Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 3 Apr 1979

Vol. 313 No. 6

Supplementary Estimates, 1979. - Vote 3: Department of the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December 1979, for the salaries and expenses of the Department of the Taoiseach.

This is a new matter and it is necessary to move it to provide for Sub-head E, the Pearse Commemoration Project, to enable initial payments to be made in connection with commemorative items which arise on this Vote, such as the making of a film, the commissioning of orchestral work and a one-man show on aspects of the life of Pearse. This being a new service it has not been possible to have payments made in advance of the Estimate being passed.

It may be necessary to make the initial payments in advance of the resumption of the Dáil after the Easter Recess. Commemorative projects will arise on other votes also, for example, the Department of Education and the Office of Public Works. This information has already been conveyed to both Opposition Parties.

Mr. P. Barry

We welcome this but must protest at the way in which it has come before the House which was by means of a telephone call yesterday morning informing the Whips of the two parties that the money was wanted this evening at 3.30 p.m. We have no objection to passing the money but I do not understand why it might be possible to make payments during the Easter Recess that could not have been foreseen before yesterday morning.

We would like more details than the Taoiseach has given about the form the commemorations for Pádraig Pearse will take. Will they run up to 10 November, which was his birthday, or will they take place during May, which was the time of his death? We have no objection to passing the money and encouraging the Government to see that the commemoration is fitting for a man of his stature but we must protest about the way we are being asked to do it, in a hurry on the basis of a telephone call 24 hours before it came before the Dáil.

Mr. B. Desmond

We agree to the token Estimate subject to a clear indication of where the moneys will be spent. We accept, on the basis of the information we had yesterday afternoon, that it will be necessary for some additional payments to be made to some people but we reserve our comments on the overall programme because we wish to see the precise nature of the programme, what other organisations may or may not get moneys and, in a general sense, we wish to reserve our position until we see the precise content of the programme. With that in mind we agree to the token Estimate of £10 and look forward—-since this is the last week of the Dáil before we adjourn for Easter—as soon as we come back on 27 or 28 April to receiving the full Estimate for the remainder of the year.

Mr. Kelly

I wish to make a few points which occurred to me in consequence of the speed with which this matter was brought to the attention of the Opposition Whips. The fact raises a doubt in my mind as to the procedure by which the work to which the Taoiseach referred is proposed to be done. The Taoiseach mentioned in his short statement five minutes ago, if I heard correctly, the commissioning of a film and of orchestral work. I would like to be assured, as I am sure will other Deputies, that this will be a commissioning by a procedure which will not hereafter be open to any objections. Perhaps in the circumstances it is not appropriate to hold a full-scale competition at this stage in regard both to the film and orchestral work or works but many people outside the House and I and, I am sure, other Deputies, are of the opinion that a competition is the appropriate way to get a good result in regard to providing, for the use of the State or otherwise, a work of art whether a film or a piece of orchestral music.

There are bad precedents in the history of the State for other procedures having been adopted. In 1969 or thereabouts when the present Minister for Health was Minister for Finance he, it is not unfair to say, took it upon himself to decide what the design for the State's new coinage should be and almost gloried in the fact that he had been able to patronise a particular artist and commissioned her to design——

Mr. Haughey

On a point of order——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am wondering what coinage has to do with this Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Haughey

What Deputy Kelly is now stating is untrue.

Mr. Kelly

I heard——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The question of the design of the coinage cannot arise on this small Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Kelly

It was scandalous.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That may be so but it does not arise on this.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): The Deputy does not want that precedent followed.

Mr. Haughey

What the Deputy is saying is untrue.

Mr. Kelly

If I am wrong about it, the Minister had ten years in which to make his point. He held a press conference at which he introduced the new designs to the press and not a word was said about anything but that a particular artist had been commissioned to do them. There was no competition and, above all, the Arts Council, which has a specific statutory function in this matter, publicly stated that it had not been consulted in regard to those designs which were to take over——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Kelly is completely out of order in raising a matter that does not arise on this Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Haughey

On a point of order——

Mr. Kelly

The idea of——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There is a point of order from the Minister and the Minister or any other Member is entitled to raise a point of order.

Mr. Haughey

On a point of order, Deputy Kelly is proceeding to make unfounded charges in an irrelevant way. The function of designing coinage and notes is vested in the Central Bank.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That finishes that. It just does not arise.

Mr. Kelly

I am sorry to quarrel with the Chair but it simply cannot be the last word on a matter of public importance if the Minister says something and nobody is allowed to contradict him.

Mr. Haughey

The Deputy is uttering falsehoods.

Mr. Kelly

I will produce to the Minister the press reports which gave accounts of the press conference.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are dealing with a matter that concerns the Taoiseach and his Department. It has nothing at all to do with finance.

