Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 20 Oct 1977

Vol. 300 No. 7

Minister and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill, 1977: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

Mr. Briscoe

I would like to take this opportunity of congratulating the new Minister on his appointment to this extremely interesting Department. Yesterday he intervened in the debate because he said the Opposition did not seem to have a proper grasp of what his Department was about and he tried to improve the quality of the contributions from the Opposition benches. Subsequent speeches would seem to indicate that even yet they do not have a proper understanding of what the new Department is all about.

The Minister's experience and ability to take charge of this Department cannot be questioned. Yesterday he referred to his experience in economic planning in the Department of Education in the early sixties right through to the time when the Fianna Fáil Government first produced their economic plan for expansion.

Mr. F. O'Brien

When?

Mr. Briscoe

Before the Deputy's time.

Mr. F. O'Brien

Yes, but when?

Mr. Briscoe

When I spoke here on 5th May I followed the former Deputy Halligan, who was a great man for talking about corporations for development and so on but, like the rest of his party, did nothing about it. One speaker found fault because this new Department was not mentioned in our manifesto. On 5th May, 1977, in volume 299, No. 3, at column 422 of the Official Report, speaking after Deputy Halligan, I said:

Having listened to the previous speaker one feels the oracle has spoken... He chastises the Fianna Fáil Party because of their economic plans which he said did not work. This shows how little he knows about the recent history of Fianna Fáil plans.

The First Programme for Economic Expansion exceeded all its targets. The Second Programme reached all its targets.

Mr. Bruton

Come off it, may be it did ten years later.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Briscoe is in possession.

Mr. Briscoe

These interruptions are helpful.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

They are not helpful so far as the Chair is concerned.

Professor O'Donoghue

Deputy Barry said yesterday that the primary objective of a plan should be the maximisation of output. If we want to have a debate we could say that the Second Programme achieved what Deputy Barry described yesterday as the primary target of any plan. I take it that Deputy Briscoe will refer to the——

Mr. P. Barry

It is a good debating point.

Professor O'Donoghue

I make the point to illustrate that if Deputies want to interrupt the speaker and have an economic debate, we would be quite willing to do so.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Briscoe is in possession.

Mr. Briscoe

I welcome these interruptions because——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should not.

Mr. Briscoe

I do not look for them, but I welcome them.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has no right to welcome them.

Mr. Clinton

The Deputy might get some inspiration from them.

Mr. Briscoe

It is with great pride that we can refer to the past achievements of Fianna Fáil in office and the complete and utter failure of successive Coalition Governments in relation to economic planning. It was said that the Third Programme for Economic Expansion failed miserably but it was very rarely admitted that a number of its targets were achieved. Fianna Fáil have always believed in economic planning, and I believe that this is one of the reasons we are in office today. Before the Coalition came to power they were in favour of setting up a Department of Economic Planning but when they came into office they were against it. I was astonished to read comments by the Leader of Fine Gael, Deputy G. FitzGerald, on the setting up of this Department. He said it would not work because there would be friction between the new Department and the Department of Finance. I can understand Deputy FitzGerald saying that, because he does not know what it is to be in a Government working in harmony with your colleagues. These comments led me to believe that he considers we should be a bureaucracy rather than a democracy.

I felt very proud when I heard the new Minister speaking yesterday. He radiated confidence. I am sure Deputies on all sides were impressed by the way he presented his Department and told us how it would work. It is a tremendous task for any Minister to be the first to lead and train civil servants in any new Department. If Deputy O'Donoghue had been engaged as a consultant by the State, he would have cost the Government more than he costs by being a member of the Government.

Mr. P. Barry

Thank you, Deputy, you have made my point.

Mr. Briscoe

I believe this Department is a good move. It will not be concerned with day-to-day executive activities but with long-term planning, surveying the existing state of the world economy, our own economy, looking ahead, knowing when to draw back and knowing when to expand.

