(Dublin Central) asked the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs if the National Prices Commission sanctioned the recent postal and telecommunication increases announced in the budget.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - P & T Charges.
16.
The National Prices Commission do not sanction price increases and have no statutory functions regarding postal and telecommunication charges. The increases were fixed in the knowledge of the findings of a consultancy study which the commission were asked to carry out on the financial position of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, including the effects of rising costs. This consultancy study has since been published.
(Dublin Central): Did the consultancy study make any recommendations as to what should take place?
I assume the Deputy is aware of the consultancy study which has been published.
Could the Minister answer the question?
(Dublin Central): Would the Minister agree that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs should have to consult with the Prices Commission as do other sections of the community?
A case can be made out for that. However, it comes rather badly from those benches in view of the fact that it was the Fianna Fáil Administration who incorporated in the Prices Act, 1958, the exclusion from price control legislation of charges in respect of activities carried on by or on behalf of a Minister of State. In October, 1971, the then Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Lalor—and I am happy to see him in the House— established the National Prices Commission whose powers did not extend to an examination of charges for such services as the Post Office, carried on by a Minister of State. Subsequently the Prices (Amendment) Act, 1972, brought certain charges previously excluded for activities of semi-State bodies under the price control legislation, but the continued exclusion of Post Office charges from control legislation was a fully deliberate decision. Speaking in the Dáil on 11th July, 1972, the then Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Lalor, said that he considered it would be inappropriate that the activities of the various Departments of State, local organisations, vocational education committees and harbour authorities should come within the scope of the Prices Act as that would lead to unacceptable confusion as to the functions and responsibilities of various Ministers.
This Government have, however, sought to bring in the National Prices Commission in a broad, general way, not in the fixing of charges but by way of a consultancy study commissioned by them to be carried out and this was considered by my Department. The study was published in 1976 as Occasional Paper No. 21 and if the Deputy is not in possession of a copy I would be happy to provide him with one. It says on page 64, paragraph 4.3.1:
The Size of Price Increases.
Increases in the Department's charges have not been large enough to cover the rise in its own costs, as shown in Appendix V. With one exception they have also lagged below those in the wholesale price index (perhaps the best gauge of the business community's measure of what is reasonable) and in the consumer price index.
On a point of order, the Ceann Comhairle has frequently asked Members at Question Time to refrain from quoting. Is there one law for one and another for another?
The quotation refers to questions. Ministers are entitled to reply. The Chair has no control over the Minister's reply and never has had.
I am trying to answer the Deputy's question with the thoroughness which it deserves and in relation to the public concern which is always felt about such matters. The consultancy study continues:
The above table shows that the index of postal charges....has been ahead of the wholesale and consumer price indices for only two short periods. Telegram charges have been below the indices throughout, and telephones on which the loss has risen to a very substantial level, have also risen in price by less than the indices.
Any reasonable person who reads that consultancy study will have to conclude that increases in charges recently sanctioned were in no way excessive.
(Dublin Central): Would the Minister agree that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs is a high labour content Department?
Obviously.
(Dublin Central): Is the Minister aware that under the national wage agreement this year increases granted in 1977 are roughly on a level of 10 to 12 per cent? Could the Minister agree that the services for which they are responsible are being increased by 25 per cent?
I do not understand the drift of the Deputy's question.
(Dublin Central): I will set it right. The Department of Posts and Telegraphs is a high labour content Department.
That is right. That is the reason why the charges have had to rise.
(Dublin Central): That is the very reason they should not rise. During 1977 the national wage agreement will amount to 10 per cent——
Questions, please. We are having statements from the Deputy.
(Dublin Central):——and the services which the Department of Posts and Telegraphs are responsible for are being increased by 25 per cent. What is the difference?
If the Deputy will look at the consultancy study he will see ample reason, independent of the national pay agreement in this year, why these charges have to rise. The consultancy study cites higher pay which went on to 1976 and those increases have been paid for now plus the high charges on the massive investment in telephone improvement which this Government have put in. That money has to be paid.
(Dublin Central): It has always been the Minister's defence that wages were the chief cause of rising prices in telephone communications. Wages and salaries will rise by only 10 per cent during 1977.
I was anticipating a question from the Deputy. No. 17 please.
I have tried to make it clear to the Deputy that the present deficit arises not from the increases of 1977 but from past increases, and not solely from wages but also from high interest charges. I suggest that the Deputy should study the consultancy study of the National Prices Commission.
Is what the Minister is pointing out not merely another example of what happened under unchecked inflation?
Question No. 17, please, to the Minister for Education.
A Cheann Comhairle—
I have called the next question.
The Minister mentioned my name three times.
Perhaps the Deputy will be brief then.
Am I right in the feeling I got listening to the Minister that the policy of the Minister for Industry and Commerce to which he referred was a proper policy?
I think so, on the whole.
I wanted to get it from the Minister.
The Deputy's argument should be with his colleague on the benches opposite. Deputy Fitzpatrick has just suggested to this House that it is the wrong policy.
(Interruptions.)
Order. Question No. 17.