Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Jun 1979

Vol. 315 No. 5

Courts Bill, 1979: Second Stage (Resumed) and Final Stages.

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Yesterday I dealt with the subject in a general way and I undertook to the Deputies opposite that I would deal with the specific points raised on the Bill itself. A number of matters of importance were raised which should be met.

Deputy Keating wondered if judges could be appointed administratively rather than legislatively. Article 36 of the Constitution states:

Subject to the foregoing provisions of this Constitution relating to the Courts, the following shall be regulated in accordance with law, that is to say;—

i. The number of judges of the Supreme Court, and of the High Court, the remuneration, age of retirement and pensions of such judges, ...

If the Constitution was amended in this connection Deputy Keating's suggestion might have some relevance. While his point of view is arguable, it is not sustainable under the Constitution. I respectfully suggest to him that the proper way to appoint judges is under the present system and by the means now applied. Judges should be appointed publicly and there should be discussion on their appointment in the manner in which this subject was discussed yesterday. It was a worthwhile and healthy exercise. I should much prefer that judges be appointed under legislation and in full view of this House so that they are not seen to be appointed by way of subterfuge. Regardless of the constitutional requirement, the subject should be discussed openly.

Deputy Keating suggested that some judges of the High Court were sent home because of lack of staff. We investigated the matter and found there was no substance in that suggestion. I use the word "suggestion" because I do not think the Deputy made the comment by way of charge or allegation. He raised the matter in the ordinary way and the answer is that no judge was sent home because of lack of staff.

The Deputy said there should be additional reforms in this Bill. The question of law reform generally is being pursued vigorously in the Department of Justice. I hope that there will be substantial law reform measures before this House in the new Dáil term or in the session after the Michaelmas term. I do not intend at this stage to mention the areas in which there may be reforms but I want to inform the Deputy that substantial work is being done on this matter in the Department. I have been appointed to assist the Minister for Justice in regard to that and other matters having regard to the burden put on the Minister in the matter of security and other issues.

The Post Office strike was mentioned by Deputy Keating and by Deputy Enright. It is true that the effect of the strike on High Court civil jury actions has been quite considerable. Jury summonses are usually served by post but since the Post Office strike started in February of this year it has not been possible to summon jurors for High Court actions. As a result no High Court jury actions have been heard in Dublin since early March and the jury sittings in Cork which commenced on 23 April lasted only one week instead of the usual two weeks because not enough jurors were available. The reason for the lack of jurors was that we could not serve jury summonses on them because of the postal strike.

The High Court is due to rise for the long vacation at the end of July and will not resume sittings until October. There is no possibility of jury actions being heard in the High Court before October and then only if the Post Office strike ends in time to permit of the service of summonses. The average delay from the date of setting down a jury action to the date of hearing was ten months on 6 April 1979, at the end of the Hillery term. Accordingly, the average delay period will have risen to 16 months by the end of October.

It is understood that the President of the High Court has urged litigants to have their cases heard without juries but he has not had a very favourable response. This brings us back to the point raised by Deputy Fitzpatrick. He believes strongly that civil juries should be maintained. It is clear that when there is an absence of civil juries and there is a non-jury situation on offer, that litigants will not accept a non-jury situation. There is much in what the Deputy said apart altogether from the principle involved in retaining the jury in a civil action. Litigants want juries to adjudicate on their claims. In the Easter term only one case opted for trial without jury. That copper-fastens Deputy Fitzpatrick's argument in regard to the retention of the jury system.

The Deputy also mentioned accommodation. I have an extensive note on this question and will do my best to summarise it. At present there are nine courtrooms available for High Court business and one High Court judge sits in the Special Criminal Court in Green Street. At the moment it is possible to accommodate all ten High Court judges at sittings in Dublin. Judge Costello's temporary absence has already made a courtroom available for one judge. Because High Court judges have other duties to discharge elsewhere than in courtrooms in Dublin, there are many occasions during the year when courtrooms are available which could be utilised by the proposed additional judges. Those occasions arise when the High Court goes on circuit to hear appeals and some original actions at provincial venues; when, for example, it goes to Cork in January, April and July to hear original jury actions; when judges are working in chambers in preparation of judgments, vetting transcripts of cases, writing notes on cases appealed to the High Court, studying relevant papers for sittings of the Court of Criminal Appeal, and when in the court of Criminal Appeal, which is comprised of the Chief Justice and two High Court Judges.

