asked the Minister for Education if he has concluded his consideration of the question of the total abolition of corporal punishment in schools.
25.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Corporal Punishment in Schools.
24.
asked the Minister for Education if he has now heard from teaching and managerial associations in response to his request for their views on corporal punishment in schools; the associations which have replied to date; the associations from which he is awaiting a reply; when he expects to be in a position to make a policy statement on the matter; and if he will accord the Dáil an opportunity of discussing such a statement.
26.
asked the Minister for Education if he will make a statement on his intentions concerning the abolition of corporal punishment in schools.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 24, 25 and 26 together.
I have received replies from all those organisations of management authorities and teachers from whom I invited views on the use of corporal punishment in schools. Their views were as follows:
Irish National Teachers' Organisation (INTO)
"The Central Executive Committee of the Irish National Teachers' Organisation has considered your request for observations on school discipline, and they have instructed me to say that the membership of the Organisation is quite happy with the terms of Rule 130, Rules for National Schools, on the matter of school discipline. They consider that the Rule is very wisely structured, and contains adequate safeguards for pupils, and at the same time it upholds the reasonable authority of teachers".
Association of Secondary Teachers (ASTI)
"That the ASTI condemns the use of any form of corporal punishment in post-primary schools.
The question of corporal punishment and possible alternatives is being investigated by the Association and our views on this matter will be conveyed to you as soon as possible".
Teachers' Union of Ireland
"With reference to your letter concerning corporal punishment in schools, I am to state that this Union is opposed to its use.
However, the Union does recognise the real disciplinary problems which can arise and the Executive Committee will draw up a document on school discipline for your consideration".
Association of Principals of Community/Comprehensive Schools
"I must apologise for the delay in answering your query re corporal punishment. I have been waiting for a reply from all the Community and Comprehensive Schools on current practice in each school.
The general picture from the replies I have received, is that, as a policy, corporal punishment is not an acceptable form of discipline and is not used in our schools. In two schools Principals stated that on a very rare occasion it was used with boys for offences of vandalism, bullying or gross insubordination. It was administered by the Principal, in the presence of a second teacher and to a maximum of four slaps.
In practically all the schools contacted no corporal punishment is permitted.
Various other sanctions are employed, withdrawal of privileges, restriction from participation in games, report cards which students get signed at the end of each class for a period of a week. If these are ineffective, parents are called in and suspension by the Principals may be imposed if this is thought to be the most effective way of dealing with serious cases of indiscipline.
My apologies again for the delay".
Catholic Primary Managers' Association
"Regarding your letter of 31st January, 1978, I asked the Diocesan Secretaries of our Association to ascertain the views of boards of management on the use of corporal punishment in our schools. Of the replies I have received the majority are in favour of having some form of corporal punishment for mis-demeanour on the part of pupils. Other comments the Association wish to make are:
The Rule on Discipline—No. 130—is fair and reasonable and if acted upon in the spirit and in the letter there should be no serious demand for its abolition.
A Clause might be introduced into the Rule stating that the Boards of Management have authority to decide whether or not corporal punishment should be administered for mis-behaviour in schools under their charge.
Consideration might be given to the question of omitting the word "corporal" from the Rule.——
Indeed.
——A high standard of discipline and good behaviour is absolutely necessary in schools if they are to fulfil their educational purpose. How this is to be achieved is a matter for each individual school and each school must develop its own policy, taking into account the general directives of the Department of Education as well as the circumstances obtaining in different areas and even in individual classes.
The school policy on discipline should be the result of discussion not only between the teachers and the Board of Management but it should also take into account the attitude of the parents."
Conference of Convent Primary Schools
"Our Association strongly adhered to Rule 130, (1), (2), (3), (4), page 74 Rules for National Schools.
The terminology Corporal Punishment is unfortunate since it has overtones of physical brutality and we feel that these words should be deleted from Rule 130 of Rules for National Schools and Disciplinary Correction inserted.——
A rose by any other name.
