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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 29 May 1980

Vol. 321 No. 7

Taoiseach's Meeting with British Prime Minister: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann notes the terms of the joint communique issued after the meeting in London on 21st May, 1980, between the Taoiseach and the British Prime Minister.

This debate should, I feel, begin with a review of the present situation in Northern Ireland.

Regretfully, the picture which we see is a dismal and unhappy one. Northern Ireland today does not conform to the normal standards which prevail in Western Europe. Many of the characteristics which give Western democratic society its flavour and quality and make it a satisfying way of life for free men and women are missing in Northern Ireland. It is sad but necessary to have to say this.

Why have the one-and-a-half million people who live in the six counties of Northern Ireland, and who share the common heritage of the Western world, and so many of its attributes, not been able to provide for themselves the same kind of satisfying community life? It is important that we be absolutely clear as to the reasons why normal community life does not exist in Northern Ireland to-day.

The answer is that the political structures under which the community lives and through which it is expected to express its needs and requirements are inadequate and fail to meet the realities of the situation.

The difficulties in Northern Ireland do not arise solely from history or religious belief as is so often suggested. There are other parts of Europe where religious antagonisms have been inherited or where religious differences exist but which are not in a state of permanent instability because of these factors. They are not so because appropriate structures at national level have been devised to ensure that the aspirations and ambitions of the different communities are adequately expressed and their traditions respected.

This is not the case in Northern Ireland. Successive political structures established during the 60 years since the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, have not worked satisfactorily. Northern Ireland is not a natural geographical or historical unit. Its boundaries do not reflect any underlying reality of race or culture. They were in fact decided upon to create the largest possible unit in which people of unionist leanings or persuasion would have a permanent built-in majority. A large unit might have eroded that majority, a smaller one would not have been viable.

Any administration which has existed in Northern Ireland has been virtually unique in this—that it excluded from the possibility of participation in Government representatives of a large minority of the population. The structure of government was such that one-party rule continued and was perpetuated by the system for more than 50 years. The swings of politics as they exist in the United Kingdom and in this country, just could not operate. The result was that the minority community in Northern Ireland could never take part in the administration by which they were governed. There could not be full identification, such as exists in democracies everywhere, with the full process of government. The form of that exclusion, and its consequences, should never be overlooked by anyone considering possibilities for the administration of Northern Ireland.

An inherent flaw in the arrangements for Northern Ireland is that they seek to cut off the area from its natural economic, social and cultural hinterland and artificially attach it to another political entity. Until this basic flaw in the structure is rectified there will never be, because there cannot be, a lasting and stable solution.

All the people of Northern Ireland have suffered greatly from this situation. The statistics clearly indicate the depressing consequences. The population of Northern Ireland, which had been increasing up to the early 1970s is now static or, perhaps, declining. Unemployment in some areas is between 20 per cent and 30 per cent and has been of that order for generations. Industrial output is lower now that it was in the 1970s. Because the traditional industries like textiles and shipbuilding, on which it substantially depended, have been hit with particular severity, Northern Ireland is de-industrialising perhaps more rapidly than any other region in the European Community.

Agriculture in Northern Ireland has failed to benefit, to any significant extent, from membership of the European Community. Agricultural output there seems to be lower than, or at about the same level, as in the early 1970s, while here it has gone up in volume terms by more than a third, and, in net value, it is over four times what it was in the early 1970s.

More than 60 per cent of the working population in Northern Ireland is engaged in service industries—largely the public services. This accounts, in part, for the very considerable drain on the British Exchequer which the area now represents. Northern Ireland has, in fact, moved from a position, in the late 1930s, when it used to make a contribution to the cost of imperial services, to a point where the contribution from the British Exchequer is now about the same as the total British contribution to the European Community.

There is a basic structural weakness in the economy, cut off as it is from any substantial hinterland and without any real say in its own management. And there is a deeper and more fundamental feeling of malaise in Northern Ireland which is not subject to measurement. Indeed, the very fabric of society there could be threatened as traditional values struggle to survive against the economic pressures.

The present situation in Northern Ireland benefits nobody. It should be clear to all that a centre of instability on this island, which occupies such a key geographical position is not in the best interest of the people of any part of Ireland, Britain or, indeed, the western world as a whole.

Northern Ireland is a source of constant anxiety and anguish to us. It affects our whole political, economic and cultural life. The cost of the security measures it forces us to adopt is a serious drain on our resources.

Britain, too, loses heavily from the present position in Northern Ireland. It costs her dearly in money, resources and, tragically, in human life itself. Her status and prestige throughout the world are diminished because of Northern Ireland.

This is some of the background to my meeting on Wednesday, 21 May, with the British Prime Minister, Mrs. Thatcher. I was accompanied by the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Brian Lenihan. The Prime Minister was accompanied for all or part of the meeting by Lord Carrington, Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and Mr. Humphrey Atkins, Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and Sir Ian Gilmour, the Lord Privy Seal. In all, our discussions lasted for approximately four hours. They were friendly, useful and constructive.

The Prime Minister and I discussed Community matters in some detail. We also discussed other matters affecting our interests, either jointly or separately. These include the operations of the UNIFIL force in the Lebanon and the dangers of a wider war in the Middle East, what is happening in Iran, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and the efforts being made to mobilise world opinion against this open violation of sovereignty.

All these items underlined the background against which we must approach the situation in Northern Ireland. There is a common thread running through them. The world has now become a much more tense and dangerous place than it was even a few short years ago.

I put our views on the situation in Northern Ireland and on other issues before the Prime Minister, who listened with great interest and attention. She, for her part, told me of the difficulties facing the British Government as she saw them. The discussion was of a confidential nature and therefore the extent to which I can report on the talks is limited. However, I can say that our discussion was beneficial. In any political exchange of this sort it is of vital importance that each participant should fully understand the position of the other, should appreciate the views held, the reasons on which they are based and the problems which exist. From that point of view the discussions were entirely successful. I believe that there is now in the minds of the British Government a clear understanding of our position and, certainly for my part, there is a better understanding of the light in which the British Government see the problem.

Our meeting was not just simply an expression of contrary views which ended in an agreement to disagree, as some commentators have sought to suggest. The agreed communique issued after the meeting, and which I have laid before both Houses, clearly indicates that there was a great deal more involved than that.

I would like to direct attention to certain aspects of the communique. Firstly, there is the decision to meet regularly and develop a closer political co-operation. This is a new dimension in Anglo-Irish relations. It is something we intend to make important and significant.

As an independent sovereign state, we are prepared to be forward-looking and progressive in developing this new and closer political co-operation. We are prepared to make arrangements with any country on the basis of equality and mutual benefit.

Britain is our nearest neighbour, with whom we have many common interests and a close economic relationship. It makes sense that we should also provide a framework within which close political co-operation can be developed. The communique goes on to state that we reviewed the prospects for political progress in Northern Ireland. This review looked deeply into the situation, the attitudes prevailing, the difficulties and the possibilities for progress.

The next sentence in the communique is of particular significance. It states that, while agreeing that a change in the constitutional status of Northern Ireland would only come about with the agreement of a majority there, I re-affirmed the wish of the Irish Government to secure the unity of Ireland by agreement and in peace. That is our aim. We seek an arrangement whereby all Irishmen, no matter what their traditions, would manage the affairs of this island without British participation but with active British interest and goodwill. This aspiration for unity is a fact of history, of geography, of politics, of the deepest feelings and sentiments of the vast majority of Irishmen everywhere. That aspiration will not go away, nor can it be put away as long as Irishmen inhabit this island. To propose or suggest a solution which takes no account of it is to fail to understand the very nature of the problem and the situation.

Ideally, we would like to see the British Government express an interest in the ultimate achievement of unity. If that interest were declared we could then start working together, the Government here, the British Government and Irishmen of every tradition in the North, towards a solution which will guarantee permanent peace and stability. I would like, therefore, to see the British Government modifying the present guarantee by adding a positive element, a new departure that would open the door to progress. I have in mind that the Northern majority would be invited to look at unity as a prospect offering them great advantage.

We totally reject force as a means of obtaining our aim. We seek our objective only by peaceful means. The words of the communique acknowledge our basic position. These words "come about" place the emphasis on the practical realities of the situation. This is entirely compatible with our view that while no part of the Irish nation has the right to opt out of the nation, we recognise that unity cannot be imposed by force, and can only come about by negotiation and agreement.

The last sentence of this paragraph acknowledges, and I believe for the first time in such a document, the unique nature of the relationship that obtains between the people of Britain and of both parts of Ireland. It is our intention to proceed to build on and to develop this unique relationship.

Finally the communique refers to the degree of success being achieved in the fight against violence and subversion.

I believe these talks in London on 21 May 1980 represent an important and significant development in the relationship between Britain and Ireland. I further believe that within the context of that relationship some solution to this age old problem, some new way forward, can and must be found.

In searching for this new way forward we must recognise that the problem cannot be solved in the context of Northern Ireland alone. Sixty years of failure have surely shown that beyond doubt. When a problem remains unsolved for over 60 years and no way forward can be found within the existing framework then we must find some other answer and seek to bring about some fundamental change so that slowly but surely we alter the terms of the problem as a whole.

As there are three dimensions to the problem of Northern Ireland, there must be three dimensions to a solution. The first of these dimensions is the relationship between the different sections of the community in Northern Ireland. There can be no solution which does not provide for the needs and aspirations of these different sections and through which their differences can be accommodated and their respective traditions safeguarded.

The second dimension is the relationship between Northern Ireland and the rest of the country. This relationship derives from geographic, economic, political, cultural and social realities. Any proposed solution must take account of all these realities. For ten years now we have been exposed almost daily to the spectacle of violence. Even if it takes place across a political border it has a deep effect on our national consciousness and our psychology. It cannot be too strongly emphasised to the people of Britain that there is a significant difference between their situation and ours. For us the tragedy of Northern Ireland is taking place daily on this our island. We are not distant spectators. We are involved, and we must be involved, in the ultimate solution.

The British Government have engaged in a conference designed to ascertain the highest level of agreement among the parties there on the question of how or whether to transfer to the elected representatives of the people of Northern Ireland greater responsibility for the conduct of their own affairs. I have been criticised on the basis that I have dismissed, out of hand, any possible solution that might emerge from that conference. That criticism is not valid. What I am seeking to do is to describe the realities of the situation. Suffice it to say that my heart sinks at the prospect of the people of Northern Ireland being forced once more to travel down the old sterile road of failed initiatives.

Because every time hope is falsely renewed violent men take advantage of the inevitable disillusionment that follows. Repeated collapse of what are called new initiatives, but which in fact are merely old initiatives in newer and more unconvincing disguise, adds gravely to the feelings on both sides of the channel that there is really nothing that can be done. This, in turn, breeds a sort of fatalism which perhaps is as depressing as anything else that has emerged. This is what I have been at pains to warn against.

We are also seeking to point out that an administration cannot succeed if a substantial minority do not accept it and fail to identify with it. And a substantial minority in Northern Ireland will not identify with an administration in which they have no say and can never have a say. Sixty years of history, 60 years of experience, confirm this fact. That is the reality and we I suggest, ignore it at our peril.

Furthermore, a solution based solely on the internal situation in Northern Ireland is likely to repeat the tragic mistakes of past decades. Northern Ireland cannot afford another failure like that. We cannot look unconcerned at the prospect of anything that is likely to bring the institutions of democratic government into further disrepute. Another failure now can damage the outlook for legitimate politics in Northern Ireland for a long time to come, de-stabilise society still further, and strengthen the role of violence which it is in all our interest to quell.

I am sometimes asked to put forward some kind of blueprint for a United Ireland. My reply is that in this context it is not any blueprint of mine that is important. What is important is the extent to which the Ireland I favour would have to be changed and altered to accommodate those whose traditions and attitudes are different from mine. This could only be ascertained in a meaningful way through patient dialogue and discussion.

I am prepared at any time to enter into discussion with representatives of any tradition in these islands. I say now, clearly, that the people who regard their tradition as being far removed from ours would be surprised at the length to which we would be prepared to go in such discussions to accommodate them, to give guarantees and undertakings, to protect and safeguard their interests and traditions.

The third of the dimensions to which I have referred concerns relations between Ireland and Britain. Relations between our two countries are good. There is co-operation between us in many different ways and on different levels. We now feel there is scope for furthering this unique relationship and in doing so to advance the cause of peace and reconciliation in Ireland.

The agreement between the British Prime Minister and myself to meet and to develop new and closer political co-operation between our two Governments is a new and significant development in the tangled web of relationships between the people of these islands. I believe that it is in this context of closer political co-operation that a permanent and lasting solution to the problem of Northern Ireland can be found. As an initial contribution to a better understanding we have, as the House knows, volunteered to bring forward proposals whereby British citizens resident in Ireland will be entitled to vote in our national elections just as Irish people residing in Britain can do.

What I am saying is that we must find some new relationship, some new basis of discussion, within the three dimensions I have outlined, so that we can move the problem of Northern Ireland out of the old rigidities onto a new plane where legitimate aspirations can be taken into account and promoted and, at the same time, the old fears which dominate thoughts and attitudes can be mitigated and removed from the scene.

We have set ourselves the objective of finding a solution and a solution, I believe, will come. It will require persistence, imagination and flexibility. It cannot come from Irishmen alone, for Irishmen alone do not fully control the situation. On my recent visit to Downing Street I had clearly in my mind the fact that the hinge of the door that must be opened is there in London. We want the British Government to understand that we have here on the island of Ireland a steadily deteriorating and increasingly intolerable situation of which we are far more than spectators, of which we share the effects, and for the ending of which we are ready to shoulder our share of responsibility.

