Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 30 May 1978

Vol. 307 No. 1

Adjournment Debate . - Substandard Schools .

Mr. E. Collins

: I should like to express my thanks to the Minister, and the Chair, for accepting this question. The reason I raised it is my concern in relation to the statement by the INTO at a special conference that they will withdraw their services in sub-standard schools as and from 3 October next. It transpires that there are about 700 to 800 such schools although I am awaiting confirmation of the exact number. I am surprised at the silence of a number of committees of management on this subject. Nevertheless, the threat of the INTO to repeat a withdrawal of service which they carried out in 1967 must obviously cause concern to me, to the Minister and to the House. In the past month we have had a spate of headlines on this subject. I quote from a report of the INTO conference in the Irish Independent of 30 March last:

The incoming Vice-President, Mr. Gerry Keane, told the union's Annual Congress in Tralee it was disgraceful that hundreds of teachers and thousands of children were still in primitive school conditions. He said that many schools were ratinfested. They had no caretakers and teachers or children had to clean them after school hours. In many cases the teachers still had to light fires in the mornings which meant that "arctic conditions" prevailed until the building got warm.

In addition, many schools only had quagmires for playgrounds and no running water.

The Irish Independent of 14 April reported that Seán Brosnahan declared that their policy would be “No heat no school”. The Irish Independent of 20 April carried the headline “Mice nibble through INTO chief's school”, and that headline referred to a school in Ballybrack where the president of the INTO, Mrs. Fiona Poole, works. Another interesting headline in the Irish Independent of 16 April is “Wilson's Budget Pledge” The article reads:

An early meeting will be held between the Minister for Education, Mr. Wilson, and the executive of the INTO, which yesterday decided to pull out members from hundreds of sub-standard schools after October 3 next. The Minister told the Sunday Independent he would be meeting the teachers shortly.

I should like the Minister to say what happened at that meeting in relation to the sub-standard schools which are scattered throughout the country. Between last April and now, which is more than a month, he should have had a full survey of the situation and should be able to report to the House on the results of his inquiries into this matter.

The headline "School closed because it was overrun by mice" in The Irish Times of 18 April, refers to a national school in north County Dublin which had to be closed for a week because it was overrun by mice. The Irish Times of 13 March carries a comprehensive article on the INTO Conference in Tralee. It is obvious that the teachers are annoyed about the situation and about the lack of finance for maintenance and improvements which are necessary to ensure that all our primary schools remain in good condition.

The present £8 State subsidy for maintenance, which was announced by Mr. Peter Barry when he was Minister for Education, and the £2 local contribution is not sufficient now. The State contribution should be raised to £9 or £10 for the next school year. I should like the Minister to give a commitment in relation to this aspect of finance.

In regard to the necessary improvements, in the House today the Minister was quite happy about the fact that £14.3 million was provided in the capital budget. I should like to point out to him that in the past year the allocation of expenditure on the erection, extension and improvement of primary schools was £13.5 million. This year the amount is £14.3 million, which is an increase of 9 per cent. I suggest that this figure would cover only the increased rate of inflation and would not allow any new improvements to be undertaken. If this is so, how is it possible to tackle the vital question of bringing schools up to some modicum of a standard for the teachers and children? I suggest that the capital sum for primary schools is inadequate for raising the standard of substandard schools. I want to know if the Minister intends to introduce a special supplementary estimate to cover the necessary improvements in many schools.

In relation to the maintenance cost, I suggest bluntly that special consideration should be given to the position of small schools. It is obvious that the capitation system of maintenance grants does not suffice for small schools. The simple economics are that small schools have a basic and essential overhead charge which is far higher in relation to the per capita cost than that of large schools and it cannot be properly reflected in a capitation-type scheme. I suggest that the scheme should be adapted to ensure that there is a different capitation grant for small schools. The grant for small schools should be £12. The capitation grant for large schools is £8 and it should be between £9 and £10. Clearly there is an excellent case to be made for giving separate capitation grants to small schools.

I commend Deputy Keating's involvement in this issue by raising the subject in relation to a school in East Wall and another school in County Dublin. His interest in this matter is quite obvious, especially in relation to schools in the north city area of Dublin.