——Rule 130 should read:
Disciplinary correction should be administered by the principal teacher and other members of the school staff authorised to do so by the Board of Management.
We consider it uncomplimentary to the image of the principal teacher in the school if he is given the sole responsibility of administering correction.
Necessity for Disciplinary Correction:
It is a deterrent when pupils cause deliberate injury to other children or damage property.
It may be needed to instil in children a sense of responsibility for their misdemeanours and in some cases to counteract anti-social behaviour.
Education is a preparation for life in an orderly, organised community where there are rules written and unwritten, the infringement of which call for disciplinary correction.
In a home where self-discipline, obedience and respect for authority are encouraged, children will generally follow this pattern in the classroom; the converse is also true."
National School Boards of Management—Chairmen's Association
"General:
Reports from the Dioceses indicate that the present Rules are satisfactory and are observed in all our schools: Corporal punishment being administered only by Principals as and when permitted. There have been discussions at some Meetings of Parents on this subject and parents in general seem satisfied with the present position.
Causes of Indiscipline:
The home attitude is of vital importance; if discipline be non-existent there how can the school impart it? Conversely if excessive physical punishment is common in the home, Corporal Punishment in schools is ineffective in enforcing discipline.
Overcrowded homes can also cause unruly behaviour at school. Some children may have health problems, mental or physical, and we value the work of the Medical and Welfare Authorities in this connection. Some teachers may have difficulties in keeping order in class and may need advice from Inspectors.
Observations:
We approve of the traditional Irish position that Teachers, along with Parents, feel responsible for general training for life; we would deplore the continental view of the teacher as purely an Instructor in specific subjects. We would welcome further reductions in class numbers.——
I seem to have heard that before somewhere——
We believe the role of the parish clergy to be very important especially when there are problems in the home. We believe regular visits of the Chairman to the schools have a valued part in retaining discipline. The work of Attendance Officers and Garda Junior Liaison Officers is noted and appreciated.
Sanctions:
Withdrawal of privileges can sometimes be effective. Detention during school hours works well for minor infringements. In some few cases of extreme and persistent indiscipline, following consultations with Parents, Inspectors and other school authorities, a recognised system of Suspension or Referral to remedial classes or Special Schools would be desirable. It is believed that the very existence of such a system would in itself be salutary."
Aontas na mBraithre Teagaisc—Bunscoileanna
"Discipline and good order are an integral part of a child's formation. No child can develop socially, academically or morally without the support of sound and constructive discipline. Children appreciate order as can be seen from the behaviour of normal children; they play games with very strict rules; they are unhappy if others break the rules. Children from good home environments find support in the rules laid down by their parents. On the other hand, children from a disorderly home will feel insecure and look for the attention they do not get in the home from the school. Therefore, constructive and sensitive discipline ought to prevail in schools and classrooms.
The Members of our Association adhere to Rule 130: Teachers should have a lively regard for the improvement and general welfare of their pupils, treat them with kindness combined with firmness and should aim at governing them through their affection and reason and not by harshness and severity. Ridicule, sarcasm or remarks likely to undermine the pupil's self-confidence should be avoided.
Corporal punishment should be administered only in cases of serious misbehaviour and should not be administered for mere failure at lessons.
Corporal punishment should be administered only by the Principal teacher or other members of the school staff authorised by the manager for the purpose.
Any teacher who inflicts improper or excessive punishment will be regarded as guilty of conduct unbefitting a teacher and will be subject to severe disciplinary action.
Rule 130, properly administered, is fair and just. We see no particular reason for changing this rule except to satisfy the wishes of a very small minority opinion.
We realise, indeed that the issue of Corporal Punishment is a very live issue of debate but we do not regard it as a major problem in modern education. Other problems such as class sizes, remedial and special classes, maintenance of schools, adequate equipment and many others are of far greater importance. However, these problems have not got the emotive value of the so-called corporal punishment issue. Emotions can easily be whipped up in arguments which conjure up extraordinary pictures in some people's minds. Some readily confuse corporal punishment with birching and flogging.
