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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 7 Mar 1978

Vol. 304 No. 6

Private Members' Business. - Motor Insurance: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann, notes with grave concern the major increases from 35% to 50% from 1 March 1978 in the motor insurance premium rates of the PMPA sanctioned by the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy; is convinced that a radical reorganisation of the whole system of motor insurance in the State is long overdue and accordingly calls on the Government to set up, without delay, a State system of motor insurance together with a more rational and equitable State system to deal with the processing and settlement of claims arising from such a scheme of insurance.

This motion was put down as a result of shock at the crushing increase of 35 per cent and in some cases 50 per cent in the insurance premium for the private motorist. This increase will bring about some disastrous consequences, particularly to some of my constituents who have been commuting between their homes and their work which is very often in this city, some of them travelling about 90 miles a day. These people never got income tax relief for using their motor cars which are essential to get them to their places of work. For them this 35 to 50 per cent increase is the last straw, the straw that broke the camel's back. In my opinion it is more than a straw, it is nearly a stack of corn.

The PMPA control six out of ten insurance policies on cars. I understand their premium income is very large. If an increase of this magnitude was necessary for them to stay solvent— and I doubt it—then they must be very near insolvency.

The Labour Party have always believed that insurance, particularly motor insurance, should be run by the State. Motor insurance is of too great an importance to people to leave it in the hands of private enterprise, and very often unscrupulous private enterprise. Insurance affects every phase of life of the ordinary individual. It affects his employment, his ability and mobility to reach employment; it affects commerce and our standard of living. Now is the time for a proper examination of the whole insurance field to be undertaken by the Department. Private enterprise should not be allowed to do just what they like with insurance premiums.

The PMPA started off as a people's co-operative. I have been a member of that body for 11 years. I have 35 years of no-claim driving behind me. Since I joined the PMPA my premiums have increased from £17 to over £50. That is the kind of no-claim bonus these people are talking about. The letters PMPA stand for Private Motorists' Protection Association. I wonder if they should change them to being the Private Motorists' Plunderers' Association. Their premiums were very cheap when they first got their licence——

The Deputy should not abuse his privilege in this House by casting aspersions on commercial firms. He should be as considerate as possible.

This is necessary to bring out why I think these people should not be granted blanket coverage. I hold that the Minister is responsible for allowing this increase. I must submit all these matters to make my point. When this company started their premiums were very attractive. The Fair Trade Commission set about investigating insurance. The leaders of the PMPA gave evidence then and criticised other companies which were in operation for doing what they are doing now. That is the history of the PMPA.

They promised maximum coverage for minimum premiums. When they got the insurance for six out of ten motorists they became more capitalistic than any of the other companies. With no opposition they continued the order started way back to crucify car owners, workers and small business people. They have now applied for a 35 to 50 per cent increase. The request for this increase was examined by the National Prices Commission. Apparently the commission were of the opinion that there were too many factors involved over which they did not have sufficient knowledge and could not properly investigate. Therefore they made no recommendation. The full responsibility for allowing this incredibly high increase rests fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the Minister. There is no doubt in anybody's mind about that. This increase appears to have been sanctioned with some speed. In my view this was a clear case where there should have been a public investigation into all the factors involved before the increase was granted. Even still, the submissions which brought about this tremendous increase should be properly investigated and made public.

I will quote from a newspaper which, to say the least, cannot be regarded as being anti the Minister or his party. The paper is The Irish Press, dated 22 February 1978. It is stated in the editorial:

The timing of the increases given by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Mr. O'Malley, to the PMPA insurance company is significant and one wonders why they were not announced before the Fianna Fáil victory Ard Fheis. Was Mr. O'Malley afraid of what this popular parliament would say about it? If so he was right.

This is not I talking: It is the editor of the Fianna Fáil-supporting Irish Press. The article continues:

Fianna Fáil's concession to the motorists played a significant part in the election victory, and motorists are rightly angry that the saving given by the election manifesto should have to go to an insurance company. Was this really the intention of the think-tank?

I also ask the Minister if it was. The article continues:

There is no reason why insurance companies should be allowed to increase their charges at a rate that outstrips inflation.

We hear a lot of talk about cutting inflation to single figures but if increases such as this are to be given it will be very hard for the Minister to keep within these targets. The article goes on:

These insurance companies collect their premiums in advance and settle claims long after they are made.

At this point I want to remind the House that very often claims are not paid until three or four years after being lodged, by which time, in the normal way, they are eroded to half their value by inflation.

