I propose, with the Chair's approval, to share some of my time with the Labour Party spokesman on education, Deputy John Horgan. The immediate occasion of this request for an adjournment debate was the reply of the Minister today to the question about the plans he has for the preservation and development of second level education in the north central area of this city. The plight of the central parts of this city in relation to the provision of living neighbourhoods, residential areas, is well known. The question of urban renewal in the centre of Dublin has received a good deal of attention lately. Part and parcel of the same struggle to maintain viable living communities in the centre of Dublin is the requirement that the educational centres in this part of Dublin should be preserved. Deputy Horgan asked the Minister if, in view of the latest announced intention of the authorities in the Dominican Convent in Eccles Street to close that school, the urgency of the question is the more marked.
Adjournment Debate. - Dublin City Second Level Education.
Which question did the Deputy ask to raise on the Adjournment?
Question No. 9 in the name of Deputy Horgan.
I understood that the Deputy wished to raise the matter of his own question on the adjournment.
The question before us is question No. 9 in the name of Deputy John Horgan to ask the Minister for Education the plans he has for the preservation and development of second-level education in the north-central area of Dublin city.
It was the announced intention of the authorities in Eccles Street to close the school. That brings to the fore the need to consider as a very high priority special plans in education for this part of Dublin. One has only to look at the figures in a recent study of educational opportunity in Dublin by Father McGrale. From the figures for the north and south city centre it can be seen that only 1.8 per cent of young adults reach university, the number reaching complete secondary is 10.9 per cent and national schools, 73.6 per cent. The possible decision to close down the Eccles Street girls' school comes after the announced intention to close down the Maria Assumpta school in Gardiner Street and the decision to be made as to the future of the Holy Faith School with its 399 pupils. The possible decision to close down Eccles Street School comes in the wake of decisions to close some schools and possible decisions to close other schools in that area.
I accept that many of the pupils attending these schools come from other parts of the city but quite a number are from the area. The closing down of the Maria Assumpta school is especially regrettable. That was a secondary top school that had developed from the primary basis and it drew its pupils from the surrounding area. From what we can gather, the Minister's answer to the closure or possible closure of these schools, is that a vocational school with 800 places would be provided and that there was an intention to extend the Kings Inns Street school. The Minister also referred in general to the developments at second level for the north city suburbs. These plans for the north city suburbs, for additional educational second level establishments extend as far out as Portmarnock. If schools were closing down in any other parts of the country at the rate they have been closing down in the centre of the capital, and the Minister of the day said that alternative education would be provided ten or 15 miles from the centre, there would be a great public outcry. The additional schools being provided on the perimeter of the city will simply be filled from the waiting lists there at present. They will not compensate for the loss of educational places in the city centre. I am not denying that economic, staffing and maintenance problems may have been encountered by the authorities in the schools in the centre of the city, but the Minister should meet these problems in an effective way. The Minister should accept that it is equally important to maintain schools in the centre of Dublin as it is to preserve residential neighbourhoods.
There is no doubt that the standard of education provided by these schools has been satisfactory. There was a question today to the Minister for Education asking "if he will state, in relation to Maria Assumpta School, Gardiner Street; Dominican College, Eccles Street; and Holy Faith School, Dominick Street, whether the schools in question are considered by his inspectorate to be providing a satisfactory standard of education" and the Minister's reply was in the affirmative. It is not an effective response to the gradual close-down of schools in this area to say that a vocational school will be opened, or to point to plans far out in the suburbs on the north side. The Minister should get the answers to the problems these schools have met with. The Minister would meet with a great deal of approval if he could ensure that the educational authorities in this part of the city were enabled to continue their work. The schools have been there a long time, they are part of the social fabric, they are near city services and so on. The standard of education being provided there is up to the standard elsewhere and the figures produced by Father McGrale suggest that it is ludicrous to be resigned to the close-down of educational establishments at secondary level in a part of Dublin where the figures show that participation in secondary education is so low. It is not impossible to ensure that there is a greater follow through by pupils coming from the area in these schools. A very interesting experiment has been going on for some years in Rutland Street. That has shown what particular and special treatment can achieve in areas of severe deprivation. In Rutland Street the Van Leer foundation assisted in a pre-school effort, continued to junior school, and I would hope that the Van Leer experiment could be followed elsewhere. I hope the Minister and his officials are examining the positive results of that experiment to see what could be done along these lines in other areas. There is no conviction in an educational policy the protagonists of which stand idly by and see this part of Dublin deprived of long established schools. It makes nonsense of urban planning to accept a situation in which these schools, for whatever good reason, close down one by one.
