Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 Mar 1980

Vol. 318 No. 10

Private Members' Business. - Abolition of Home Improvement Schemes: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved on Tuesday, 11 March by Deputy Quinn:

That Dáil éireann deplores the decision of the Government to abolish the home improvement grants scheme and the household grant scheme having regard to the need to extend the life and capacity of our national housing stock and to conserve energy and further deplores the prolonged delay in the processing of current grant applications.

Debate resumed on the following amendment:

To delete all words after "Dáil éireann and substitute the following:

"welcomes the steps taken by the Government to redeploy the public funds available for housing in the current year, to ensure that priority is given to the most deserving categories of housing need".

—(Minister of State at the Department of the Environment).

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): In the time alloted to me I should like to deal with the Minister's amendment. It was amusing to hear the Minister of State talking about the country living beyond its means, about housing grants being given without regard to the means of the beneficiaries and about such grants being spent on sun parlours, playrooms and the conversion of garages. It was amusing to hear what he said having regard to the history of Fianna Fáil in relation to these grants.

Under the National Coalition Government of which I was a member reconstruction and new house grants were available subject to a means test which could be revised at any time according as the country could afford it. The record shows that in 1977 some 12,209 house improvement grants and 12,561 water and sewerage grants were paid to applicants who really needed assistance. The general election came and, in order to curry favour with the electorate, Fianna Fáil opened the floodgates and abolished the means test. They said grants would be available for new houses, for reconstruction and for water and sewerage services without regard to the means of the applicant. This was in line with their decision to derate without regard to the means of the rated occupiers and with their decision to remove car tax without regard to the means of the beneficiaries. As a result, in 1979 some 30,298 house improvement grants were paid at a higher rate regardless of the means of the applicants. The grants were paid to all and sundry, including the highest income groups in the country.

As the Minister of State has put on record, the grants were given in order to provide in many cases sun parlours and playrooms. They were given to provide for the conversion of garages and for the addition of other luxuries to houses already adequate for those living in them. It is interesting to note that between 1977 and 1979 there was no significant increase in the number of water and sewerage grants paid because the people who rushed in to swell the house improvement grant applications from 11,000 to 30,000 already had bathroom and toilet facilities in their houses.

Now two-and-a-half years after this Santa-like bonanza of grants for all, house improvement grants and grants in respect of water and sewerage facilities have been withdrawn completely. Now the most humble citizen will not get even £1 to help towards the cost of reconstruction, modernisation or the addition of bathroom and toilet facilities. However, grants for new houses continue to be paid to people with incomes of £15,000, £20,000 or £30,000. That is what the Minister of State calls redeployment of public funds. That is what he asks this House to welcome and approve.

It was disgraceful to withdraw grants when the number of local authority houses has dropped and when the average cost of providing a new house has risen from £12,234 to £24,065. It was a disgrace to withdraw grants that enabled the life of modest houses to be prolonged or to be converted to more comfortable dwellings. The price of a new house has put it beyond the reach of the average person. The stage has been reached when very many partially built houses can be seen throughout the country because the people cannot get the money to finance them. This is not a redeployment of finances. It is withdrawing grants that were available for many years to pay for money borrowed by this Government to implement the extravagant promises that got them into power.

The amendment put down by the Government, which I invite the House to reject, is in line with the budget that has shifted the burden of taxation from the better off to the less well off. That is exactly what has been done with regard to house improvement grants. These grants were available under the National Coalition Government on a regulated basis so that those in need of them would get them. In 1977 Fianna Fáil had to do something dramatic to get back into office and it was easy to offer grants to all and sundry. It was easy of offer to remove car tax and to derate houses irrespective of the income of the people concerned. Now we hear the Minister talk about the country living beyond its means, about giving benefits to people regardless of a means test.

The memory of this Government is very short. It was interesting to hear Deputy O'Donoghue saying here the other day that there is no change in policy, that it is the same policy that was introduced in 1977 and was being implemented all along. We have the Taoiseach trying to pretend that there was a change of policy. In order to demonstrate that, he abolishes Deputy O'Donoghue's Department and throws him out along with it. Then you have Deputy O'Donoghue coming in here and giving the Taoiseach what I think is a kiss of death by saying: "It is the same old party, the same old Government and the same old policy."

Whether new or old, this is a retrograde step. It attacks the less well off. It attacks small farmers who are not entitled to the benefit of the local authorities' housing lists, who cannot provide new houses for themselves, but who want to add water and sewerage facilities or additional bedrooms to make their homes more comfortable. They are not to get a penny. The grants that were enjoyed for several years are being withdrawn. This is a tax on people who buy their houses from the local authorities and in that way save local authorities the cost of repairs. If they then want to add some comfort to the houses they have got they will not get one penny.

The Minister tells us he has increased the loans. He has, but if people want to avail of a small loan to do these repairs it will cost them at least £10 a week over 30 years and that would only cover modest repairs. The Minister expects to be clapped on the back for that just as he expects to be complimented for his £12,000 loan which will cost £35 a week, which may surprise Deputy Flynn.

I condemn the withdrawal of these grants as a retrograde step when new houses are beyond the reach of citizens and at a time when the Government should be encouraging people to improve existing houses and prolong the life of them. This is not a deployment of resources but a withdrawal of resources from the needy and a continuation of the policy of providing resources and grants to people in the upper income group who could do without them.

Mr. Flynn

I am pleased to have the opportunity of dealing with the motion in the name of Deputy Quinn and supported by his Fine Gael partners. There is no need to go further than what the Minister of State, Deputy Connolly, said last evening; but, in the interests of accuracy and to refute some of the misleading statements made by the Opposition on that occasion, I am tempted to speak. We certainly have the prophets of doom and gloom about since the budget. What I have heard in favour of this motion can be loosely termed a load of political slapstick designed to lead astray even the most innocent. I can only refer to it as a hodge-podge of pious hopes on the part of the Opposition parties who are trading on fear that they would like to engender in the minds of all and sundry, trading on ambiguity, half truths. misrepresentation, misquotation and mental reservations—the whole ambit of mental figure juggling in the hope that they would mislead innocent people. People are not as gullible as Opposition spokesmen seem to think. That is why I am trying to put the record straight on some of the misleading statements made last evening on behalf of the joint Opposition parties.

