had time to get a grasp of his new Department. I can understand that, but it is only fair to point out to him, when he chastises our party for putting down this motion on the grounds of its timing, that the Dublin Corporation through the cultural committee and then through the city council unanimously passed a resolution calling on the Minister for Education— the Minister's predecessor—to increase eligibility limits for grants for higher education. At the time when I was chairman of the cultural committee a deputation was selected and we requested a meeting with the Minister. That was not last year but in the previous year and the Minister should have on the records the request we made to discuss this matter with the then Minister. The then Minister refused to meet the deputation from Dublin Corporation. Deputy O'Brien, I note, is absent now possibly because I reminded him that he was one of the people who also supported the call to the Minister for Education to discuss this matter.

The facts are, and they cannot be denied, that the figures for eligibility which were last fixed in 1972 still exist. In speaking on the budget as reported in Volume 296 of the Official Report on 27th January, 1977. I referred to the fact that Dublin Corporation had prepared some figures to show how the limits allowed today should be increased to allow for inflation. Their figures were worked out for 31st March last. The figure of £1,600 was the lowest level which was fixed in 1972 and at the end of March it should have been £2,770 to keep in line with inflation. Allowing for about 18 per cent inflation since then the figure should be over £3,000. Without going through all these figures I may start with the maximum and take parents with ten children, which was the maximum number under the scheme. In 1972 the limit was £3,490. At the end of March, 1976, that figure should have been £5,766. Allowing for inflation since, that figure should be nearer £7,000 today. So, many people who have the necessary marks in their leaving certificate have been denied the higher education to which they were entitled.

Generally, I believe that correspondents on education are probably the most objective journalists writing in our papers. I do not say that for the sake of plamás.

I agree with the Deputy.

I am glad the Minister agrees. I have been critical of other correspondents but these correspondents, I think, would agree that—if I may use the word ideology —the Fianna Fáil ideology in regard to education is far wider in our commitment to education for the people than that of the Minister's own party, unfortunately. We used to think the Labour Party had a greater commitment to education than the Fine Gael Party, but the Labour Party have disappeared from the scene and merged with the Fine Gael Party. I am saying sincerely what I believe and that is that they do not attach the same importance to education as Fianna Fáil.

Deputy Wilson answered that himself.

We can be judged on our record in education. Today, because of inflation, figures can be thrown out; they do not mean anything any more. When I speak about opportunities for education I am concerned with individuals, young people who show promise, who have the intellectual capacity to partake in an academic career. I see some of these people being deprived.

I would like to give an example of what I mean when I talk about the importance we as a Government attached to education. In 1972, before we left office, a young girl came to me because she could not qualify under the £1,600 eligibility limit as her father was earning £1,900 in England and he had to support himself there. When I took this up with Dublin Corporation they said there was nothing they could do and that I should contact the Department of Education. I spoke to the then Minister, Deputy Faulkner, and he said consideration should be taken of the fact that if a father is working in England he has to maintain himself. He said that since the entire grant was paid by the corporation, as far as he was concerned he would authorise that the scholarship grant should be given, and it was.

That is humanity.

Where scholarships are concerned the Minister has a great deal of power. He can authorise them It is not a statutory situation over which he has not control. Obviously he has some control if a Fianna Fáil Minister could do that. It is not plamás when I say he has humanity. When cases like this come before him I hope he will give them the same consideration.

I also believe that when we renew our request to see him at some time in the future to discuss the situation and let him know the problems we are faced with in Dublin, he will have the courtesy to meet us. We know the demands made on him for deputations. We are not unreasonable. We do not bring along 45 councillors. We select five, six, seven or perhaps even ten, because there is always a tremendous interest in education. We believe the Minister will at least listen to the case we present.

The Department are aware that very few people qualify because due to inflation, and under existing eligibility limits they are not able to avail of the grants. That is why I implore the Minister as a matter of urgency to try to bring the eligibility limits in line with inflation. There are many other aspects with which other people will deal. From May, 1968, to May, 1976, inflation was 136 per cent. One must consider how much grants were worth in 1968 and by how much they have increased. We all know demands on education are vast and we know the difficulties facing the Minister—building and extending schools—but the Government have an obligation to feed the people, put roofs over their heads and educate them.