We contend that corporal punishment is fast becoming a non-issue in practice in modern education. We are extremely happy to note that the use of corporal punishment has diminished greatly over the past number of years. We submit that the following are the reasons for this:
1. Reduction of numbers of pupils per Teacher: 20 years ago 60+ pupils per teacher was common, ten years ago 50+ pupils per teacher was common——
It is still not unheard of.
Even now 40+ pupils per teacher is common and this number is not acceptable.
Has the Minister reached a decision with regard to corporal punishment?
——With the decrease in class size there has been an obvious decline in the use of corporal punishment
2. Reduced pressures on teachers: With the advent of the New Curriculum and the freedom given to the teacher to teach children at their own level according to their various abilities and backgrounds there is far less pressure on either pupil or teacher than there was before when set standards were demanded by a subject-centred curriculum.
3. Since the abolition of the Primary Certificate and local scholarships there is less pressure on schools from the system, from parents and society to see that certain standards were met and maintained. These standards, we contend, were often quite false and gave an artificial picture of the abilities of schools and children. They also put pupils and teachers under severe and unnecessary psychological pressure.
4. Under the old system school inspection was often very severe and could put a school under an amount of strain. Children were warned ‘the cigire is coming' or even after the days of H.E. teachers competed to get ‘an mhaith' or even the coveted ‘sár mhaith' as such marks helped in no small way to advance promotion. The cigire bogey-man syndrome is happily no longer with us and this has relaxed teachers in no small way. Inspection is now carried out in a positive and helpful manner——
Has the Minister reached a decision or is he going to read out verbose statements and submissions——
Order, please. The Minister is answering.
Can we have an answer to a specific question?
Detailed views of the associations were not asked for.
Can we have a decision in the matter or does the Minister only want to get something on the record? Obviously he wants to keep the Minister for Economic Planning and Development and the Minister for Finance out of this House for the next week or so.
I am reading the answer and the views of the people I consulted who know more about education than Deputy Collins and I intend to give their views, which are well worth listening to.
Give us an answer. We are not children. We are looking for a decision, not a submission.
Deputy Collins, please.
We are Members of Parliament.
——It was not uncommon up to ten years ago to have two classes of 50 sharing the one room. Under the old curriculum which gave little room for flexibility this demanded extremely strict discipline which taxed pupils and teachers alike.
It is no coincidence that with the introduction of the New Curriculum and the removal of many of the pressures on schools there is now a far more relaxed atmosphere in Primary Schools. Discipline is not so rigid. Rules are not so sacrosanct. Children have more scope for their abilities. Interesting and enjoyable subjects are more to the fore. Children like coming to school. Staffs are more relaxed and at ease among themselves. Principals view themselves as leaders of a team. Neither is it a coincidence that with these improvements children are more interested and the use of corporal punishment has diminished greatly.
It is generally agreed that in any organised grouping there have to be rules—written or understood—and that infringements of these rules normally call for sanctions of some sort or other. Schools are no exception to this rule. Schools must be orderly places in which children can learn. Disturbances of the good order of a school or class normally affect the whole school or staff and disorderly or unruly children can and do prevent other children from learning. Most normal, healthy children will be disorderly from time to time and if they are not checked can and do become uncontrollable. No teacher can teach and no pupil can learn in a disorderly situation. Therefore, it would seem logical that to maintain a reasonable order in schools and to check unruly children, certain sanctions may be considered necessary and useful——
Give us a decision or is the Minister incapable of making a decision in the matter?
It takes longer to say "no" than "yes".
——Indeed, children who look for a certain security from teachers demand order and agree that when they are unco-operative sanctions are necessary.
I have not finished my reply, Sir.
If there is agreement the Minister may complete his answer on the next sitting day.
Is there any reason for that?
The Minister is in the middle of a verbose answer.