I was somewhat taken aback by Deputy Quinn. From him I expected a more effective and properly researched contribution on the motion. I was surprised because he has considerable talent and has displayed it on many motions which I have had the privilege of hearing debated. In this case, no. For some mysterious reason he dealt in wild statements, sweeping generalities, and that is why it is necessary that somebody should refute such statements in case the general public might be misled.

I should like to draw attention to a point studiously ignored by both Deputy Quinn and Deputy Fitzpatrick. The decision to dismantle the house improvement grants scheme was not taken as a panic measure by the Government and it was not dictated by the Minister for Finance. It was a comprehensive policy statement on behalf of the Government deploying available finances in this year for the benefit of people most in need. The resources are being made available to the deserving sector. Only for that reason has this change taken place. This was explained clearly and concisely by the new Minister of State in the Department of the Environment, Deputy Connolly. I take the opportunity to congratulate him on his elevation to that office. Since coming to it he has shown that he has the talent and capacity to deal effectively with all matters relating to housing. The Minister gave the explanations, but in case anybody should be misled by the Opposition it is only right that some matters should be repeated for the enlightenment and information of the public generally.

Deputy Quinn and Deputy Fitzpatrick and their colleagues since I have been in this House have been crying out for an increase in the money available for local authority housing. They have also been seeking an increase in the eligibility limit for housing loans—increases on all sides. What did we get in the last few months from Fianna Fáil and particularly in the immediate past?

Mr. Quinn

A new Taoiseach.

Mr. Flynn

We got all those increases, and I am glad that Deputy Quinn reminds that we also have a new Taoiseach. These improvements have all been granted in the recent past and I would have thought that Deputy Quinn would have the courtesy to admit that the increases and improvements he and his friends were demanding for the past year or 18 months had been forthcoming and say that at least that much had been achieved.

Practically £8 million extra is being made available this year for local authority housing and some £12 million extra to fund increased loans for the purpose of repair loans advanced by local authorities. Income elegibility has been increased enormously. A few short years ago it was not quite like that. Since we came back to office in 1977 we have raised the loan limit from £4,500 to £12,000. I did not hear anybody say that was enormous, but I will state it on behalf of the people who have to look for loans for the provision of houses. The income limit has risen from £2,000 to £5,500 in a few short years.

Was that the way it was before that? Not on your life. We had a situation where the Coalition Government brought in an income limit of £1,950, a means test to deprive people of the opportunity of getting money to build their own houses. That is surely a fine socialistic idea. Pseudo-socialists, I would call the whole lot of them. They are better fitted for bars in the Royal Yachting Clubs than for sitting on socialist benches as far as I am concerned, but be that as it may. It might well be worth mentioning that when the Coalition Government were in power and had these limits in force, there was many a poor devil down the country who could not get this loan despite the fact that he was the holder of a medical card. His income was too high for him to qualify for these fine loans and grants made available by the Coalition Government during their term of office.

The Government feel that these measures are necessary at this time to bring some balance into the situation of people providing their own homes. The Deputies opposite will give the impression that house improvement grants were being abondoned completely. That is the impression that they would like to go abroad, that somehow, in one fell swoop Fianna Fáil have disregarded all applications for housing grants and withdrawn all improvement grants. The Minister of State last night pointed out quite clearly that that is not so. An important section of the grant will encourage the provision of group water and sewerage schemes, the carrying out of essential housing repairs for elderly people, people in rural cottages, people suffering from certain mental and physical handicaps. All those people are being accommodated at this time, which shows that what Deputy Quinn had to say in his opening remarks is totally untrue. He suggested that it was the first time in Irish politics that grants had been withdrawn completely from the Irish scene. He talked about tradition. He had better pay attention to the tradition of his party—of which he was not, I agree, a front bench member—which overnight withdrew the facility for people making applications for grants during their term of office.

Deputy Quinn is a very effective speaker who would have brought tears even to my eyes when he started talking last evening about bad and overcrowded conditions that the people would have to suffer because of the termination of this home improvement grant. He said that we will end up in a situation where there will be no housing stock suitable for living in at all because of this move by the Fianna Fáil Government. I really believe that he was not sincere when he suggested that. The fact of the matter is that the maximum improvement grant available up to last February was £600. I ask Deputy Quinn how far that £600 would go in dealing with a total estimate for restoring a house. Would it restore a house completely, put on a few new rooms, a bathroom and all the other connections needed to bring this housing stock up to what he would like? Does he realise that the average estimated cost of doing these improvement jobs is between £1,500 and £2,000? Is he suggesting that £600 would go a long way, or is he saying that the poor people he was crying about last night would have the rest of the money over and above the £600 to make up the balance, on average, of £1,400? I say no.

We went a great deal further in that regard than the £200 unsecured loan which applied when Deputy Tully was Minister in the Department of the Environment, but that is water under the bridge now. We, instead, have brought about a situation where individuals can have a £4,000 loan to do a decent job, if such is required, and that they would pay for it with their own savings and with the help of this SDA loan. If they so choose, they can have an unsecured loan of £1,000. Is not this a much better way of doing business? Surely grants are only provided in situations where people have no other funds available to them?

Take some of the figures, as far as that is concerned—and I am going to do that, because Deputy Fitzpatrick last night had a book in his hand of which I took due note and went and made one available to myself. It is a most interesting document, and the Deputy should not have brought it into the House because if anything is going to put a nail in the coffin of the Opposition's motion this evening, it is this particular document. The reference is the quarterly bulletin of the housing statistics, for the quarter 31 December. In this, it gives a total breakdown of all applications through the Department over the years. It is interesting to note that the total improvement grants approved and paid for since 1972 worked out at 225,666 grants. There were water and sewerage grants in the sum of £180,559 and new houses in that period were 249,142—most of them because of good Fianna Fáil housing policy—leaving a grand total of 655,367. I should like Deputy Quinn to remember that figure, which is going to be very relevant to something I have to say later on.