The fact that there will be liaison with other people in various Departments is a good indicator. The Minister said that members of the Opposition would be welcome to suggest ways in which the Department could be structured rather than criticising it. The Minister referred to the Department of Education in the early sixties which contained a planning unit to plan ahead for education. That worked sucessfully, but the Coalition disbanded that unit when they came into office. Coalition Governments always seem to destroy without rhyme or reason everything created by Fianna Fáil just because Fianna Fáil created it. That was a foolish move on the part of the Coalition.

Ministers today are so overburdened with the number of calls on them in relation to minor functions that they are very often not permitted to become involved in future planning for their Departments. As the new Minister said in his speech yesterday, it is essential that the burden become less for Ministers. This new Department will assist in this. The Minister will act as a watch dog, as it were, on events and will be able to indicate the outlook for the next six months or a year. The Minister stressed that his Department would not overlap or undermine other Departments but it will be there as a "think-tank" to set the climate for growth and expansion. This is something which we could have done with over the last four years. The former Minister for Finance, Deputy Ryan, said that one cannot plan in a time of recession because one does not know what will happen next. That is the time when one must plan ahead. Mr. Harold Wilson once said that in a time of recession one can pull the string too tight but it cannot be pushed back again. Fianna Fáil have always known just how tight to pull that string in times of recession. It is vital to have a Department of Economic Planning in times of world recession.

The Minister referred to the historical background of his Department. In one way or another this has been a thread of Fianna Fáil policy since the 1950's. The first programme for economic expansion was started by the late Deputy Éamon de Valera and continued by his successor, the late Deputy Seán Lemass. This debate gives the Opposition an opportunity to make constructive suggestions on the future of this Department. I cannot see any future Government disbanding this Department. It will be an essential part of Government. Other countries will probably imitate this Department very closely. This is not our first time to introduce innovations. We were the first country to introduce children's allowances. We should not be afraid to come forward with new ideas.

I am glad that one of the functions of the Department will be to ensure that existing Departments will have adequate planning facilities. It is essential to progress that this structure be created in each Department. It takes a lot of planning to set up a Department like this and the House must appreciate that it calls for a person with a very special talent to deal with it. The Minister is talented. He has worked successfully before, not as a Member of this House, with the Taoiseach, Deputy Jack Lynch, prior to 1973 as his economic adviser. The new Minister is one of the best acquisitions to Fianna Fáil in many years and the people will benefit. When glancing through the newspapers this morning I noticed that Mr. Bruce Arnold of the Irish Independent was very much interested in the Minister's speech. The members of the press inform the public about what is going on. They have a responsibility to do so in a responsible manner. The Minister's speech certainly had this reporter's goodwill and good wishes and his is certainly the feeling of the people.

If the Minister succeeds in having this Department functional by early next year, it will be quite an achievement because there is much work ahead of him. I hope he will receive all the co-operation for which he has asked from this House. Certainly the Committee Stage should be a very interesting one. In many years I do not think I have listened to a debate in which the people participating showed greater interest than in this one. Perhaps it is because it is new or that we have not spoken about this Department before.

I was very aware yesterday of the tremendous interest in the Minister's speech and, of course, in the introduction by the Minister for Finance. At one stage he was accused of being vague. One cannot be definite on every aspect of something one is in the process of setting up; that has to be understood. The one man who does know what he is about, who has lived with this a lot longer than we have—since we received the Bill, as it were—is the Minister in question. He is the right man in the right place at the right time and I wish him the best of luck in his work ahead.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

While this is the first time we have debated a motion on the setting up of a Ministry for Economic Planning and Development we have had several debates in the House over the years on economic planning and development. We have had five-year programmes and schemes drawn up by Departments. I remember that at the 1957 election there was a programme drawn up by the then Taoiseach which was highlighted as creating 100,000 additional jobs. Of course, at that time jobs were exceptionally welcome. Unfortunately, it transpired that while the 100,000 jobs were provided our people had to go to Birmingham, London, mainly to Britain to get the jobs.

Mr. Colley

That is not true. There were over 100,000 jobs provided. The Deputy should look at the figures.

Mr. Mitchell

What about the 160,000? The Deputy should look at his own party's figures.