In his amendment, the Minister refers to the rise in claim costs and to the prospect of reviewing the legal framework and the jury system. We know that in many cases the settlements in death cases are for smaller amounts than for accident cases—the dependants get less. That is not fair, but perhaps it is the fault of the law and not of the jury system. Jury awards have been known to be exorbitant, but the opposite has happened far too often.

The size of these increases to the PMPA suggests that without them the company would have been on the verge of insolvency. Yet we know that they have invested large amounts in department stores, blocks of flats, garages, public houses and various other types of property. As far as the ordinary man in the street can see, they are expanding their wealth in a big way with money that has been collected from ordinary motorists during the past decade or longer. I hope the Minister will agree to make public the company's submission when they were looking for these increases. I hope he will tell us what would have been the result if he had not granted the increases. Would they have stopped their motor insurance business in the same way as several other companies did not so long ago? We all remember that when those companies got out of that type of business the PMPA were very anxious to go in and grab the spoils. I believe that what they said at that time about those other companies could be said with equal justification about them.

This company employ a number of people, but has the Minister been given any assurance that they are an efficient organisation? Did the need for these increases arise from their inefficiency? If so, why are they inefficient? Is the ordinary motorist being asked to pay for their inefficiency? Has there been any investigation by the Department of their efficiency? I do not know how good they are as employers but there have been a few disputes in that area. I have been there as a customer, or member—I do not know which—and I am getting the wrong end of the stick. From my observations I have the feeling that there is inefficiency there.

The Minister should ensure that there is proper efficiency within a company operating six-tenths of the total motor insurance in the State. Even if there is efficiency the Minister must consider seriously the involvement of the State in this serious business of motor insurance. He has a duty to ensure at least that the profits being made from motor insurance, from payments by unfortunate young people and workers who must use a car in order to go long distances to their employment—if they are lucky enough to have employment—should be of benefit to those people. Many people commuting, on account of the excessive cost of motoring, would be nearly as well off if they just stayed at home, particularly those who are married and have large families. They would be better off to opt out of work and go on social welfare. These are the kind of people who have always opted for working and who are being penalised by this huge increase.

If the PMPA are a corporation instituted to protect motorists, as they say in their title, they have no right to seek these exorbitant increases, and 35 per cent to 50 per cent is an exorbitant increase. This company have made substantial funds from premiums paid. They made this money originally from motor insurance, but they may have reached the stage of getting into the property market where they make handier money in an easier way. This has been done in a queer manner, because the PMPA set up to be a private motorists' protection association and they have started now to branch out into various fields from which they probably see their income coming in more handily than it has done from private motor owners. This is wrong and completely unethical unless the money they do make in this way benefits the private motorists who have been members of their organisation, many of them indeed before the company had ever insurance to offer and when they were struggling to get the licence to operate insurance. These people are entitled to the benefits of any investment made on their behalf.

I freely admit that I am no financial expert. I read in the newspapers and the various periodicals about all these extra profits that seem to be made and that the capital value of this company has expanded by leaps and bounds. With the big offers being made by huge insurance corporations that have been in operation in this country for years and years, I wonder where the private motorist comes into all this. I am wondering whether this company which started off as a co-op have now advanced to the stage where they are speculators— there is no other word for it—and are speculating in all kinds of property. If so the only profit coming from all that operation that the private motorists get is an application for a 35 to 50 per cent increase. I do not accept that this is the kind of thing the PMPA were set up for. I do not accept in any case that that is the proper behaviour for a company that was set up as a co-op for the protection of private motorists. I am here to represent people and to try to do what is right by the people, and the Minister of State is in the same position.

Is the Deputy insured with them?

I am, if that is of any interest. I do not think it is of much interest.

The same as the Minister?

Deputy Bermingham without interruption.

I am delighted with the confidence the Deputy has in them.

I have not any more. I do not think there is anything else open to a vast number of the people who were persuaded to change to them in the belief that they were a different kind of outfit from what they are turning out to be now. I do not think there is any doubt about that. I and many others would not have troubled with them if we had thought they were going to be property speculators.

(Interruptions.)

If the Deputy wants to debate this with me I will do it whenever it suits him at any time, but otherwise I ask the Ceann Comhairle to let me make my point.

The Deputy will speak without interruption.

The Deputy across the way was very anxious to interrupt me and to knock me off the track. I must be getting under his skin when he is at that game because I do not go in for that in this House. I believe in letting everyone make his own point and I am trying to make mine as well as I can.