Last night, Deputies Quinn and Fitzpatrick, in unison, implied that there was a serious lack of sanitary facilities in this country. I was disappointed to hear those two people speaking in that way on that particular subject. They would like to lead people astray. Are they aware of the position at all? Deputy Fitzpatrick was talking with his tongue in his cheek when he mentioned hundreds—and I quote—hundreds of local authority houses, in towns, which lack water and sewerage facilities. That may apply in County Cavan, and maybe the local authority houses up there do not have these facilities. I can assure the House that, to my certain knowledge, it does not apply in the county which I represent. Perhaps it is poor representation by the Cavan Deputy which has brought this about—I do not know.

The total national housing stock could be summed up at around 880,000 units of houses. It is estimated that about 90 per cent of all those units of housing have piped water supply and that about 86 per cent have flush toilet facilities. That is a far cry from what Deputy Fitzpatrick was trying to lead us astray with last night. I bring this to the attention of the House, because the other figure I have mentioned is 655,367 new houses, reconstructed houses, since 1977. There is a sharp difference between those two figures. When you add on all the applications in Minister Connolly's office for improvement grants this year and all the group water schemes applied for and approved by Minister Connolly, and add them on to that figure of 655,367, you are not too far short of the 880,000 houses in the country's total. If we were to take some of the mansions that would not be included in that at all and some of the castles in the sky that Deputy Quinn and his friends are living in, all their lives, virtually the whole housing stock has been looked after by improvement grants, housing loans and other loans made available by the Fianna Fáil Government over the years. Bear that in mind.

Mr. Quinn

They will make the Deputy Minister for Finance after that. That outdoes Deputy O'Donoghue for arithmetic.

Mr. Flynn

The figure of 10,944 was an all-time record. When Deputy Fitzpatrick is talking about putting flush toilets and water into houses he might bear in mind that the record of Fianna Fáil is the one to be envied in that regard. The only reason the figure has been reached is because of the policy of providing those facilities to people. That goes back to a Fianna Fáil Government in 1959. That is why that has come about in the intervening years. The people are grateful to Fianna Fáil for that policy.

During the past 20 years 327,733 new houses were built representing 37 per cent of the total housing stock at present. During that period, 414,209 houses were grant approved so far as improvement grant were concerned. There are a further 75,000 improvement grant applications for new houses on hand. In other words, 817,000 houses or 93 per cent of the total housing stock is modern, is being or will be improved. That is some record, and it is fair to say that it is time to call it a day as far as giving improvement grants is concerned.

I wish to refer to a remark made by Deputy Quinn, and I hope he will understand that there is nothing personal in what I have to say. I do not like referring in these terms to him or to any contribution he makes, but I will have to be excused on this occasion. He made the prediction that small builders would be bankrupt by the score by the removal of these improvement grants. Nothing could be further from the truth. Deputy Quinn knows full well that when the Coalition were in power public capital expenditure affecting the building industry dropped by 5 per cent in 1973 and 1974, a further 8 per cent in 1975 and a further 6.5 per cent in 1976. Very interesting. As a result of that the building industry was in a shambles until such time as we came back to power. It has only since recovered the ground lost in those years. Output dropped by 1 per cent in 1974 and 7 per cent in 1975 and that resulted in nearly 12,000 good union cardholders losing their jobs while the Coalition were in power.

Since we resumed office in 1977 one of our primary concerns was to put the building industry back on an even keel. Output in the industry increased by about 28 per cent and direct and indirect employment increased by almost 13,000 persons in those two years. People in the building industry and their associates have always felt the only way they could be sure of a job was to make sure Fianna Fáil were in power.

Deputy Quinn mentioned the fact that about 80 per cent of builders are small builders. It was the only vital statistic of his whole performance that was accurate. I congratulate him on it. He pulled that figure out of the bag and got it right. I agree that about 80 per cent of them are small builders. He might have gone a little further if he was being genuinely fair in pulling out the figure by saying that while 80 per cent of the builders registered with AnCO employ up to ten people the employment given by them accounts for only 22 per cent of the workforce. I am sure the Deputy is only too well aware that most of the jobs done to qualify for the house improvement grants, because of those figures, can only have been done as nixers. Would I be right? If most of those improvement jobs were carried out by that kind of individual I find it hard to see how the Deputy could be supporting that kind of action seeing that it would be against the best wishes and rules of the unions involved, against the best wishes of employers, employees and taxpayers. It was just another figure dropped nicely which could be misinterpreted and lead astray even the most elite, and that is why it must be repudiated.

The Government have on more than one occasion displayed their concern for the welfare of people employed in the building industry. Despite the present economic difficulties—there is no denying they are there—the public investment in building has been increased substantially. The public capital programme estimated at present at £1,154 million was a 15 per cent increase on the 1979 figure. The capital which goes directly or indirectly into the building industry was not just increased by 15 per cent, it was increased by 18 per cent, and that figure is not out of a hat. It represents £722 million under the capital programme that will benefit the building industry.

Mr. Quinn

Does the Deputy have the figure for inflationary costs?

Mr. Flynn

That is what will contribute to the stability of the building industry. I am pleased to see that the figures are beginning to bite home on Deputy Quinn.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Flynn without any help. He does not need it.

Mr. Quinn

That is a matter of opinion.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Quinn is entitled to his opinion but not to express it when the Deputy is speaking.

Mr. Flynn

Somebody asked how things would be affected in County Mayo. In 1973 in County Mayo 446 houses were completed, and that in a county that had a housing crisis until it was relieved by Fianna Fáil. Last year we had the fine figure of 1,093. In 1975 the number of local authority dwellings completed was 124. I do not have to say who was in power at that time. Last year it was 310. I have given a figure for disabled persons' grants which has been supported by a caring Fianna Fáil Government over the years. In 1973 and 1974 as far as the whole country was concerned the value of them was £64,059. What was it last year? Three-quarters of a million pounds, and Mayo benefited to the extent of £100,000 from those as far as that was concerned.

Reference was made last evening—to which I took great exception—about the question of exclusion of the public from O'Connell Bridge House. Deputy Fitzpatrick was criticising the temporary closure of the building as far as telephones and everything else were concerned. From the viewpoint of selfish political capital-making, no doubt he would welcome the chaos and delays, the continuing public frustration and intolerable pressures on the staff. Of course that is what he would like; I know that. He would like those intolerable pressures because I suppose there would be something political to be made of it. He would like pressures on the staff; he would like frustration on the staff; he would like them all to have nervous breakdowns, I take it, in O'Connell Bridge House. But I regard what Minister Connolly did as good administrative procedure in the circumstances in which he found himself.