At the moment there is an important move on directed towards the preservation of the social fabric of the centre city area. If the schools go, then an important element in this evolution goes. I would hope that the Minister would look again at the alarming trend in regard to second level education in this part of Dublin, meet the authorities concerned, discuss with them their problems, see if solutions can be found, see if more aid can be given to such areas, examine the problem or lack of man- or womanpower, consider the economic problems encountered and find out exactly where and how we can maintain educational establishments in this part of the city.
We raise this matter on the adjournment because we are concerned not alone with the possible closedown of Eccles Street but with the whole back-ground of the possible closure of second level education in this part of the city. We believe it is a retrograde step. The Minister and his Department must be about their business and must produce more positive plans than we have seen so far on the evidence available to us.
The threatened closures of the schools raise a very substantial general principle from the point of view of the central city area. I have some sympathy with the Minister faced with this situation which is largely not of his own making but is caused by the action or actions of groups, which the Minister says he has no power to prevent doing what they propose to do. To that extent I have some sympathy with him, but we are faced with a situation of some seriousness, a situation calling for very determined and radical action.
At the core lies the central city area problem. The centre of Dublin, especially on the north side, is a shambles. In that shambles the schools are the last to go. But there is no reason why they should go and there are many reasons why they should stay and be used as part of the foundation necessary in rebuilding the centre city to human scale with communities intermingling with commercial and business activity.
City centres the world over, and not least here, have a tradition of second level schools. That is not to say that those living in the area have a tradition of going to second level schools or that the schools are freely open to the children who flock around their doors. One of the reasons for this is because in the old days the centre of the city was actually inhabited by the higher socio-economic class and these people liked to have schools on their door-step. As they moved out the schools remained and transport routes developed to bring children in from the more affluent suburban areas to the centre city schools. That pattern has remained up to now. It is still quite a strong pattern.
Part of the pattern is due to the fact that not all of the schools in the centre of the city take children from around their own environment. This is a pity. There has been a change in some respects and I believe Dominican Convent, Eccles Street, is one of the schools which has over the past few years tended to take more pupils from the immediate area than it did earlier on. Again, the Maria Assumpta school drew a very large proportion of its intake from the immediately surrounding area and, therefore, the educational prospects of the children in the area will be very seriously affected by its closure. Given the frightening low participation rates there must be, Ministers for Education, not excluding the present Minister, must have wondered what they would do if participation rates in the case of centre city children matched those in the more affluent areas because they just would not know where to put the children. We have unfortunately no plan to take advantage of the patterns and structures that have developed.
Father Comiskey, the secretary of the Commission of Religious Superiors, said in The Irish Times on Saturday, 4 March:
While the religious are not closing schools, they were withdrawing from them, perhaps the better to spread their personnel and, indeed, perhaps their cash as well among the community schools in which they are now involved.
He also appealed to the laity to play a greater part in the running of their schools. This is unreal to a certain extent. Let the laity run them by all means but let them first have the assets.
When we look at the schools, effectively all we see is a new vocational school with 800 places and an extension of Henrietta Street. What we want to know is how many new places will be provided in these two schools to replace the 1,300 or 1,400 places lost if all three schools proposing to close do so. Many of the schools mentioned by the Minister are miles away and transport routes do not necessarily suit the children who would have to travel out to these schools. Indeed, in many areas places are already mortgaged up to the hilt. In the Bayside area in Sutton and in the Howth deanery area there is already a shortfall and these schools will not, therefore, be able to take the children set adrift by these closures.
In the Evening Herald of today there is an extraordinary bannerline: Dublin Gets £10m. School Boost.
The Department of Education is embarking on a £10,000,000 building spree to provide 8,000 urgently needed new post-primary school places for the northern part of Dublin city and suburbs.
Later on there is the following:
Details of the new schools have been given in a Dáil reply by the Minister for Education, Mr. Wilson, to Labour education spokesman, John Horgan.
That question was answered a few days ago and one wonders why it suddenly found its way into this evening's paper. I give credit to the Minister where credit is due but the new schools will not be provided where they will help the children put at risk. Many were planned before the Minister took office and will, I expect, be paid for long after he has gone. If the Minister were to put this £10 million into the 1978 Department of Education Estimate I would be happy to underline that bannerline. What we need to do is take advantage of what exists and build and organise in the centre of the city its own post-primary education.
I am pleased to have this opportunity to deal with the alarmist campaign getting underway on the Labour benches. As I said today, and as I said several times over the last few days, there is no certainty that Eccles Street school will close. Those who speak as if a decision to close had already been made are not helping the situation in any way.