Mr. Colley

Yours.

Mr. M. P. Murphy

A different situation obtains today because there is no emigration outlet. Therefore, jobs must be provided at home.

Deputy Briscoe painted the Minister as a superman. He paid glowing tributes to his ability and said he was a remarkable acquisition——

Mr. Briscoe

Hear, hear.

Mr. M. P. Murphy

——to the Government team. He must be a superman because the Minister said in his introductory remarks that one need not dwell unduly on the very serious economic difficulties we have experienced over the last four years. Other Members said that the National Coalition Government was disastrous. Fianna Fáil have succeeded what has been termed a disastrous Government and what is happening? Despite the recession and how badly it is said the country was doing they have produced this booklet. The Minister for Economic Planning and Development at present without portfolio owes his position to the part he played in introducing this manifesto.

Fianna Fáil were in office—and it is no harm to look back because, in order to assess future needs, one has to take cognisance of what happened in the past—from 1957 to 1973. 16 consecutive years. And, as Deputy Briscoe asserted a moment ago, they did not always play in harmony. However, leaving that aside, there were several questions posed by the Opposition to the Government during that lengthy period, questions we thought should have been answered in the affirmative and which we considered vital to sections of our people. The Official Report will bear out that money was not available to implement any of those proposals. I am referring to such matters as the reduction of the qualifying age for old age pension.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to get back to the Bill. This is not an economic debate.

Mr. M. P. Murphy

It is a Bill on economic planning. With due respect to the Chair, I am entitled to refer to what happened before the 1973 elections.

Mr. Pattison

The previous Deputy spoke about children's allowances.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy must relate his remarks to the Bill before the House.

Mr. M. P. Murphy

Previous Deputies referred to what happened under Coalition Governments when they went back to the forties. As we have been told from the Fianna Fáil benches, this constitutes a major step forward. Therefore, it is quite in order to make an appraisal, admittedly as briefly as possible, of what was the position in the past. I remember addressing questions to Deputy Haughey, the then Minister for Finance, about easing the burden on the tax-paying community, particularly that on the working section. He gave a rather lengthy answer and also lengthy replies to supplementary questions, that it was impossible to do this, that raising the level would cost so much money because all taxpayers inside the net would be affected; there-fore, were one to give an allowance of only £5 or £6 per head to all of those people it would amount to a sizeable sum of money. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle looks somewhat uneasy.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are dealing in this Bill with the establishment of a new Department for Economic Planning and Development. Certainly the Deputy can speak on planning and development but not on taxation, social welfare or such matters.

Mr. M. P. Murphy

Advancing then to 1973, the Fianna Fáil Party were defeated. Deputy Vivion de Valera told us last evening that they had used their time endeavouring to promote policies with a view, obviously, to winning the election. That was the main purpose behind this manifesto. It is peculiar that—as they assert—after a period of disastrous government so many innovations can take place simultaneously or so we are told. In the manifesto—which I know was a votebuying document—we were told that we would not have to pay car tax any more. Most of us own cars and I suppose we are all pleased to some extent that it has been abolished but, perhaps, we should ask ourselves the question: should we be? If it is not paid under the heading of car tax it must be paid under some other.

I have been in this House since 1951. In all the debates that have taken place here since then and in the many questions addressed to Ministers I am sure the Official Report will bear out that at no time did any Member of this House assert that car tax should be abolished.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot discuss car tax on this Bill; it does not arise. We are dealing with planning and development and the establishment of a new Department for Economic Planning and Development.

Mr. M. P. Murphy

I am dealing with the way this came about.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy must relate his remarks to the Bill.

Mr. M. P. Murphy

I am doing that.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has not mentioned the Bill.

Mr. M. P. Murphy

It is quite material to the Bill.

Professor O'Donoghuue

In what way?

Mr. M. P. Murphy

I was elaborating on the Minister's opening sentence about what happened in the past four years. He described what happened as difficulties. If we experienced such difficulties, how is it that all these measures can be carried out immediately after the Coalition left office?