Mr. W. O'Brien

Close-up.

Mr. Quinn

Shades of the Titanic; that is what the Deputy is at at present.

Mr. Flynn

Let us be honest about it, it was the first time in the history of that building that such an immense amount of documentation came in the door in such a short period of time.

Mr. Quinn

Did he mean to close himself out as well when he closed it to the public?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Flynn has a very short time left.

Mr. Flynn

The Deputy knows that that is inaccurate also and did not happen. In fairness to the Minister that should go on the public record. The consequence of the closure is simply that no grant applicant is being in any way victimised. Letters of inquiry will be dealt with. The staff will concentrate on having them replied to in the shortest possible time. How could they attempt to do so if there was continuous interference by telephones and by every type of individual caller at present? As far as that situation was concerned no alternative solution was put forward by Deputy Fitzpatrick. That is typical of the Opposition. They can go around Minister-bashing, Government-bashing, Department-bashing, but not a single alternative emanated from Deputy Fitzpatrick in regard to the situation in which Minister Connolly found himself a couple of weeks ago in the Department of the Environment.

I want to put on record also that the staff in O'Connell Bridge House did long continuous periods of overtime, some of it not paid for, for which they got no credit except being bashed about because people could not have their telephone calls answered. I want to go on record, on behalf of Minister Connolly and myself, that those people should be congratulated. They deserve great credit. They also deserve being afforded that little amount of time in which to cope with the enormous problem that descended on them a few weeks ago.

Mr. Quinn

They also deserve a change of Government; that would get them out of their agony fairly quickly.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Flynn should not suggest at this stage——

Mr. Flynn

Nobody in Dáil éireann is likely to demand higher taxation or increased Government borrowing simply to restore the house improvement grant. Given the real limitations on public funds for housing this year would the Deputies who have subscribed their great names to this motion genuinely press for the diversion of millions of pounds of taxpayers' money from those people who have the initiative and who are prepared to add their own hard-earned savings to SDA loans in order to house themselves? Is that what they are suggesting at present? Would those same Deputies honestly prefer to see the money going on free grants to persons already housed without regard to their economic circumstances?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Flynn should now conclude.

Mr. Flynn

Would those Deputies favour a cutback in the maximum loan which persons of moderate means can borrow from local authorities? Would they like us to reduce the maximum loan of £4,000 to what it was a few months ago? Would they like it to go back to the level at which it stood when they were in power? Would they like a reversion to the means test? Would they like a reversion to the cutback overnight? I suggest they would not.

I am putting on record that what was done was in the best interests of the common good at this time. Minister Connolly is to be congratulated on the efficient way in which he dealt with this matter last evening and I ask the House to throw out this motion.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Tully.

Deputy Tully rose.

Mr. Begley

I believe Deputy Flynn is not getting a car all the same.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Begley should leave the cars outside the House.

Mr. Flynn

I have a fine car, fully paid for, now, Sir.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Tully is in possession. Deputies should leave the cars out in the yard or wherever they are and forget about them. Deputy Tully.

Mr. Tully

There is a very old story told of the courts that if a lawyer has a good case he attacks the opposition and if he has a bad case then he shouts. We can judge the case the last Deputy was making on that basis.

I was interested to hear a Mayo man making the comments he made here this evening. There was a survey carried out in this country by a Fianna Fáil Government approximately ten years ago in order to ascertain the number of really bad houses there were and the number needing repair. There were found to be more houses in County Mayo in very bad state of repair, many unhabitable, and this after approximately 15 or 16 years of continuous Fianna Fáil rule. Fianna Fáil did nothing about it. The Deputy referred to the number of houses built in 1973. I should point out that until there was a change of Government houses were not built in the west. If the Deputy cares to look up the records he will see that the first large number of houses built all over the west commenced in 1974, because it was the 1973 budget introduced by Fianna Fáil that governed the number of houses built in 1973. I would not expect the Deputy to know that; he has not been long enough here.

Mr. Flynn

I would be delighted to give the Deputy the answer.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputies, please, at some other time. Deputy Tully is in possession.

Mr. Tully

I do not intend to shout down Deputy Flynn but I would suggest that he, having made a fool of himself for half an hour, is quite enough for one evening and he should just now quietly sit down——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy, that suggestion should not be made either. The Deputy is entitled to his opinion but it should not be said in the House.

Mr. Tully

I am entitled to my opinion. I resent the Chair interfering with me.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair is suggesting to the Deputy that he should not say that any other Deputy made a fool of himself.

Mr. Tully

I am entitled to my opinion.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is entitled to think that. He is entitled to the same protection from the Chair as Deputy Flynn and he will get it.

Mr. Flynn

Do not worry about it. I will ignore——

Mr. Tully

Sir, I did not interrupt the Deputy when he was speaking. I listened very patiently to him, and I object to anybody interrupting me when I am making a contribution in this House as long as I am in order. I feel I am entitled to make my contributions without interference from anybody.

Mr. Begley

Hear, hear; good man, Jim.

Mr. Tully

The situation in regard to housebuilding was that when we took over in 1973 we were confronted by one very serious problem. That serious problem was that the Fianna Fáil Government in office beforehand—in addition to the houses erected many years before which had fallen into disrepair—had decided on a type of local authority house which had got into such disrepair that we had to spend millions on top of millions all over the country in order to render them habitable. Indeed, thousands of them had not even the basic necessity of a fireplace. But, of course, they were only for workers; they would be occupied by working class people so the attitude was: what did it matter? Fianna Fáil were not interested then and are not interested now in that type of housing. Therefore we had to spend a lot of money which could have been spent on other things, endeavouring to render those houses habitable. Unfortunately we did not succeed with all of them. I notice Fianna Fáil Deputies from the west now have questions down to the new Minister—some of them who were in office a few months ago but who having gone out of office have become very interested in knowing if it is proposed to make grants available for certain repairs to some of those houses that have not been finished. It is very interesting, and illustrates the change that can take place in a movement from one side of the House to the other.