In the view of the Irish Government what is now required is a willingness on the part of the two sovereign Governments, in London and Dublin respectively, to address the problem jointly by setting a wholly new context and encouraging progress towards a settlement. An immediate solution to such a longstanding and difficult issue is not of course possible, but steps can now be taken to establish a new framework for a solution. This would take full account of all that has changed in the relations between the two islands and in Western Europe since Northern Ireland was first established.

Indeed, I am hopeful that a process of better understanding has begun. We want the people of Britain to know our deep concern about the situation and that we are prepared to play our part in ending it. But they too must play their part.

For too long relations in this island have been characterised by suspicion and fear. Let me underline and emphasise again that in our approach we pose no threat to the people of Northern Ireland. We have no wish to coerce, to dominate, or to take over. Our history and our lives are too closely intermingled and we ourselves have suffered too much from the attempts of others to impose their will on us ever to seek a solution along those lines.

Our approach is positive. Our suggestion for a new acknowledgement by Britain of the political reality, in all its dimensions, offers to unionists a way forward and a role in the management of the affairs of all this island.

Mrs. Thatcher, on the steps of 10 Downing Street entering upon office as Prime Minister of Great Britain, quoted St. Francis of Assisi and said "Where there is discord may we bring harmony". I would like to think that those words will have a prophetic relevance for the people of both Britain and Ireland in the years ahead.

Northern Ireland has been troubled now to a greater or lesser extent during the entire 60 years of its existence. There are tensions built into its very foundations which affect the whole structure of society there and erupt in violence from time to time.

Those who know the people of Northern Ireland know the potential for cultural, social and economic development that lies in their ability and their character and are all the more conscious of the great loss that the present situation represents. I would like to invite everyone to look at what might be.

My interest in achieving political progress derives from my concern for the people of Northern Ireland. My earnest wish is to contribute in my time towards their safety and their well-being. I wish to eliminate the causes of antagonism and division and to encourage that which will promote understanding, friendship and co-operation. I hope that the London talks and this debate will make a contribution to opening up some new perspectives; will help us to get out on to some new ground where arrangements can be worked out to give the people of this island a satisfactory way of combining together to promote their common welfare.

We in this island are weary of the sterile divisions which have kept us apart for far too long. We are sick of the violence which is damaging the name of Ireland around the world. We want to get rid of the fears and suspicions which have plagued past generations and inflicted untold misery and loss on the people of Ireland as a whole. Our offer is sincerely and honestly meant. It is realistic. We ask that it be carefully listened to and calmly considered away from the strident voices which in the past have blocked the way to progress in Ireland.

My desire and that of my party is to maintain as far as possible a common position on Northern Ireland with other parties here and, secondly, never under any circumstances to seek political advantage on this issue. This involves, however, first identifying the essential elements of a common position and adherence to these by all and, secondly, allowing constructive criticism of tactics or statements which may be viewed as unhelpful to the achievement of the agreed objective.

So far as the question of a common position is concerned, in a speech at Portora College on 22 February shortly after the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis—only one section of that speech, a parenthesis on what I thought to be the privately held British political attitudes to Irish unity, received any publicity at the time—I drew attention first to the avoidance by the Taoiseach in his Ard Fheis speech of any reference to the 1975 Fianna Fáil policy statement about the British commitment to withdraw and to his reference in that speech to the unity of Ireland being achieved "by agreement and in peace", as well as to his pointed refusal to re-commit himself to the October 1975 policy in the Dáil a few days later when pressed on his Northern Ireland policy. I drew the conclusion in that speech at Portora that on the essentials of policy we remained agreed, although we would have criticisms to make on tactics and on expressions used in formulating the Government's position.

It is not enough just to avoid a reversion to the October 1975 policy and to adhere to the concept of unity by consent if other statements on Northern Ireland are not consistent with and supportive of this principle. There is no room for discordant voices or for ambiguity on this issue. Both discordance and ambiguity can undermine the positive value of the policy of unity by consent, and the weakness of the Fianna Fáil policy has traditionally lain, in that party's inability to grasp this and to carry through the logic of unity by consent. On the basis of the Taoiseach's statements to date, this remains a weakness of the present Government's policy, despite some evident efforts to minimise this problem which I recognise.

It is, of course, understandable that a temptation should exist to take up positions or to make statements that are not compatible with the "consent" approach because of the persistently negative attitude of Northern Unionist leaders, even on issues that could not constitute a threat to their position. A question comes easily to many of our lips as to why this minority in the island of Ireland and in the two islands should have a veto on progress either towards devolved self-government with participation of the minority in the North or towards constructive development of North-South relations. And if we concede them such a veto, are we abandoning the minority in the North, who have suffered so grievously both through discrimination over half-a-century of devolved majority government, and at the hands of IRA intimidation, murder campaigns by Protestant paramilitaries, and harassment, at times in the past acute, by security forces?

In so far as it relates to the problem of devolved self-government within Northern Ireland, this emotional reaction is one which corresponds in some measure, I believe, to a rational perception of an appropriate path ahead. The very insistence of a majority in Northern Ireland on their continuing participation in the United Kingdom at this time, and on the maintenance of the sovereignty of the UK Parliament, deprives them of a rational democratic argument for resisting decisions of that Parliament as to the form devolution may take. By their own theory of British sovereignty, the Unionists concede to Westminster the final voice in this matter.

The position with respect to responding emotionally to the North-South situation is of its nature quite different. Our Parliament and people are pledged to the proposition that unity can and should come about only with the consent of a majority in Northern Ireland. By this pledge we recognise that whatever the historical origins of the division of the island may be, and whatever legalistic or historical arguments may be put forward for the thesis that self-determination in Ireland should be on the basis of the whole island, and the whole island alone—there was an echo of that in the Taoiseach's speech— the only practical way in which, as a Christian people, we can seek to restore the political unity of the island is by the consent of a majority.

I say a majority and not the majority in Northern Ireland, and such a majority could comprise various combinations of the two sections of the community there ranging, for example, from the entire Roman Catholic population plus a quarter of the Protestant population, to, for example, three-quarters of the Roman Catholic population and two-fifths of the Protestant population.

I emphasise this point because I believe there is sometimes confusion about it; there are some who see in the proposition of "unity by consent" the granting of a right of veto to the majority section of the population in Northern Ireland as a group, but this is simply not the case. The proportion of the Protestant population whose consent would be needed to a change in the North-South relationship could range from one-quarter upwards, depending on the degree of commitment of the Roman Catholic population to such a solution which, it must be said, has been suggested by many surveys to fall somewhat short of 100 per cent. At the same time many would concede the unwisdom of seeking to effect a fundamental change in North-South relationships on the basis of a single referendum yielding a majority of fractionally over 50 per cent of those voting. A solidly-based arrangement for the government of the whole of Ireland might, in wisdom, require something more than that.

Without wishing to divert from my main theme at this point—which is, the manner in which emotional reactions to what is seen as a Northern Unionist veto on political progress between North and South sometimes tempts politicians here into counter-productive statements—I should, I think, add that this point about the nature of the majority required to secure a basis for a new North-South relationship is very relevant to the question—to which I shall turn later—of what kind of steps we here could usefully take in order to encourage Northern Unionists to take a further look at the idea of North and South working together. Frequently a proposition to the effect that we should take certain actions here to encourage this development is met with the response that nothing we can do will change the minds of a majority of Northern Unionists.

But we do not have to change the minds of a majority of Northern Unionists. Neither our formula nor that employed by the British Government requires anything of the kind. Depending upon the solidity with which the minority of the Northern community endorses the idea of a new North South relationship, we need to convince as little as a quarter of the Protestant population of our proposition, for a majority to merge in favour of change. And both before the violence began, and even today after ten years of violence, which has hardened many liberal hearts amongst the Unionist community, there exists a significant minority of Protestants in Northern Ireland who do see the eventual solution as lying in a new relationship between North and South, and who, as I hear from them every time I visit Northern Ireland, are utterly frustrated at what seems to them our unwillingness to do anything to help them convert others to this belief. But to that theme I shall return later.

At this point I simply want to remark that it is these irrational emotions, conflicting with a rational analysis of the policies best pursued in the interest of the minority, of peace in Northern Ireland, and of an eventual resolution of the North-South problem, that have at different times led one or other political figures in this part of Ireland to a use of language or exposition of ideas that are counter-productive. Sometimes such counter-productive language has been used, or such ideas expressed in simple ignorance, without any real understanding of the damage they do to the cause we should all be seeking to serve. Sometimes, however, they have been more calculated, designed to play on popular feelings in this State so as to secure domestic political advantage. Then they are unforgivable.

Let us be clear on the logic of the stance on "unity by consent". This implies the creation of conditions in which North and South come together because a majority in Northern Ireland favour such a solution as being in their interest. For this to happen two sets of conditions have to be created. First, the removal of obstacles to the evolution of such a majority within Northern Ireland, and, secondly, the development of positive incentives towards a coming together of North and South. Some attempt has been made, albeit intermittently, and rather half-heartedly, to remove some of the obstacles. Very little has been done to create positive incentives. Indeed, to be frank, it is hard to think of anything concrete yet done under this heading, apart from the proposals put forward by Fine Gael 15 months ago which, for the first time that I am aware of in the history of the State, argued rationally the case for Northern Ireland joining with us on the basis of advantages which Northern Ireland could gain from such a relationship.

What are the obstacles that must first be removed? The very first, which transcends all else, is the removal of fear, that all-persuasive fear that is shared by the bulk of the Unionist community, the fear of being constrained to accept a solution in which they might lose their identity, even their freedom, as they define that term. This fear of being constrained to accept a solution that they at present reject is heightened by every act on our part that departs in any way from the principle of unity by free consent. It is heightened, for example by a reversion to the type of sentiment expressed in the Taoiseach's speech today, that "no part of the Irish nation has a right to opt out of the nation", a phrase which, whatever the waves of emotion or of abstract constitutional theory behind it, is calculated to raise the hackles of even the most moderate Northern Unionist. It is heightened also by talk of a solution to be arrived at by the two sovereign governments, where this is not explicitly accompanied by a simultaneous reference to the full involvement of the representatives of the people of Northern Ireland. For, most of all, the Unionists fear what they would describe as a British betrayal, and the events of the past ten years, seen from their viewpoint, are interpreted as containing already elements of such a betrayal—the abolition of Stormont, and in what they see, however perversely as we may view it, as the failure of the British Government to assure their security.

The Taoiseach did not show himself sensitive to this fear when he spoke in his Ard-Fheis speech of the time having "surely come for the two sovereign governments to work together to find a formula and lift the situation on to a new plane". Secondly, Unionist fears are heightened by any attempt to bring overt external pressures to bear on the UK Government to "persuade" it to force a solution to the problem of North South relations over the heads of a majority in Northern Ireland.

To revert to the previous point, I should like to state that when pressed by me in this House the Taoiseach finally accepted that the democratically elected parties in Northern Ireland would have to be fully involved in any discussions towards a solution, but this belated qualification of his Ard Fheis speech, extracted under pressure, did little or nothing to undo the unfortunate impression created by the part of his Ard Fheis speech, in so far, indeed, as that Dáil exchange penetrated the Northern media at all.

Thirdly, Unionist fears are heightened by anything which confirms their belief that the Roman Catholic Church exercises significant influence on the political affairs of this State. Little has been done to dispel this illusion. There are hundreds of thousands of people in Northern Ireland who believe that we politicians in some way "take our orders" from this Church. There is almost total unawareness in the North of the degree of separation of Church and State here, of the constitutional provisions that ban the endowment of religion, and of the marked distinction, indeed, which exists between the United Kingdom and ourselves, with a State-established Church in the former, and a Church completely unconnected with the State here.

Given that factual situation we have to ask ourselves why this impression is so prevalent in the North, and what we can do about it, for it is a potent source of fear amongst the Protestant, Unionist, community, and no one who has any real knowledge of Northern Ireland can dismiss it.

The Catholic Church itself has offered us some assistance in this matter. After a confrontation four years ago between a bishop of the National Coalition government—I am sorry, a Minister of the National Coalition government; it was a somewhat Freudian slip—between a Minister in the National Coalition Government and the Bishop of Limerick on the issue of Church-State relations, I entered this controversy myself with a view to preventing what seemed an absurd polarisation of extreme views that did not, I felt, reflect the consensus of either Church or politicians or people. The position I put forward in that speech in April 1976 was that it is not the function of legislators to follow the views of the Church to which they belong when legislating, but that they must put their public morality on a broader and more fundamental basis. Two months later in June 1976 the Catholic Hierarchy enunciated their position on the matter by saying that the issue is not one of the State enforcing or not enforcing Catholic morality; "The question to be decided in matters of this kind as far as the State law is concerned, is the impact on society which a change in the law would be likely to have".

It might seem that this would have settled the matter of Church-State relations, and at the formal level, it has. But it is not perceived by many Northern Unionists as having done so. They judge us not by our words, but by our deeds; they judge us politicians not by the words of the Bishops but by the actions of Governments. And their suspicion that the absence of any formal link between the Catholic Church and politicians does not prevent legislation from being strongly influenced by the teaching of that Church were given ample grounds by the way in which the Taoiseach as Minister for Health and Minister for Social Welfare, handled the contraception legislation, producing what he described as "an Irish solution to an Irish problem".

