Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 28 Mar 1979

Vol. 313 No. 4

Private Members' Business. - Adjournment Debate: Office of Public Works' Building Programme.

Mr. Quinn

I appreciate the time being made available to me tonight. I asked in all eight questions today to the Minister of State, Deputy Wyse, in relation to the role of architects in the Office of Public Works and the volume of work the Government are currently undertaking. I was very dissatisfied with the response I got from Deputy Wyse. Perhaps he has other things on his mind such as Wood Quay.

As an architect I have no hesitation in raising the question of the role of the one architectural office, the Office of Public Works, that the State itself has. The position appears to be that because of the attitude of the Office of Public Works and, by extension, the Department of the Public Service towards remuneration, the status of this architectural resource and its allied professional skills will be progressively reduced and diminished. If that is the case, it behoves the Minister and the Government to state clearly what their policy is towards the architectural and design staff in the Office of Public Works. Has the Government a particular view on the role of the professional design staff in the Office of Public Works and, if so, has that role and their perception of it changed from previous administrations? To put it in a more political way, do the Government propose to hive off to the private sector this aspect of our economy just as noises are being made about hiving off other areas to the private sector? Is the refusal by the Department and the Minister of State to pay a reasonable relative salary an indication that, by stealth, they are going to drive out of the public sector workers who do very good work?

The Minister of State in reply to my questions stated that the capital employed at the moment was £39 million, an increase of £9 million on last year, and that 90 per cent of the work was in the process of either going on site or would very soon go on site. By inference, one could take the view that we are not talking about long-term projects or people sitting at drawing boards and designing something that might never be built. We are talking about work that will be done in the immediate future and that is likely to go to tender. The Minister of State went on to say that even though they were one-third short of their complement of architects and their building programme was such that 90 per cent of it was likely to take off in the immediate future, he did not see any difficulties in meeting the overall timetable they had set themselves. Either the Minister is running his Department so efficiently that he does not need the extra staff or the way in which he presented the information at Question Time was, to say the least, misleading. Perhaps the Minister would take this opportunity to remove any misinterpretation I might have taken from his reply.

I would draw the attention of the Minister to the comparative position in terms of remuneration that his professional staff have with other architects in the public sector. I am not comparing architectural employment in the Office of Public Works with the private sector because the constraints of the market and so on are different in both areas. In a submission that was made by the Institute of Professional Civil Servants on a claim for an increase, reference number C159, a table is given on page 4 which indicates that they have fallen behind architects employed in other public sector agencies such as Aer Rianta, the NBA, the ESB and Dublin Corporation.

As one who was employed as a public service architect and derived a lot of benefit from it, I would like the Minister, whether tonight or at some future date, to say in some detail how he and the Government see the role of the Office of Public Works design staff. A government of any political complexion, either a mad right-wing government, towards which this Government have displayed certain tendencies, or a government of any other political persuasion, must have an architectural staff to do certain basic work.

I seriously suggest to the Minister that if the same levels of remuneration are not retained in the Office of Public Works, with a proper career structure, the morale of those employed will be so undermined that the best of them will leave and the not so good will have no option but to remain. That will not be doing any service to the Office of Public Works, the building industry or the other State Departments which the Office of Public Works purport to be serving.

There is a great need in the Office of Public Works for a corps of top-class well qualified and adequately remunerated professionals who can maintain for the offices of State a suitable range of skills and experience that will enable the Government, whatever their political complexion, to carry out a basic building programme such as that referred to by the Minister at Question Time earlier today.

I am not a trade union negotiator and I will not attempt to involve myself in the details of salary negotiations. Neither is the Minister in such a position. He can say this is a matter between the representative organisations and the Department of the Public Service. Therefore, putting aside details of negotiations, let us turn to the real issue involved. There is a need for some degree of relativity so that the reasonable claims that have been presented can be seen in their proper context, but what is of more relevance to the House is my suggestion that the Department should enunciate clearly the role to be played by the architects and the design staff generally. It must be clearly established that there will be in the Office of Public Works a career structure for talented and able designers who want to work in this part of the public service. The impression must be killed that this part of the public service is not the place for a talented young architect because the level of remuneration is so much below that in any other State agency.

I thank the Chair for having allowed me to raise this matter. The Minister has said that 90 per cent of the work programme is ready to go on site but that there are vacancies equal to one third of the full staff. Is it the Government's policy simply to run down the Office of Public Works design staff to such an extent that the vast bulk of the work will have to be hived off to the private sector?

Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Mr. Wyse)

I am somewhat amazed at the statements made by Deputy Quinn. He seems to be very far removed from what is going on in the Office of Public Works. I can relieve his mind straightaway by telling him that there is no change of attitude towards architects or design staff in that office. There is no intention to have their status reduced. Indeed when I was appointed to that office I set about building up the architectural, engineering and all the other sections in that office which had been allowed to run down because of an embargo imposed by the previous Government. I appreciate that the Deputy was not a member of that Government and that he did not have any part in it. I am not being political when I say that.

I can assure the Deputy that it is my intention to ensure that every section within the Office of Public Works will be geared to meet the many demands on it and to give opportunities to young people in the Board of Works. Within a month I set about appointing between 30 or 40 apprentices, to provide openings for young people, career opportunities in other words. I hope that will relieve the Deputy's mind immediately. I am sorry that I was misinterpreted today, but that is becoming a nasty habit in the House. Today I went out of my way to give the Deputy an idea of what I am doing.

The 28 vacancies arose largely in the last year because of increases in authorised numbers to meet the bigger demand. I deally, the Office of Public Works would wish to handle all its architectural work with its own staff but this, as I have explained, is not always feasible. We must handle the peaks of demand and deal with any temporary shortages of staff by commissioning architects in private practices. In this way, the Office of Public Works can manage to keep its building programme on target.

Over a number of years it has been necessary for the Office of Public Works to commission private architects to assist in the design work associated with the building programme which is a major function being undertaken by that office for other Government Departments. The programme is a very extensive one covering a wide range of buildings, such as schools, telephone exchanges, post offices, garda stations, office buildings and many other types of buildings. The Office of Public Works employs a large number of architectural staff both for the building programme and for the repair and renovation of some 2,000 State buildings. As can be appreciated, however, with such an extensive programme a variation in the numbers of buildings required can regularly occur with little notice. The new programme of buildings for telephone development announced by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs is a good example. That programme comprises building projects estimated to cost £70 million which will have to be undertaken at short notice and within a limited period of years.

It is, of course, the aim of the Office of Public Works to employ adequate staff to cope with the programmes of building and maintenance work, but constant variations make it difficult to adjust the cadre of staff to meet fluctuating requirements. The recruitment of architectural staff in accordance with long accepted legal requirements is effected by means of open competition conducted by the Civil Service Commission, but even with frequent competitions it is difficult to provide a regular inflow of staff to meet the requirements of such a large organisation as the Office of Public Works which has an authorised architectural staff of 280, including 115 posts of qualified architect.

Thus, a degree of flexibility is essential if the Office of Public Works is to meet the peaks in demands for building services from the various Departments whose needs can vary from year to year, and the most satisfactory way of attaining the flexibility is to assign some of the building projects to private architectural firms on a commission basis. This arrangement has worked adequately for many years and has served to maintain progress with the State's building requirements.

In the meantime, the recruitment of staff for the Office of Public Works is an ongoing process which depends on a number of factors such as the output of graduates from colleges at particular times of the year and the normal movement of architects in the early stages of their career. Steady progress has been made with recruitment, and it is expected that it will be maintained and may be improved with a revision of salary scales. The Office of Public Works architects are paid the standard salary scale applicable to architects in the civil service, and that scale is at present under review. The review is not, of course, a matter for the Office of Public Works; it is being processed through the Conciliation and Arbitration Scheme by the Department of the Public Service and I hope that the increases which may be agreed to will help to speed up recruitment and bring serving staff to the number authorised.

The numbers authorised were greatly increased in the last year to meet the additional requirements of the expansion of the building programme and the increase in staff also included a number of senior posts which are filled by promotions, which in turn gives rise to consequential vacancies which must be filled by recruitment.

It is important that it should go out from the House that there is no change whatsoever in any of the structures in the Office of Public Works. I think I have proved beyond doubt that it is my ambition to ensure that every section of the Office of Public Works' staff will be geared up to meet present requirements, and they are many. I want to ensure that employees will have a future in the Office of Public Works. On many occasions we have come in for unfair criticism. I hope we will be able to rid ourselves of this in the coming few months. I can assure the Deputy that the changes we are about to make will be in the interests of all those employed in the Office of Public Works.

The Dáil adjourned at 9 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 29 March 1979.