Mr. Kelly

We do not want the same thing to happen with the orchestral work or the film—we do not want friendly patronage from some patron of the arts over there.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): Is the Minister to be allowed tell a Deputy that he is a liar?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister will withdraw his charge that the Deputy is telling lies but if the Minister makes a statement that he was not responsible for something it must be accepted.

Mr. Haughey

First of all, I withdraw the statement that the Deputy is telling lies but I want to indicate that what the Deputy is telling the House is not true. I had no knowledge of the artist who designed the coinage——

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): On a point of order, is debate to be conducted in this House by way of interruption?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Kelly raised the matter——

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): The Minister will have an opportunity of replying when Deputy Kelly has concluded.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister will not have an opportunity of replying.

Mr. P. Barry

The Minister will have an opportunity of contributing.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The coinage and the design of the coinage does not arise on this Estimate.

Mr. Kelly

I am not complaining about the telephone calls yesterday morning but this is an Estimate. I would be quite within the rules of this House if I spoke for an hour on it and if the debate continued all night.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Relevantly, yes.

Mr. Kelly

I will not be rushed back to my seat by Deputy Haughey or anybody else. I believe I am relevant because I am making a point which I hope will be taken by the Government: we do not want this national commemoration to be devalued by friendly patronage.

Mr. Haughey

That in an implication.

Mr. Kelly

We want to ensure that if a film is to be commissioned it will be done by a procedure which is above board and which is appropriate to the artistic effort involved, if possible, by a competition. I accept that this may not be practicable because they left it so late, they did not think of it in time. However, advice should be obtained from an independent outside body. There is already such a statutory body with such a function. I would like the Taoiseach to state here and now that the Arts Council will be formally, or have been, asked to perform their statutory function and give advice on how the film could be made, how the person to make it should be selected. I am sure there are many film makers who would be glad of the honour of making it In regard to the orchestral work or works I hope they will advise on which composers are to be given a chance—if possible let them all be given a chance—and who has the job of deciding between them.

I would not have thought that was a contentious comment to make. I did not come here with any intention of offending the Minister for Health and Social Welfare. It was only five minutes ago that I learned that this motion was on the agenda and I make my comments with the reserve that the Minister may be in the right and I may be in the wrong but if that is the case it is curious that when this very topic was debated in the Seanad in 1970—the first debate in which I took part following my election to that House—there was not a word uttered about a competition. The burden of the case made by the Opposition then was that there had not been a competition in contra-distinction to what had happened in 1928 when an artistic committee presided over by W. B. Yeats advised the State with painstaking care on the design of coinage. But those were the days when standards were upheld in this State about those matters and about everything else and we want those standards maintained today also.

Mr. Haughey

On the question of standards, the most important place for standards to be upheld is in this House. I can say firmly and categorically that the design of coinage and currency notes is a matter for the Central Bank and I reject as completely unfounded any suggestion that the coinage on the last occasion was brought into being by way of an act of patronage or, to use Deputy Kelly's words "friendly patronage" on my part. I had no function whatever in the selection of the artists who designed the coins. If we are to have standards it is hardly legitimate for Deputy Kelly to stand up here ex parte and to launch this totally unfounded allegation against me.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The House must accept that.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order. Deputy Kelly has spoken already. Therefore, he may not speak again on this matter.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): The Minister has spoken twice.

Mr. Kelly

He has spoken four or five times.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister rose on a point of order.

Mr. Kelly

I intend looking up the files for whatever year is pertinent and I expect that the press reports will prove me right.

The Taoiseach

This is not the first time that Deputy Kelly, even this very day, has made allegations of favouritism and corruption.

Mr. Kelly

I have not said anything about corruption.

The Taoiseach

He has made allegations of favouritism and patronage. Only an hour ago he alleged that the selection of the enumerators for the purpose of the census was undertaken under a patronage system.

Mr. Kelly

I could not find out in what way their selection could be reconcilable with the job-creation programme.

The Taoiseach

Did the Deputy not say that there were 84 job-creation committees each at the other's throat?

Mr. Kelly

Yes.

The Taoiseach

Did he not imply by that statement that it was a means of dispensing patronage among those 84 people? I know I am not in order but in the circumstances I am entitled to reply to the Deputy.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Taoiseach is as much in order as was Deputy Kelly.

Mr. Mitchell

The Chair is being unfair.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If it is Deputy Mitchell's intention to behave in this way I shall have to ask him to leave the House. That sort of charge against the Chair will not stand up to examination. The Chair has always tried to be fair to everybody.

Mr. Mitchell

I shall leave others to be the judges of that.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair will not tolerate this kind of conduct from Deputy Mitchell. We have had too much of it for some months.