I was saying when I was interrupted that the Minister and I are here to represent a majority of ordinary people. There is no doubt that the majority of ordinary private motorists have their insurance with the PMPA. Six out of every ten have. The Minister in sanctioning this has done an injustice to the majority of these people. I will quote a little further from that article in the newspaper which, as I have previously stated, has been known down the years to be a Fianna Fáil paper. It says:

There is, also, no case to be made for playing premium income against claim. The sole reason insurance companies are investing in property, gilts and re-insurance is that they can meet their claims. It is high time that they were seen to be met from these sources and not from premium income, which should merely oil the insurance machine.

These are not my words. They are the words of the editor or whoever writes the editorial for the well known Fianna Fáil paper The Irish Press. There is no doubt about the affiliations of that paper and its editorial policy. That is what they think about the Minister in this case and about the PMPA. I quote them further:

It is time, too, that the investment policies of the PMPA were analysed in public. For years this company has been buying property, garages, office blocks and recently even a department store. Why is it that these investments are not put towards paying claims instead of hitting their insured, the small people the PMPA was originally formed to protect?

That is exactly the case I have been making. The Minister apparently did not assess properly the situation before agreeing to the increase. From the wording of the motion he has tabled it would appear that the increase was not recommended by the NPC. I understand that the commission regarded the matter as being too big an issue for them, that they would not be in a position to have all the factors. If that is so all the weight of this decision must fall directly on the Minister. The editorial continued:

It simply is not good enough for Mr. Joseph Moore to say that the premium rises are not what they appear to be because of their 60 per cent no claims bonus.

Earlier I referred to the question of the no-claim bonus. Such a bonus ceases to operate after three renewals so that thereafter the full increase is applicable to the policy holder. Admittedly there is a 60 per cent no-claim bonus originally but from that point on every increase is carried to the full extent by the insured. Therefore, in many cases the increase will be even greater than the percentages I have mentioned. The Irish Press editorial said that these only apply to people who have a no-claims bonus. Most of those who have been paying insurance to the PMPA for the past ten years do not in effect benefit from no-claim bonuses because the period during which the no-claim bonus is allowed has been exhausted for many years. Consequently, the increase being levied will apply to all of these people. An increase of between 35 and 50 per cent takes no account of the no-claim bonus but is levied on the total premium.

I am informed reliably that the PMPA are very slow in paying claims, that payment can be delayed for as long as three years during which time the company by law, have the money on reserve, can make extra revenue by their use of that money during that time when, too, there is very little upgrading of the claim. I am not talking of claims decided before a jury but of the many claims that are settled out of court, perhaps three years after the incident concerned had taken place. The result is that the money paid after a period of three years bears little relevance to what would have been its value had it been paid three years earlier when the claim was made.

I know of a person who approached the PMPA recently in regard to obtaining cover for his car. This would have been his first insurance in his own name because for many years he had been supplied with a company car. Although he had a great deal of driving experience he was quoted a figure of £312 for a third-party, fire and theft policy. That is the sort of thing that is going on in insurance generally but particularly in the PMPA. They seem to have no set rate and ask for whatever amount they wish. In all these circumstances it is difficult to understand how the Minister, apparently without having carried out a full investigation of the situation in respect of efficiency and so on, could sanction the increase. Therefore, I urge the Minister strongly to consider seriously the motion we have tabled.

It is time to study the question of the setting up of a State motor insurance business. The Minister may say that this would not necessarily lead to greater efficiency but I would not agree with that argument. If there is profit to be made from motor insurance, that profit should be going to the State. A State-run company would give policy holders protection as well as insurance cover.

I am not satisfied that a proper investigation has been carried out into this whole area. According to the leader writer in The Irish Press the Minister was not prepared to announce the increase to his own faithful. There-fore he must have been in some doubt as to how his announcement would be received on that occasion.

I have endeavoured to put the case of the ordinary worker or of the small businessman who has been depending on this company both for insurance cover and for protection but the Minister has allowed the company to deviate from their role of protector and to increase premiums in a grossly unjust and unnecessary manner. I appeal to the Minister, even at this late hour, to have an investigation carried out into the whole field of motor insurance and to ascertain whether it would be possible to set up a State insurance business which at least would ensure that any profits would accrue to the State. The PMPA have millions of pounds to invest. They got all of this money from the private motorist. I trust that the Minister will consider the point I have made.

I move the following amendment:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:

"notes that the increases in motor insurance rates of the PMPA Insurance Company recently approved by the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy after examination by the National Prices Commission were necessary due to the increasing rise in claims costs and to strengthen reserves consistent with growth; and also notes that the Government intends "-2">*to have examined the effect of the present jury system on the level of awards and the legal frame-work generally within which motor insurance operates in Ireland."

The Minister has 30 minutes.