It must be evident the country did not experience the difficulties as stated by the Minister.

Professor O'Donoghue

It was necessary to reduce taxation because of the crushing burden the Coalition imposed on people.

Mr. M. P. Murphy

The argument I made stands.

Professor O'Donoghue

It does not follow and it has no bearing on the Bill.

Mr. M. P. Murphy

It is an elaboration of the Minister's opening statement and I am entitled to comment on it. I made a suggestion with regard to car tax. We have been told what will happen so far as rates are concerned and so far as taxation generally is concerned we are told there will be a marked improvement. The Government have said all these improvements in the area of taxation can be obtained at a time when, according to them, we are after four years of disastrous government.

We hope these improvements can be made. If it happens it will be a tribute to the previous Government who were in power for four years. Fianna Fáil had three or four terms of office, from 1957 to 1973, but they were not able to bring in any proposals to improve the lot of the people. We have to doubt the sincerity of the proposals now made. It has been pointed out that the Department of Economic Planning and Development was not mentioned in the election manifesto.

How will the Minister go about his task? According to the newspapers he is charged with responsibility to provide jobs. The Government told the people that in their first year of office 20,000 additional jobs would be provided and that this number would be increased sharply in subsequent years. All of us would like to see extra jobs being made available. We know that one of the main problems confronting young people, and a matter that is a source of grave anxiety to parents, is the difficulty in obtaining employment for them. This is a growing problem, especially as we have no emigration outlet, an outlet that existed in what some called the good old days.

There is an obligation on everyone to make an effort to provide additional jobs but I do not think that is being done. We are not creating a favourable atmosphere in the industrial area. The Minister for Economic Planning and Development or some other Minister must take a stand on this matter. It is very disheartening to read in the newspapers each day about the many strikes that are in progress and that are pending. The IDA and the Government are making efforts to attract industries here but their efforts are hindered to a considerable extent by what is happening in the country. The present system has outlived its usefulness. Unless something is done the same situation with regard to strikes and disputes will obtain in six months time.

There must be some other way of solving disputes between management and unions. The present system is obsolete and is not working. This is a vital matter so far as economic planning is concerned. If we are to continue year after year with the present system in operation there is very little use in our sending ambassadors abroad in an effort to attract industry. The first essential is good labour relations. Any industrialist interested in coming here will investigate what is happening here. The Twenty-six Counties comprise a small area and we have little more than three million population. Many of the unemployed are desperately anxious to obtain work. They want to give a fair day's work for a fair day's pay but because of the disruption throughout the country they are unable to get employment. Any industrialist from the European Community or from the United States who may wish to establish an industry here will think twice about it when he reads of the industrial disruption presently occurring. We must change our attitudes. What happens to those people who are engaged in civil disputes? They go before a body that makes a decision. Generally such a decision is acceptable——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

A full debate on industrial relations does not come under this Bill.

Mr. M. P. Murphy

The provision of employment is a vital matter. One of the tasks of the Minister for Economic Planning and Development is the creation of jobs.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The matter may be mentioned in passing but a debate on industrial relations is not relevant to the Bill.

Mr. M. P. Murphy

Could a similar tribunal be set up to investigate disputes in the industrial field where people like judges would preside, hear the pros and cons of the arguments and make a decision?

Another desirable feature, so far as the Minister's task is concerned, is co-ordination of effort among the different Departments. I mentioned on previous occasions that one Department acts as if no other Department exists in the State. This certainly comes under the heading of this Department of Economic Planning and Development. The Department of Posts and Telegraphs, for instance, may have six casual workers doing a job in a certain place. The Department dispenses with the workers services after a few months when the job is completed. Why can such workers not be transferred to the ESB or some other body and continue in employment instead of going to the labour exchange and drawing unemployment benefit? It would be far better for the workers to move to other employment with some other body. The subventions they receive from the Department of Social Welfare would go a long way towards the money they receive when they are given this extra employment. The State would get some work in return for what is paid out. The Exchequer would also benefit from the insurance contributions and income tax.