The Taoiseach

When the enumerators were being advertised for, the advertisement was set out in the manner——

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): What relevance have they to this debate?

The Taoiseach

They are as relevant to it as is the question of coinage.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): There was a precedent for that.

The Taoiseach

Neither the Minister of State at my Department nor I nor any member of the Government interfered one way or the other with the appointment of any enumerator in the course of the establishment of the census. I ask Deputy Kelly to accept my word for that, which I give honestly and sincerely.

Mr. Kelly

I accept that and I regret that the Taoiseach has been put to the point of having to reply to a remark thrown in in the course of a question.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The matter should not arise at this stage and neither should the question of the coinage of 1928 arise.

Mr. Kelly

That is absolutely relevant.

The Taoiseach

I am making these comments only because Deputies on the other side make comments that are out of order but for which nevertheless they are given publicity in the press while those of us on this side who try to maintain order are thereby precluded from refuting allegations of this nature.

Regarding the specific charge made by Deputy Kelly, there is no question of patronage in the allocation of the assignments under the different headings. The following are some of the details: a film will be made and a number of Irish film producers have been invited to submit details of their treatment of such a film. The Arts Council to which the Deputy referred were invited to take part with Dr. Gerard Victory, Director of Music of RTE, with Professor Anthony Hughes, UCD, and Miss Dinah Mulloy of the Arts Council in advising on a composer for a major orchestral work for the smaller competitions, for example, compositions for a brass and reed band, for the new Irish Chamber Orchestra and for a suitable work for the Irish Ballet Company. So far as the major orchestral work is concerned I do not know whether it is the practice or whether it is feasible to commission a number of people to submit contributions but in this case the four people whom I regard as being well qualified for the purpose suggested that Mr. Seoirse Bodley be commissioned to write an orchestral work. This is being done. There is a one-man show on aspects of Pearse's life and work. It is intended to stage this in the autumn. In addition, a commemorative stamp of a 10p denomination will be issued on 10 November this year by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. The Office of Public Works have commissioned Mr. John Behan to execute a bronze bust of Pearse at St. Enda's. I do not know how Mr. Behan was selected nor do I know what is his capacity in comparison with that of any other sculptor but obviously he is a man of high repute and worthy to undertake this commission.

On the other side, the Department of Education are arranging for the reissuing of the educational writings of Pearse and for a new publication of his political writings. These publications will be distributed to schools and colleges so I do not think there could be any patronage there. A range of post-primary and post-graduate scholarships is being drawn up by the Department of Education, details of which will be announced later. Also, an award for excellence in Irish at teacher-training college level is being organised and the Department have arranged also for a Pearse commemoration scholarship at post-graduate level to a foreign university.

The Department of Education are making arrangements also for a training course through Irish for journalists. That course will commence in September-October this year. Full details of these proposals will be announced at a later stage. In addition, the same Department are arranging for the commissioning for distribution to school libraries of an environment reference book to mark Pearse's interest in nature and in the landscape of Ireland. So far as St. Enda's is concerned, the Office of Public Works are arranging to have ready for public viewing during the course of this year as many rooms as possible. Some items of furniture which had been removed are being restored for the purpose and other items which cannot be restored will be replaced by reproductions. The work involves in the main the restoration of An Halla Mór, the library and the oratory as well as some works in the basement. Regarding Pearse's Cottage at Rosmuc, improved facilities are being provided and I understand that Galway County Council also are undertaking certain activities in relation to the cottage.

That is the range so far of the activities and I do not think that anybody can take much exception to them. On the contrary I should imagine that there would be public endorsement for them.

As far as the haste of introduction of this Supplementary Estimate is concerned, as I indicated at the outset it is a new subhead, and we have been given legal advice that it is not possible to draw on the Estimate as a whole in advance of getting formal permission from the Dáil to draw on this new subhead. It was only in the last few days that we learned that some modest payments were required and that it would not be possible to make these modest payments in advance of the Dáil approving of this token Estimate.

Mr. P. Barry

I accept what the Taoiseach says but the Taoiseach had a lot of information. If the Taoiseach had given more information to the House originally I would have been able to contribute more fully than was possible in the circumstances. Last week there was an extremely good Breandán Ó hEithir film on television, An Fear ó Bhaile Atha Cliath. Would the Taoiseach please ensure that it is included and shown again as it would contribute to any commemoration there is for Pearse.

Mr. Kelly

All this excitement could have been avoided if the Taoiseach had done——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

At this stage the Deputy can only raise a question.

An Taoiseach

It may cool the Deputy's ardour if I tell him that these details were published by my Department in October of last year.

Vote put and agreed to.