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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 Oct 1977

Vol. 300 No. 3

Adjournment Debate: Amnesty International Report.

I wish to thank the Ceann Comhairle for affording me this opportunity of raising this matter on the adjournment. I congratulate the Minister for Justice on his appointment and wish him well in what I know, even from this remove, to be a very challenging post. I hope the cause of justice will be well served under his stewardship. For a number of months we have heard of allegations of maltreatment by the Garda Síochána of persons arrested under the Emergency Powers Act and the Offences Against the State Act. The allegations have come from a wide range of sources, including Amnesty International which submitted a report on the subject to the Government. While this report has not been published in full a summary of it has been. It is clear from that summary that Amnesty International are concerned. Similar allegations were made by members of the legal profession, including a lawyer who acted on behalf of the Government at the recent Strasbourg hearing concerning Northern Ireland. Allegations were also made by journalists. Indeed, the Minister for Justice, when in Opposition, felt the allegations were serious enough to warrant a public inquiry.

I should like to quote the following from the Official Report, Volume 296, column 1770:

Mr. G. Collins: Would the Minister not agree that because of the allegations that are being made, and being made in increasing numbers, the best way and the only way to clear the good name of the Garda would be to have a public inquiry, judicial or otherwise, into the allegations?

Further it appears that the Taoiseach, when Leader of the Opposition, called for the setting up of an independent tribunal to look into the allegations following the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis in February, 1977. Later that month the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party supported the demands for an independent inquiry. During this period public concern had been raised about the possible infringement of the civil and human rights of arrested persons and about the possibility that some members of the Garda Síochána were directly involved in such infringements. Public concern has been raised again to such a level that a full, independent inquiry is essential in the interests of the Garda Síochána and in the interests of ensuring that those who may have committed the infringements are subjected to the full rigour of the law.

I should like to add that I am not condemning this Minister, or members of the Government, for the action taken but I wonder why such Members who were so vociferous when in Opposition in demanding a full public inquiry have not done so now that it is in their power to hold such an inquiry. What they propose doing falls far short of what should be done. The measures adopted by the Government are inadequate because they do not provide in any meaningful way for the full investigation into the allegations that have been made about ill-treatment in the past. This is grossly unfair to those who allege they have been maltreated and to the good reputation of the Garda Síochana.

Public concern has been raised to such a level in relation to this matter that justice must not only be done but be seen to be done. I have no doubt that the Minister will say that he has assigned one or more senior Garda officers to investigate individual complaints and to report directly to the Director of Public Prosecutions. This has been presented as being sufficient but, in fact, it is not. As the Irish Council for Civil Liberties point out, this response is totally inadequate because no matter how impartial the investigations may be they will not appear as such in the eyes of the public. They will not assuage the suspicion that has now arisen. For this reason the Labour Party call on the Minister to widen the terms of reference of the special committee to enable them investigate individual cases of ill-treatment and report publicly thereon. The Minister may suggest that a special committee could not investigate cases where the persons concerned will not co-operate or where there are cases pending before our courts. He made those points in the statement issued when he announced the setting up of the special committee. That is not a real objection to my proposal because the special committee would, obviously, only investigate those cases where the complainant wished an investigation to be carried out. Cases already before the courts would be treated as sub judice.

Another criticism is in relation to future safeguards. The recommendation in relation to future safeguards will be a vital aspect of the committee's work. Its importance cannot be over-stressed but I doubt if the committee can do their work effectively in this regard. They cannot fully investigate what happened in the past. For the future I should like to state that it is in the interests of citizens and of the Garda Síochána that a permanent independent complaints tribunal which can investigate all allegations of ill-treatment by the Garda Síochána should be set up. This is the practice in most democracies and it is a good one. Such a tribunal would prove to be the most effective deterrent against events of the kind which have been alleged. It would uphold the good reputation justly enjoyed by the vast majority of the members of the Garda Síochána and the high standards they uphold often in the face of extreme provocation.

The terms of reference given to the special committee are, at best, vague on the question of whether the committee have power to examine the desirability of such a tribunal and the appropriate way of setting it up. The terms of reference of the committee should be extended to put beyond all possible doubt that one of their primary tasks will be to examine the appropriate way in which such a tribunal might be established. The position of my party in relation to this matter is clear. At our last annual conference it was resolved that we seek the establishment of an independent tribunal and that the findings of such a tribunal be publicly reported. In repeating the position of my party I want to ask the Minister, and the Government, to reconsider the terms of reference given to the committee so as to give effect to my proposal. It is incumbent on the parliaments of every civilised society to guarantee the safe custody and good treatment of suspects and prisoners in the custody of the law. In this connection I recommend to the Minister that early consideration be given to the adoption by this Parliament of the guidelines laid down by the International Commission of Jurists in Geneva and in the UN Draft Convention on the Treatment of Prisoners.

