asked the Minister for Defence the total establishment of the Irish Navy in the categories of officers, men and civilian workers, in February 1978; and the number of officers, men and civilians in February 1979.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Defence Forces.
27.
As the reply is in the form of a tabular statement I propose, with the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, to circulate it in the Official Report.
Following is the statement:
Naval Service.
Authorised Establishments—Permanent Defence Force and Civilian Employees
|
Date |
Officers |
NCO's |
Other Ranks |
Civilian Employees |
|
1 February, 1978 |
87 |
331 |
311 |
182 |
|
1 February, 1979 |
100 |
373 |
327 |
184 |
As the figures involved are only in respect of a couple of years would it not be possible for the Minister to read them out now?
They will be on the record but for the Deputy's information they are as follows:
Naval Service.
Authorised Establishments—Permanent Defence Force and Civilian Employees
|
Date |
Officers |
NCO's |
Other Ranks |
Civilian Employees |
|
1 February, 1978 |
87 |
331 |
311 |
182 |
|
1 February, 1979 |
100 |
373 |
327 |
184 |
In common with myself the Minister is concerned about this matter and made a statement in that context in the House about 12 months ago.
Is the Deputy asking a question?
Is the Minister satisfied with these figures having regard to his projection that by the end of the year the Naval Service would comprise 1,000 officers and men?
The total of the figures I have given for 1979 is 984.
That includes civilian employees which number 184, in other words, the service is short 250 of the projection which is a quarter of the Naval Service.
I am not aware of the projections. As I have stated both here and in other places the establishment figures have not been realised and the strength in the Naval Service is well short of the establishment. I have expressed concern in this regard and there is under review the whole question of recruitment to the service. In a very short while I propose undertaking a special recruiting campaign and I am examining the pay and conditions of those serving in the Naval Service with a view to ascertaining what improvements might be effected. I am determined to ensure that the number of people serving in the Naval Service is brought up to the increases in establishment for which I have been responsible since becoming Minister. As I have informed the Deputy already, I hope to be able to increase the figure as time goes on.
28.
asked the Minister for Defence the number of soldiers who left the Defence Forces after their three years' service expired for each of the years 1975 to 1978 inclusive.
The number of soldiers, non-commissioned officers and men, discharged from the Permanent Defence Force on completion of three years service for each year from 1975 to 1978 was as follows: 1975, 308; 1976, 220; 1977, 449; 1978, 904.
Is the Minister not very concerned with the drastic increase in the number of people who have left the armed forces in the past couple of years?
The figures relate to those who have been discharged on completion of three years service. If the Deputy examines the enlistment of men at the beginning of that three-year period he will find that a large number enlisted in 1975-76. These are now completing their three-year term of service and as is normal a large proportion of them are not re-enlisting for further service. At the same time this is not to say that I am not concerned with the situation. I should have hoped that more of these men would have enlisted for further periods of service but I do not know whether one should be too alarmed at the rate of discharge when one realises that these people are discharging themselves on completion of a three-year period of service and that substantial numbers enlisted in 1975-76.
In view of such a large number leaving the forces might it not be worthwhile investigating the reasons for their leaving? We try to create the impression that the Army should be a career.
Would the Minister agree that the main reason for the large numbers leaving the forces is the situation in relation to pay and conditions? Can the Minister, therefore, assure the House now as he assured us before that urgent consideration will be given to this matter?
The matter of pay and conditions is a separate question but it is one that is under investigation.
Is it under active investigation?
Yes. Let me add also that in addition to the numbers discharged on completion of three years service the numbers discharged with less than three years service were 556 in 1978 compared with 900 in 1975.
29.
asked the Minister for Defence the progress, if any, which has been made in the matter of issuing driving licences to people who have been trained for and who have passed the Army driving test.
Army drivers attending an advanced driving course conducted by the military authorities in January 1979 underwent driving tests, carried out by testers of the Department of the Environment, to qualify for driving licences under the Road Traffic Acts. As a result of the tests, 11 Army drivers qualified for licences to drive civilian vehicles.
I intend that all Army drivers who wish to qualify for civilian driving licences will be facilitated in the same manner.
Is the Minister saying that they can sit for the Department's driving licence if they wish? Is he aware that many Army personnel who drive heavy vehicles while in the Army cannot take up employment in civilian life because they do not have a civilian driving licence? I am sure those people had to undergo a stringent test to qualify for an Army licence. Is it possible to in-corporate the test for a civilian licence in the test for a licence to drive an Army vehicle?
Personnel in the Permanent Defence Forces acting as drivers who wish to take out a civilian driving licence will be facilitated and I advise them to contact their commanding officer.
Is it necessary to have two tests? Such personnel must undergo a stringent test to qualify to drive Army vehicles. Such personnel are well qualified to drive heavy vehicles and there should be co-operation between the Department and the Army to automatically grant such people a civilian licence when they pass the Army test.
That position does not obtain nor is it likely to obtain. The Defence Act of 1954 excludes the necessity for persons driving Army vehicles to hold the Department of the Environment driving licence. That is at it should be and it will continue to be so. On the other hand, it is the Department of the Environment who control the regulations regarding the issue of driving licences and when that legislation was brought before the House and decisions were made with regard to the introduction of driving licences here the Department made it clear that there would not be any exemption from the test for any category. The Department have maintained that position since. The Deputy should accept that the steps I have taken were taken with the intention of overcoming that difficulty. I recognise the good reason behind the decision of the Department of the Environment not to grant exemptions to any particular category. At the same time, I have taken steps which will overcome that problem. Any Army driver will be facilitated in taking out a civilian driving licence. All he need do is contact his commanding officer. There will not be any difficulties.
Army personnel drive heavy vehicles throughout the country and I would be obliged if the Minister would make arrangements whereby they will be given the two licences if they pass the Army test. That test could be carried out by the Army.
This is developing into an argument and it cannot be allowed to continue.
It is a matter that could be resolved very simply by the Minister in conjunction with the Department of the Environment.
The Deputy is failing to grasp my point. Arrangements have been made to do as the Deputy is requesting. When Army personnel are doing the Army test they will simultaneously be tested by a tester from the Department of the Environment. The person undertaking the test has only to do it once with the two testers present. This is not the big problem in the Defence Forces that some people make it out to be. We are not flooded with requests to do these driving tests. We had 11 requests in January and I am inviting other members of the Force who wish to undergo the test to come forward. The arrangements I have made have overcome this problem once and for all.
Could the Minister give a blanket cover for all tests by the Army?
If the Deputy is not satisfied with the arrangements I have made I cannot help it, but I am satisfied that the arrangements are satisfactory.
The remaining questions will appear on tomorrow's Order Paper.