That legislation, in its use of specifically Roman Catholic terminology about "natural family planning", was denominational and was seen as such in Northern Ireland. It did lasting damage, by re-opening an issue which was perhaps dying, as time distanced us from the period back in the thirties that saw the introduction into our Constitution and laws of specifically Roman Catholic concepts, and the period in the fifties of the Mother and Child Health controversy and the original adoption legislation, which forbade adoptions by couples who had contracted mixed marriages.

The man who last year piloted through the House legislation that employed this denominational language and was clearly influenced by Catholic teaching in its provisions for doctors' authorisations for medically-unrelated contraceptives, is not credible to Northern Unionists as an exponent of a pluralist united Ireland. He is precluded by virtue of this performance from presenting himself as an apostle of a united Ireland in which what Unionists see as their rights could be subject to the will of a political majority in the island which they see as having been, as late as last year, impelled to introduce aspects of the teaching of one Church into legislation.

These may be and are unpalatable words, but it is time we faced this issue. Northern Unionists will fear a united Ireland so long as the other and larger part of that united Ireland, regardless of constitutional separation of Church and State, and regardless of the Hierarchy's own enunciation of the duties of Catholic legislators as not requiring them to incorporate Catholic teaching into legislation, continues to act in this way. And it is the politicians, specifically in this instance those of the party opposite, who are responsible for perpetuating this fear. At the same time it is only we, the politicians, who have the power to dispel this fear, by legislating for the common good, and by resisting in matters of this kind popular pressures from some members of the laity who are more Catholic than the Bishops.

Until we have the courage to do this, and the ability to lead our whole people to accept the concept of a pluralist society inspired by the Christian ethic, rather than a society reflecting the particular ethos of the religious majority here, so long will this island remain divided. We can choose, by inertia or by action, between a 26-county State predominantly Catholic in its Constitution and laws, or a 32-county pluralist island. It is our choice. But we should not go on fooling ourselves that we can dodge this choice, or that we will be accepted as sincere in our concern to achieve unity if we reject pluralism here. Only people who have no knowledge of Northern Protestants—and, with respect, far too many members of this House, as of our people generally, have kept themselves notably free from any contact with this section of the Irish people—could be under any illusion on this score, and those of us who know these people, and specifically those of us who personally share in that background, have a duty, however unpopular, to perform in asserting this truth, as I do here, in this debate.

I have been speaking of the need to remove obstacles between North and South, obstacles that we have created or maintained, and above all fears for which we remain responsible, even if only because we have not acted to remove them. There are of course, other obstacles than fear. More could be done by the Government, in placing contracts, and by the private sector in its equipment and materials purchasing policy, to forge closer links with the North. If our economic policies are totally orientated towards this part of Ireland—if we give preference to goods made here against goods made in Northern Ireland, we are partitioning our island by so doing. How many of our Government Department or State concerns have positive policies of establishing or strengthening economic ties with the North? We know that the Irish Congress of Trade Unions is an all-Ireland body and that the banking system is organised on an all-Ireland basis, whereas the same has not been possible in the case of industrialists. But could not more be done by industry—even if only to emulate the co-operative relationship that exists in the agricultural sector between farming organisations north and south? I shall not labour the point, beyond congratulating those who are attempting to do something positive in these areas— such as Co-operation North and, at a different level of human contacts, bodies like the Glencree Reconciliation Centre and Corrymeel. They deserve the generous support of all our people.

I have been speaking about steps to be taken to remove fears that stand in the way of a new North-South relationship. I mentioned also that it will not be enough merely to remove these fears, and to establish the genuineness of our concern for a coming-together of the two parts of Ireland by agreement. If a new relationship is to develop with the willing consent of a majority in the North, then such a majority will have to be convinced that this relationship will not merely be free from danger from their point of view, but will in fact be advantageous to them—more advantageous than their present situation. What has been done to put forward this case?

So far the only attempt to argue why Northern Unionists should positively want to be linked to us rather than Britain has been the Fine Gael policy document published in February of last year. There we made the case, objectively, that Northern Ireland would be better off in a confederal arrangement, linked as a State to our State, for purposes of common concern, where our interests and theirs are more closely linked than their interests are with Britain.

We pointed to the commonality of interests between North and South, and the divergence of interest between Ireland as a whole and Britain, in relation to EEC policies, documenting this by reference to the common agricultural policy and regional policy. We argued that Northern Ireland could never have any voice in the Community's institutions, apart from a grossly under-represented Parliamentary delegation of three, contrasting with our 15, so long as it was linked to Britain, and proposed that in a confederal structure Northern Ireland should have an equal voice with that of this part of Ireland, sharing equally the island's representation in the Council of Ministers, the Commission, and the other institutions.

We argued too the long-term benefits of being linked to an expanding economy, such as that of Ireland—when it is not being knocked temporarily off course by Fianna Fáil mismanagement—rather than to a declining Britain. We argued the advantages of a single Irish security authority and security force under a confederal Government, to overcome the existing inhibitions of two separate forces dealing effectively across a frontier with cross Border terrorists.

These are concrete specific arguments. I presented them subsequently at meetings in Belfast, and it was heartening to find myself in dialogue with committed Unionists, not on the emotional national issue that normally arises on these occasions, but rather on such concrete questions as the relative importance of the CAP to Northern Ireland and the Republic, and whether the CAP would survive to provide an enduring bond of common interest between North and South, and vis-à-vis Britain.

I regret that the Taoiseach has not turned his mind to these issues. I regret that when asked twice at the London Press Conference what advantages the North would secure from being linked to us, he was lost for a reply having apparently no brief on this subject, not even a copy of our policy. I should like to cite his answers to these questions.

His first answer was to say that he could: "indicate the advantages best by reference to the disadvantages from which the Northern Ireland economy is at present suffering—industrial and agricultural decline, with a danger of disintegration of the social fabric beyond repair; any long-term lasting solution can deal with these disadvantages—and must do so. Correctly diagnosing the somewhat confused thinking behind this reply, a journalist asked "You are offering the advantage of not having violence any more". The Taoiseach answered that he believed the elimination of violence could only be in the context of a long-term acceptable solution. When asked: "Otherwise violence continues?" he replied: "Regrettably so". Later he was asked "What will you do to persuade the Northern Ireland majority?" and he replied in the vaguest terms that there was: "no one answer—a comprehensive range of things—discussions, meetings, visits". That was all.

This part of the press conference was, frankly, an abysmal performance. If the only advantages an Irish Taoiseach can suggest as being likely to accrue to Northern Ireland from unity are, first, peace—I will come back to that—and, secondly, "a comprehensive range of things—discussions, meetings, visits" he would have done better to have continued his domestic tradition of avoiding press conferences and interviews. For the reference to peace as the single, net, clear advantage of unity is a most dangerous approach which could be read by the IRA as encouraging them to continue their campaign with a view to forcing the North to capitulate in order to secure peace, which of course the North will not do.

I hope we shall never again have to suffer the ignominy of hearing an Irish Taoiseach unable to tell the world press of any concrete and specific advantages that could accrue to Northern Ireland if the two parts of our island came together in peace, advantages which we, for our part, have fully documented. The Taoiseach has emphasised his own roots in Northern Ireland. These roots lie deep, we have been told, 5,000 years deep. But roots that are not watered can wither, and I think it fair to ask by how many visits to Northern Ireland, and how many contacts there with Unionists as well as Nationalists, have these roots been watered, over the past decade, or even quarter of a century? And I do not regard a meeting here with UDA representatives as a very relevant contact, in view of the failure of this group to secure any support from the Northern Ireland electorate when they presented candidates.

The Taoiseach's silence on Northern Ireland for ten long years, excused on the extraordinary grounds of its being outside his responsibilities, has deprived us of any indication of what contacts he has had with Northern opinion over these years. If I am wrong in thinking that they have been minimal, so far as the Unionists are concerned at any rate, then I shall be glad to hear this. But I feel that I may not be wrong in this assumption.

This lack of contact with Northern opinion, especially on the Unionist side, has been a feature of Fianna Fáil as a party—and of course—the Taoiseach is no different from most other members of his party in this respect. This has been one of the great weaknesses of Southern approaches to the Northern problem for half a century. I am glad to have been able during my period as Minister for Foreign Affairs to establish contacts with Unionists as well as to re-establish links with minority leaders which appear to have lapsed for several months in late 1972 and early 1973 because of divisions that existed then between the Taoiseach of the day and his Minister for Foreign Affairs. I met those people on their own home ground, or at Westminster, and I secured the acceptance by Unionists as well as Nationalists of invitations to visit Dublin informally and for social occasions. I regret that these contacts were absent before the National Coalition was established and that they seem to have largely, if not completely, ended with the return of Fianna Fáil.

But in the Taoiseach's case the problem has, perhaps, a further dimension. I know that it is his wish—and I believe it is his sincere wish—to contribute to a resolution of this problem, and I take him at his word in saying that he will give it the highest priority. But in the manner in which he tackles it he may be constrained by his own history to approach the problem not through direct contact with those whom we have to convince in Northern Ireland but rather exclusively through the British Government. His choice of an exclusively British route rather than a joint Northern Ireland/British route towards a solution, despite the evident dangers of producing a negative result by seeming to by-pass the Northern Ireland politicians, may not have been a completely free choice but may have been forced on him by the fact that the events of ten years ago have deprived him of the possibility of being, at this stage in any event, a valid interlocutor with unionism in Northern Ireland, while at the same time not depriving him of the possibility of working with realistic political leaders in London and perhaps even establishing a good relationship with them, as he is reported to have done at his first meeting with the present British Prime Minister.

Needless to say this relationship is important. The Taoiseach was not as fortunate as I have been in having had the chance to get to know the British Prime Minister during her period as Leader of the Opposition, first at an international conference in Turkey and later frequently in London, both at the House of Commons and at our Embassy, where I had the opportunity on a number of occasions both before and since our period in government to brief her on the Irish viewpoint on Northern Ireland, to discuss with her various aspects of European and world affairs, as well as indeed meeting during those years others who are now Ministers in her Cabinet, including the Foreign Secretary. It is right that the Taoiseach should have taken an early opportunity to get to know the Prime Minister.

But during the period of the National Coalition our efforts were directed as much towards Northern Ireland as towards British political leaders. It is here that a gap now exists, which is unfortunate and which could make this Government something of a lame duck administration so far as Northern Ireland is concerned. For at this point what we need above all is to intensify our relationship with the political representatives of the people of Northern Ireland.

I do not of course wish to diminish the potential importance of a fruitful development of the Anglo-Irish relationship. Indeed, in developing the themes of Fine Gael's Northern Ireland policy I have indicated some of the directions in which this development might go. Ideas of a Nordic Union type relationship between Ireland and Britain—which, contrary to one comment I have seen, has no conceivable defence implications, as Sweden, the largest member of the Nordic Union, is of course neutral—or of common citizenship, which I have suggested for consideration, are constructive ones, worth pursuing in their own right, but most especially as helping to provide part of the framework for an eventual resolution of the complex relationships between the two parts of Ireland and between Ireland and Britain.

But the essence of the problem does not lie there. While a new Anglo-Irish relationship in which each country would be closely linked to the other, while of course preserving its own sovereignty, might make some contribution to easing Unionist fears about their relationship with Britain in the context of a close North-South link, this is a somewhat remote and intangible factor at the present time and must be set against the suspicions that will be aroused by anything that looks like an attempt to settle the problem between the sovereign Governments without the participation of the Northern Ireland parties.

The fact that the route to Belfast, which I opened in 1973 and kept open until the Government changed in 1977, has now not merely fallen into disuse but may even be blocked by virtue of the Taoiseach's own background is, I believe, singularly unfortunate at a time like the present, and I fear the distorting effects of this blockage on the whole shape and direction of our policy.

I also fear the effects of certain insensitivity to Northern Unionist opinion which the Taoiseach, despite his Northern roots, has shown in his handling of the matter to date. As I have already indicated, I listened with care and attention to his London press conference, as did hundreds of thousands of others on this island. In so far as he was able to convey that he had established a good working relationship with the British Prime Minister and that our aim is to secure unity by consent, the conference was useful if not—perhaps in the nature of things—very informative. If he had nothing concrete to show for his visit, no assurance about the shape of the impending British initiative and a very negative stance in the House of Commons on the question of our interest in the matter, this was perhaps not surprising, though it may have disappointed many who after the rhetoric of the Ard Fheis expected something more.

But there were other features of this press conference which I found puzzling, and others again which, as I have mentioned, I found disappointing. I was puzzled by the contrast between the direct negative bluntly given to a question as to whether Ireland might as part of a solution rejoin the Commonwealth, membership of which entails no obligations and which is now overwhelmingly a Third World Body with a very able Third World Secretary General—and the very different and much more circumstantial answer given to the question about NATO membership, with all its obligations. In relation to NATO the Taoiseach did not offer the blunt negative given to the Commonwealth suggestion but replied:

Anything of that nature would be a very big change of policy and would be a matter for the Government and the Oireachtas.

If the answers to these two questions needed to be differentiated I should have thought the differentiation might have been rather in the reverse direction in the light of the different obligations entailed in membership of the two organisations. Perhaps the Taoiseach would clarify his thinking on these issues in his reply to the debate.

But what depressed me most about the Taoiseach's remarks at this press conference was his reaction to the idea of any initiative by us in this part of Ireland to create conditions more favourable to a developing North/South relationship. Asked whether there was not an onus on Dublin to take some initiative in relation, for example, to our Constitution, he answered:

I would never accept that there is an onus on Dublin more than anyone else to allay fears and misunderstandings...