This Bill invites contributions from Deputies on how things can be changed. I believe co-ordination of effort is a main factor as far as the work of the new Department is concerned. It is important to get State bodies and local authorities to send those casual workers I have been talking about to other employment. Some officer should be appointed to look for alternative employment for them. It is impossible to overemphasise the importance of employment today. One of the main problems facing us in south west Cork—I am sure Deputies representing Dublin and other constituencies throughout the country have the same problem—is to try to find employment for our constituents.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has said that about ten times already. As I have already pointed out he can only mention employment and other matters on this Bill in passing. The Bill deals with planning and development and the establishment of a new Department. That is all it deals with. The debate is very limited. I am sorry, Deputy, but we cannot have a budget debate on this Bill.

Mr. O'Donnell

On a point of order, in fairness to the Deputy, this Bill envisages responsibility for regional development being assigned to the new Minister. With all due respect, Deputy Murphy is referring to the problem of regional development in areas like south west Cork.

Professor O'Donoghue

If he wishes to discuss the appropriate organisational structures for regional development I am sure that is relevant, but so far he is conducting a general economic debate.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy at the moment is dealing with unemployment, industrial relations and matters that are not the subject of this Bill except in passing.

Mr. M. P. Murphy

I understood from the press reports of the Minister's appointment and Government announcements that his main function was the promotion of employment and that the reason this Department is being set up is to co-ordinate the efforts of the different Departments in trying to get additional jobs. If this Department is set up to provide some portfolio for a member of the Cabinet——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Bill before us only deals with the establishment of a Department and any other references must be only minor references to what it might do. We cannot have a full-scale debate at this stage.

Mr. M. P. Murphy

I accept your ruling. Your knowledge prevails by virtue of your position, but I understood that over the years when we discussed the appointment of Ministers after elections that it was quite in order——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are not discussing the appointment of a Minister. We are discussing the establishment of a Department.

Mr. Mitchell

If we are not discussing the appointment of a Minister how did you tolerate——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is not in possession.

Mr. Mitchell

I am asking a question on a point of order.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is not in possession at this stage. Deputy Murphy is in possession.

Mr. Mitchell

I am raising a point of order. In view of your constant interruptions of Deputy Murphy I am asking you why did you not interrupt Deputy Briscoe when he alluded to the particular Minister on at least half a dozen occasions. Are you being consistent?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am very consistent in this. I am very anxious to help Deputy Murphy with this, but he insists on dealing with matters at length which do not arise here. They can be referred to in passing.

Mr. Mitchell

The point of order at issue is that Deputy Murphy referred to the appointment of a particular Minister. The Deputy who spoke immediately before him was Deputy Briscoe of the Minister's and your party and he was allowed to allude to the particular Minister as if that was the issue at least half a dozen times. I am sure the record will show that.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

He alluded to the Minister by way of congratulation.

Mr. Mitchell

Why are you interrupting Deputy Murphy?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am not interrupting anybody. I am not here to interrupt anybody. I am here to try to see that the debate is kept within order. I am not here to interrupt anybody. That is not my function. I had to interrupt a number of Deputies yesterday on this matter.

Mr. M. P. Murphy

When the Minister for Finance opened the debate yesterday he said that the Minister in charge of the new Department will be in regular contact with his colleagues at Government meetings. This means that the Minister for Economic Planning and Development will be in regular contact with his colleagues irrespective of the portfolios they hold. I understood, according to the procedures of the House, that it was quite in order to refer to what he might say to his colleagues. I have been talking about the co-ordinating effort he can make to continue employment for people casually employed by public bodies and State services. We have many casual workers employed all over the country by the Department of Finance, the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, the ESB, county councils and other public bodies.

I would like the Minister to have a look at the position at the moment. When a State body have no further work for employees they let those people go to the labour exchange. Would it be possible to move them on to another public agency so that they can do some other public work? That would save the loss in social welfare payments. I have been dealing with people for a long time and I am of the opinion that people would prefer to work. We must ensure that every able-bodied man is provided with a job. I expressed that opinion here about 25 years ago.