Continuous reference has been made here to the time when a means test was applied to reconstruction and repair grants. I was responsible for the implementation of that means test because I felt then, and still feel, that people who are sufficiently wealthy should undertake their own house repairs, and that there should be as much money as possible made available to those who have not the necessary money. I make no apology to anybody for doing that.

Mr. Flynn

The Deputy is right.

Mr. Tully

What have we now? We have Fianna Fáil in their election manifesto saying they were going to introduce a new scheme. As late as January of this year there were suggestions of some type of new housing regulations being brought in with regard to repairing houses. Next we have the Minister for the Environment going down to Clare, his own constituency, saying a few words, handling in a brief, telling them to read it and to watch the nine o'clock news and getting out of it as fast as he could because he knew, as we know, that thousands of people are living in bad houses and will never be able to repair them if they have to depend on their own resources. It is all right for people with their pockets full of money to talk about being able to do repairs yourself. It is a grand thing to be able to hold up your head and say "My house has to be repaired and I am going to do it myself and I do not want State funds". The people who have not got the money necessary to do that must turn to the State. The last Deputy to speak was sneering at the idea of people feeling that £600 was of some use to them. I assumed from the way he was talking that he never felt that £600 was a lot of money, but to a man with a wife and four or five kiddies living in the country on £50 or £60 per week who, because his house is not big enough, wants to add on a little bit of additional accommodation, £500 or £600 is a lot of money to get from the State. Fianna Fáil in their usual way have decided that that is not to be done. Those people do not count, therefore they do not get the money.

Deputy Flynn apparently succeeded in getting a lot of statistics. Statistics can be thrown around the place and you can make them work in any way you like—lies, damn lies and statistics. The trouble is that for the ordinary person most people do not know what is meant by them. Most people do not get the document from which Deputy Flynn was quoting, and if they had it they would not understand it except with the aid of somebody like himself who is paid by the State. It is the job of people like him and me to see that they understand what is in such documents and, therefore, we would know, but the ordinary person does not. What ordinary people do know is that they are going to have a job done which will cost a certain amount of money. They can borrow a certain amount which they know they will be able to afford to pay, and where in the world will they get the difference? Until recently the difference was being made available by the State. When we were in office £400 was not too bad at all compared with £600 now. People who got that £400 were glad to get it and to know that that amount of assistance could be given to them. Housing costs have increased to such an enormous extent that when the figure went up to £600 while it was still very useful, it did not represent the same proportion of the cost of a job being done. This is where Fianna Fáil fell flat on their face.

Then they introduced a scheme which suggested that the people who wanted to heat their houses otherwise than by oil or gas should put in a type of heater for which they could get a grant of up to £600. Having introduced that scheme, the Minister, again down in Clare, announced it in such a way that it was quite obvious that he did not know what it was about. He came back and made a statement to the press which contradicted what he had said in Clare, and then he came into this House and contradicted again the two previous statements he had made.

Mr. Flynn

Who is shouting now?

Mr. Tully

Ask the Deputy to sit back and take some of what he was handing out. When the Minister did that the result was that we had a scheme which was supposed to save on oil. It did save on oil, there is no doubt about it. A lot of people in this country now do not use oil, but the extraordinary thing was that if a person was living in a council house or a house with a back boiler which provided him with hot water he could not get a grant under this scheme, but people who had an oil-fired system could. There was woolly thinking there.

I worked with the officials of the Department of Local Government, as it was then, for over four years. They are the finest civil servants we have ever had, and nobody on our side in this House has cast any slur on them. As long as I am in the party I will not allow any of my colleagues to cast a slur on them even if they wanted to, but they do not. These civil servants know their job and they do it and they will give the finest advice. There does not seem to have been much political motivation in the Custom House until recently. Somebody would not take that advice, and the result was that we had what we in the country long ago used to call stirabout. It was a mixture of something which was sticky and you could not be very sure of what exactly was in it. This is what this grant scheme produced. An awful lot of people became involved in this. People having started it, people having got half way through and some people having finished it, it was decided suddenly to cancel the scheme and it was cancelled. While this scheme was in operation we had the houses built by Fianna Fáil Government for local authority tenants which still have not got a fireplace. What kind of thinking is that? What kind of people do Fianna Fáil think they are dealing with?

We have had a lot of talk here tonight and last night about the system of rehousing people. The Minister present referred to the fact that the money saved was to be made available for other useful things, and Deputy Flynn wanted to know where that money would come from. I suggest that the £2.5 million spent on the executive jet could be added on for house repairs. This throwing away of money for grandeur to show how great we are should be stopped.

Mr. Flynn

That is not fair.

Mr. Tully

It is very fair comment. Even Deputy Blaney will not get a lift home in it now. That makes it a lot worse.

Mr. Flynn

He will be able to take himself.

Mr. Tully

He is well able to take himself and in this House also he is well able to look after himself, like the rest of us. In this regard the money which is being saved is supposed to be spent on new houses. God knows, it could be, because a lot of people have told me that they thought they would get into the Guinness Book of Records if they got the £1,000 they were waiting so long for it. There is no doubt at all that if we do not conserve our existing housing stocks we will find ourselves in a position where we will require a lot more houses. You cannot get away from that. The former Taoiseach said that when we were in office we were building too many local authority houses. That he and his Government meant that was proved by the fact that when they got into office the number of local authority houses started to take a nose-dive. At the time this was happening people were being told that it would be all right now, they could borrow £12,000 to build a house.

Let me make two points about this. What kind of a house will you build now for £12,000? You could build a good house a few years ago for £9,000 or £10,000 but you will not build a house for £12,000 or anything like it now. Even if you could, what is the repayment on a £12,000 local authority loan? You do not have to go very far to make out that it will cost over £30 a week for 30 years repayments, and that is for a person with an income of £60 or £70 a week. Again I am very interested in Deputy Flynn who talked about the person with a medical card who he felt would be able to get this type of loan. I do not know what way he thinks the local authorities here administer their affairs. No local authority will be allowed to lend money to a person who is not in a position to pay it back. They must be at the very limit of the £5,500 before they are allowed to borrow anything like £12,000 and with that amount of money they cannot get a medical card.