That raises another matter which was mentioned by Deputy Fitzpatrick, that is, people imagining that a judge's function is to sit only for four hours a day, apart from the concentration required during that four hour sitting. A judge has a great deal more work to do than just sitting in court.

The President of the High Court expressed concern at his inability to arrange for the appropriate type of hearing of State side matters, such as habeas corpus, a certiori mandamus and prohibition. There is provision for the hearing of these court cases by a divisional court of the High Court consisting of three judges. This arrangement, which is highly desirable from the point of view of certainty and authority in matters of public importance, was commonly availed of up to about ten years ago and many of the leading reported decisions on these aspects of the law are those of such divisional courts.

Because of pressure of business in the High Court, the frequency with which the courts could be established has declined and since 1974 the President held only two, although it is understood that there were many other cases in which he felt it would have been appropriate. The restoration to the High Court of the capacity to have important issues of a kind already outlined tried by a divisional court rather than by a single judge would release two courtrooms on occasions. The courtroom accommodation which could be made available in the manner outlined is expected to be sufficient to meet the needs of the three proposed additional judges. A further jury courtroom is now being planned in the area of the Four Courts building. A court office is being renovated and a court is being created.

(Cavan-Monaghan): It is clear from what the Minister of State has said that he is able to fit in the judges by way of a shoe-horn operation.

Mr. Andrews

It is a very effective shoe-horn which works and will be seen to work.

(Cavan-Monaghan): What about the general public and the jurors?

I will deal with this matter in the course of my reply. I understand the President of the High Court expressed satisfaction with these arrangements. That is the reality.

The Deputy mentioned the comfort and general reception of litigants in the Four Courts area. It must be admitted that the space available for jurors and litigants is inadequate. This matter will have to be looked at urgently because the people from the country, for example, are going round in circles, they do not know what they should be doing or where they should be going. That is not a reflection on the practitioners; rather it is a reflection on the accommodation available.

I have already dealt with the jury system. Deputy O'Connell raised the question of the appointment of judges, and I referred briefly to it last night. When the Coalition were in power nine appointments were made. Those people were of the highest integrity and have not been found wanting in their service as judges. Equally, people appointed by successive Governments, whether Fianna Fáil or Coalition, have never been found wanting. Therefore, the system is not a bad one. Deputy O'Connell suggested that we should have a panel similar to the Planning Appeals Board, an excellent board which is independent of any outside interests but with respect to the Deputy's analogy, the two do not bear comparison. On the one hand, we are dealing with planning appeals and, on the other, we are dealing with people. While I agree that people are indirectly involved in planning appeals, nevertheless the system has worked well and has been seen to have worked well.

From my own experience I can only say that the system should not be abandoned at this stage. Deputy O'Connell raised the matter as a matter of opinion and in any democracy a matter of opinion must be discussed and analysed and so on. His opinion is not an unreasonable one. Indeed it is an opinion that has gained considerable currency over the past ten years and people have suggested that perhaps the best way to appoint High Court judges would be by an independent tribunal or by an independent board. It is a point of view and it is not an unreasonable point of view. My opinion is that, having regard to the experience of the people who have been appointed to the High Court, the present system is not a bad one and it has never been found wanting. The reality is that there has never come before these Houses of the Oireachtas the question of a judge's conduct, good, bad or indifferent. That is not a bad record in the short history of this nation. So the present system can bear scrutiny and examination and it is a matter of opinion whether it should be changed or not. That deals with the point raised by Deputy O'Connell and touched on by Deputy Fitzpatrick.

In the matter of the moving of judges, I know what Deputy Fitzpatrick is speaking about. I agree that, when a judge of the High Court sits in the High Court, he should not be left with the same type of duties to deal with year in and year out. This again is a matter for the President of the High Court. A High Court judge should not feel that a particular court is his court from the time he goes into it to the time he retires. The reality of the situation is that it is covered by the Courts (Supplemental Provisions) Act, 1961. This entitles the President of the High Court to deal in whatever way he feels proper with the running of the High Court, so it is really a matter for the President of the High Court and it would be wrong for us to interfere in any way with that particular method.