The manifesto tells us about the 160,000 who are unemployed. We all know that there are many people on the unemployment register who are incapable of work because of physical disability or injury. Such people should be provided with adequate benefits. Those of our citizens who are anxious to work must be provided with jobs. When I heard about the establishment of this new Department I thought that it would be the Minister's task to bring about an improvement in this position.

I am afraid, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, that if I were to continue for much longer you would have occasion to reprimand me again. I have the greatest respect for your impartiality, but I think you may possibly have made an error of judgment.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is not being reprimanded while he is on the Bill, and neither will anybody else.

Professor O'Donoghue

From this side of the House the Deputy has made an error of judgement in being extraordinarily generous. He has not yet discussed any of the material in the Bill before him.

Mr. Colley

The Deputy is not going for honours.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Murphy, please.

Mr. M. P. Murphy

This is a relatively short Bill. The Minister's speech was eight pages long and covered many aspects of public matters.

Professor O'Donoghue

The formal administration of Government.

Mr. M. P. Murphy

It is felt that participants from this side of the House should be limited in their contributions.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That charge should not be made. There is no side of the House as far as I am concerned. Yesterday I dealt on several occasions with people from the Government side who were following the same lines as the Deputy followed today. The Bill, as the Deputy has already said, is a very limited one. He can deal with what is in the Bill or he can refer relevantly to what is in the Tánaiste's speech.

Mr. M. P. Murphy

The Leas-Cheann Comhairle is the last person in the House with whom I want to have any argument because he is the man in charge of procedure and I respect his rulings.

I was dealing with section 2 (2) which states:

It shall be the function of the Department of Economic Planning and Development—

(a) to promote and co-ordinate economic and social planning for the development of the economy both generally and as respects different sectors thereof and different regions of the country,

(b) to identify the policies it considers necessary for general economic and social development and to report thereon to the Government,

The function of the Minister will be to identify policies. I was giving him some helpful advice.

Professor O'Donoghue

Thank you.

Mr. M. P. Murphy

The Minister is a relatively new Member of the House. Without reflecting on his qualifications in any way, he would not have the rural knowledge, by virtue of his Dublin base, which we rural Deputies have. I thought it would be an advantage to mention these factors. Nobody can hold him responsible for the position obtaining since he is only just appointed. We all want to see him doing a good job. I mentioned the anxiety of parents in seeking jobs for their children. All elected representatives have a duty to help anyone who is trying to give people jobs. We should also take umbrage at those who are moving in the opposite direction, as some are at present.

I will not continue on to other matters in view of the ruling. You have made a decision which you think is correct. I want to wish the Minister well. I believe a co-ordinator is necessary because Departments cannot act as if other Departments did not exist. From what I have read and heard about the Minister he seems to have the qualifications to measure up to that kind of job. I believe there is an obligation on all Deputies to put forward views which they think might be helpful. If their suggestions are not feasible, cognisance need not be taken of them. We require a very firm hand on the industrial life of the country and if we do not get it the figures on the unemployment register will not be reduced.

Mr. F. O'Brien

I should like to wish the new Minister well. Having said that, I will go on to give some reason why he might not get on so well in his Department. We must have economic planning. This attitude of "Live horse and get grass" is something that cannot be tolerated. It is good to have such a Department providing it is given teeth and the muscle to act and take decisions. I am afraid that this is where the weakness will lie and I feel that the Minister is, perhaps, being "set up". Most people say he was the architect of the Fianna Fáil manifesto and of the promises and gimmicks contained in it. If it is successful the Government will take credit for it. If it is a failure they will need a "fall guy" to take the blame and I believe the Minister is being set up in this way. I hope it is not true but only time will tell whether it is true. The Government can say they were badly advised and that they will dispense with the services of the new Minister.

Mr. Colley

The Deputy is speaking of a Fianna Fáil Government, not the last one. They were the people who did that. What happened to Deputy Cosgrave?

Mr. F. O'Brien

I must be touching a raw nerve.