Somebody is terribly confused. That sort of thing gives the impression that anybody can walk into a local authority, borrow £12,000 and get a contractor to build a house. That is not the way it happens. Deputy Connolly will soon know about it. We have the extraordinary situation where local authority houses bought by tenants, some of which were built over 50 years ago, have been used to house people. Because of the system which Fianna Fáil reintroduced, in this city alone hundreds and maybe thousands of houses are housing two and three families each. When in office we insisted that there would be enough money made available to Dublin Corporation so that they could at least make some progress on the housing list. That appears to have been completely overlooked, and we now have two or three families living in a house without a hope of being rehoused by the local authority. These people cannot even build on to their houses now because of the abolition of the house improvement grant.

Deputy Flynn referred to the amount of the loans available from local authorities. It varies within different local authority areas. I was a member of the Meath County Council, and if somebody in Meath wished to repair a house he could get 95 per cent of the cost of the job between the local authority and Departmental grant to carry out repairs. Other local authorities have different ways of dealing with these things, but if there was not somebody on a local authority who was interested in ensuring that a poor person was looked after, that would be the end of it.

Deputy Flynn referred to the grant for the disabled person, but let us be clear that this grant is not administered by the Department of the Environment but is administered at local authority level. If they could have done away with that it would have been done away with as well. Group water and sewerage scheme grants remain, and they are very necessary. I would advise Deputy Flynn to put down a few parliamentary questions to the relevant Minister to find out how many houses still require water and sewerage facilities, and particularly how many houses in his constituency have not got water and sewerage facilities. The Deputy might be surprised, but perhaps not, as maybe what he was saying tonight was said tongue in cheek.

Deputy Flynn complimented Deputy Connolly, the new Minister of State, on his promotion and on the number of schemes which were carried out as a result of his sanction. Moses is not in it with him. If he was able to have schemes sanctioned and carried out since he was promoted a few weeks ago, Moses was wasting his time. The situation is that it takes a considerable amount of time to implement schemes. With the assistance of extra officials in the Department, I succeeded in shortening the time considerably, but I could not claim to have schemes sanctioned and carried out within three, four of five weeks. We can judge the rest of the Deputy's speech by that.

Mr. Flynn

About 94 per cent of the houses have water.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Flynn has had his say.

Mr. Tully

Indeed he has.

Mr. Flynn

Just to get the record straight 93 per cent and 96 per cent respectively have water——

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Begley

The Deputy is over-anxious.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

A lot of people are over-anxious at the moment and only Deputy Tully is in possession.

Mr. Tully

The proposal put down by the Labour Party was ably argued by Deputy Quinn. Deputy Flynn does not appear to have been involved in as many of these discussions as some of the rest of us including Deputy Quinn, and therefore might not be as good a judge of what is good or bad. Deputy Quinn's speech was presented to the House very well.

Mr. Flynn

It was good but misleading.

Mr. Tully

If it misled the Deputy I am not surprised.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Would Deputy Flynn wait for another day?

Mr. W. O'Brien

The Deputy might get a car. It is not too far away.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will the Deputy forget about the car please for God's sake and we will make some progress.

Mr. Tully

I do not object to the fact that O'Connell Bridge House was closed down, but there should have been some other way. The Minister should have come in here and admitted that he had done a damn stupid thing, that he had succeeded in having thousands of additional applications dumped on top of them, in a few weeks, and that because of that they were swamped with work that they would be unable to deal with and that something would have to be done. It should have been possible to have at least one line open so that people who were in a bad way about their grants would be able to make an enquiry.

Deputy Flynn said that the people carrying out house improvement repairs and so on were doing nixers, and I did not like that comment. I know of decent one man, two man and three man jobs employed in repairing houses down through the years, and those people when working are always in need of money. Sometimes people can pay them in advance, but more often than not they have to wait until they get some money from the Department.

It is not fair to come in here under the protection of the House and say that these people are doing nixers, that in other words they are dishonest. They are not dishonest, they are doing an honest day's work, and quite a number of them are anxious to know what will happen and if they will get paid for the work they did. I can look at the closing of the office in O'Connell Bridge House in one way but the man waiting for his money may look at it in a different way, especially if the job was finished and he expected payment within a short time.

Another worrying thing is the position in relation to people who did the jobs and who are waiting payment or are involved with the 47,000 or 48,000 applicants whose applications are bogging down the Department. When will these people get paid? I do not blame the officials, I blame the Minister who made the mistake. The Minister who made the statement made the mistake.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Tully has five minutes left.

Mr. Tully

This sort of thing is a source of big worry to many of these people. There is also the question of people who under the original scheme were attempting to repair their houses. I am sure Members like Deputy Flynn, who usually have a lot of money in their pockets, do not know what happens to the person who does not have any money.

Mr. Flynn

Every penny in my pocket was hard earned.

Mr. Tully

I did not say it was not hard earned, but, obviously, the Deputy cannot see far enough down to be aware of the person who when doing a job such as this must count every penny. It has taken some of those people up to ten years to do the work. They must do a little now and again, when they have a few extra shillings. Much as they are anxious to finish the work they must leave it from time to time because they do not have the money. Now, as those people have almost completed their work, they have been told by local authorities that because of a circular issued by the Department of the Environment they are not in a position to pay the grant.

Mr. Flynn

Surely such people would have applied for the grant before they commenced the work?

Mr. Connolly

In the month of February we paid out £1,700,000.

Mr. W. O'Brien

And then the Government closed down. The houses the Minister is talking about may have been completed years ago.

Mr. Tully

I am not interested in what was paid out because over the years considerable amounts were paid out at various times but I am concerned about the people who feel they will not be paid a grant. My concern is for those who have been notified by local authorities that because the work was not finished—worse still, because the job although finished had not been inspected—they will not receive the grant. One person told me yesterday that he had notified the local authority that the work had been completed but that the local authority did not receive the letter. His father, who originally applied for the grant, died three years ago and the son, who continued to do the work for his mother, had been told he will not get the grant. I blame the Minister for that situation.

Mr. Connolly

It is under Deputy Tully's own scheme.