As I said during the recent Adjournment Debate on the same subject, no Government like to have to approve of increases in any sphere and least of all in the motor insurance sector where so many members of the community are affected. However, we have price control, or in this case premium control, and it must be realistic in facing up to the problems which the reality of costs presents, and the Minister must take decisions which are politically difficult but which are forced upon him through circumstance.

The recent increase allowed to the PMPA Insurance Company has resulted in alterations to premia for individual policyholders ranging from small reductions over the 1977 rate to those with comprehensive cover, to a 50 per cent increase for those with third party only cover. To give an example of how the increase is being applied, in the case of a 1,000 cc car, the old position of third party, fire and theft, less 60 per cent no claim bonus was £55.20. The new position, after the increase, for third party, fire and theft results in a figure of £61.40 or an increase of £6.20. The value of the car taken here in this example is £1,600. For a car of £2,000 average value and somewhat bigger size the difference after adjustments will be £10 in approximately £100 or about 10 per cent.

The company are, therefore, using every effort to bring about a satisfactory alignment of rates to the underlying reality of costs, with the minimum impact on their policyholders. They necessarily, however, have to increase third party rates sharply, but these increases are heavily offset by reductions in fire and theft rates. The full increase falls on third party insurance only. Third party has been a heavy loss maker, and it is significant that any of the new schemes introduced by the other companies concentrated their competitiveness on elements other than third party insurance.

The fact of the PMPA's case is that the increase was necessary to offset substantial underwriting losses. Even with the increase, a loss of nearly £1 million on underwriting for 1978 is expected. It is primarily the claims costs over which the company have no control which have made the increases of this magnitude necessary. In addition, it is accepted insurance practice that an insurance company must produce growth in free reserves corresponding to the growth in underwriting liabilities. This has always been the case for all companies. It has now been reinforced in Irish law by Statutory Instrument No. 115 of 1976 implementing the EEC Non-Life Directive and it is the Minister's responsibility as supervisory authority to ensure that these reserves exist and are maintained.

The PMPA engaged until recently, when they went into general insurance business in a small carefully controlled way, in motor insurance, acknowledged as the least profitable sector of insurance in recent years. This fact cannot be contested. It is the fastest growing insurance company in Ireland and in less than ten years they have captured nearly 70 per cent of the private car insurance market. This has made it all the more necessary for the company to maintain increasing free reserves. Part of the reason for the growth is the fact that the PMPA have been prepared to offer cover without major limitation at a time when other insurance companies were curtailing their motor operations and nursing safe and reduced portfolios. They had virtually closed shop and refused to compete in any open sense. The position in which the company find themselves is in one sense a very great tribute to their initiative; it can certainly not be described as monopolistic in any sense, with 19 other insurers in the market, and the concentration of the private car sector with this company can largely be said to have been thrust upon them by the attitude and policy of closing for business which the other companies adopted. In addition, as Deputies will well know, some insurers left our market altogether, throwing thousands of policyholders on to anyone who would take them, rather than carrying on in a non-profit situation. In most cases the PMPA took these on.

It is not fully accepted that this was due to the lack of profitability on the accounts of other motor insurers, rather could it be said to be a transfer of responsibility for motor insurance to a company which was new, prepared to offer insurance which, after all, was compulsory on the motorists. The PMPA were excluded from the calculations of the increases given to companies in 1975. Because they had the lowest rates of insurance, the across-the-board market increases given in recent years left them consistently in a worse relative position. The present level of increase will not mean a break-even underwriting position at the end of 1978, but with the addition of investment income the company will be in a position not only to meet the EEC solvency requirement but will have a surplus over that requirement which it is felt is consistent with the size the company have now become. In other European countries it is normal practice that companies would have an excess of two or three times the statutory solvency margin.

Referring to investment income, I said previously that this was an integral part of the insurance operation and must be balanced against underwriting losses, a drop in asset values, taxation, dividend and operating costs. This company have had a most successful investment record, without which even higher increases would be necessary. The improved underwriting position which should improve all the more in the years to come by virtue of the drop of inflation rates will make it easier for the company to attract further share capital to support further growth in the volume of business.

On the question of the costs of claims there are no simple and facile solutions as to how such costs can be kept down. Much of the increases can be attributed to the increased costs of imported spare parts and materials and to the fact that unfortunately our driving habits and standards of vehicle maintenance to say the least, leave a lot to be desired. I know reference has been made in the past to the fact that if the repair of a vehicle is "an insurance job" estimates and expectations can be exaggerated. This is a very difficult matter to substantiate, but I would indicate that it is in each driver's long-term interest to ensure that costs of claims are kept to a minimum. If these are increased beyond what is strictly necessary, it is the totality of motorists who will eventually pay in terms of the increased premium.