While we do not condone acts of violence and murder by anybody and while we affirm strongly that all perpetrators of such must be brought speedily before the law we affirm also that all suspects and prisoners in the custody of the law have a civil and human right to safe treatment. I believe the Minister will serve the interest of justice, assuage any fears that exist in the community and will put right the public concern that exists if he extends the terms of reference of the committee to enable them investigate individual complaints and report publicly thereon. Secondly, he should ask them to advise on the most appropriate manner in which an independent appeals tribunal can be established. I ask the Minister to give serious consideration to the points I have raised. I propose to give the rest of my time to the Fine Gael spokesman on the Department of Justice, Deputy O'Keeffe.

I join with Deputy Desmond in congratulating Deputy Collins on his appointment as Minister for Justice. I wish him well in this office. I thank Deputy Desmond for affording me the opportunity to speak on this matter. The situation is that neither I nor any member of my party have yet seen a copy of the report of Amnesty International. As I understand it the special committee announced by the Minister is the response of the Fianna Fáil Government to this report. In a statement issued by the Minister he indicated, in general, the work the special committee will do and he mentioned, in addition, the names of the people who will form the special committee. As I see it, he neglected to cover the more important area as to how exactly this committee would work. There seems to be many procedural points which need clarification in relation to this special committee. Will this be a judicial committee or will they have powers of sworn inquiry? I do not know even the broad basis on which this committee will operate.

Therefore, I am seeking clarification as to the powers of this committee. It appears that they could operate in a number of ways. They could merely issue a notice that they wished to receive written submissions. On the other hand, they may hear evidence. If they do, the question is, can they insist on calling witnesses; can they subpoena witnesses? If they do, can they insist on the attendance of those witnesses? Can they insist on the production of the documents? This raises the point that if anybody is appearing before the committee, will he be entitled to legal representation? Will he be entitled to legal aid in the event of his being entitled to legal representation? These are some of the broad areas that concern my party and myself.

Other question occur to me. In the event of witnesses being called, what constitutional and legal safeguards will be available to them? As I see it, the special committee is set up for a specific purpose and in response to a specific situation. In those circumstances, one can envisage that if there is any substance to allegations that have been made, the persons against whom those allegations have been made, may be called before the committee. This raises further questions. Will these persons be required to answer questions put by the committee? If they answer questions which may incriminate them, can that evidence be used in criminal or civil proceedings before the courts?

My questions are directed to the fact that there was virtually no information forthcoming on the Minister's statement as to how this committee would operate. It is very difficult to judge how effective any such committee might be without having complete and detailed information as to the powers of the committee and how they will operate. While the Minister has suggested what the committee might do, he has not shown how they will do this. He suggested that they may deal with allegations in general, that they may study the Amnesty Report and that they may seek and obtain further information from Amnesty and then they can, apart altogether from these allegations, suggest safeguards as to future situations.

This committee is separate from the other matter which was raised at the same time by the Minister, that is, the appointment of a senior Garda officer to the Director of Public Prosecutions to deal with specific allegations. Here again, I am not quite sure where the borderline will be. As I see it, the special committee will deal with allegations in general. Allegations in general are the sum of specific allegations. This point again poses considerable difficulty for me in envisaging how this committee might operate. I cannot see how a committee can examine allegations in general without going into the particular. If they are to go into the particular, they must obtain evidence of particular allegations. This raises the question of how that evidence can be obtained.

The Minister should clearly indicate at this stage the entire range and scope envisaged to be the activities of this special committee, how they will operate, exactly what powers they will have, how people appearing before them will be dealt with from the point of view of representation and legal safeguards. Apart from the fact that he should also deal with the other points raised by him in his statement last Friday, he should clearly delineate the boundary of responsibility as between the special committee and the special Garda officer working through the DPP dealing with specific allegations.

In the main the Minister's statement on this question appears to have been completely unsatisfactory from the point of view of giving anybody any specific idea as to how all these various areas will be covered. My party feel it is absolutely essential that full and detailed particulars and information be furnished to the House on these points.