No one had suggested that there was any special onus on us, and he went on to add:

But we should avail of any opportunity that offers itself to us to remove any misunderstandings and any fears that are based on misunderstandings and therefore we should not neglect any opportunity to dissipate these misunderstandings.

In further reply, following up an answer to a question about divorce, he said:

I have always said that only Northern Ireland people can tell me what they want, desire, what kind of United Ireland they want. I think it would not be realistic and might indeed be impertinent on my part to predicate what I think the people of Northern Ireland want on any of these social areas. I think that they should discuss with me and tell me what changes they would like to see in our set-up.

And, later:

If the Northerners would sit down and discuss with me the changes they want in our Constitution or in the Constitution of a United Ireland, there would be no difficulty ... everybody would be quite surprised with the lengths to which we would go.

But all this, repeated in other language, in his speech here today, is grossly disingenuous. The Taoiseach knows as well as I do, and as well as everyone else in this House and in the country, that the elected representatives of Northern unionism are not going to come to his "open door" to tell him "what kind of United Ireland they want", or "what changes they want in our Constitution or in the Constitution of a united Ireland". For them to act in this way would be to imply, and be seen by their supporters to imply, that they had some interest either in the internal affairs of our State, thereby legitimating in their terms our interest in the internal affairs of their area or in a united Ireland.

Moreover, to say that he would regard it as impertinent on his part to suggest which changes in our Constitution might help to create a better climate for an evolution of North South relations is equally disingenuous. The Taoiseach knows as well as I do, and as does everyone else in this House and in this country, that Northern Unionists object above all to the wording of Articles 2 and 3, which they interpret as representing a claim by us on their territory. There is not a soul in the Unionist community in Northern Ireland who would regard it as impertinent of the Taoiseach to identify these Articles as a source of tension and to propose their removal. This statement by the Taoiseach can only be described, and must be dismissed, as an attempt to find a clever way out of the reluctance of his Government and his party to face this issue.

This is something of a tragedy because his background, the position he holds, and the kind of support that brought him to that position while inhibiting his relations with the North gives him a freedom of action here in this State in relation to this constitutional issue, that factually his predecessors did not have. He has the opportunity, if he has the statesmanship and the courage to grasp it, of doing what so far no one has been able to do—to get rid of the obstacle to improved North South relations posed by Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution in their present formulation.

Their reformulation need not pose any insuperable obstacle—a re-wording of Article 3, although not one that I would recommend in that precise form at this time, was in fact put forward unanimously by a committee of this House under the Tánaiste's chairmanship 13 years ago, and in the light of all that we have learnt since, a further and better attempt to deal with the problem would now be possible. We in this party are available at any time for consultation on this subject, if the Taoiseach is willing, despite his disappointing attempt to dodge the issue disingenuously in London, to take, and to make use of, the opportunity he enjoys in order to push ahead on this front.

It is tragic that this should be so, and I can only say that I hope sincerely that the Taoiseach will reflect further and consider what a remarkable opportunity he has to act in a statesmanlike manner, through initiating action that could transform the atmosphere of the North-South relationship, both by giving heart to our friends among the moderate Unionists, who accept the inevitability and in many cases indeed the desirability of a united Ireland, and by depriving the extremists of their main argument against us—spurious though we may believe it to be—namely that we claim sovereignty over their territory.

Each party in this House have their own role to play, and there are limits on the roles each of us can play. In Government we could not have initiated successfully a constitutional referendum on Articles 2 and 3 because the Fianna Fáil members of the All-Party Committee made it clear they would not support it, and there was little chance of such a referendum being successful in the face of opposition from Fianna Fáil.

But Fianna Fáil in Government suffer from no such inhibition. They know that if they initiated such a measure they would have our support, and that it could be carried. And the Taoiseach, having come to power in the circumstances he did, with the support he did, is better placed than his predecessor to take such an initiative, for his predecessor, had he attempted to do so, could have sparked off the kind of movement against him which his agreement on cross-Border helicopter flights eventually set off, with the results we see before us. The Taoiseach is the first person in that office since violence began who has the power successfully to take this particular initiative, which could help to break the log-jam and which would show conclusively that we are serious about the concept of unity by consent. I urge him to rise to that occasion, and to earn for himself by doing so a place of honour among those who have striven for Irish unity.

Another point I want to make relates to this mysterious business of the British guarantee. I have tried to understand the Taoiseach's thinking on this matter and I think I am beginning to see how he proposes to re-define this issue. On the face of it, as journalist after journalist pointed out at the press conference, it appears impossible to reconcile the joint acceptance by himself and Mrs. Thatcher of the principle of reunification by consent only, with his criticism of the British guarantee—which is a British statement that Northern Ireland will remain in the United Kingdom so long as this represents the wish of the majority of its people, but that Britain will support a united Ireland if this reflects the wishes of a majority in both parts of Ireland. Why, he was asked repeatedly, should he object to the British Government saying on their own what he himself was willing to say jointly with that Government.

His replies were convoluted in the extreme worthy of certain earlier leaders of his party in this respect, but they bear careful parsing and analysing. First, he said that the guarantee to the majority in the North is a very real stumbling block. He said: "Unless some modification, some parallel situation, in relation to that guarantee is evolved, there won't be the degree of progress we desire".

Later he said: "We believe that while the British Government wish to reassure the majority that nothing will be imposed on them, at the same time we would like to see the British Government holding out, indicating, to the Unionists the advantages, all the many economic and social advantages, that would flow from a unified Ireland—or some new arrangement."

Taking these two passages together, it would seem that what the Taoiseach is seeking is not in fact a withdrawal of the British statement that Northern Ireland will remain in the United Kingdom as long as this represents the wishes of the majority of its people, but the addition to that of a phrase in line with or perhaps a development of, that contained in the relevant British declaration at Sunningdale, which stated British support for a united Ireland achieved in accordance with the wishes of the people of Northern Ireland. Today the Taoiseach told us:

I would like, therefore, to see the British Government modifying the present guarantee by adding a positive element, a new departure that would open the door to progress. I have in mind that the Northern majority would be invited to look at unity as a prospect offering them great advantage.

This is a useful clarification of what is meant by statements referring to the British guarantee as a stumbling block. On this interpretation—and I admit that the exegesis of these texts would test the skill of a biblical scholar—it would appear that there is a common view on this matter as between the Taoiseach and this party. The Taoiseach might wish to consider the possible advantages, however, of speaking in plainer language to the plain people of Northern Ireland and of this State.

In the meantime, whatever criticisms we have of tactical mistakes he has made, of insensitive phrases or obscure circumlocutions, he can be assured that if he can clear aside this verbal debris, arising partly from his lack of experience and assurance in this, for him, unfamiliar, area, and can concentrate on bringing to its full and logical conclusion the concept of unity by consent, he will have the support of this party just as, if he departs from this course, he will have our criticism and if necessary our opposition.

He will be aware of the efforts I have made through visiting London on three occasions within the past two months to further the common cause, by urging on British political leaders a sensitive Northern Ireland initiative, one that will create the conditions for a devolution of government in Northern Ireland on a basis that will ensure participation by representatives of the minority at executive level as and when executive power is transferred, and that will reflect the good wishes that the British public generally, and most British politicians clearly feel towards the concept of Irishmen from North and South, eventually working together in political harmony for the good of their island, and in close and friendly co-operation with the neighbouring island. He can be assured that my efforts, and those of my party will continue to be directed towards these objectives.

In conclusion, I address myself to the British Government. There exists at this moment a possibility of a breakthrough towards a gradual solution of the Northern Ireland problem. Success in this will require Britain to act with skill and firmness in devising a solution to the problem of devolved self-government in Northern Ireland. That solution must ensure against a return to majority rule until the political system in Northern Ireland breaks away from its present ethnically-based structure and develops along more normal lines, so that alternation in government will emerge, as elsewhere, from a majority-based structure. I believe—I hope I am right—that a formula can be found to achieve this result—one in which the different groups might be prepared to participate.

But there is another element to this equation. The balance of the Anglo-Irish relationship has been disturbed since 1973 by the failure of British Governments to match Irish Governments in adherence to the principles solemnly proclaimed at Sunningdale. Successive Irish Governments, including that headed by the present Taoiseach, have reiterated our solemn declaration in the Sunningdale communique that we seek unity only by consent. Successive British Governments have, however, failed to reiterate Britain's parallel solemn declaration—or rather they have reiterated one half of it and have pointedly dropped the other. They have repeated that part of the proposition that is to the effect that Northern Ireland shall remain part of the United Kingdom as long as that reflects the wishes of the people there, but they have remained conspicuously silent on the other half—the declaration of Britain's support for a united Ireland should such a united Ireland be in accordance with the wishes of the people of Northern Ireland.

The time has come to restore the balance. The time has come for Britain to honour its solemn declaration and make it clear once more, as it did in 1920, and again in 1973, that it supports Irish unity by consent. I do not say in the curiously weak, indeed pessimistic, language of the Taoiseach, that "ideally I would like to see the British Government express an interest in the ultimate achievement of unity". I say that to compensate for its prolonged silence on this point it should at this stage proclaim clearly that it would indeed be happy to see the political representatives of the two parts of Ireland reaching agreement as to how Ireland should be governed. Pending such a development, devolved self-government must be installed on a basis that will ensure against any repetition of the monopoly of one-party rule which proved so disastrous not just for the minority, but ultimately for all the people of Northern Ireland, over a period of half a century.

We seek from Britain that she honours her undertakings, and that she give expression to the evident wish of her people, and the great majority of her politicians, that Irish men and women find together as soon as may be a solution to the government of Ireland. May she have the wisdom so to act, for by so acting she could set in motion a process—and it has to be a process; it may, as the Taoiseach said in London, be a long process—through which a solution can eventually be found to the centuries-old conundrum of the ultimate relationships between Britain and Ireland, and between Irishmen of diverse ethnic origins, living in this island, North and South.

There is one thing everybody in this House is agreed upon—there can be no return to majority rule as a method of governing Northern Ireland. Whatever our differences here it is as well that the British Government, Parliament and people get that united message.

A return to simple majority rule in the North is a recipe for disaster, possibly even greater than that which occurred throughout the seventies. That possibility must be prevented and its prevention must be the first responsibility of the Taoiseach and the Government in dealing with the North. This must be the immediate short-term goal which takes precedence over all the other objectives of the Government's Northern policy. We are united on this. There must be no return to the Stormont regime which ruled the North for half a century with such disastrous results.

I have thought it my duty to begin my contribution to this debate by stressing what I believe is the most immediate and necessary step, that of preventing a return to Stormont. Were that to happen it could plunge this island into chaos and cause the most serious rupture for 60 years in Anglo-Irish relations. I believe we all recognise that possibility. I believe we are united, too, in our desire to achieve the unity of the Irish people and that the means to achieve it must be by consent, reconciliation and mutual respect. The third point of agreement which I believe unites us in this debate is our conviction that an Irish dimension to this problem exists in that we have views and advice, to put it at its minimum, which must be listened to and taken into account by the British Government when formulating plans for the North in the future.

There are disagreements between us, disagreements of analysis and policy, but it is essential to place these disagreements within the context of what unites us and that is why I have outlined the three basic principles on which we are united.

As we conduct this debate we still do not know the details of the British Government's proposals for restoring a measure of self-government to Northern Ireland, which was the task set before the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Mr. Atkins. Indications are that there is a real prospect that those proposals will come perilously close to the old Stormont set-up. If we are to give credence to the predictions of the British media on the contents of the proposals it would seem that an up-dated version of Stormont is a possibility more real than at any time since Mrs. Thatcher's predecessor prorogued that infamous institution.

This is justifiable cause for the most grave concern not only for the future of the North but also for the future of this island and for Anglo-Irish relations as a whole. We can envisage what would happen if it is attempted. No matter how strong may be Mrs. Thatcher's protests that the future of the North is a matter for her Government alone, the political reality remains what it always was.

These two parts of the island cannot be artificially separated and their influence on each other and interaction with each other cannot be written off and dismissed. For too long, this interaction has had negative dimensions only. There is no reason why these could not be positive. We must be listened to now if there is to be any meaningful development in the direction of peace because the problem is not one which affects one government only and it alone.

If there is "a unique relationship" between the Irish and British peoples, as the joint communiqué expressed it, it exists not just because of a long history or an accident of geography but more importantly because there are two contending traditions on this island and they confront each other within Northern Ireland. They co-exist here now, and the tension between them threatens the stability and security of all the people of these islands.

That is why any evaluation of this debate by the British Government and media must begin with a clear and unequivocal conclusion that there was complete unity on this point. The future Government of Northern Ireland cannot be based on simple majority rule. If in British eyes we are to accept coresponsibility for maintaining security on this island, then we have a corresponding right to pronounce on the conditions which lead to insecurity. Since all our experience dictates that a Stormont-type regime is a recipe for heightened tensions, then our views should be respected and any plans for going in that direction should be abandoned by the British Government.

Replying to a question in the House of Commons on the 20th of this month Mrs. Thatcher said that the constitutional affairs of Northern Ireland were a matter for the people of Northern Ireland, her Government, the British Parliament and no one else. That is a fundamental departure from the position taken up in the seventies by previous Labour and Conservative Governments who acknowledged not just a right but indeed a necessity for the Irish Government to be involved in determining and underwriting the institutions of Government in Northern Ireland. So in that respect the recent Prime Ministerial meeting was a set-back.