In his reply this afternoon the Minister referred to the closure of one- and two-teacher schools. I should like the Minister to clearly state the number and location of these schools, when these schools are going to close, the transport and amalgamation procedures agreed to, and the consultation he has entered into on this subject. While I understand the Minister's philosophy and his anxiety to ensure a good standard of education, I make the point that you can have a negative value in so far as the long time spent travelling to and from school——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

: How is that relevant to the question before the House.

Mr. E. Collins

: It is part of the Minister's reply.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

: All we are dealing with is sub-standard schools. All that is before us is the subject matter of Question No. 18. I do not want to stop the Deputy but I cannot see how the closing of two-teacher schools is relevant to the subject.

Mr. E. Collins

: I am referring to it because it arose in the course of the Minister's reply. I should like the Minister to give me some indication of the extent of further closures: can we expect a large scale spate of closures throughout the country, a situation with which I would not at all agree, especially bearing in mind the long time spent by young children travelling to and from school?

I should like to know also from the Minister—in relation to the circular he sent to chairmen of boards of management of national schools in relation to grants—what response he has received, what commitments have been entered into, what costs will be incurred and also if such moneys have been provided for in the current Estimate. As far as I can ascertain there are not extra moneys available for this very important task.

In passing I should like to refer to the need for remedial teachers to be appointed.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

: I am sorry, Deputy, we are dealing with one subject only, substandard schools. That is all we can deal with.

Mr. E. Collins

: I mentioned it in passing in so far as that the smaller schools cannot afford such remedial teachers. There is a very good case for the concept of sharing remedial teachers because the need for them arises especially in substandard small schools. Some kind of policy is warranted in this area.

I should like to refer also to the question of the schools under the Minister's direct control and to inquire if he is satisfied that all of these schools are up to the standard he would like.

I am satisfied that the extent of the sub-standard schools is quite evident. I am satisfied also that the Minister has not at his disposal the requisite moneys to rectify the position, as it has now evolved. I am satisfied further that the action threatened by the Irish National Teachers' Organisation will take place. If it does take place the blame will lie squarely on the Minister's doorstep, because he has been given, so to speak, the entire spring and summer to rectify the situation. I want to know from him now quite specifically what steps he has taken to spend moneys on such schools and where such moneys will come from. I want a further assurance from him that the threatened withdrawal of service by national teachers will not take place. It is important to establish that now before the Dáil adjourns for the summer recess.

Minister for Education (Mr. Wilson)

: Let me say that I appreciate very much the concern of Deputy E. Collins for the school-going population. I know that that is what motivated him to ask for this brief adjournment debate. During the course of his contribution he used the words "I am satisfied" on a number of occasions. He is at fault in being satisfied about certain things which are based, as he said himself, mainly on headlines in newspapers and not on research carried out carefully and facts carefully ascertained and verified.

The Deputy spoke about 700 to 800 substandard schools and said that he was surprised at the silence of boards of management. I appreciate his thought in that regard. Were there so many sub-standard schools then the silence of the boards of management would be not merely surprising but crassly negligent. The Deputy referred to a meeting with the INTO which was mentioned some time in April and said that a long time had passed between then and now. I want to tell the Deputy that the INTO do not want to meet me on this subject until after their own survey. That is their expressed wish.

The Deputy referred briefly to amalgamations in the context of there being substandard schools in situations where amalgamations are mooted, in other words, if a central school were provided—one of the many fine, commodious and well appointed central schools we are building at present that will stand comparison with those being built in any country in the world—in those circumstances there may be schools which, for one reason or another, are the subject of some controversy, where people do not want to see them go even though facilities cannot be provided in them.