Much has been said over the past few weeks in relation to the legal framework within which motor insurance operates in Ireland. It is reckoned that as much as 16 per cent of claims costs go in legal expenses and it is a fact that Ireland is one of the few countries where juries decide both the culpability and the level of award. In saying that changes will have to be made in this system one must be careful to avoid infringing the rights of individuals, but it is the responsibility of the State to ensure that any unnecessary waste in the administration of justice should be avoided. It is a matter of concern to the Government that the settlement of claims should take such a long time. Furthermore, the level of awards and their unpredictability make it impossible for companies to make accurate claims provision. We must see if the jurisdiction levels of the courts are suitable at present and if it is possible to reduce the incidence of expensive legal assistance.

It is an observed fact that where legal proceedings are involved there is considerable delay in processing claims. Claims are settled on the steps of the court after years of delay and if matters do go to the court the delay in having cases heard and the fact that senior consel and solicitors are involved mean that the costs of the claim will be all the more.

In the Interim Report of the Committee of Enquiry into the Insurance Industry in 1972 many recommendations were made with regard to the legal system and I can say that these recommendations will be examined afresh and, if necessary, implementing legislation will be adopted. Also in that report, considerable airing was given to the fault versus the no-fault issue. I have no strong feelings at this time towards one or other systems but the change to a no-fault system is radical having implications well beyond that of motor insurance but it is known to exist in other countries such as New Zealand. This is another matter which we must examine in greater detail.

Having explained why the increase was necessary, both in terms of the increased cost and in the light of the Minister's supervisory function, I would indicate to the House that the Department continue to monitor the whole insurance market very closely. They have given a detailed analysis of the claim from a "cost of the product" point of view and the solvency needs of the company together with their functions within the supervisory capacity which they exercise to the National Prices Commission. It is hoped that increases of the order recently given will not have to be repeated in the future.

Turning to the question of nationalisation I would repeat my comment last week that I have nothing in principle against State ownership of motor insurance. The implication of the proposal in this motion is that the taxpayer should bear the losses which motor insurance throws up. It is also striking that the nationalisation call has not come in respect of the more profitable elements of insurance. I cannot understand how the Deputies from the Labour Party proposing this motion can so lightly consider that motor insurance operated by a State corporation would be less costly and more profitable.

I could see some merit if they had asked for a national corporation for all classes of insurance. Some classes are profitable and whatever might be said of a proposition that the State engage in all, there should not be the simple assumption that the State could reduce the cost of motor insurance without benefit of a subsidy from the over-burdened taxpayer. Is this what is asked? Is this the policy I am asked to follow? Do the proposers want a national motor insurance corporation within a no-fault system where it would be almost impossible to lay a heavier cost on those who are reckless with many accidents and claims or within the present fault system?

Let me give the House the motor experience in the United Kingdom for 1976 of some of the leading major insurers in the worldwide business. For example, the Commercial Union Company had premiums of £393 million with an underwriting loss of £22.9 million. The Guardian Royal Exchange Group had premiums of £218 million with an underwriting profit of £0.8 million. The General Accident Group had premiums of £302 million with an underwriting loss of £5.5 million.

Let us consider some of the figures that were outlined in the interim report on motor insurance—this is the committee of inquiry into the insurance industry. On page 117 of that report it referred to the combined underwriting experience of insurance companies, excluding the Lloyd syndicate, from 1951 to 1971. During that time, with the exception of two years there was not an underwriting profit in any of those years. The exceptions were in 1963 and 1964. In the other 18 years they sustained losses.

In the case of the PMPA, form 1968 to 1976 they had premiums of £40,466,475 and they had an underwriting loss of £2.6 million. We are to assume that by nationalising the industry we will change these figures. I see little ground for believing that the solution commended to us would be the panacea that the Labour Party suggested.

I consider the existing insurance industry in Ireland to be rendering a good service to the community both in terms of the policies offered and the commitment to national enterprise. Our insurance industry is at present faced with competition from the opening of our market under EEC rules to foreign insurers. I have a high regard for the integrity and professionalism of those in charge of our industry and would consider it a matter of speculation as to whether the administrative cost ratios of the insurance companies would be improved significantly. Certainly, the PMPA company have one of the lowest expense ratios. Where the cost of claims accounts for nearly 80 per cent of all costs, a drop of say 20 per cent on the expense ratio would have a minimal effect on insurance rates.