That, after all, was the working assumption on which the Sunningdale Conference was held and the agreement negotiated by Mr. Heath and accepted by Mr. Wilson. It is the principle which was automatically enshrined in many of the communiqués issued after meetings between the Taoiseach and Prime Minister of the day throughout the seventies. For example, it is clearly stated in the communiqués of the 11 September 1974 after a meeting between Deputy Cosgrave and Mr. Wilson and again after their meeting on 5 March 1976.

The same sentiments were expressed after Deputy Lynch's meeting with Mr. Callaghan on 28 September 1977.

The Taoiseach and Prime Minister were united in re-affirming their commitment in the immediate future to achieving the earliest possible restoration of peace and political stability in Northern Ireland.

The communique went on to express the Taoiseach's welcome of the British Government's policy:

To work towards a devolved system of Government in which all sections of the community could participate on a fair basis and in which the rights of all citizens are fully safeguarded.

It is with the advent of Mrs. Thatcher that we find the first omission in a joint communique of any reference to a united position on the North's future by the two Governments, although to be fair to Deputy Lynch after his meeting with Mrs. Thatcher on 5 September 1979 the Communique makes reference to his stated need for a form of power sharing.

However, the joint communique issued by the present Taoiseach and Mrs. Thatcher omits for the first time any reference to a common position on the form of future government for the North and any record of the Taoiseach's position that a future devolved Government in the North must be based on both communities.

There have been questions as to what was the difference between the meeting last week and previous meetings at Prime Ministerial level. The British Prime Minister refused to acknowledge the mutual interest of the two Governments in the future of the North and the Taoiseach is not recorded as having stated any position at all on the matter. Both are profound and disturbing facts.

As I said at the outset, any return to a Stormont type of regime would be a disaster; yet the wording of the joint communique does not rule it out. The consequences of that failure could be really disastrous. However, I presume the main burden of the Taoiseach's opening remarks was to the effect that there could be no return to Stormont. I do not know if it was. I can only presume, and hope that it was because any Taoiseach who was so blinkered by his own doctrinaire approach to the North that he ignored this immediate, practical policy requirement would be guilty of a most serious misjudgment, to put it at its very mildest. If he did put that case then we can only further presume that Mrs. Thatcher was persuaded by its logic and relevance. We do not know from the joint communique.

If events prove that no such case was put and the Taoiseach concentrated instead on long term aspirations to the exclusion of dealing with short term realities then he must bear some measure of responsibility for what happens should the British Government's proposals be comprised of a majority based form of Government for the North. If events, however, prove that the Taoiseach put this case but was rejected by Mrs. Thatcher then she will be responsible, and responsible alone, for endangering the people of all this island and for rupturing the whole range of Anglo-Irish relations.

I do not want to be forced to contemplate such an eventuality. I can only presume again that intelligence governed both the Taoiseach's presentation of his case and the British Prime Minister's response to it. If that is so then the immediate danger will not arise. If it does arise then let this House be assured that the Labour Party will not hesitate to identify those who are responsible for it and to ensure they carry that responsibility in public.

There were temptations in the London talks which had to be avoided if any genuine lasting contribution was to be made to peace and reconciliation. The first, as I have said, was that the British Government would continue with its insistence that the North was a purely internal British matter and its belief that a return to a Stormont type administration was the solution to the current problems.

I have made my party's position clear on this matter and indicated that I presume, in the absence of any knowledge to the contrary, that the Taoiseach disposed of this theoretical alternative and had it removed from the agenda of any further British consideration.

There was another temptation which could only lead to continued deadlock and that was the predisposition of the Taoiseach to dismiss any system of shared Government in the North as unworkable and unacceptable. I trust that this was a temptation he avoided. I do not know whether this was the case from the communique, which I have already said was silent for the first time on a Taoiseach's commitment to devolved Government in the North as a prerequisite to peace and reconciliation.

We do not know in any detail what Government policy on Northern Ireland is. We are aware of broadly stated goals and sweeping generalisations which are carefully designed to appeal to the hysteria of a packed Ard-Fheis, but we do not have a step by step analysis which outlines acceptable and workable mechanisms for dealing with the foreseeable future.

In his Ard-Fheis address, to which I was referred as the basis of his Northern policy in reply to a recent Dáil question, the Taoiseach devoted two-and-a-quarter pages on Northern Ireland out of a total of 18 pages. He also devoted two-and-a-quarter pages to what he regarded as the greatness of the Fianna Fáil Party.

Apart from saying that the need for a solution was becoming increasingly urgent and that violence would never bring a solution, with which I naturally agree, the Taoiseach made only two substantive points and they were contained in one paragraph. The first was that if the Constitutional Conference helped to secure civil rights, equality and impartial security, then so much the better. The second was that the time had come for the two sovereign Governments to find a formula and to lift the situation on to a new plane which could bring permanent peace and stability to the peoples of these islands.

But at his press conference the Taoiseach ruled out devolved government irrespective of its structure if it did not include a formalised Irish dimension. The only new aspect that we got this morning was on page 12 of the Taoiseach's speech where he said: "I have been criticised on the basis that I dismissed out of hand any possible solution that might emerge from that conference. That criticism is not valid". We will get back to that.

It is here that disagreement begins between the Labour Party and the Government. If we are to interpret the statement "no settlement can be contemplated now which merely sows the seeds of future discord" in the way the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis interpreted it, it means that this Government's policy is written by the same hand that drafted Deputy Síle de Valera's speech last year in Fermoy and which was so forcibly repudiated by Deputy Jack Lynch as Taoiseach.

Replying to Deputy Síle de Valera on 10 September 1979, Deputy Lynch said:

As a priority we want to see peace and reconciliation between the communities in the North. We support the setting up of devolved Government and institutions to which both communities can give their support and consent.

The "we" in that statement included both the Fianna Fáil Party and the Government.

Interviewed on 3 September 1979, immediately prior to his meeting with Mrs. Thatcher Deputy Lynch was equally explicit on the policy of his Government in respect of power-sharing even without an institutionalised Irish dimension.

Deputy Lynch said:

I would not insist at this stage on the establishment of an All-Ireland Council if we got an administration, call it power sharing whatever you like, power sharing is a phrase not well received by some Unionists, provided that it is on a full and equal basis and no question of second-hand citizenship for the minority.

I endorsed these sentiments publicly at that time because they corresponded with reality. The Labour Party shares the same long-term goal for this country as the other two parties in this House and they share the same principle that the means to achieve unity must be democratic and based on consent. The differences arise not about goals or principles but about the practical method of achieving the goals and applying the principles. Specifically, we believe that the immediate requirement for the North is a devolved form of government involving both communities as of right.

Just like Mr. Lynch last September, we would not insist at this stage on an instutionalised Irish dimension. We believe that such a formalised Irish dimension is as unacceptable to the Protestant community as a return to majority rule would be to the Catholic community.

These are realities and these are the conclusions with which I returned from my recent visit to Belfast where my discussions went right across both the political and religious divide. The Protestant Community will not accept a formalised Irish dimension and to insist on it now is to prevent any progress. This might not be a view we like but it is a reality we must face, and this party has faced that reality.

Analysing the present Taoiseach's presidential address to the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis, the wording of the joint communique with Mrs. Thatcher and his press conference after the meeting, it is safe to assume that Deputy Lynch's policy of dealing with immediate practical problems has been abandoned. It has been replaced by an entirely new policy which jumps directly from the position we are in now to negotiations for a united Ireland without any intermediate stages.

It means that Fianna Fáil, under Deputy Haughey, are opposed to power sharing and, according to his press conference, would opt for a continuance of direct rule in preference to any devolved government without an institutionalised Irish dimension. We were told by the present Taoiseach in the House to take that presidential Ard-Fheis address as Government policy. If we do, we are left with a policy equally unrealistic as that attributed to Mrs. Thatcher. Where Mrs. Thatcher would ignore the aspirations of one tradition, Deputy Haughey would ignore the other; and where she would seek to impose her will on one community, Deputy Haughey would impose his on the other. They are united apparently in their disregard for the complexities—and the dangers—of the situation in the North.

The present Taoiseach's claim that only the two sovereign Governments could work together to find a permanent solution carried with it the dangerous implication that there was no role for a power-sharing administration, if one is established, in working towards a solution. The Taoiseach stated, again in his Ard-Fheis presidential address, that no settlement could be contemplated which would merely sow the seeds of future discord. The Taoiseach has not been explicit in revealing to the Dáil if that means he is opposed to power sharing. The Taoiseach has an obligation to be explicit and unequivocal on this vital matter.

If power sharing is offered without any institutionalised Irish dimension at this time will the Taoiseach accept it? This question is of such seriousness that it is central to the whole issue of Fianna Fáil approach and policy.

The Taoiseach cannot have it both ways. In fact, immediately after his election as leader of the Fianna Fáil Party the Taoiseach stated that his policy on the North was that laid down in the Fianna Fáil policy document of 29 October 1975. That calls on the British Government:

to declare Britain's commitment to implement an ordered withdrawal from her involvement in the six counties of Northern Ireland.

Is that still the first priority of Deputy Haughey as Taoiseach? Did the Taoiseach make such a demand on Mrs. Thatcher and, if so, what was the response? We do not know at this point of time but in the meanwhile Mrs. Thatcher, the British Prime Minister, apparently is better informed of our Government's policies than this House or our people are, which is a disgraceful and ludicrous situation.

Judging from the content and thrust of the Taoiseach's London press conference it would be logical to deduce that the Taoiseach did stick to the policy of seeking immediate moves for unity, although in the joint communique there is a profoundly significant passage where he agreed with Mrs. Thatcher:

that any change in the constitutional status of Northern Ireland would only come about with the consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland.

This is of profound significance. It contradicts the 1975 Fianna Fáil policy statement and is a further contradiction that needs clarification and explanation, so that the Dáil can see clearly what are the basic points of current Government policy.

As a further example of these contradictions the Taoiseach concentrated at his press conference on his preparedness to negotiate an unspecified form of unity with the North. "Let them tell me what they want", he said. They would be agreeably surprised at how flexible and imaginative we can be". So would most people here. But whether the Taoiseach would be either flexible or imaginative is not the point, as he has already ruled out all but the two sovereign Governments from working out the formula for permanent peace. This contradicts the Taoiseach's London invitation to the North to tell him what they want.

From my recent visit to Northern Ireland, which involved discussions with both communities, I can testify that Deputy Haughey's invitation has no chance of being accepted by any politician in the Northern camp. It is a barren formula with no relevance whatever to producing reconciliation, which alone can give the prospect of future progress. The one political formula that can commence that process is power sharing, whatever it may be called. If it is on offer we in this part of the island should support it.

That is the area of disagreement between the Labour Party and Fianna Fáil on Northern Ireland. It is a profound disagreement with direct consequences on the type of proposals one puts forward as a solution and for the type of proposals one would be prepared to support.

The Taoiseach's style of creating the maximum amount of shadow and trying to present it as substance was nowhere more evident than at his press conference in London. He has a unique genius for presenting shadow as substance. He tried to maximise that so as to insinuate that there was some substance to the talks but what was achieved? The only firm proposal was the granting of the vote to citizens of the UK resident in this country, and an announcement that there would be regular meetings at Heads of Government level. The first of these was hardly earth-shattering, though we welcomed it, and the second is no more than a continuance of meetings that have been held at this level.

After all, Mr. Cosgrave met Mrs. Thatcher's predecessor, Mr. Heath, four times in one year and I doubt if there could be any meaningful improvement on that in terms of political co-operation.

As I said, we will wait for time to distinguish between the shadow and the substance but now I want to turn to a further aspect of the substance of this problem and it relates to the economics of this island and its two parts.

If we are serious about searching for long-term solutions we must be prepared to engage in serious dialogue about the common economic problems we face. Almost five million people live in this island on the periphery of the Continent and of the European Economic Community. We share many of the inherent problems of outlying and marginal regions within any large free market economy. In both the north and south, unemployment rates are unacceptably high; inflation is soaring over the 20 per cent level with a dramatic impact on living standards; growth rates are falling and interest rates are at a destructively high point, leading to bankruptcy for many enterprises.

It is not possible to appreciate the importance of these basic economic considerations unless we see that the economic conditions have social consequences for the whole population. In this island there are unsolved, and too often even untackled, social problems and needs which affect hundreds of thousands of Irish men and women. Hardcore poverty is a continuing scandal on both sides of the Border and it continues at levels almost unparalleled in Europe.

The economic situation in the Republic is extremely serious at the present time, as anyone reading the recent ESRI commentary will realise. With unemployment certain to exceed 100,000 before the end of the year, price increases soaring to over 20 per cent, disposable incomes falling well behind the inflation rate and growth down to little over 1 per cent, the picture is grim. There is absolutely no cause for optimism about the economic future of the Republic. Investment this year will fall by 6 per cent, representing a terrible threat to employment.

In Northern Ireland the picture is equally grim. Unemployment is rising sharply—almost 70,000 are out of work there today—and far outstrips the generally unfavourable situation in the UK as a whole. The impact of the disastrous and totally misguided policies of the Tory Government on the economy in Northern Ireland is seen to be tragic and long-lasting. In addition the years of strife have greatly upset the pattern of economic and social development there and it is increasingly difficult to maintain the momentum of industrial and commercial growth.

Overall, the economic position in the entire island is bad. By the end of this year, it is likely that the total number of people out of work in the island as a whole will almost reach 200,000. Very many of these are young people looking in frustration for their first jobs and many more of them are long-term unemployed who can only feel a sense of total frustration with the present economic system. Present policies are not helping. Mrs. Thatcher's savage cut-backs in education, social services and public sector activity are matched here by the Taoiseach's own brand of so-called realism which threatens our schools, hospitals and housing programmes, along with our job prospects.