Mr. Colley

The Deputy is at Deputy Cosgrave's nerve.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Interruptions are not in order, Deputy O'Brien is in possession.

Mr. F. O'Brien

I wish the Minister well and hope that he is successful. I am not the type of Deputy who would come into the House in order deliberately to offend another Deputy. The Minister could be set up in this fashion. After all, he is new to this aspect of the political scene and there are a few hardy annuals who would do it to him.

The Minister is bound to come up against the other Departments. For instance, I believe that our educational system is wrong and that we should be geared towards technology. The Minister might also believe this to be true. He may make suggestions along this line to the Department and they may tell him to mind his own business. He may want to enter into the sphere of labour which is an important aspect of our economic development. He may have some good ideas in this respect but he may also run up against a stone wall. Departments are jealous of their autonomy and will not hand anything over to a new Department. however generous they are with an older Department. It would be wrong for the Minister to believe that he will receive a lot of good will. It is in this area that the Minister will meet his first obstacle. He may tell the Department of the Environment that our roads are not adequate and that our communication structures are too week and the Department may very well tell him that they are quite satisfied. At the end of the day the Minister will have a lot of good suggestions but will become a jack of all trades and master of none. When the errors are made he will be the one to carry the can.

I hope that the Department is successful because we must have long-term planning, divorced from the cold hand of the Department of Finance. In the past the problem has been that the Department of Finance have stifled development. After all, their role is to reduce spending. One cannot be too critical of their role but I believe they will be in control of the new Department. If that is so, how can any real development take place? No doubt there will not be a shortage of white papers and green papers. There will be plenty of reports from the Department which will, like so many previous reports, be left to gather dust.

I hope the Minister will be able to use some muscle in his dealings with the Departments. If he is not able to do that he will not succeed.

The Minister should consider Dublin as it is a particularly run-down area. For a long time we have been hearing about the great hardship suffered in the west but the only poverty in the country today is in Dublin, with its high unemployment rate and environmental problems. The port of Dublin has been under-utilised for a long time. Many people in the city want to stifle progress in the name of a number of things. I should like the Minister to tackle this problem because the port area has potential for development. That is an aspect of economic development to which the Minister should have regard.

On all sides of the House we are concerned with the problem of unemployment and we realise that there is no easy solution to this question but in their manifesto Fianna Fáil talked about creating an additional 20,000 jobs per year. The word "additional" in this context is important since there will always be redundancies, closures and wastage of one kind or another. Far be it from me to throw cold water on the Government's aspiration to provide these extra jobs. We are in early days yet and we all realise that the Government's commitment in this area will involve them in a huge task. The Minister will have the full support of the House in any steps he may take towards the creation of these additional jobs.

As Deputy Murphy said, the whole question of industrial relations is of major importance. It is an area that has been neglected down through the years with the result that we have structured our industrial relations to the needs of modern society. The new Department will not have any hangups and because of this will be in a position to play a very active and co-ordinating role in the proper development of industrial democracy in the labour relations field. Without such a structure we will run into trouble. At present we are witnessing the problems at Ferenka which, if not resolved shortly, will have serious consequences in so far as potential industries for the future are concerned. I may be straying a little at this point but I trust the Chair will have patience with me.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is tending to stray.

Mr. F. O'Brien

This is one area of activity which may lead the Minister into some contention in that he may have to tread on some people's toes but I trust he will be strong enough not to deviate from his point of view. Otherwise, the civil service would kill him. In saying that I am not reflecting on civil servants but they have a strong network. They operate in a certain way so that the Minister would need to be very strong-willed to maintain his position. It is acknowledged that civil servants are very good administrators so I am not in any way being critical of them.

Professor O'Donoghue

I appreciate the Deputy's concern and goodwill. He must realise, though, that what he is implying is that politicians, the elected representatives, are no longer in control. Civil Servants are not in a position to defend themselves here but if the Deputy believes that they are a threat to a Minister, it is appropriate that on this debate he would indicate the nature of the additional safeguards or powers which should be given either to a Minister or to Ministers to allay that threat.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Civil servants as such but not individuals may be referred to.