With regard to Maria Assumpta, which has suddenly become a cause for alarm for Deputy O'Leary, the decision to close this school was taken three years ago when the Deputy was a Minister in Government. Did I or anybody else hear one squeak from him then about the closure of the Maria Assumpta school? Not a single squeak. Not one word. Perhaps the close and professional interest which Deputy Keating is taking in the constituency now has prompted Deputy O'Leary to take a greater interest in 1978 than he was able to take in 1975. Did I hear a word from Deputy O'Leary, a Minister of the then Government, when, in 1974, the Dominick Street school was threatened with closure? Not a single squeak, but suddenly now there is an enhanced interest in education in Dublin north-central and I think it is not entirely unconnected with the fact that Deputy Keating is keeping the former Minister on his toes.
The Beresford Training Centre.
I did not interrupt the Deputy and I do not intend to allow him to interrupt me. I am fully convinced that the policy of the living inner city which was mentioned by both Deputy O'Leary and Deputy Horgan is sound. I fully subscribe to it and in so far as I can keep life in it educationally I shall do so.
The specific question put down and about which we had had enormous talk which I decry—it can only do harm to pupils and parents in the area —was:
To ask the Minister for Education the plans he has for the preservation and development of second level education in the north central area of Dublin city.
Beginning with preservation, I want to say, first, that both Deputies, seeing the weakness in their case did admit that people were coming in from outside to schools in that specific area, but I intend to preserve and enlarge, if necessary, the following existing schools in the north city centre area: St. Josephs, CBS, Fairview; Rosminian College, Grace Park Road, Drumcondra, a new community school; CBS Brunswick Street; O'Connell Schools, North Richmond Street, Coláiste Mhuire, Parnell Square; Belvedere College, Great Denmark Street; Loreto College, North Great Georges Street; St. Joseph's Stanhope Street, which is a new one; St. Theresa's College, Presentation Convent, George's Hill; St. Joseph's secondary school, Mountjoy Street; Mount Carmel secondary school, Sisters of Charity, Kings Inn Street; and also vocational schools, Marino vocational school; Parnell Square vocational school; and North Strand vocational school. Parnell Square, as I already told the House, and Great Denmark Street are still in existence but they are to be replaced by an 800 pupil new school. Dublin Vocational Education Committee thought they had a site for that school; now unfortunately it seems that the possibility of using that site no longer exists but they are still actively in search of a site for a school in that area. This relates to the word "preservation" which was used in the Deputy's question.
Now, to cover the point made by both Deputies that into this area people come from various other areas, I want to list the new schools that are being developed and, rather ungenerously, they were referred to by Deputy Horgan, again by people who have a new found interest in the place for whatever reason it may be. Generally in the north city there is a movement from the suburbs into the centre city as was admitted. Deputy Horgan made an attempt to give socio-economic reasons for it and, to a certain extent, his reasons are valid. But I want to point out again that the VEC are planning an 800 pupil school for the north central area; that there are four community schools to take 1,000 each which will have an effect on the whole area. North central does not become an educational unit because a Minister in the former Government decided it was going to be a constituency nor does it become an education unit suddenly because a professional educationalist, Deputy Keating is expressing interest in it and so arouses the interest of the Labour Party.
Blakestown, 1,000 pupils, Bayside, Sutton; Corduff; Ayrfield, The Donahies; Portmarnock, Beaumont-Artane, Swords vocational school, Rosminian school, Drumcondra; Castleknock community school are all planned for the area and will have an effect, as I said, on the intake into all schools in the area. It is ridiculous to try to divide up educational units on the basis of a political constituency however much they motivate people to raise educational questions here. I am not complaining about that but I just want to point out to the House what the whole game it about.
In regard to Kings Inn Street convent—these are developments—I have approved a major scheme of extension and re-construction in this secondary school. Accommodation will be provided there for 475 girls at an estimated cost of almost £500,000. Planning is well advanced and it is hoped that work will begin this summer. I already mentioned Stanhope Street Convent. A new school to accommodate 500 girls was completed in that area last year. An extension to Marino vocational school has recently been completed to add to the intake possibilities there.
The Minister has only one minute more.
I will not be interrupted by Deputy O'Leary. I did not interrupt him while I listened to him making the most ridiculous suggestions about education in his constituency simply because Deputy Keating knows more about it than he does and is working harder.
The Minister's time is almost up.
Finally, Phase Two of a project to provide additional accommodation for 350 pupils at the North Strand vocational school is under active consideration in my Department. Just to make a general statement on the whole business of alarmist talk about education in the north city—so long as this Government are in office and so long as I am charged with the responsibility of providing places on the north side or the south side of Dublin or in rural Ireland, I will discharge that responsibility without fear or favour.
The Dáil adjourned at 9 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 8 March, 1978.