In both the north and south, as I have said, we share acute social problems. Poverty in the Republic is being studied systematically by the combat poverty teams. Their latest report, published last week, underlines the scale and the nature of the problem. Their urban projects show that hundreds of thousands of men, women and children are existing on the inadequate means-tested payments made under the social assistance schemes.

Poverty in the north is no less significant. Recent research shows that about 30 per cent of the families in Northern Ireland have incomes below the level of basic needs and that these families have almost 40 per cent of the children of the province. The three main causes of family poverty in the North are low wages, single parenthood and unemployment.

A survey carried out within the EEC Poverty Programme comments that the Shankill and Falls wards of Belfast City are typical areas of inner-city need. All but 10 per cent of the families in both areas suffer some aspect of social need and 70 per cent of those in the Falls and almost 50 per cent of those in Shankill were affected by more than one symptom of deep deprivation.

Northern Ireland's economic problems have been very starkly outlined in last year's document from the Northern Ireland Central Economic Service which dealt with the regional imbalance in economic and social development between the province and the rest of the United Kingdom. That imbalance is made evident by the fact that unemployment in Northern Ireland is higher than in any other standard region, that average weekly earnings and labour force activity rates are on the whole lower and that net emigration is higher. The prevalence of low incomes and dependence on supplementary benefit and family income supplement are substantially higher in Northern Ireland than in other UK regions.

Furthermore the same report points out that the Northern Ireland economy is particularly vulnerable in that it is heavily dependent on volatile international markets, on public expenditure on which there are severe pressures and constraints in the UK, on EEC agricultural policy which may be less beneficial to Northern Ireland than to Britain and on imported fuel. Northern Ireland is also faced with continuing high unemployment and lagging standards of living arising in the main from consequences of geographical remoteness, dependence on declining industries and the limited job market and low population density outside the greater Belfast area.

These are indicators of a regional problem which is shared here in the Republic. In their 1977 paper on the guidelines for Community regional policy, the Commission concentrated in particular on the needs of what they refer to as a number of regions which, despite sustained efforts, still lag well behind and which will require massive Community aid for a long time to come. This problem was seen to concern southern Italy, Greenland, the French overseas departments and the whole island of Ireland.

We all know only too well that the European Community have failed, and are continuing to fail, in respect of adequate regional policy. A major battle lies ahead to bring about change in this area and we believe that the emergence of a genuine, locally-controlled, development programme within Northern Ireland would give the whole process of regional policy debate in the Community a new and urgent dimension.

These facts are central to our concern here today. I believe that it is the first duty of political leaders to have a deep commitment to the welfare of the ordinary men and women in society. That must come before either Republican rhetoric or Unionist cant. Faced with the facts of economic underdevelopment, the present recession and widespread poverty, there must be, in the name of the men, women and children of this island, a concentrated and sincere effort to work together for immediate solutions to real needs. In the northern context that, of necessity, means an internal political arrangement and nothing we say or do in this House should impede the possibility of such an arrangement in any way.

I would like here to suggest, only perhaps in outline, a four-point programme of action which could be taken within the ambit of an internal settlement in Northern Ireland and a restrained and sensible policy approach here in the South. First, the introduction of an economic and social development programme for Northern Ireland, geared to bridging the gap between the province and the rest of the United Kingdom. Second, the creation of a genuine regional development plan in the Republic, with particular emphasis on the needs of the Connacht-Ulster regions and the border counties. Third, the establishment of a common energy programme for the whole island, with appropriate grid arrangements. Fourth, the mounting of a joint Irish-United Kingdom political initiative within the Community, aimed at obtaining a real breakthrough on regional policy and regional fund financing.

I believe that we cannot seriously face up to the Northern Ireland problem unless we think long and hard about these economic and social issues. It is in the solution of problems such as these that people can be brought together. I feel that we should all examine our consciences about the long history of neglect of deepseated problems in our economic and social structures, many of which have served to provide the very fertile ground for evil men and for their evil ideas.

Now, perhaps, with a mixture of restraint and mutual willingness to give a little in either direction, the search for solutions to these problems could be turned into the foundation of peace and future prosperity for all the people on this island.

Deputy O'Hanlon is the next speaker and I understand by arrangement and agreement that the two Deputies will share this half-hour.

On a point of order——

Deputy Blaney will be called later in the day. I want to get both sides in first. In a debate of this nature, there is room for only one independent Deputy.

Only one.

First of all, I would like to congratulate the Taoiseach on the outcome of the London talks. In his Ard Fheis speech, the Taoiseach indicated that in relation to Northern Ireland the time had come for the two Governments to work together to find a formula and to lift the situation on to a new plane. He further indicated that the Government here saw Northern Ireland as the major national issue and its peaceful solution as our first political priority. I believe that the London discussions represent a major advance along the road to achieving the objectives I have just mentioned.

While we have witnessed suffering and death over the last 12 years, some people may be pessimistic, but I believe that a solution can be found and that some of us here present will see a united Ireland in our lifetime. While I do not want to go back over 300 years of history, I believe it is important to look back half a century. Often from the history of the past comes the inspiration for the future.

Ireland was one nation all through history until 1921 and it should be remembered that the vast majority of the people of the Twenty-six Counties have never accepted partition as permanent; neither did some prominent members of the British Establishment or of the Unionist Party. For example, King George V at the opening of the Belfast Parliament in 1921 before partition was set up said:

We welcome the day when the Irish people, North and South, would come together in the common love of Ireland upon a foundation of mutual justice and respect.

Lord Craigavon said:

On this island we cannot live always separated from each other. We are too small to be apart or for the border to be there for all time.

On two occasions this century, a large body of Unionists were prepared to indulge in force to maintain the link with Britain. I refer to 1912 when Home Rule was advocated and to 1974 when the Ulster Unionist workers' strike took place. However, in more recent times some Unionists have expressed an interest in breaking the union with Britain and forming an independent Ulster. This represents a moving away by the Unionists from their long-cherished allegiance and demonstrates a disenchantment with the Westminster Government and its attitude to the North in recent years.

Fianna Fáil, since its foundation in 1926, have always been committed to a policy of reunification by peaceful means. I cite the following examples:

Eamonn de Valera: We do not contemplate the use of force. Partition is the result of an action by the British Government and Britain should undo it.

Seán Lemass: Our goal is the reunification of Ireland by agreement.

Jack Lynch: We have made it clear that the unification we seek is one obtained by agreement.

As I indicated at the outset, the Taoiseach is committed, as a first priority, to working for a united Ireland by peaceful means. At Sunningdale, the then British Prime Minister, Edward Heath, clearly recognised the Irish dimension to the question of a settlement of the situation in Northern Ireland.

Every reasonable and clear-thinking person must accept that there is no way we can force a million Unionists, by bomb or bullet, into a United Ireland. We must condemn the use of violence to achieve that end. While the present day IRA claim to be the legitimate heirs of the men of the period 1916-1921, they must, in their hearts, realise that the situation is totally different today. In the period of the "troubles" in Ireland, there was no other way of highlighting the injustice of this country being held in subjection against the wishes of the vast majority of the people and being ruled from abroad by a Parliament not elected by the Irish people. At the present time in this part of Ireland we have a sovereign Government duly elected solely by the Irish people, a Government who are concerned and committed to work for the benefit of all the people of Ireland and for reunification by peaceful means. The concept of reunification is an ideal, in my opinion, that can be achieved in our lifetime. Seán Lemass, in his Oxford address in 1959 said:

Nothing is ever settled until it is settled right.

and we must strive unremittingly towards this settlement.

The only long-term solution is a thrity-two county democratic republic. In the meantime, some form of political institution which will guarantee civil rights and equality for all the people in the Six Counties is necessary. In order to achieve that ideal, there are certain fundamental requirements. One of these is that under no circumstances can we return to the old Stormont system. Neither can we continue to operate under a system of direct rule in which the British Army exercise a greatly excessive influence. In this context, I would deplore the harrassment of members of the minority by the British Army in certain parts of the Six Counties, particularly the harrassment of the young people.

In my opinion, the reluctance of the Northern Ireland Protestant to join with his Catholic fellow countryman in an all-Ireland State arises primarily from fear and distrust that in such a State he would be at a disadvantage. While these fears are groundless we must recognise that they are genuinely held and that it would be necessary in a United Ireland to give them a constitutional guarantee and amend some of our existing laws. All these matters would be reasonably and sympathetically negotiable in full and free discussions among Irishmen, once the British Government had given the commitment to disengage from Irish affairs.

Eamonn de Valera and, later, Seán Lemass proposed a regional parliament under which the Northern Ireland Government would function, while the power assumed by Westminster at the present time would be transferred to an all-Ireland parliament. There is no good reason why this type of solution would not be acceptable to Britain, who now maintain the Six Counties at the annual expenditure of £1,000 million of the taxpayers' money. She should now admit that partition has failed and face up to her responsibility. I believe that Britain should actively encourage the eventual reunification of Ireland by agreement, and then promote the phased and orderly withdrawal from her involvement in the Six Counties of Northern Ireland. Then Irish people of both cultures could sit down and talk about how all the people of this island could live in peace and harmony in the future.

What would the ideal of an united Ireland imply for the Unionists? As I have said already, the Unionists would have to accept that within the Six County area itself there could be no return to the type of majority rule which existed in Stormont since 1921. Second, there is the problem of identity. At the present time, the Unionist identifies himself primarily as British and Protestant. In the context of a United Ireland one would hope to see him progressively recognising the primacy of his identity as an Irishman, maintaining his own culture and tradition. While in the past it was often suggested that the economic gap between the two parts of Ireland would be a barrier to unity, in the past 15 years the gap has narrowed considerably.

What can we do at the present time to see the ideal achieved? I believe there are a number of things we can do. First, Britain has the responsibility and the power to bring about a durable settlement. We can continue to remind her Government of their obligation and use all legitimate means to press them to fulfil their obligation along the lines proposed by successive Fianna Fáil Governments. Second, we can continue to work for the common good in economic and cross-Border projects. There are many cross-Border committees doing this at present. Third, we must continue to highlight the problem and encourage our many friends around the world to use their influence to bring about a political settlement. Fourth, we can continue to develop the economy of this part of Ireland to make it more attractive to the people of the Six Counties. Fifth, we can extend personal and social cross-Border contacts so as to get to know and understand our Unionist fellow-Irishmen and so that increasing knowledge of our attitude will demonstrate to them that in general their fears are groundless and our common interests many and close.

I believe that one of the big barriers to any progress at present is the existence of the British guarantee to Unionists. We re-emphasise that what we want is unity by agreement and in peace and that we have no wish to dominate or coerce. However, there is no incentive to Unionists to enter into genuine and constructive dialogue while the guarantee exists. I believe therefore that Britain should declare her interest in encouraging the unity of Ireland by agreement and in peace and thus open the way towards a lasting solution. I believe that, if we got the declaration we seek, Ulster Unionists would respond in a positive manner and would come to realise that their real interests lie in accommodation with their fellow Irishmen in the South under agreed negotiated structures.

Before concluding there is one specific aspect of the Northern situation to which I wish to refer, and that is the allegation that we in the South are somewhat ambivalent about security, that the South is a haven for criminals and so on. These allegations are conveyed mainly by Northern Ireland politicians to the British through news media and in the House of Commons. I think we should try to nail this lie once and for all. We should certainly put it clearly on the record of this House that there is a deliberate attempt by some persons to foster misunderstanding and misrepresent our position.

This situation as far as we are concerned is quite clear and unambiguous. This country is no haven for those involved in crime, whether in pursuit of political ends or otherwise. While it is true that the Border is a factor in the violence in Northern Ireland, the extent of its role is often greatly exaggerated and myths and misrepresentations are often spread for reasons that have nothing to do with security. The vast bulk of the violence occurs deep inside the North and mainly around Belfast. The fact is that our presence around the Border is every bit as intense as that of the British Army and the RUC. I think it would be true to say that we have taken as strong a stand as any other country in Europe against those who would use crime for political ends. A cursory glance at the judicial and security institution of this state will fully support what I am saying and the Government here will continue to use the full forces of the law against those perpetrating acts of violence for political ends.

However, a solution cannot be found through security measures alone. Successive Unionist administrations in their constitution and history contained within themselves the elements of instability and unacceptability. Until these aspects are eliminated, permanent peace in the North is just not on. In saying this one can be branded as giving aid and succour to the violent men, but it is simply recognising the reality of the situation.

We do not know at this stage what is contained in any forthcoming British initiative in the North. But what we do know is that it is incumbent on the British Government to seek to involve and gain the support of the Irish Government for whatever is proposed. Otherwise the exercise is doomed to failure. For our part we have already made clear what we will not support. We certainly will not support anything on the lines of the old Stormont and, while we would wish to see the reunification of our country, the only interim solution that will work must be acceptable to the two communities in the Six Counties and agreed by the British and Irish Governments.

We hope that the British have learned something forom the events of the last 12 harrowing years and that realistic and acceptable proposals will be presented. They have got it wrong so many times in the past—we hope they will get it right this time.

I am glad of this opportunity to speak on this motion. Like other Members I am very pleased that the Taoiseach had an opportunity recently to impress on the British Prime Minister the extreme urgency of a political initiative on the North by the British Government. It appears that the note of urgency got through to the degree that regular meetings between the two leaders will take place. I would like to add my voice to those who spelled out the extreme urgency of getting the people in the North back to the negotiating table, not just talking about their problems but helping to solve them.