The commitment to Ireland of the life and non-life offices is evidenced by the fact that over 85 per cent of the reserves of the industry as a group are invested in Ireland. In non-life insurance, the Irish companies, including the PMPA have nearly 100 per cent localisation of assets in Ireland. This amounted to some £52 million in 1976 while the foreign based non-life companies had nearly £25 million invested here in the same year. Under the administrative rules at present in force, a localisation requirement of 50 per cent of technical reserves operates on all companies. Last year this level was 40 per cent and next year it will rise to 60 per cent. This provision has meant that as much as £7 million extra has been invested in Ireland which might otherwise have been invested elsewhere. This means that more Government securities will be purchased, and more funds will be made available directly to the private sector.

The fact that there is such a high level of investment by the insurance industry in Ireland has never been fully appreciated and obviously it is not appreciated by the proposers of this motion. In recent years when levels of return dropped considerably, the insurance industry maintained the funds in Ireland and showed a praiseworthy commitment to and involvement in the economic life of the Irish community.

I would like to deal with the point that the recent increases in PMPA rates will offset the advantages for the motorists in the withdrawal of certain levels of motor taxation. This is a generalised, ill-informed and misleading comment in that in some instances the rates of insurance with the PMPA have been reduced and in overall terms the PMPA increase will realise an extra £8 million in 1978 in premium income, whereas the tax withdrawal would have realised as much as £28 million in a full year. Even if the motor tax had not been withdrawn, the PMPA would still have had to get an increase of this size.

To say the increase is a substitute for the withdrawal of the tax is completely wrong. Furthermore, within the PMPA package, comprehensive insurance cover has now been opened up for the first time to young drivers. This is a desirable trend in that for far too long comprehensive and fire and theft rates have subsidised the third party element. This has enabled competition to be enjoined on the profitable sector but not on the third party side. Ireland has one of the lowest rates of comprehensive cover in Europe. For example, in the UK over 80 per cent of motorists are comprehensively insured while in Ireland less than 12 per cent are similarly insured.

I should like to repeat that the Government find it regrettable that an increase of this magnitude was necessary. The Minister did not make the decision lightly and is anxious that every effort to reduce the cost of claims should be availed of. It is now policy to deal with insurance companies' claims on a case by case basis. There will no longer be the approach of a global or average increase to all companies. A company's actual individual experience will determine the increase in premium it gets. This is a more equitable tailormade approach and much fairer to the policyholder and more appropriate for each company.

I expect companies to fulfil the role they are there to fulfil and to give the policyholder the compulsory insurance the law of the land requires he should have. It is believed that increases in the future will be more closely related to the annual rates of inflation and that improvements in the legal framework will not only help to reduce costs but also provide a more efficient service to motorists and third parties.

I should now like to refer to a couple of items mentioned by Deputy Bermingham. He referred to the policy of the PMPA and said in their earlier days the PMPA aimed at the safe driver market and quoted good rates as a result. Their critics then said their rates were too low. Now with 65 per cent, nearly 70 per cent, of the private motor insurance market, they must be getting a cross-section of the market— good and not so good. Their premiums must reflect this.

Secondly, since they are the principal takers of new insured that fact alone must mean they are getting a high proportion of the younger market with a higher incidence or risk. Now their critics say their rates are too high. If this is so, what are the other 19 insurance companies doing and why do other insurers leave the market? We are all familiar with the fact that, in the past number of years, three or four different Lloyds operators left the market and left thousands of drivers without insurance. As I said earlier, the PMPA picked up most of this business because they were meeting their commitments. I should like to emphasise that there are 19 other companies in the market and I should like to see them carrying a greater share of the market.

Deputy Bermingham made a number of references to the investment policies of the PMPA. Policyholders profit from the successful investment of their funds by insurers. This leads to growth and to increased competition in the longer term. The investments of the PMPA are carefully scrutinised with the aid of professional expertise to ensure that they are prudent and sound investments consistent with the need at law that assets must always exceed liabilities.

In the Department the Minister has made administrative regulations which now govern the nature and spread of these investments so that dangerous speculations or excessive concentrations would not be practised by the investment side of any insurance company. This goes beyond the PMPA. It goes right across the board to all insurance companies.

The suggestion put forward by the Labour Party that motor insurance, as such, should be nationalised surprises me to the extent that they are suggesting the Irish taxpayer should carry the burden of the continuous losses of motor insurance. That has been proved in the interim report of the motor insurance industry on the figures I quoted from 1951 to 1971 which showed losses consistently with the exception of two years when minor profits were made on underwriting.

The Labour Party should not have suggested that the motor insurance burden should be loaded onto the shoulders of the taxpayer. If the overall situation is examined, it will be found that it would be more appropriate to suggest—and I am not saying I would be in favour of it—that the other elements of insurance, the profit-making side of the business, should also have been considered in their proposal.

