asked the Minister for Education if he will state, in relation to each of the following schools; (1) Maria Assumpta secondary school, Gardiner Street, Dublin, (2) the Dominican secondary school, Eccles Street, Dublin, and (3) the Holy Faith Convent secondary school, Dominick Street, Dublin, (a) the number of pupils in each of the last three years; (b) the number of staff in receipt of incremental salaries in each of the last three years; (c) the amount of money paid to teachers in each school for incremental salaries and posts of responsibility in 1976-77; (d) the amount of money paid to each school by the Department by way of capital building or equipment grants or loans in the last 15 years; if any conditions or guarantees were required from the schools in relation to such grants or loans; and, if so, the conditions or guarantees.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Dublin Secondary Schools.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle statistical information is given in the form of a tabular statement in relation to the number of pupils in each of the schools on 30 September 1975, 1976 and 1977, the number of teachers in receipt of incremental salary in the school years 1974-5, 1975-6 and 1976-7 and the total amount paid by way of incremental salary in the case of each of the schools in the school year 1976-7.
No capital grants were paid to two of the three schools under the secondary school building grants scheme. In the case of Dominican Convent secondary school, Eccles Street, grants in the order of a total of £5,000 were paid towards the cost of minor works. In the circumstances no conditions or guarantees were applicable.
Following is the statement:
|
Pupils |
1975 |
1976 |
1977 |
|
Maria Assumpta, Gardiner Street |
180 |
208 |
195 |
|
Dominican Convent, Eccles Street |
829 |
800 |
731 |
|
Holy Faith Convent, |
|||
|
Dominick Street |
346 |
374 |
399 |
|
Teachers |
1974-75 |
1975-76 |
1976-77 |
|
Maria Assumpta, Gardiner Street |
11 |
11 |
11 |
|
Dominican Convent, Eccles Street |
44 |
44 |
43 |
|
Holy Faith Convent, |
|||
|
Dominick Street |
18 |
18 |
19 |
The total amount paid by way of incremental salaries to the staffs of each of the schools, including allowances in respect of posts of responsibility, was of the following order:
|
Maria Assumpta |
£43,000 |
|
Dominican Convent |
£188,000 |
|
Holy Faith Convent |
£77,000 |
If no capital funds were given to two of the three schools and this sum of £5,000 was given without condition to the third school for building works, does the Minister therefore consider that he has no responsibility in regard to ensuring the continuation in operation of these schools?
I have strongly expressed the desirability of the retention of the school in question, to which this small grant for minor works was made but I want to put it on record that it is, in fact, a private school and as far as I am concerned the people who own the school have the same right to sell it as the Deputy has to sell his own house.
Is the Minister aware that no public money has gone into my house——
I doubt that; it must be a very big one.
—and that a considerable amount of public money has gone directly and indirectly to this school? Is the Minister satisfied with the situation that people have the right to sell a school in the same way as they would sell a private house?
The Minister is neither satisfied nor complacent. He is determined to provide, in whichever type of school, enough places for the students who need them in the city of Dublin and in the country in general.
I wish to ask the permission of the Chair to raise the subject matter of Question No. 9 on the Adjournment.
I shall communicate with the Deputy.
12.
asked the Minister for Education if he will state, in relation to Maria Assumpta school, Gardiner Street; Dominican College, Eccles Street; and Holy Faith school, Dominick Street, whether the schools in question are considered by his inspectorate to be providing a satisfactory standard of education.
The answer is in the affirmative.
Will the Minister take this into consideration when dealing with any request or notification from the authorities of the schools concerned in relation to the possible closure of the schools? Does he not think it extraordinary that schools which are reaching the standard sought by the Department are now closing down?
I should like the Deputy to repeat the words in the middle of his question about requests to close down—is that what the Deputy said?
Notifications or requests.
I personally regret that any school, which I think when it has been a certain length of time in existence develops its own geist or spirit, should die. I am on record on that and I have also said it to the authorities of the one school with which I was in consultation. One of the schools had already given notice to the Department several years ago that it was closing down. This having been said and having stated that the standards are high in the schools concerned, I must repeat that I have no power in the matter in regard to the closing down of the schools. I hope that some of the schools that indicated they were closing have not taken a final decision on the matter. I would also hope that they would be conscious of their obligations to both pupils and staffs.
Is the Minister aware of the difference between a school dying and a viable school being killed?
That is a separate question.
Has the Minister himself knowledge of any other proposals which have not been made public so far to close schools such as this?
I have not any such knowledge. There was a reference on the last occasion to fee-paying schools. I presume the Deputy is not referring to these. I think it was Deputy Keating who referred on the last occasion to fee-paying schools closing down, that is fee-paying primary schools, and I have no function in regard to such schools.
Would the Minister not accept that all schools have an impact on the educational environment of our city, for example, and that therefore they are reasonably within the parameters of his Department to be interested in and have knowledge about? Is not that a reasonable proposition?
These questions do not arise out of the original question.
13.
asked the Minister for Education if the advisory council on post-primary education in Dublin have considered the situation arising from the projected or possible closure of three centre city schools; and the advice they have given him on this matter.
Information in relation to the possible closure of two of three schools to which the Deputy may be referring has become available only subsequent to the date of the last meeting of the Dublin Advisory Council on 17 January 1978. In the circumstances any matters of relevance which might arise for consideration could not have been discussed by the council at that meeting in relation to the possible closure of those two schools.
The Department of Education were advised in October 1975 of the proposed closing of the Sisters of Charity school, Gardiner Street, on a phased basis over the period to 30 June 1979. In the circumstances of the time this decision did not cause any undue difficulty in relation to the provision of suitable alternative accommodation for pupils who might otherwise have gone to that school. Accordingly, it would not have been necessary to have the matter considered specifically by the advisory council.
Is the Minister aware that in the case of one of the three schools we have been talking about——
Which one?
The Dominican Convent, Eccles Street, which is a case of projected closure, one of the persons directly concerned in the government of that school is a member of the advisory council on post primary education? Would the Minister consider whether a conflict of interest might not possibly arise in this case?
I think the advisory council will be meeting soon and this matter will be discussed then. I am glad the Deputy used the form of words he did when he said that a final decision had not been taken to close that school.
I asked the Minister about a possible conflict of interest relating to one of the members of the advisory council on post primary education and would he agree that such a possibility exists?
I could not agree it exists without knowing to whom the Deputy is referring. The only way a conflict of interest could exist between someone acting in an advisory capacity with regard to schools would be if a monetary interest were involved and I do not think this could be maintained in this situation. I am a little at a loss to know to what the Deputy is referring.