Since the fall of the Northern Executive the moderates on both sides have waited very patiently for a political move which would give them some ray of hope. If the initiative when it comes does not hold out a real opportunity for true participation by both sectors of the community, then failure is certain. Failure would not simply mean that there is no move forward; it would mean that the men of violence of both sides would get a measure of support they never dreamed of. I have no doubt the situation cannot bear another failure and I hope that in this case the British initiative will be strong enough to ensure that there will not be another failure.

A realistic political initiative in the North is essential. Of that there is no doubt. I know there is full acceptance in this House for such an initiative. I strongly advise anybody speaking on Northern affairs to avoid the pitfall of playing down our national aspirations. There seems to be a view that if one does not talk about unity it will help appease the Northern Loyalists. All Fianna Fáil leaders have stated the party's aim on national unity and our present leader restated that aim on a number of occasions since his election. That clear statement is fully in keeping with putting all our cards on the table to our fellow countrymen in the North.

The coming together of both traditions can only be on the basis of frank discussion. Therefore, clear and consistent stands on this issue are essential. An observer of the Northern scene could be excused if he felt the present picture looked black, given the widely different views of the two main groups in the North. However, while accepting the gravity of the present position, some encouraging things are evident. Quite a number of young Protestants are questioning the present order and are seeking alternative structures. While they are far from working for unity, the fact is that they have the courage to challenge the established order and to seek some form of common ground. At various times any mention of interim measures to resolve the Northern problem has come under attack from some little group with very little grasp of the real problem or its complexities. The hard fact is that one million people in the North do not want unity at this time. If we accept peaceful means as the only solution then our job must be to convince those people of the error of their stance. We could court them by standing aloof from them and by refusing any working arrangements, but will the measure of trust necessary to form a united people ever be generated by that attitude? If one accepts that unity can only be achieved by peaceful means then one is automatically committed to a gradual and phased process.

Those of us who have been working for many years promoting cross-Border effort have placed great importance on the contribution the EEC would make to this type of development, and our hopes would seem to have been well founded as the EEC have shown a particular interest. It is, therefore, particularly sad that the British Prime Minister should have chosen to withhold her approval to necessary funding as a lever in her battle with the Community over budget payments. Without attempting to pass judgment on the merit of Britain's budget payments claim, it is most unfortunate that this much needed development should be the innocent victim. The Border area desperately needs this type of joint effort as a counter to all the bitter and divisive events of recent years which are still continuing. Very much can be done to promote understanding by more cross-border projects. This is a field in which progress is, of necessity, slow and much of the good effort must go unpublicised; yet there can be no doubt of its beneficial effect, not alone in improving the material well-being of both sides but also in helping to overcome old animosities.

I am proud to have been involved in such cross-Border promotions over the years, and while my experience has left me with no illusions with regard to the obstacles to be overcome, I have at the same time been very heartened by the considerable effort made by those taking part on the Northern side and by the very considerable political risks taken by many on the unionist side. It has left me in no doubt that if and when we reach unity by consent in this island politics will be much the richer by the Ulster contribution. In that area there is great potential for the building of bridges between the two communities and the economic benefits would be immense.

Deputy FitzGerald spoke at length about his visits to Northern Ireland. Certainly I welcome such visits and I believe there is not sufficient movement between here and Northern Ireland at political or any other level. I would ask the Deputy what his colleagues in government did during their term of office? They had Ministers who represented constituencies adjoining the Border. What contact had they established in cross-Border developments? I would ask him to ensure that those under his leadership would become deeply involved in this area. More contact at all levels is necessary, and it would be a useful exercise for politicians to travel through Northern Ireland and especially to Belfast. I had occasion to be in that city about a month ago and used some spare time to walk down the Lisburn road. I saw the Russell Court Hotel surrounded by a barbed wire entanglement and looking like a battlefield, and many disused houses. Last Sunday I travelled through Crossmaglen on the way home from a football match in Newry and saw the problems of the people living in these areas. How long can people continue to live under such conditions and in such circumstances?

I wish to pay tribute to the members of the Garda and the Army for the service they have given in regard to security in Border regions. Deputy O'Hanlon mentioned the criticism which has been made that our security forces were not playing their part, and I wish completely to refute this allegation. Many gardaí have had to leave their families for periods up to 12 months in order to take up Border duties and they have made a wonderful contribution, as have the men of the Army. This country has spent a large slice of its finances in ensuring that we have the best possible security measures. I pay tribute to all those involved.

I wish the Taoiseach well in his endeavours. We have the will and I hope we will be able to generate the atmosphere in Northern Ireland to ensure a termination of the violence.

I must admit straight away what I have to say today will not be as statesmanlike as what has been said by other Deputies. I feel I have to say something about the more domestic and parochial political aspects of the situation which ultimately produced this debate, and the domestic genesis of the Fianna Fáil Government's present stance in regard to Northern Ireland and associated questions. Anyone who pretends that this can be divorced from recent developments in their own party has not his feet on the ground.

Its most recent history—the last chapter of it—began in the autumn when Deputy Síle de Valera, who despite the mystique which surrounds her name and which she is willing to have attributed to herself at one remove very seldom attends this House and virtually never gives us the benefit of her views on any question except this one, went to Fermoy and made a speech. I would have said that as a young girl she should be sporting in some flowery political meadow, like conservation or children's rights, but she has chosen instead to inhabit the dripping vaults of old-cod republicanism. She made a speech, the timing of which I cannot believe was planned entirely unassisted. In that speech she advanced a point of view in regard to Irish unity and Irish destiny which she associated very strongly with her grandfather.

Since nobody on this side of the House brought her grandfather into the argument, since he was gratuitously made part of recent developments by herself, I feel I am entitled, without disrespect to his memory, to say that if one man more than another did his best—perhaps, without knowing it—to dig deeper the ditches which separate the two peoples of this country, it was that Deputy's grandfather. If there was any possible way of doing it, he would find it. It was with him as Taoiseach that the Criminal Law (Amendment) Bill was passed containing a section which the House has heard so much about. It was he who drafted, introduced and got the people to pass the Constitution which contains an assertion of the right of this Parliament to rule the Six Counties, which contained, until the people removed it in 1972, an assertion of the primacy of the Catholic Church, which contains the prohibitions on divorce. Not one of those provisions was in the Constitution of the Irish Free State. Those are the albatrosses we are all trying to unhang from around our necks placed on them by that Deputy's grandfather, who now thinks fit to extol him as an example to follow in regard to restoring Irish unity.

What was done in his time, or in the time of his successor for that matter, for Irish unity? Did he convert a single Unionist heart? Did he win back a single inch of the Six County territory? Not one, is the answer to both questions. I will take no lecturing from that branch of Irish nationalism, which has done its crazy damndest to leave this country unhappy and divided for ever.

The intellectual quality of her arguments was devastating. We were one island; it was a geographical unity and so it must follow that it should be a political unity. The island next door is a geographical unity and I should like to know if that means that Deputy Síle de Valera would give the back of her hand to the Scottish Nationalists or the Welsh Nationalists? Are they traitors? Is their behaviour treasonable or are their aspirations treasonable? Would she advise them that since Britain is a geographical unit there was no sense, reason or right in anybody ever to dispute that it should be a political unit also? The Iberian Peninsula, the Scandinavian Peninsula are geographical units, but after long wars and dissensions the rights of people other than the predominant people, were established in both peninsulas. Nobody thinks there is anything strange about that. The cowboys and the Indians shared the same territory. It could be said that the Middle-West was a geographical unit; but that did not stop one side trying to exterminate the other before being scalped themselves.

That is the devastating level of the intellectual argument on which the Deputy opposite me rode to power here. It nicely coincided with the discontent within the Fianna Fáil Party which rose to panic level after the Cork by-elections. It nicely coincided with the mystique, with the impression of tacit but volcanic commitment to the North of Ireland which had been allowed to grow up around him, and around his followers, over the last ten silent years. It was essentially in the wake of that wave of feeling in the Fianna Fáil Party that the change of last December took place. When the change was accomplished, of course we saw a development then unfolding which was by no means unprecedented, because every leader of that party since it was founded has had to do the very same thing: trim in his arrogant sails that he floated so proudly in Opposition, haul them down and sing very dumb and low about the things which were nonnegotiable before that. Not one word has been heard since then, or since 1977 when the Fianna Fáil Party returned to office, about the "unilateral commitment by the British to withdraw" which they wanted to obtain and which they identified as being the one way to national peace. We have not heard a word and, like all his predecessors, he has scaled down his demands. There was no word of unilateral withdrawal. Instead, we got a demonstration from him, the second within one year, of what he understands by an Irish solution to an Irish problem. The first Irish solution to the Irish problem arose in connection with the Bill to amend the law relating to contraceptives. That Bill was signed by the President on 23 July last and we are still waiting for the regulations which are to give it teeth.

The Deputy will have to relate all this to the debate before the House.

That is what is an Irish solution to an Irish problem is. It is a problem which notoriously has an all-Ireland dimension.

The making of regulations or anything else to do with a Bill does not have anything to do with the debate before the House.

The Irish solution to the Irish problem consists in words, in old guff; speak a few, write a few, even put a few in a law or constitution; and the job is right. The ignorant supporters—the more ignorant they will be the more numerous they will be in a context like this—will consider the person a hero if the words are correct. It is the verbal patriotism on which Liam Cosgrave poured such justified contempt when Taoiseach, and the verbal patriotism for which this party still has nothing but contempt.

Liam Cosgrave and contraception?

Liam Cosgrave obeyed his conscience. I should like to know the Taoiseach's personal view of Senator Cooney's Bill when he voted against it for no better reason than that the Party Whip put him into the lobby.

We are not dealing with contraception as such during this debate. It may have a slight relevance, but the Deputy should return to the motion.

It has every relevance to the motion.

The Chair will rule the House and not Deputy Harte.

After the change in December there was a new Irish problem on the floor, the problem which Deputy Haughey had brought upon himself, the problem of how to satisfy the muddled heads in his own party, the muddled heads chief of them being that of Deputy Síle de Valera. The problem was how to make them feel that something was now happening which could not have happened under Deputy Lynch. He allowed his publicity machine to create the impression which his admirers in the media eagerly took up, that something was going to happen when he met Mrs. Thatcher and that there was now going to be an initiative of a sort which had never been seen before.

It is, in fact, likely that there will be an initiative. I believe Mrs. Thatcher, the Prime Minister before her, Mr. Wilson, and Mr. Heath, are sick and tired of the North of Ireland. I do not think there is any such thing left in Britain as Unionism in the old sense, namely, an emotional commitment to the political union of a part of this island with the other. I do not believe there is such a thing as a Unionist in that sense left in the island of Britain, in either party. I believe they would be thoroughly glad to be rid and shut of the whole problem. If Mrs. Thatcher can think of some way of doing that while not betraying the SDLP—that is the vital part—I believe she will do it. I hope she succeeds in thinking up something like that, because the British should surely have learned by now that if one refuses to do business with reasonable people one will end up doing business with unreasonable people. The British should have learned by now that the elected representatives of the Northern minority have behaved for the last 12 years with unparalleled restraint and courage, very often personal courage. They must not be let down by this State, by either Government or Opposition here; but the British Government, even in their own selfish interest, have a duty to them. I believe they see that not so much as a duty but as a necessity to stand by them and that section of the minority which has not fallen into the arms of the gunmen.

I believe an initiative, sooner or later, will be forthcoming. However, I have just given the reason for it. It certainly will not be in consequence of any conviction or confidence that the present Fianna Fáil Government or leadership has succeeded in awakening. The emphasis, stressed here at great length and much more sober length, I admit—I say that in admiration—by Deputy FitzGerald this morning, placed by the Fianna Fáil Party and its leadership in this matter is on the wrong point. I may go further than Deputy FitzGerald in this regard but, as I said before, I regard the British as nearly irrelevant in this situation. Of course, it is nice to have their goodwill, it is nice to have their assistance and it would be preferable if they were helpful rather than unhelpful. But there is only one real obstacle to Irish unity, and that is the absolute unwillingness of the Northern Unionist interest that such a thing should come about, or at least that it should come about under the aegis of this State or as part of this State.

That unwillingness, so long as it exists, will prevent Irish unity from coming about. I regard the talk about unity by peaceful means, unity only by consent and renouncing the use of force, as being disingenous as well as being, if it is combined with talk about getting the British to withdraw guarantees, down right dishonest and counter-productive. It is disingenous because this State would not be capable physically, morally or financially of taking over the North of Ireland any other way. I hope nobody will think it seditious or treasonable to say that. I should like Members on the far side, or on any side of the House, people in the press or elsewhere to ask themselves how many volunteers could be raised in this State to conduct an offensive operation against the North of Ireland with the aim of incorporating it in this State and keeping it incorporated in it? We are put to the pin of our collars to keep order in Seán MacDermott Street. What chance do we have of bullying by force one million Unionists into a State which they would fight rather than join? The answer is no chance. The answer is that we do not want to do it, even if we were capable, and we could not pay for such a thing. Why give ourselves credit for renouncing the use of force when everyone knows that it is not a possibility to start with? That is disingenuous, and even the humblest Unionist with even the most modest education and with the deepest prejudices can see that. Still we talk about unity only by peaceful means. At the same time we produce the double-think and double-speak in regard to the second leg of what is supposed to be our State's policy as represented by the present administration.