The only information of any consequence which has emanated from the Minister of State's contribution is two fascinating pieces of information. The first piece of information, which is a most startling disclosure to the House, and which I am sure will be of great consolation to the 150,000 policyholders of the PMPA, is that even with this phenomenal increase of 35 per cent to 50 per cent this year the PMPA will still have an underwriting loss of approximately £1 million. The accounting implications of that figure for 1978 bring me right back to the point I made when I asked whether the Minister was suggesting that under the EEC directive, the Statutory Instrument of 1976, for all practical purposes the company were deemed to be virtually insolvent.

The second most interesting figure we got from the Minister this evening was the admission that they forecast— and I have not heard any representative of the company make this admission in public; and I presume one would always forecast in a very modest way in matters of this nature—that the increased premia will bring in £8 million extra in 1978. This means that to keep the PMPA going and to protect their assets of £60 million-odd in order to keep them solvent and in a position to contribute an investment income to meet operating underwriting losses, the Irish taxpayer—in effect, the motorist—must hand out another £8 million this year. I assume that in submissions to the Department it would not overestimate that. It may be £10 million or £12 million. They do not know the extent of new business in 1978. Naturally, the company would not state the lowest possible figure in its negotiations with the Department.

The central point of this debate is that anybody reading the successive reports available to Members—there are not many such reports—can see how the chairman and managing director of the PMPA, in his submissions to the Fair Trade Commission waxed eloquent against the alleged restrictive practices of the major motor insurance companies here. There is available to Members the Motor Premiums Advisory Committee Report, the interim report of the committee of inquiry into the industry, the O'Connor Report and various reports of the National Prices Commission. We are all aware that to get clear, coherent, reliable and verifiable—I use the word legitimately in its accounting sense—information from motor assurance companies operating here is like going into a jungle expecting to clear out every insect in it overnight. There is not a hope in hell of getting that information. The Department conceded time and again that despite repeated seeking of information, even of a statutory nature, even information based on the non-life directive enacted into Irish law in January 1977, the data supplied by companies to the Department, more particularly to the National Prices Commission which for all practical purposes has washed its hands of trying to do anything with motor insurance here because of the political and major problems of handling it, is not much use.

The Minister knows that what he has trotted out this evening in terms of interpretative, subjective and very arbitrary underwriting losses reports and investment reports is, by and large, a charade. I say that as a person who has some knowledge of insurance accounting. It depends on the person one is talking to, which accountant is employed, how it is presented to the Department, and God help the Department from then on. I say that as one who before becoming a politician had to sign the Official Secrets Act when acting on prices advisory committees. The situation is unrealistic in terms of the statements made by the Minister. The rates quoted by the Minister have no relation to reality. For example, in relation to about seven out of ten policies the quotation given depends on the loading, whether there is a loading in relation to the Dublin area or an urban loading in relation to Cork. Specified occupational groups also have a special loading and there are loadings for the age of the car and the age of the person seeking cover.

The quotations presented to the Department and the reality facing the motorist in terms of getting a quotation based on his domestic situation and his medical record are totally different to the spurious reality the Minister spoke of. I recall the Motor Premiums Advisory Committee stating that these loadings, the scientific assessment of them, were completely arbitrary and, apart from the accident ratio in the Dublin city area, other loadings by and large did not have much bearing on reality. We are faced with a situation that we are dealing with a company that has emerged as a monopoly of private motor insurance here. The company has 60 per cent of the market and after that a company does not need anything else, it can do what it likes. In effect the company has said to the Minister that they want £8 million from the Irish motorists this year and told him that he need not worry but that accounts will be presented to him this year showing that it is still losing £1 million. Why does the company do that? The company does it because the managing director gaily said, without batting an eyelid, that he would be coming back for another 10 per cent. He has stated that the company will have to look for another increase in rates in 1979.

The company is now in a monopoly situation. As a social democrat I object to that. I should like to point out that in relation to the federal law of America there is not an American Senator or Congressman who would not be kicking up at the idea of an American insurance company having 60 per cent of the market. Such a company would be brought before every commission possible and ruthlessly dismantled overnight in accordance with American monopoly law. That situation would not be tolerated. No west European country would tolerate that situation. The laws in those countries would not allow it to happen but now we have that situation here and that has been compounded by the Minister with this increase.