The position is this: my general policy is well known. I do not intend to exert any bully-boy tactics on parents, citizens, in any part of the country. But I want to express very forcefully my view, that, in certain circumstances, there is no alternative to providing a central school where the very finest facilities are available, facilties specifically connected with the teaching work in the school and the general atmosphere, that only the very best accommodation is good enough for the children and that, at times, there are parents who are very shortsighted and in fact damaging to their children's prospects. A census of the accommodation and facilities in national schools is undertaken periodically by the Department of Education. Since I came to office I have sent out letters to my inspectors asking them to report right up-to-date on this matter. For example, there was a full census taken in 1974. At that time the position about sanitation, heating and drinking water was ascertained. At that time the position was that 3,301 schools had indoor or outdoor flush toilets; 3,050 schools had oil-fired central heating or electric heating; 3,003 schools had a supply of drinking water available. Since then there has been quite a number of new schools erected and a number of the smaller schools with poor facilities have been closed. Therefore, it seems quite clear to anybody that the position has improved since then. The exact figures will be available to me when my own survey has been completed, which I hope will be in the very near future.

The total number of primary schools in the country is 3,508. In view of the figures I have given and of the conclusions that can be drawn from the fact that many new schools have been built in the meantime and many old schools closed, it is quite clear to me that it is a very poor mathematician who can say that 700 to 800 schools are substandard with regard to these particular points. The system dates back to the early part of the last century and there are bound to be some schools not up to standard. The capital provision in the Book of Estimates for national schools is, as Deputy Collins has said, £14,300,000. On the principle which has always been adhered to in this House of comparing like with like, that compares favourably—I am not talking about the outturn which is a different thing altogether—with what was provided in the Book of Estimates—£11.5 million—at the corresponding time last year, that is in 1977. I want that to be carefully noted by the House.

Mr. E. Collins

: Can we expect a Supplementary Estimate?

Mr. Wilson

: The Deputy can take it that £14,300,000 is the figure in the Book of Estimates as compared with £11.5 million at the same time last year, and it is important to reflect on that. These are substantial provisions by any standards and will be used by me for the building of new schools and the repair of old schools. I stated in this House today that the schools which lack modern facilities are mainly small one- and two-teacher schools, and in an effort to speed up improvement on any of these schools that were to be kept open for any considerable period a circular was issued by me in August 1977. This circular went to boards of management authorising them to carry out on their own initiative essential improvements to these schools in accordance with guidelines which were provided. The number of applications received at the time was approximately 200. The processing of these applications is a matter for arrangement between boards of management and the OPW. The OPW are concerned when the board of management have brought the project to tender stage.

I have already referred to the fact that mention was made of 800 sub-standard schools. That figure is taken from the air and there is no evidence to support it. I think that Deputy Collins will accept that there is something wrong with the mathematics somewhere. I appreciate that standards are rising all the time, and the old saying was that the Ritz is open to everybody. I am talking about reasonable facilities; I am not talking about luxurious facilities that do not exist on the education scene in any country to my knowledge.

Mr. E. Collins

: The Minister will appreciate that they are not my figures.

Mr. Wilson

: Quite so, but I would challenge the Deputy only in questioning his accepting figures from sources which have not necessarily verified them, from headlines and so on. When in the House of Parliament of this country, An Dáil, statements are made about important public matters they should be as a result of research and of figures that have been properly verified and taken from the proper sources.

Mr. E. Collins

: Is the Minister saying that the president of the INTO is not a reputable source?

Mr. Wilson

: I would not suspect the Deputy of trying to embroil me with the INTO. There would be no point in such embroilment because in this matter of schools and the standard of schools our objectives are identical. When figures are issued they should be verified and should be given as the result of research properly carried out. People are all the time comparing our schools with schools of other countries. I find this lap-dog attitude somewhat dismaying and a little out of date. This country is now reaching the stage in its development when it is sure of itself, and I say again that we have produced very fine modern schools in recent years which stand comparison with any schools in any country in the world. I am personally as much concerned about the physical quality of the schools and as confident of the quality of the people teaching in them as is any organisation. Since 1922 as regards building schools and replacing obsolete schools and as far as concern for schools goes, this country has not on the whole been found wanting. I shall continue while holding this office to strive to improve the facilities.

I appreciate that a substantial capital sum of money has been voted for this year. I will not be satisfied so long as there is in existence in this country even one school the standard of which can be challenged. The Deputy who raised the matter on the Adjournment can be assured that the boards of management, the teachers' union and Department of Education have the same objective. In so far as it concerns me—and it concerns me percentagewise very considerably—I assure him that this part of the education scene will not be neglected.

The Dáil adjourned at 8.55 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 31 May 1978.