Education is very important. I can remember when it was the poor relation. Under the late Donncadh O'Malley it became recognised as a most important subject. If we cannot employ our own people we should not adopt a dog in the manger attitude by saying "We are not going to educate them either". If we educate them for export they will be able to make a good living in another land where they will be welcomed and someday they will come back when our economy improves.

Anyone who has the capacity to avail of an academic education should not be denied it. The Minister should be much more aggressive at Cabinet level than his predecessor and demand that his Estimate will not be cut back. It is easy for the Minister for Finance to give increased amounts for grants if they are not availed of because, allowing for inflation, these people will be outside the eligibility limits. This is a very subtle way of denying people their due.

I am not as optimistic as my colleague when he states that, if this is put to a vote tomorrow and the Minister does not accept this motion, members of his party will support this motion even though quite a number of them and members of the Labour Party voted for increased grants at the Dublin Corporation meetings. It is this type of hypocrisy which tends to bring public representation into disrepute. In Dublin Corporation they vote one way but in the Dáil, where it really counts and something can be done, they vote the opposite way. I would sooner they got up and argued their case at local level and said it cannot be done. They should be consistent.

I have made the best case I can. This is not the first time I have brought up in this House the need to increase these limits. The Minister must increase them. He said a report was coming out but everyone knows we are in an election year. The promises we get now——

The Deputy has a point there.

——are going to ring hollow with the electorate, and particularly those people who have been denied the education they were entitled to. The increase of £50 on the £300 grant for those living in digs in the university area is paltry compared to the amount granted at the time the figure was originally raised to £300, which was in 1968. It does not matter when it was increased. We know it was increased——

It was increased in 1974-75.

Taking it from that time, the figure is not in keeping with inflation when you allow 20 per cent for last year and 20 per cent for the previous year.

Some time ago Deputy Fergus O'Brien and I spoke at UCD. I pointed out to the Historical Society that the University at Belfield was a monument to Fianna Fáil and that we had to ask ourselves if the university could be maintained let alone consider building another university like it for many years to come. Great problems beset us in relation to higher education. I appreciate the difficulty that the officials of the Department have in trying to meet the thousands of demands made upon that Department. The headline in one of this evening's papers is "Cash Crisis in Schools". We know this is true and the Minister must now fight his corner to get extra funds. I know from close contact with people in my constituency, which is an 80 per cent working-class constituency, that they do not begrudge paying taxes if their children are being educated. I know this is true because I have attended many parent/teacher association meetings. From deputations they have met, the officials and the Minister know that people have a sense of sacrifice in relation to the education of their children. The painful part is to educate them and then to see them having to emigrate through lack of job opportunities.

In the school in Terenure East, where I hope the Minister will shortly meet a deputation, quite a number of children have been turned away because there is no room for them. If there is no room for them in that school, where are they to go? There is a crisis in education which requires tough action by the Minister. The sooner the election takes place, the sooner we can get back in, restore confidence and inject money into education.

So that you can replace the Minister with that inhuman Opposition spokesman.

We have a very inhuman Minister for Finance who needs shaking to empty his pockets. The Minister would need to be determined to fight his corner at Cabinet meetings for extra money. Other Departments without such a backlog can get money. When people do not get the opportunities to which they are entitled, the seeds of discontent are sown. We must recognise that, after food and shelter, education is the next important need. I know that the Minister will exert himself in his new Office and I wish him luck in doing so.

We all share Deputy Briscoe's concern about education. This motion has been badly timed and the arguments have been badly put. The number of grant holders and the money spent on third level education has increased substantially since the Opposition were in power. There are a number of valid points to be made in respect of higher education and I am surprised that the Opposition spokesman failed to make them. I will make them for him.

(Interruptions.)

Whose side is Deputy Collins on?

Does the Deputy want to vote for me?

I can assure the Minister that I am on his side. We widened the scope of third level grants to include regional and technical colleges in 1974. This was an important move. Far too much emphasis is placed on university education. We should be more involved in developing courses in regional and technical colleges. The Government are financing these colleges; indeed, the regional college in Waterford has doubled its capacity in the current year. I am delighted that the higher education grants have become available to those who are doing equivalent courses in the regional and technical colleges. I look forward to a widening of the scope of grants in relation to third level education and an intake of new courses which will become eligible for grants in the not too distant future.

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 8.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 9th February, 1977.
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