I treat with a great deal of cynicism and jaundice the information presented by the Minister with such absolute certainty and the kind of nonsense he went on with tonight. He told us that his Department, and the expert consultancy staff of the National Prices Commission, with a fine comb went through the £60 million portfolio of the PMPA every year to ensure that everything was going all right. Who is the Minister trying to cod? Who are the people who prepared his brief trying to cod? I have the gravest doubts that that kind of expertise exists in the Department. I doubt if even an attempt was made to get to grips with the investment portfolio of this company. If that was done I know where they would be told to go. They would be told to hump off and take a running-jump off the top of McBirneys into the River Liffey. They would not get very far with their investigations.

The NPC and other advisory committees failed because of the lack of hard solid information, verified audited information, in relation to the operation of such companies and their subsidiaries. The lack of that information is self-evident and is a matter of concern. There is a strong case to be made, therefore, for a public inquiry into the situation. I would even go so far as to suggest to the Minister that he might reactivate the O'Connor Commission. I say that as a social democrat conscious that the distinguished gentleman I have mentioned could not be regarded as a raving socialist. I believe that by now even Mr. O'Connor and his colleagues on that committee would come out in favour of the concept of a State-sponsored national motor insurance corporation.

Who do we think we are kidding in this regard? One would imagine that the two PPs in PMPA stood for philantrophy and protection, that this was the most glorious protection given to the Irish people at enormous expense. They have had an underwriting loss this year, even with £8 million handed over to them, of £1 million. What are they in business for? They are in business because they are doing very well out of it and the Minister knows this. They are doing exceptionally well.

A minute ago the Deputy said they were insolvent.

The company have claimed a degree of insolvency.

The Deputy told us they were insolvent a minute ago and now he is saying they are doing well.

Deputy Desmond on the motion.

The Minister knows perfectly well that within the laws of privilege in the House and the precedents the word "they" does not necessarily refer to PMPA. They and they alone are doing very well out of it. I distinguished between alleged insolvency of an underwriting nature and the assets which a company have and maintain in a flourishing condition as a result of their investment policies arising out of the payments made by Irish motorists.

Anybody can own a bingo machine. Anybody can play bingo and anybody can have a slot machine. If you have enough fools to put money into a slot machine you will make a lot of money and your investment will not cost you very much. I believe there is a solid case for a public inquiry into the operations of this company. I believe it would be most illuminating and we would find out the real facts of the situation. The real facts, with respect, do not relate to the proposition put before us by the Minister rather blandly that between 1968 and 1976 the PMPA premium income was £40 million and the underwriting loss was £2.6 million. That kind of simplistic accounting does not cod anybody. Even the most humble uninitiated financial commentator of Hibernia magazine, for instance, would not fall for that. That is saying something in terms of financial consultancy.

I am intrigued by the Minister's comment that in principle he has nothing against—he used the word, we did not—nationalisation of motor insurance. We want to see a State-sponsored body established similar to the way in which a previous Government, not Fianna Fáil, sponsored the setting up of the VHI. This party believe it is outrageous that our lawyers should have the cream of Irish motorists' premiums. Every year they cream off 16 per cent of every premium I pay or anybody else pays. It is a lawyers' ice cream parlour. They get a straightforward payment into their pockets every year arising out of the settlement of claims.

I will say one thing about the American system. If one has a bash in America one will get a straight quotation. One will be told: "We will settle it for you for 33 per cent of the award and we will do a straight knock for knock". Here you finish up paying your 16 per cent. One should see the way some of the costs are inflated.

We have a jury system which is pure bingo. One is likely to emerge with a series of settlements which have no bearing on reality. We should have a State-sponsored motor insurance corporation. Even the Minister for Economic Planning and Development, conservative as he is, agrees with me that we should have it. The Cabinet would never agree with this. The Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy, in principle, is in favour of it. If one had that one would be able to lay down—the Government had no difficulty in doing it in relation to ground rents—a scale of fees for particular legal charges in relation to motor insurance claims. There is a certain pattern of work to be done the same as there is in relation to occupational injuries and other such matters.

The Minister for Labour knows very well in relation to redundancy appeals tribunals, occupational injuries claims and the full range of State insurance that it is no less difficult to operate in relation to them than it would be in relation to motor insurance. We do not accept, as the Minister has suggested, that it would be quite impossible to operate. We suggest there are many ways it can be done. I believe a State motor insurance system would be healthy for the country. A previous report told us that garage repairs take up 83.6 per cent of all expenditure in relation to claims. I believe that it would bring a little honesty into Irish life and into the system of motor car repairs if we had a State motor insurance system. In relation to motor insurance and the settlement of claims the bills which one gets for motor car repairs arising out of work done in garages is almost immoral in the context of Irish work.

Debate adjourned.
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