Mr. Tully

I did not bring the scheme to an end; I did not wipe it out or say that such people would not be paid after a certain date. The Minister for the Environment issued that instruction and hundreds of people like the person I have referred to will not be paid a grant. As I explained earlier those people are the poorest of the poor who had to carry out the repair work periodically when the money was available. We are all aware of those people. It is not the way we would carry out repair work but we are not in the same position. I am sure such people would approach Fianna Fáil members quicker than they would approach members of the Opposition but nothing can be done for them. I suggest that the Minister should have another look at the decision and attempt to straighten out the position so as to alleviate the hardship he has caused to certain people. I am sure he will get the best possible advice from the Department officials and I ask him to accept it because it will be correct.

Mr. L. Lawlor

The effect of this decision in a constituency such as West County Dublin, which is experiencing rapid growth, has not been anything like Opposition speakers have tried to convey. The Minister is being selective in an effort to direct the funds available to other new developments such as new housing and the improvement of infrastructure rather than duplicating some of the systems already available such as the alternative heating and energy scheme. With regard to the dismal picture painted by Deputy Quinn last night I should like to state that I have not come across that in my constituency. I do not think our housing stock is in the condition he portrayed.

Mr. Begley

Another anxious Deputy.

Mr. Quinn

I should like to know if a Member is entitled to injury time.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

No.

Mr. Quinn

At the outset I should like to strike from the record a reference to a story which is not accurate in relation to an incident in O'Connell Bridge House concerning the Minister of State, Deputy Connolly. Obviously, I accept his word in relation to that. I was given to understand that the story was correct but I withdraw it unreservedly. The motion before the House deplores the Government's decision to abolish the grants and the prolonged delay in the processing of current grant applications. The Minister of State moved an amendment to that welcoming the steps taken by the Government in redeploying the public funds available for housing in the current year to ensure that priority is given to the most deserving categories of housing needs. That is nice but there was no mention of it in the manifesto. Fianna Fáil were not so concerned about redeploying funds to meet deserving housing needs when they were throwing money around like confetti. Of course, they were not building houses in those days, they were trying to buy votes. It is to the shame and to the sorrow of this country that they were successful because the money they spent and threw away did exactly as they said it would, it built the sun parlours that Deputy Connolly referred to. They converted the garages also at a time when people were still without water and the kind of basic facilities they need in this city, whatever about County Mayo. That is what the economics of the manifesto did. It is what the chaos of that manifesto did and it was not because Fianna Fáil were concerned about the housing stock but because they were concerned explicitly and exclusively with getting back into power.

Yesterday I stated that under the political management of the Minister for the Environment the Custom House, as we know it, had been relegated to the fourth division and that an official in the Department of Finance was calling the shots in relation to Government policy. To prove that I should like to refer to what the Minister of State, Deputy Connolly, said yesterday. He said that in order to put our country on a sound economic footing it was necessary that the community should stop living beyond their means and, especially, that the extent of taxation and public borrowing should be rigidly controlled. He said that in this context every aspect of public expenditure has had to be critically examined and some services, however desirable from a public point of view, suspended or curtailed. Against that background, he said, it was inevitable that the nature and scope of the Government's investment in housing would have to be included in that review. That was Department of Finance English if anybody has an ear to listen to it.

Mr. Connolly

That is not correct.

Mr. Quinn

That is what the Minister of State read.

Mr. Connolly

Yes, but——

Mr. Quinn

But the Minister did not write it? That is fair enough.

Mr. Connolly

I am well able to make up my own mind.

Mr. Quinn

The Minister of State is on record as having uttered those words and if he now states that they are not his that is his problem.

Mr. Tully

He has just explained now that they came from the Minister for Finance.

Mr. Connolly

It was not the Minister for Finance. If I conveyed that impression I apologise.

Mr. Quinn

I accept that apology, through the Chair. That recognition of the relegation of the Department of the Environment is implicit in the paragraph I referred to, irrespective of who phrased the words. I also recognise that the Taoiseach, having won the glittering prize, can now turn around and tear up the manifesto that put him into that position. That is what we are witnessing now. In June 1977 there was no concern about deserving cases or any suggestion that those who could afford to build on a sun parlour would pay for it out of their on pockets. Instead, they were to get a grant of £600, plus the instant abolition of rates.

The Labour Party have always maintained that a capitalist system is fundamentally irrational and that when it starts to get into a recession it lashes out at everybody. The most vulnerable and the weakest are those who are hit first. Every day I have been in this House Fianna Fáil have given evidence and proof to that fundamental truth as I know it. In this instance, having abolished rates on mansions as well as council houses, having given grants for the erection of sun parlours—to use the Minister's words—as well as for the provision of toilets, Fianna Fáil have run into an economic squall caused on part by international contradictions in relation to the price of energy but caused equally as much by the mismanagement of the economy. At that stage in the crisis the Government do a turn about and, with the irrationality of capitalism, hit at everybody.

The people who are hit most by such a response are, as Deputy Tully said, those trying to build on an extra bedroom, to bring in a water supply or to extend the life of their houses. That is the lesson of this entire episode. There is an element of farce in it but there is also in it a real dimension of tragedy. I do not know what is Deputy Flynn's knowledge of the building industry but I assure him that those workers who have union cards as well as those who do not have them and also the small building contractors who for many years have been providing an essential service are being squeezed by the same forces of constriction in relation to the supply of materials. Credit for them has been virtually eliminated. They are being squeezed by the banks which Fianna Fáil have refused to take into public control and they are now being squeezed by O'Connell Bridge House which is closed for business until 14 April.

Mr. Flynn

They were on the dole when the Coalition were in office.

Mr. Quinn

that is not true.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Quinn is in posession.

Mr. Connolly

During the Coalition period of Government there was a reduction of 12,000 men in the labour force of the building industry.

(Interruptions).

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Quinn mist be allowed make his contribution.

Mr. Connolly

I merely wished to clarify the position.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister must find another time for that.

Mr. Quinn

No doubt, in regard to the Estimate for the Department of the Environment the Minister will be as short with his time as he was in Clarecastle when he made this announcement. I have made the economic case in relation to the mismanagement of funds by Fianna Fáil. There would be some degree of justice in this if the money belonged to Fianna Fáil, but the tragedy is that what is involved is taxpayers' money. I regret that, due to the pressure of time and to the way in which we structure debates here, Deputy Blaney, as a former Minister for Local Government with a record that many people would be proud to have, has not been able to come in on this debate.

