andMr. Keaveney asked the Minister for the Public Service if he will consider the introduction of legislation to amend the Oireachtas (Allowances to Members) Acts so as to eliminate the discrimination which exists in the payment of expenses as between Members who belong to party groups and those who either do not or who belong to groups of less than a certain number.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Oireachtas (Allowances to Members) Acts.
20.
There is no discrimination in the payment of expenses, and so on, under the Oireachtas (Allowances to Members) Acts as between Members who belong to party groups and those who do not or who belong to groups of less than a certain number.
The Deputies may have intended to refer to the Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices Acts which provide, inter alia, for payment of allowances, to leaders of parties in Dáil Éireann, which are designed to provide research and secretarial assistance for the general conduct of the Opposition in Dáil Éireann. It is not intended to introduce amending legislation to provide for similar payments to Independent Deputies.
The Deputies will be aware that under the arrangements which have been sanctioned to provide secretarial services for Deputies who are not office holders, Independent Deputies are more favourably treated than Deputies who are members of parties.
Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that when I raised this matter with the Minister for Finance in 1974 he was fully favourable to the idea that a change should be made? Is he aware that the Minister did not assert then that there was no discrimination? Will the Parliamentary Secretary tell the House how he can indicate in any way that there is not a discriminatory practice in the payment of moneys when, on a broad basis, in addition to the secretarial services being provided for all members of the House, a figure somewhere in the region of £500 or £600 is payable per Deputy to each party who are regarded as a party by some rule or other of this House?
I am not too sure about the figure, but the 1938 Act provides that not less than seven members of a party must be elected before an allowance is paid.
We want that changed.
You might be able to change it after the election.
A glib reply such as that does not meet the question. Is the Minister for the Public Service not fully aware that Independent Deputies who are not aligned to the three major parties have been more than patient in this matter for the past few years since the figures were moved up to the point at which they now are? Is it not a fact that somewhere in the region of £500 or £600 per head is paid to the three major parties in this House and that the people who come off worse are the three non-aligned Members of the House who asked this question? Will the Parliamentary Secretary, the Minister and the Government look at this matter in the proper light rather than try to find a way out of it? Surely they should consider how it could be solved rather than try to find a way out of it.
I am not trying to find a way out of it. I am telling the Deputy about the situation as I find it. As I said in my reply, Independent Deputies are more favourably treated with regard to the secretarial allowance than the bigger parties.
I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to put on record the full breakdown of the calculations which show that non-party Members of the House, so far as the rules of the House are concerned, are being more favourably treated. The fact is that they are not. They are being discriminated against. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to go fully into this matter and to do something positive about it rather than say that perhaps they will change it after the next election. There will be many changes after the next election but we have been discriminated against for three years and we are concerned about between now and the next election.
We must have finality on this question. If it is to be debated, it must be debated at another time.
The only thing I said to the Deputy was that Independent Deputies are more favourably treated with regard to secretarial services than the big parties. For instance, the ratio for Fianna Fáil is 9:1, for Fine Gael 9:1, for Labour 6:1 and for Independents 3:1. That is treating them more favourably.
I have given a lot of latitude on this matter. I said we must come to finality.
The finality I should like to come to is that you, Sir, as the overall authority in this House, might take an interest in this matter and adjudicate on whether Independent Deputies are being fairly treated. I assert they are not. I put this to the Minister for Finance three years ago and he agreed that he would do something about it. Now I am being fobbed off. The ratio of 1:3 is one to three different people.
As I said, if this matter is to be debated it cannot be debated at Question Time.
There is a figure of about £42,000 going to Fianna Fáil and £17,000 to Fine Gael plus the Ministers' and Parliamentary Secretaries' allowances and all the other assistance they are getting. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to do something about this. Perhaps it could be raised usefully at a meeting of the Committee on Procedures and Privileges.
I do not see that the Chair has any function in this matter.
I will have it brought to the Committee on Procedures and Privileges.
I hope the Government will live up to the promise made in 1974 by the Minister for Finance.
I know nothing about that.
It is on the record of the House.
Order. Question No. 21.