(Cavan-Monaghan): When I made the point I was not for one second suggesting that the Executive should start moving judges about, but I know that the President of the High Court is invested with the power to arrange the business of the High Court and to appoint judges to sit in one court and to change them about and, with due respect to everybody, I was making the point that the learned President should exercise that power more frequently.

I am sure the President of the High Court will read the Dáil debates on the matter and take note of what the Deputy has said.

The question of family law cases in rural areas, which was raised by Deputy Enright, is one of the more important points raised. The point made was that family law cases are sometimes held in public. This is a rather shocking situation because the whole spirit of family law is to give the litigants privacy, particularly in the context of the type of case involved, and to have their cases heard out of the general hearing of the public. But again we come back to the matter of physical accommodation. The truth is that some of the rural district courthouses here are simply not fit. It is unfortunate indeed that the situation which Deputy Enright outlined arises, but it is a reality at the moment. In some instances, though not in all instances, district justices in operating the Family Law (Maintenance of Spouses and Children) Act, 1976, have operated it with great compassion and with great consideration but even their limits can be stretched by the lack of accommodation. What has happened is unfortunate and all we can do is appeal to the district justices, having regard to the lack of accommodation and the physical space available, to do their best in the circumstances until we, who in the final analysis have the ultimate responsibility, can do something about the situation and indeed to apologise to litigants who have suffered this type of humiliation. In all the circumstances we will certainly do our best to ensure that that sort of situation will come to an end as soon as possible.

The law on the matter is quite clear. The Family Law (Maintenance of Spouses and Children) Act, 1976, section 25, Conduct of Court Proceedings, states:

(1) Proceedings under this Act shall be conducted in a summary manner and shall be heard otherwise than in public.

(2) Proceedings in the High Court and the Circuit Court under this Act shall be heard in chambers.

If there is no physical accommodation available in some of the courts, as outlined by Deputy Enright, I do not see how they can be conducted otherwise than in public. It is unfortunate that this has happened but I would like to make it clear that the point is a valid one and it certainly will be listened to.

Deputy Enright mentioned the postal strike and I dealt with that at the beginning of my reply to the various points raised by Deputies opposite.

Deputy Enright also mentioned the arrangement of lists of cases and proposed a preliminary calling over the lists. It is a point and it certainly will be examined.

Deputy Enright also mentioned the matter of the High Court becoming more available on circuit. He may be discussing original actions rather than appeals from original actions and, if that is the case, then he has a reasonable point. However in regard to the High Court circuits, the Northern Circuit sits in Counties Cavan, Donegal, Louth, Meath, Monaghan and Westmeath. The Southern Circuit sits in Counties Cork, Limerick and Kerry. The Eastern Circuit sits in Counties Carlow, Kildare, Kilkenny, Laois, Offaly, Tipperary, Waterford, Wexford and Wicklow and the Western Circuit sits in Counties Galway, Leitrim, Longford, Mayo, Roscommon and Sligo. The appeal towns for the Northern Circuit are Cavan, Letterkenny, Dundalk, Trim, Monaghan and Mullingar. The appeal towns for the Southern Circuit are Ennis, Cork, Limerick and Tralee. The appeal towns for the Eastern Circuit are Carlow, Naas, Kilkenny, Portlaoise, Tullamore, Clonmel, Nenagh, Waterford, Wexford and Wicklow and the appeal towns for the Western Circuit are Galway, Carrick-on-Shannon, Longford, Castlebar, Roscommon and Sligo. The High Court, as we know, sits in Dublin all the legal year round. It sits in Cork three times a year, February, March and July, to hear original actions. Twice a year also, in March and October, the High Court travels throughout the country on circuit to hear appeals from the Circuit Court and while on circuit it also hears original actions in Limerick, Galway and occasionally in other centres when the demand arises and as required. I have already outlined the appeal towns in which the High Court on circuit sits. We know the composition of the present High Court.