A cardinal point of housing policy and one that was emphasised in both of the White Papers published in the sixties is the need to conserve the housing stock. With the 75 per cent home ownership of which we boast so much we must have a corresponding system of aid and support to ensure that the housing stock is maintained and improved. Perhaps I should be talking to the relevant official in the Department of Finance, but suffice it to say that the Minister has thrown out the baby with the bath water.

The other point we made reference to in our motion but to which the Minister did not refer in his amendment was that we deplore the prolonged delay in the processing of current grant applications. Every Deputy and Senator knows that for no personal reason of the Minister in question these grants have got to the stage of total chaos. In two weeks the Minister has succeeded in provoking 44,000 grant applications whereas during the past year there was an average of 1,000 per week. There is not any administrative system capable of responding reasonably or properly or such a situation. We here are in a position to make telephone calls or to table answers for written replies about the situation, but what about the hundreds of people who are entitled to these grants and who should not have to approach a local representative in relation to them? Because of the political mismanagement that has been perpetrated on the Department of the Environment serious damage has been caused to our democratic society. Many people know now that unless one goes through the channel of approaching either a Deputy or a councillor in order to have representations made to the Minister of State who, incidentally, always replies courteously, they will not get the kind of response they want. The old myth that has beggared this country for so many years will be reinforced, that is, that you will only get something done if you know a Deputy or somebody in the Government. The whole horse trading, favouritism and parliamentary paternalism from which this country has suffered for so long will be reinforced by what is being done. That was an intrinsic part of our resolution and one to which Deputy Flynn did not find time to address himself. We are arguing that in addition to the financial mismanagement on the part of the Government combined with the mismanagement of the economy generally in the past two years, substantial psychological damage has been done to the process of liberation that should take place in a country with our kind of education levels. Instead, we have reintroduced a sense of dependence, a sense of needing to know someone in the Dáil in order to get a grant to which there is entitlement in the first place.

I do not know how the other two parties feel about that, but we are opposed strongly to it. I regret that one of the side effects of this sorry spectacle will be the reality that no matter what the Minister decides to do regarding the 44,000 applications now on his desk——

Mr. Flynn

But the Deputy will agree——

Mr. Quinn

The Deputy has had a fair whack at this.

Mr. Connolly

All the applications have been acknowledged.

Mr. Quinn

I am not interested in the acknowledgements. I would prefer if the public would go direct to the Department and leave the Minister of State and me to get on with other business.

Mr. Flynn

It is not necessary for applicants to make reference to any politician.

Mr. Quinn

O'Connell Bridge House has been closed for business as a result of the chaos caused by the decision made by the Minister for the Environment. No matter how hard the officials in the Custom House work that process of reducing the credibility of the Custom House and of the civil service generally will be maintained. Every Deputy must deplore that situation.

It is easy to table a motion deploring mistakes that have been made, but it is the task of the Opposition to oppose anything they consider to be contrary to the interests of the country. I should hope that we have been as constructive as possible. I have quoted from Fianna Fáil policy, from the four White Papers in which there was reference to the necessity to maintain and improve the housing stock. Did the people on the other side believe that when they used taxpayers' money to have it printed or were they merely using words to cover up something else that was going on on the Government side? But how can we regard them as being serious in the light of the action taken on 21 January? I suggest strongly that the resolution on my name and in the names of the other Labour Deputies has been well argued and has not been countered by the amendment moved by the Minister of State. Consequently, I call on the House to support our motion.

Amendment put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 61; Nil, 42.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Moore and Briscoe; Níl, Deputies B. Desmond and L'Estrange.

Amendment declared carried.

Tá

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Kit.Allen, Lorcan.Andrews, David. Briscoe, Ben.Browne, Seán.Callanan, John.Calleary, Seán.Cogan, Barry.Colley, George.Connolly, Gerard.Cowen, Bernard.Crinion, Brendan.Daly, Brendan.Doherty, Seán.Fahey, Jackie.Farrell, Joe.Faulkner, Pádraig.Filgate, Eddie.Fitzgerald, Gene.Fitzsimons, James N.Flynn, Pádraig.Fox, Christopher J.French, Seán.Gallagher, Dennis.Gallagher, James.Herbert, Michael.Hussey, Thomas.Keegan, Seán.Killeen, Tim.Killilea, Mark.

Andrews, Niall.Aylward, Liam.Barrett, Sylvester.Brady, Vincent. Lawlor, Liam.Lemass, Eileen.Lenihan, Brian.Leonard, Jimmy.Leonard, Tom.Leyden, Terry.Loughnane, William.McEllistrim, Thomas.MacSharry, Ray.Molloy, Robert.Moore, Seán.Morley, P. J.Murphy, Ciarán P.Nolan, Tom.Noonan, Michael.O'Connor, Timothy C.O'Kennedy, Michael.O'Leary, John.Power, Paddy.Reynolds, Albert.Smith, Michael.Tunney, Jim.Walsh, Joe.Walsh, Seán.Woods, Michael J.Wyse, Pearse.

Níl
Barry, Myra.Barry, Peter.Barry, Richard.Begley, Michael.Belton, Luke.Bermingham, Joseph.Bruton, John.Burke, Joan.Burke, Liam.Byrne, Hugh.Cluskey, Frank.Conlan, John F.Corish, Brendan.Cosgrave, Liam.Cosgrave, Michael J.Creed, Donal.Crotty, Kieran.D'Arcy, Michael J.Desmond, Barry.Enright, Thomas W.Fitzpatrick, Tom (Cavan-Monaghan).	Griffin, Brendan.Harte, Patrick D.Keating, Michael.Kelly, John.Kenny, Enda.L'Estrange, Gerry.McMahon, Larry.Mitchell, Jim.Murphy, Michael P.O'Brien, Fergus.O'Brien, William.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Toole, Paddy.Pattison, Séamus.Quinn, Ruairi.Ryan, John J.Taylor, Frank.Timmins, Godfrey.Treacy, Seán.Tully, James.White, James.

Motion, as amended, put and agreed to.