Mr. F. O'Brien

I have not referred to individual civil servants.

Professor O'Donoghue

My apologies.

Mr. F. O'Brien

I was not referring to the civil service in any derogratory sense. We all know how the civil service of any country operates. Power is an important part of any sphere of activity so it can be assumed that civil servants, like any other group, would endeavour to have as much control as possible. It will be a matter for the Minister as to how this situation can be overcome but I am convinced that he has the right type of personality to enable him to be successful in this respect. However, it is something that he will have to be conscious of. We read in the newspapers from time to time of where Ministers in other countries succumb to pressures.

The Minister's greatest battle will be in relation to the Department of Finance because they are the people who call the tune. In this respect I wonder whether the new Department will have a separate budget or whether it will be purely a co-ordinating Department. Are they to have a budget that will enable them to initiate development or will they be merely a blueprint passing on their initiatives to other Departments to be implemented? If the latter should be the case they will not get very far. We have heard fears expressed in regard to possible friction between the new Department and other Departments but there should be no friction. Perhaps, though, some Departments may not like the idea of shedding some of their responsibility and may endevour to maintain the status quo.

Another point I should like clarified is whether the new Department will be examining every Department with a view to streamlining operations in the interest of economic development or is that the function of the Department of the Public Service?

Professor O'Donoghue

If the Deputy is talking of the actual operation of separate Government Departments I can tell him that the reform of those Departments is a matter for the Department of the Public Service. It is a specific task of that Department. The Minister for Finance touched on that subject in his opening remarks and he will be dealing with the matter in greater detail in the near future.

Mr. F. O'Brien

But I take it that the Minister for Economic Planning and Development will have a role to play within the Departments in relation to the implementation of changes that are considered good for the economy and for creating the right atmosphere for the provision of more jobs and more wealth. Basically the function of the new Department will be to generate activity, wealth and movement on an upward trend.

Will the new Department have any control over the semi-State bodies in being able to examine them and to ensure that, for instance, the ESB will fall in with any economic plans which we are formulating? We must have a generating capacity within the electrical industry to meet any coming expansion. Will the new Department be able to say: "We want this done", or make suggestions? They should be able to go into every aspect of our economic life and to instruct rather than request that things be done. The IDA play a very important role in the industrial development of this nation and they have done excellent work on job creation. Will the new Department be able to ensure that they will continue to play their part in the creation of jobs? It is not enough to set up these bodies, finance them and let them work away on their own. We have to do all that, but it is important that a Department such as the one being set up should be able to examine the role of the IDA. Córas Tráchtála and so on to ensure that they are doing their work.

Our great social problem today is unemployment. We all wish that we could remedy it. The Minister will be preoccupied with it in ensuring that we can develop our job potential to its maximum. Given the whole area of what he has to do he has a great responsibility. He has not a great deal of authority; he has not a great amount of muscle, and he should seek that for his own development because this Department could very quickly make or break his political future. He could find himself thrown in at the deep end at an early stage without the force of some sanctions within his Department, and this could create difficulties for him.

The whole area of our infrastructure needs to be examined. In Dublin county alone there are hold-ups in industrial development because the infrastructure is not there. As a result industry cannot move on to sites. The money that should be forthcoming from other Departments is not there and this again results in hold-ups. This is an area in which the Minister could exercise his guidance to ensure that the various Departments know at budget time how the money can be used to the best advantage in job development and social development. The area that is most underdeveloped at the moment is Dublin city. The Minister, being a Dublin Deputy, must fully realise that, although he may not represent the constituency which suffers most in that respect. I represent a constituency which has very high unemployment. Consequently I am very conscious of it and if I do overstate a little I pray for indulgence because I believe that the potential for job development is here. When one asks a question regarding development in Dublin one is told that we cannot really develop the inner city because we have not the land, we have not got this and we have not got that. I say that we have. The new Department will be examining all these aspects and forcing the hand of the local authorities and statutory bodies such as the Port and Docks Board.

Debate adjourned.

The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 25th October, 1977.