It is hoped, and it is certainly the wish of the President of the High Court, that when these three new appointments are made the sittings in the towns where the original hearings are heard, Limerick and Galway, will have an additional judge assigned to deal with the backlog of cases where this arises. It is hoped indeed that, arising out of this Bill, that situation will be cured for a period of time anyway. That may answer Deputy Enright's question about the High Court on circuit. This Bill goes a long way to do something about it.

On the question of shorthand note-takers, I understand from my own short experience at the bar that shorthand note-takers sit in on criminal cases at the moment but that there are actually recording sessions as well in criminal cases. In other words, a technological advance has been made. In criminal cases there is experience of actual sound recordings made of the action. I agree with Deputy Enright in this regard. I do not want to put shorthand note-takers out of business, quite the contrary. However, I understand that from the point of view of speed and efficiency, while not in any way under-valuing the work being done by the court reporters, we should have recordings of High Court proceedings where necessary. This would not put the shorthand writers out of work because they would be engaged in the setting up of the machinery and in taking some shorthand notes and so on. I expect that such an advance will be made in the High Court in the not too distant future.

(Cavan-Monaghan): What is the position regarding shorthand note-takers in civil actions when jury trials are proceeding?

Freelance reporters are engaged sometimes by litigants. Deputy Enright referred to the appointments of more district justices. The 1977 Act provided for an increase to 39.

(Cavan-Monaghan): The effect of that Act was to make permanent the justices who were then temporary.

This also is a matter that will be kept under close review. Deputy Flanagan, while paying tribute to the justices, referred to the delay in bringing cases forward and made the point that cases should be dealt with as speedily as possible. He welcomed the Bill in terms of its leading to the more expeditious treatment of cases but he may have implied that it was not going far enough. In this context he and Deputy Desmond raised the possibility of the creation of more High Court judges. Unhappily, having regard to the increase in crime in our society, and having regard also to the increase in High Court jury actions in Civil matters, there may be need in time for more High Court judges.

We join with Deputy Flanagan in paying tribute to all those people who have been appointed down through the years. The Deputy suggested also that some of the ladies in the legal profession might be considered for appointment to the High Court. I am confident that there are women in the profession who possess all the qualities and qualifications necessary for the High Court. From my short experience of the Law Library I know that there are women there who have the highest legal qualifications. In Britain there are lady judges in the High Court and there is no reason why, in time, we should not have women judges in the High Court here also. That is part of modern development. Women are treated, as is proper, as equal to men in terms of job opportunities.

Deputy Bruton referred to delays in respect of reserved judgments. As I pointed out last night judgments are reserved usually because of the complexity of the cases involved. When a lengthy and complex case has concluded the judge cannot be expected to write a judgment immediately. He may have to hear a case the following day. It may take some considerable time before a judge is free to prepare a judgment. Effectively, he has to retry the case on his own and go through all the issues again before reaching a conclusion. The operation is quite tortuous from the point of view of the judge. While justice is sweetest when it is freshest, there are circumstances in which delays are unavoidable. I am sure the President of the High Court remains in touch with judges who hold reserved judgments for an unreasonable length of time. Such cases would be the exception but there may have been some from time to time, as Deputy Bruton has suggested. However, I am confident that the situation will be kept under constant consideration.

Deputy Bruton raised the question also of judgment debts. This is a matter that can be considered in the context of other legislation, but there would appear to be an injustice in the payment of interest at only 4 per cent in respect of these debts. That figure is scandalously low and must be updated having regard to the disgraceful bank and other charges of which all of us are well aware.

(Cavan-Monaghan): This matter is raised every few years but nothing is ever done about it. If it is not appropriate to the Minister's Department, perhaps he would bring it before the Government.

I agree that the situation is unjust and I am confident that something will be done to rectify it. If there is any other matter which Deputy Fitzpatrick thinks I did not deal with I shall be glad to deal with it on Committee Stage. I appreciate the manner in which the Bill has been received by the House. Perhaps it is possible to have the remaining Stages today.

(Cavan-Monaghan): The Minister has dealt fairly, fully and frankly with all the points raised and he may have all the Stages today.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment and passed.
Top
Share