asked the Minister for Education why the deed of trust in respect of community schools has not been effected; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
20.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Community Schools.
19.
asked the Minister for Education the consultations he has had to date, and intends to have, the parties he has met, and intends to meet, concerning the signing of the deeds of trust for the initial batch of community schools; if he will state a date for the signing of these deeds of trust; and if he will make a comprehensive statement on the matter.
21.
asked the Minister for Education if a final agreed procedure has been arrived at for the future management of the community schools.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 19, 20 and 21 together.
I would refer the Deputies to the replies given by me in these matters on 3 May 1978, Question No. 242, on 11 May 1978, Questions Nos. 27, 28, 29 and 30, and 31 May 1978, Question No. 9.
Consultations have taken place with the following organisations: Teachers' Union of Ireland; Association of Secondary Teachers of Ireland; Conference of Major Religious Superiors and The Episcopal Commission on Education; Irish Vocational Education Association—Mr. McCann's people; Principals and Vice-Principals of Community and Comprehensive Schools; Church of Ireland Board of Education.
These consultations are continuing with a view to the reconciliation of conflicting points of view on a number of matters. I would wish to continue to exercise patience in an effort to secure such reconciliation by agreement rather than to attempt the imposition of the points of view of individual parties in certain instances.
Is the Minister aware of the criticisms of him by the spokesman on behalf of the Conference of Major Religious Superiors? Will he accept that criticism or is he going to allow his own dalliance in the matter to prevail in the situation?
The Minister is aware of the criticism of the Conference of Major Religious Superiors. He would not accept that criticism and he denies dalliance.
In spite of all the difficulties inherent in this problem, does the Minister not agree that approximately ten years is much too long in this context? Further, is he aware of the fact that his predecessors gave firm undertakings many years ago regarding the deadline by which the deeds would be available? Thirdly, in the circumstances of the deeds not having been effected, will the Minister state if the staffs employed in all such schools are secure in their jobs?
To take the last point first, the answer is yes. The staffs are secure in their jobs.
Is that because of some dispensation of the Department or some guarantees that were given?
The pupil-teacher ratio for community schools has been determined by the Department. When the community schools submit an application for an appointment it is sanctioned by the Department. My Department pay salary to the staff——
Is the Minister saying——
I have not answered all of Deputy Blaney's questions. The Deputy mentioned that because there was no deed of trust signed that the staff may be in some kind of never-never land with regard to their jobs. One of the big problems has been that there has been too much detail written into the original proposed deed of trust. If the contractural clauses were left out it would simplify the deed of trust and help us on the road to a consensus, which is what I am aiming at.
Part of Deputy Blaney's question referred to the delay. Would the Minister not agree that there has been considerable delay? One of the major points on which there is a difference is the question of reserved posts. There is a possibility of that point going before the courts and further unlimited delay. In the circumstances would the Minister not agree that it is his responsibility to take a position—either for or against— in regard to reserved posts and end the controversy?
I agree there has been undue delay——
Indeed.
——and that my portion of the delay is from July 1977 to date.
That is fair enough but it is not true of the Minister's party. The delay began in 1969.
Those of uneasy conscience talk in their sleep. From 1973 to 1977 it was not advanced in any way.
There was no shortage of involvement.
There was absolutely no progress made and I think moral cowardice was the cause. I should like to answer Deputy Browne's question if Deputy Collins would cease interrupting. My own opinion is that it would be better if we could get a consensus. There are two views. There is the view of the ukase, of forcing the decision, and there is the view that it is better to work towards a consensus. I am working towards such a consensus and I intend to achieve it.
Is the Minister aware of the intention specified by the religious authorities of not partaking in future community schools? Further, is he aware of the refusal on the part of the religious authorities to participate in the Castletownbere and Birr community schools? Is he aware of the serious implications of this decision for him as Minister? Is he aware of the direct accusations by a spokesman for the Conference of Major Religious Superiors in relation to his own activities in the resolution of the community schools problem?
The Minister is fully aware of the points made by the Deputy. He is not too worried——
He stands accused.
He is not too worried at all about what the particular gentleman said. He is one of a number of people who are deeply interested and involved in this and his views will be taken into consideration together with the views of the representatives of the other organisations.
Would the Minister assure the House that he will not be pressurised by the statements from the Conference of Major Religious Superiors into signing the deed of trust in its present highly unsatisfactory form?
I will not be pressurised by anyone. I intend to reach a consensus and I am convinced this can be done.
Will the Minister state if religious denominations other than the Church of Ireland accept that the Church of Ireland Board of Education represent them in the consultations?
I am not aware of any conflict between the Church of Ireland and any other interests. If the Deputy thinks there are other interests with—to use a horrible modern word—an input for this, I should like him to give me their names and I will be pleased to get submissions from them.
Is the Minister aware of any attitude taken by the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, the Methodist Church in Ireland or any other religious denominations to these discussions?
Any submissions made to me were taken into account. I have the advantage of having people from both the Presbyterian and the Methodist organisations in my constituency. We are on very friendly terms and I know their views on all aspects of education from primary up.
There are two points I wish the Minister could clear up. On his assurance that teachers need have no fear about the security of their jobs, might I ask the Minister who is their employer in these schools? Not the Department surely. If not, does not the lack of a deed of trust mean that they have a phantom employer until such time as a deed of trust is effective? Only if this matter is dealt with retrospectively can the security of their jobs and their service be maintained. Is not the continuing delay aggravating the situation as between the terms of employment of the vocational teachers who were taken over and the secondary teachers when they were put together to form an amalgamated community school? Is that not worsening all the time?
Deputy Blaney expressed some kind of doubt about the position of the staff. We can get too legalistic about this. Many people are employed by ad hoc organisations. Take the National Council for Educational Awards. That was set up on an ad hoc basis. We have not put statutory legs under it yet, but we have a very fine team employed by it and they are acting in the technological sphere in the same way. Although we have not got a duly signed document or deed of trust, the schools are in existence. They are giving a very good service. The teachers are employed there and are being paid and, generally speaking, as schools, which is my main interest, they are making a very fine contribution. The Deputy asked was this not aggravating relations between two groups of teachers. As of now I am not aware that it is.
Is the Minister aware as a result of his not signing the deed of trust, it now appears that a number of community schools will not be built in areas where there is a grave need for such schools? He should consider making a final decision on this matter.
I would like to assure the Deputy that community schools will be built.
Question No. 22.
Is the Minister still dealing with one kind of community school, or is he hoping to deal with them in two phases depending on when they were built in terms of the deed of trust?
Can the Minister give an assurance to the teachers that they have nothing to fear in regard to their security and service?
Yes.
Is the Minister's patience ever likely to become exhausted?
It could happen.
Only with these questions.
22.
asked the Minister for Education if he will place in the Oireachtas Library a copy of the deed of trust for community schools, as soon as its provisions have been agreed with all interested parties.
23.
asked the Minister for Education if he will put on record a copy of the deed of trust for community schools.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 22 and 23 together.
When the provisions of the deed of trust have been agreed with all the interested parties, I invite Deputies to repeat this request.
Could the Minister say whether he envisages at present one deed of trust to cover all community schools, or a number of different deeds of trust to cover different schools depending on the time at which they were built?
The continuing discussions are on the basis of one, but I am not ruling anything out. I want a consensus.