If the House is agreeable——
We are not agreeable. I asked specifically if the Minister would make a statement on his intentions concerning the abolition of corporal punishment in schools but he has not even touched on that subject yet. This is a disgraceful performance. He is giving information for which he has not been asked.
I was asked for it.
We are looking for a decision.
Order. The Minister may complete the answer.
Is the Chair prepared to allow the House to be treated like this?
If the Deputy listens he may learn something. The reply continues:
All forms of punishment and sanction depend upon the relationship between parent and child or teacher and pupil. Most misdemeanours can be, and are dealt with by a verbal reprimand or a word of advice. Also, it must be borne in mind that discipline is more and more geared to the individual child, his development and personality. Pupil/teacher relationship can be improved with smaller class sizes in which the teacher, besides having a more manageable group of children, has the opportunity of knowing each child at a personal and social level and is able to deal with each at an individual level. Stories of sanctions taken outside the context of pupil/teacher relationships can be, and often are misunderstood——
On a point of order, I asked the Minister a specific question and for the past 15 minutes he has been referring to everything but that.
Order.
(Interruptions.)
Order.
——It is important that a teacher know his pupils well and understand their personalities and their home and family backgrounds. This is impossible where teachers have to deal with 40+ pupils daily. There are schools in depressed urban areas, where children have severe home problems.
The Minister is a disgrace to the House.
Order.
This is a serious subject and I am treating it seriously.
Give us a decision. How much more is there of this?
I am about half way through. It continues:
It is well known that many of these schools have a problem of discipline.
Society is changing and schools change with society and it is admitted that we accept a much less rigid form of discipline than before. We tolerate a lot of behaviour now that we would not have tolerated ten to fifteen years ago. This is so with the mores of society in general which are far more liberal in the past decade or so. However, it must be stated that there is a growing anxiousness about modern mores and behaviour patterns——
This performance on the part of the Minister adds nothing to the standing of the House. Neither does it add anything by way of getting intelligent answers to Dáil questions. The Minister may go on the record as having supplied the longest reply——
The Chair has no control as to whether the Minister's answer is long or short but I must insist on the maintenance of order in the House.
On a point of order, as it is now past the time at which Standing Orders stipulate that Question Time must end and as the Minister is only about half way through his reply which began 15 minutes ago, would you consider that the orders of the House should be brought into consideration at this point?
The Deputy must not have been listening when, at 3.30 I mentioned that matter and as there was no comment I permitted the Minister to continue.
The Leader of the Opposition said I had to continue.
I had been unduly optimistic in regard to hearing a reply to the question.
That is a characteristic I share with the Leader of the Opposition.
The Minister should not treat us as if we were children.
The reply continues:
People are not at all happy that standards of discipline and standards of attainment are not as strict in schools as before.
On a point of order, in order to prevent any further embarrassment to the House on the part of the Minister we are prepared to accept a written reply so far as the remainder of the reply is concerned.
I agree with that in view of the disgraceful performance of the Minister.
Order. The Chair has no jurisdiction over whether a Minister chooses to give a written or an oral reply.
Even the children are leaving the Gallery.
Deputy Browne has a question on this matter also.
We would be happy if the Minister would give us a decision.
The Chair would be happy if the Deputies would cease interrupting.
My question is so simple that I am astonished at the length of time the Minister is taking to answer it. I, too, would be prepared to accept a written reply.
That is a matter for the Minister.
All right, but I insist that Deputy Collins pronounce properly the word "verbose".
May we ask supplementaries arising from the reply?
We cannot permit supplementaries when a written reply is being accepted.
I have a supplementary on this matter.
We cannot have supplementaries at this stage. Question Time has passed.
Are we not entitled to ask supplementaries?
The Chair has permitted the Minister to go beyond the time but the Deputies who submitted the questions have accepted written replies. We may not have supplementaries now.
Is the Minister to complete the answer now or what will be the position?
The Deputies have asked for a written reply.
The remaining questions will appear on tomorrow's Order Paper.