asked the Taoiseach if his recent statement (details supplied) as to the likelihood of our entering the EMS indicates a reversal of the approach adopted by him at the Bremen meeting.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - European Monetary System.
1.
No. My approach remains as adopted in Bremen and stated in the House on 17 October—that if the circumstances are right we will be joining the system.
Would the Taoiseach agree that the prospect of British involvement in the European Monetary System was more likely at the time of the Bremen meeting than it is now and, therefore, is his statement at the time of the Bremen meeting that we had the capacity to leave the sterling club when we wished consistent with his more recent speech to the chartered accountants in which he pointed out the dangers of a break with sterling?
The Deputy's question was prompted by a newspaper heading rather than what I said. The Deputy was kind enough to supply the reference to the Dáil question office which said "Lynch doubtful about joining Monetary System". In fact, what I said was that I did not know if Ireland would join the European Monetary System. With regard to the first part of the Deputy's supplementary question, I am not aware of any material change now in the British attitude as compared with that expressed in Bremen. I do not think they have indicated one way or the other what their attitude will be finally. What I said in Bremen and what I said in the course of the debate here still obtain.
Would the Taoiseach agree that reports over the past few days suggest there is less likelihood of British involvement in the EMS? Would he agree this makes more acute the necessity for getting an adequate transfer of resources if we join the EMS and Britain does not? In his speech on 1 November the Taoiseach pointed out the possibility of our currency revaluing against the British. Therefore, there is a danger to Irish jobs based on the export market to Britain. That problem arises.
Could we have questions asked without being couched in a long statement?
It is true that there was a reference in The Financial Times yesterday, but I do not know to whom that reference could be attributed, to doubts obtaining in Britain about joining. I do not think it was an official release. So far as I know, no credit for it was given to any member of the British Government. I said at the lunch to which the Deputy refers that, in the event of the Irish £ being of greater value than the British £, if Britain had not joined the system, that would pose certain problems for us.
For Irish jobs.
In view of the fact that when the Minister for Finance returned from his meeting in Bonn he made such optimistic comments upon the terms on which we would join the EMS, why does the Taoiseach, as reported in the newspapers, now consider it desirable to undertake an extensive visit to the heads of the Governments of France, Germany and possibly Britain?
Is the Deputy finished? He is still standing.
For the moment.
The Minister for Finance went to Bonn to discuss technical details. It was reasonable for him to give an indication that he met with a favourable response from those he met in Bonn. It is right that I should go too after the Minister for Finance has finished his round of talks with his counterparts in the different member countries to meet my counterparts to ensure that whatever advantage might lie in my meeting them will be available to us and that no opportunity will be lost to ensure that.
The Taoiseach said the Minister's discussions involved technical details. Did they include or exclude the monetary transfer of resources to us in the event of our joining the EMS?
We are getting away from the original question.
I do not think so.
The simple answer is yes.
Would that not be the major consideration in our approach?
There are many things involved.
In the light of subsequent comments by the Minister, could I ask the Taoiseach whether it was made clear when the figure of £650 million was originally submitted that that was the figure which would be required on the hypothesis of British entry and, if Britain did not enter, a higher figure would be required, as the Minister is now saying? Was that explicit in the document originally submitted?
I will not go into the details of the document originally submitted. These are matters of confidence even though one is not always able to keep confidence in this area. We are still in the process of examining and discussing the terms of our joining the EMS and it would be wrong to have a discussion on the details now.
Could I ask the Taoiseach——
Question No. 2. We have had sufficient discussion on this question.
Can the Taoiseach say in precise terms, or even in general terms, what he proposes to discuss with the heads of state he intends to visit?
The Deputy is a bit naïve in asking me exactly what I will be discussing.
I am not naîve enough to believe in the Minister's optimism.
It is superfluous to discuss this matter prematurely.
The Deputy is naîve if he expects me to tell him the details of what I will be discussing with heads of Government.
Could the Taoiseach tell us in general terms?
What is proposed with regard to the debate prior to the European Council of Ministers? Will the White Paper, or whatever the document will be called, be available in time for the debate prior to the European Council of Ministers?
I cannot be sure of that yet. I promised there would be another debate but I did not say when.
I raised this issue with the Taoiseach during the last debate.
I suggest the Deputy should put down a question.
He gave an undertaking that there would be a debate in the House before a decision was taken at the summit. Has there been a change in that situation?
Would the Deputy refer me to exactly what I said and in what context? I said there would be another debate so that we could debate the details as soon as they had been worked out. That remains my position.
Prior to the Council of Ministers?
The Taoiseach has requested——
If they do not listen to answers it is very hard for me——
I tried to listen but I could not hear.
The Taoiseach posed a question to me and I am trying to answer him.
The Taoiseach had not finished before the Deputy got up to ask another question.
The Taoiseach asked me in what context the undertaking was given.
I asked for the reference to what I said.
During the initial debate on entry into the EMS I asked the Taoiseach would we have a further opportunity of discussing the Government paper on our entry into the EMS before a decision was taken and the Taoiseach gave an unequivocal answer in the affirmative.
If the Deputy would have regard to the timetable he would know I am going to Paris tomorrow week, to London on the following Monday and to Bonn on the following Tuesday and possibly Wednesday. I will be going back to Brussels again on 4 and 5 December. If final details or almost final details will not have been arranged between heads of Government as we meet in the week before the summit it will be very difficult for the Government to produce a White Paper and have it debated before the summit which is on 4 and 5 December.
Are we to take it, then, that there is a distinct possibility that a decision will be taken to enter the EMS without the Dáil being given an opportunity to discuss the matter and that discussion may take place only after the matter is a fait accompli?
The Dáil will be given full and proper opportunity in this regard.
After the event?
I understood the Taoiseach not merely to have agreed that the debate would take place beforehand but he confirmed that by way of reply to me a few moments ago. Is he not now casting doubt on the matter?
Perhaps the Deputy would look up the record. It is not my wish to avoid a debate before the European Council but I was only posing the question as to whether a debate will be possible in the circumstances. I am keeping my eye on the whole situation. I assure the Deputy that I have no wish to deny the House the opportunity of debating all the issues involved as soon as we know all the terms under which we would be expected to enter.
Would it not be rather pointless for discussion to take place after a decision has been taken in December?
Nobody knows whether a final decision will be reached in December.
That is the date scheduled.
In the event of a final decision being made during the first week in December would it be the situation that a final decision to enter would be made before the House had an opportunity of discussing the matter further?
I should hope not.
Could the Taoiseach give us an assurance on that?
I could but——
It should not be a question of hope on the part of the Taoiseach.
——I am merely pointing out the difficulties, having regard to the timetable, in having a debate before 4 and 5 December. As the Deputy is aware the meeting on that date will be concerned with the question of decisions and commitments. My commitment will take account of our national position and also of my obligation to Government and to the Oireachtas.
If, say——
Question No. 2. We may not continue to debate the first question any further.
——it were considered necessary for the House to sit during a weekend, would it not be preferable to arrange this than to commit the country to joining the EMS before giving the House an opportunity for debating the matter?
The Deputy may be assured that I will keep all those considerations in mind.