The Government considered a report from Amnesty concerning allegations of serious ill-treatment of suspects by members of the Garda Síochána in certain cases where the suspects were being detained under the Offences Against the State Act, 1939, or under section 2 of the 1976 Emergency Powers Act. Having considered the statement the Government decided to deal with the matter in two ways.

Firstly, as regards the future, to appoint a committee to consider the situation arising from serious allegations and to make recommendations as to whether, and if so what, additional safeguards are necessary for the protection against ill-treatment of persons in Garda custody and for the protection of member of the Garda Síochána against unfounded allegations of such ill-treatment. Secondly, as regards past events, to make special arrangements whereby such allegations from identifiable persons can be speedily investigated and submitted to the Director of Public Prosecutions who is by law the authority in whom is vested the duty to decide if the evidence is sufficient to justify a prosecution.

Those are the bones of the Government decision and I readily accept that there is a great deal of flesh to be put on them. In the limited time available to me, I will try to deal with the points raised by Deputy E. Desmond, spokesman for the Labour Party and Deputy O'Keeffe, spokesman for the Fine Gael Party. I thank the speakers from the Labour and Fine Gael Parties for their kind remarks on my appointment as Minister for Justice.

I am at a loss as to how to solve the dilemma of the spokesman for the Labour Party. I cannot accept everything she said as being as accurate as it should be. I do not accept that for a number of months now brutality allegations have been made, nor does Amnesty contend that is so. It is recognised that there is no question of allegations or accusations of brutality occurring for some considerable time. At the time allegations were made in relation to brutality, the Labour Party were part of the Government.

Deputy Mrs. Desmond made a good effort to embarrass me with what I said in this House as recorded in Volumn 296, column 1770 of the Official Report. I do not deny what I said but I would point out to Deputy Mrs. Desmond that when I said that the Press were coming up daily with accusations of ill-treatment of persons in custody. I am not aware of what happened at the Labour Party Conference last year. I had other things to be concerned with at that time, but I accept that what Deputy Mrs. Desmond says is true and that the Labour Party Conference resolved to demand a full independent inquiry into these allegations. It is a pity that the Labour Party, who were seemingly the people that the Labour Party Conference were talking to did not exercise their political strength at that time and see to it that they be heard. They could have done something about it when they were in Government.

Deputy Mrs. Desmond says that a full independent inquiry is essential, that the measures that we have taken as a Government are grossly unfair and that the Director of Public Prosecutions' Office is not sufficient to institute investigations into any allegations which are made at present. I do not accept that, nor do I believe that the Fine Gael Party accept it. If my recollection is correct, when Deputy O'Keeffe spoke on the radio last Sunday, he welcomed on behalf of his party the establishment of this committee and said that it was the only course open to the Government to follow. I accept that it is the only course that can be followed and that is the course the Government are following.

Although it has no connection, the setting up of a complaints tribunal, as requested by Deputy Mrs. Desmond, could be confused with this. The question of a permanent complaints tribunal to investigate complaints against the Garda is a matter requiring careful consideration, and this will have to be examined fully in due course. This will take some time to evaluate, and I would certainly not deem it necessary on this occasion. It is not being ruled out, but it has nothing to do with what is going on at present.

In relation to the questions raised by Deputy O'Keeffe on behalf of the Fine Gael Party, the committee will decide on its own procedures. It can invite interested parties to make submissions either in writing or orally but it will not have powers to compel witnesses to attend or give evidence. It will not investigate specific complains or allegations. It will be looking, as the Deputy said, at the general situation. The accusations or allegations that have been made are of a serious criminal nature, and because they are of a criminal nature, if a decision is to be made as to whether they are true or not, it is the courts that will decide whether or not they stand up. This should be clearly understood. From what I gather, the argument that what the Government are doing is the proper course, is accepted at least generally by the Fine Gael Party.

As far as I and my Cabinet colleagues are concerned there is absolutely no question that the Garda Síochána as a force is under any sort of cloud. My Government has nothing but the greatest respect for and confidence in the force. That respect and confidence are tinged with concern for the dangers to which many of them are subjected in the course of their daily tasks. The force can be assured that they will continue to receive all the necessary support from me to enable them to continue serving the community in the future as they have done so loyally and well in the past. The great majority of gardaí will agree with the action which the Government have announced in relation to the Amnesty allegations and they will be more anxious than most to see that if any malpractices have occurred in the past —I am not passing judgement as to whether they did or not—they will not be allowed to occur again. As long as I am Minister for Justice, I assure this House and the country at large, that there will be no room for allegations of such a criminal nature to be made.

The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 13th October, 1977.

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