Double think was described by the man who invented the phrase, George Orwell, as holding two contradictory opinions simultaneously and accepting both of them. In this State, with the miádh that rests on it, it has another meaning. It means not only accepting these opinions but pretending that others ought to accept them too. It means attributing a certain blindness and under-privilege to the Unionist population if they cannot see we are right about it. It is dishonest and counter-productive to talk in one breath about unity by consent and in the next to say we deny the right of a minority to opt out of the Irish nation. In other words, we deny them the right to withhold their consent. What kind of consent is that? The word "consent" in any setting, not just a lawyer's one, implies a free consent. An extorted consent in any legal system or constitutional system in the world means that what is consented to is a nullity. It must be a nullity in justice, because it is not a real consent. If I were a Unionist I could not find words to express the contempt, scorn and bitterness I would feel on hearing someone on the benches over there, himself and his faction already deeply suspect in my eyes for other reasons, mouthing about "unity only by consent and peaceful means" but being willing to blackguard me into giving that consent, talking to the English as though it were up to them to withdraw guarantees, to undermine me, to pull away the platform on which I stand and the plank to which I cling. I am far from being in love with the unionists. I make no secret to the House of my feeling that we do a lot of flowery talk about the inherent unity of Irish people but it is more than a lot of us feel. I do not have much in common with Dr. Paisley or the Rev. Martin Smyth or any of their followers. It would take a lot to make me emotionally convinced I had. However, I am willing for the purposes of the debate to go along with this proposition.

If we are going to talk about these sundered brethren and these Irishmen who share a different tradition but love the same country, we must look at it from their point of view. What are they to think when they hear "unity by consent" in one breath and in the next that they have no right to withhold that consent? They are "not allowed to opt out of the Irish people." They are to join us only if they agree; but they are not free to disagree. What are they to think when they hear that the things to which they cling are in some way illicit or illegitimate and that the people who offer them those guarantees ought to withdraw them?

I know what I would do. I would dig my heels further and further in and I would say: "Be damned to you. Be damned to that kind of talk." I am not a unionist and have very little fellow feeling with them. I admit that, which Deputies do not often do. If I were, that is what my reaction would be, and I believe it is what the Government's reaction would be if someone proposed to dispose of their future behind their back over tea with an English woman. That is what their reaction would be. They would say: "Over my dead body will that happen." As Deputy FitzGerald said, even the most moderate, liberal and mildest of unionists have been switched off over the last ten years by a combination of the IRA and the double-think from Fianna Fáil—the IRA it was not possible to find a mention of in the presidential speech at the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis or in today's debate on the Fianna Fáil side. What is a unionist to think?

I have often said, and I will say it again, that the unionists have only themselves to thank that a monster like the IRA has risen in their midst. They neglected and ignored all warnings and advice whether loud or soft, issued by the British or by ourselves or by their own minority. They brushed aside all warnings. They treated the civil rights movement, which was non-violent, with contempt. They walked on the Nationalist people and created a state out of which nothing but something like the IRA could come. I do not ignore or overlook the fact that they brought those disasters in the long term to a large extent on themselves. However, that does not free us from responsibility, when we find murderers flying our flag and pretending to have the right to fly it and speak for us, it does not diminish our responsibility to deny that they speak for us, and to keep on denying it. That will cost Fianna Fáil votes.

We did not have a bishop in the Coalition, we had Cruisers not croziers. The Cruiser denied it week in week out. Perhaps he overdid it and probably lost votes as a result, because volatile Irish opinion will only take a certain amount of hectoring along those lines. But in a presidential address at an Ard-Fheis of a Government party we would expect something about it.

I know why there is not a word: a large section of the Fianna Fáil Party attribute the defeat of the national Coalition to their having taken a firm, unyielding unvarying stand about the IRA and violence. The week after the national Coalition went out the Roscommon county council sat in conclave. A Fianna Fáil councillor, a colleague of Deputies Leyden and Doherty, said that the reason the Coalition had gone out was because they had "persecuted republicans". Did we persecute Deputy Haughey or Deputy Meaney? They are republicans. Deputy Leonard is a republican. Deputy Conaghan is a republican, Deputy Farrell is a republican, Deputy O'Hanlon is a republican. Did we persecute them? No, only the gun-republicans. It was the gun-republicans and not the guff-republicans we were out to get. But that was enough to put us out, in the view of a segment of the Fianna Fáil Party; and therefore their present leadership was very careful not to tread on those sensitive toes.

What is a unionist to think when he finds speeches from that leadership in which not one word is said about the things which he, misguided as he may be and selfish as he may have been, identifies as the root and main cause of the violence which is ruining his life and his children's future? Unionists have been a contemptible crew in the past and perhaps still are. They have yet to produce a leader who speaks the truth fearlessly to their own savage wild men in the way Liam Cosgrave and Deputy Lynch spoke to the wild men who purport to fly the tricolour. When such a leader shows a sign of surfacing he is trampled under foot at once, witness O'Neill and Faulkner.

I have no great regard for them, but I recognise that they look on the bit of this country that they occupy as their country. Where else are they to go? It is no use saying they can go back to Scotland or England, as I hear some ignoramuses saying. They have as much roots there in spite of their distant origins in the place, as the Afrikaners in South Africa have in Holland. The settlements took place in the very same century, and the links are about as strong. If there were some kind of national calamity such as an earthquake which split the six Counties into bits the British and Scottish would presumably be willing to "take them back"; but in no other context would they dream of it. It does not make sense to talk like that. I recognise the reason they are there is one which is full of horror, shame and humiliation for the nationalist population, based on the history of the seventeenth century. But where else are they to go? They only have that bit of ground, and regard themselves as a people apart. They have a certain legitimacy there. I do not overlook their sins, crimes, neglect and selfishness. They probably have themselves largely to thank for the horrors that have come in their midst.

But the sensitivity which I would expect a Taoiseach in Ireland and his party to show to the feeling, instinct and rooted beliefs of the very people we must convince—if we are ever to achieve unity—is just not visible with the present Fianna Fáil Administration. It was visible when Deputy Liam Cosgrave was there; it was visible when Dr. Garret FitzGerald was Minister for Foreign Affairs. Let me say it is visible in every word that Deputy Harte utters when he speaks on this subject.

There are two things only that we can usefully do. Both of them involve ignoring the English, or regarding them as being an unimportant part of this situation. One is to talk directly to the Unionists. It may mean doing things never done before—as I have said—taking pages in the local and provincial press in the North or in whatever fragments remain of the Belfast press, whole pages, and employing the advertising skills we use in persuading the Irish voter to vote for Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil or the Labour Party, and try and tell them so far as we can honestly the truth about this State. We will not free them of all apprehension—we will not free them of all— because we have a lot of blemishes, but at least try and disabuse them of the wrong ideas they have got about it. Secondly—and I must credit Deputy O'Hanlon with having said it—we must build our economy to the point that it is a source of envy and admiration to them. It is something that is not perhaps popular or——

The Chair understood that the Deputy was giving some time to some other Deputy. There are eight minutes only remaining in this half hour.

I did not realise that, Sir. Then I shall omit my concluding remarks.

Deputy White. The Deputy has eight minutes.

I think we can give Deputy White ten minutes.

The Chair will not be too hard on the Deputy.

I shall commence by quoting from what the Taoiseach had to say this morning:

I reaffirmed the wish of the Irish Government to secure the unity of Ireland by agreement and in peace. That is our aim. We seek an arrangement whereby all Irishmen no matter what their traditions would manage the affairs of this island without British participation...

He then continued to say:

for unity is a fact of history...

First of all, this could have been said in 1930. Certainly it was said in 1940, 1950 and 1960.

Being the pragmatist and realist that he is I am disappointed that the Taoiseach has not given us his views on how we can achieve some kind of unity in 1980. There is a lot of talk about unity by consent. It is about time the Fianna Fáil Party spelled out exactly what they mean by unity by consent. Practically every honest person in this country today knows that when we talk about unity by consent we are not talking about a total thirty-two county united Ireland, certainly not today. It is only fair that the Taoiseach, as leader of this country, in particular as leader of Fianna Fáil, should spell out exactly what he means by unity by consent.

Many people envisage some kind of new initiative forthcoming from the British Government in the next 12 months. Probably it will be some kind of new election but there will be "buts" and "ifs" in so far as there will be no over-all majority as far as this matter is concerned in Northern Ireland. If we want to be realistic about it neither do I think there would be any one party in a majority even if there were an election in Northern Ireland today. There are at least five different threads of opinion today stretching from the deepest Unionist to the deepest Republican. Even if an election were held in Northern Ireland in the next 12 months I have no doubt but that there would not be any kind of majority. Hence the minority's holding in Northern Ireland would certainly be safeguarded.

It is fair to say that every one of these debates to which I have listened on Northern Ireland is inclined to carry an emotional air. Like it or not, since the twenties, there is no such thing as a thirty-two county Ireland. We have two different States. It is about time people woke up, particularly the politicians, and said loudly and clearly that there is one way only in which we can co-operate. Since the twenties we have had the Twenty-Six Counties and the Six Counties; we have a very deep divide between the different communities and traditions, particularly in so far as the Six Counties are concerned. Even if there were a poll in Northen Ireland in the morning the vast majority of people there today would not want to come into a Twenty-Six County set-up. Probably the majority of Catholics in Northern Ireland would not vote to come into the Twenty-Six County set-up at present. What are we left with? There must be some kind of new initiative as far as Northern Ireland is concerned. There must be some form of power sharing whereby the people of Northern Ireland have some say in their set-up. Of course we would hope that any such power-sharing would develop on a confederate basis with the different Ministers of the different Governments coming together. Perhaps I am being too honest in 1980 when I say that, as I see it—not as a unionist but as somebody who has always believed in a thirty-two county Ireland—the only way in which I can envisage a thirty-two county Ireland today is through that type of new initiative. The Taoiseach should be honest with the people of this country and spell out exactly what is the new policy of Fianna Fáil as far as Northern Ireland is concerned.

I am disappointed also that we are not—and particularly the present Government—offering the hand of friendship. I do not think we have done enough as far as friendship is concerned vis-à-vis the different traditions in Northern Ireland; one can go as far as one likes, from the Democratic Unionist to the Unionist, to the Alliance, to the UDA, to the SDLP and to the Republican clubs. Admittedly we have had negotiations with the SDLP. I doubt very much whether there have been negotiations with the Republican Clubs. We understand that there have been negotiations with the UDA. Are we in this country ashamed to state that the Taoiseach of Ireland did not or would not comment that he met the UDA, whether it was in Monaghan, Dublin or wherever? Is the Taoiseach ashamed to meet the Unionist population, ashamed to meet the Democratic Unionist population? If we are serious about bringing all these sides together, we must throw out the hand of friendship; we must invite these people down here——

I have done that.

If necessary, go up there and invite them.

I have done that.

——meet them in England; has the Taoiseach met them?

I have done that.

Has the Taoiseach met the Unionist population, the Unionist leaders in Northern Ireland to date?

The Deputy has said I must invite them to come and see me. I have done that.

The Taoiseach has invited them——

I am allowing Deputy White three or four minutes to conclude over and above.

Well, I will go further; will the Deputy tell me?

That is fine—the Taoiseach will meet anybody; he will show the hand of friendship to anybody?

——and discuss whatever type of problem——

The one thing I would like to emphasise is this—probably the greatest problem today is that of fear as far as these people are concerned. Probably a lot of us do not understand this; perhaps I should understand this a lot better than others. Indeed there may even be a lot of Deputies from, say, Cork, Clare or Kerry who have never visited Northern Ireland. There is probably many an MP from Northern Ireland who has never visited Kerry, Cork or even Dublin. The first thing we, and the Taoiseach himself, must endeavour to do is to get these people together, whether it be in Dublin, Belfast—it is immaterial—one could meet them in Brussels, Strasbourg or London—but meet them, talk with them, discuss little problems with them; go back and talk with them again and gradually wear down this terrible fear as far as they are concerned.

The Deputy is pushing an open door in that regard.

Thank you. Some previous speaker said—and he was quite right—that when we talk about the majority in Northern Ireland it must be remembered that they come from very tough stock. They come from the stock of Mitchell and Tone, a stubborn tough streak. Above all they are very determined, and there will not be any way in which we can impose our will on them. The only way in which they will come together with us is through a sense of co-operation.

There are many ways in which we can co-operate with them, for instance, tourism and sport. Is it right in this day and age that we must have two soccer teams, one North and one South? If the two teams could come together it would give the general image of Ireland a far better name. Is it right, for example, that as far as EEC agricultural policy is concerned we are getting our fair share of money but they are not? Surely we could speak on their behalf as well as on our own. Could we, for instance, get Córas Tráchtála and the Northern Ireland Export Board together and under a common flag, North and South, promote Irish goods on the export market?

This year we can look back 60 years since this State was founded, but after that time do we yet understand the traditions in the North any better?

To my mind, the debate so far has indicated one thing if nothing else, that there appears to be a great lack of urgency in our approach to the tragic problems of the Six Counties. There was frightening unreality in the approach of the main Opposition speaker——

Was Deputy Blaney present when the Taoiseach was speaking, and if so did he hear his speech?

Deputy Harte will have a chance to come in on this and he can say what he has to say then instead of occupying part of the short time available to me. As I have said, you would not appear to be dealing with this as the urgent matter it is. I can only describe the Leader of the Opposition as drooling and dribbling when he spoke about the Catholic Church control of affairs here. How can the people in the Six Counties say that when the head of the church there is also the head of State?

Let us get away from this idea of Catholic Church domination. All we are doing is adding fuel to the fire which has been lit deliberately over the years. Let me put it on record once again that in my 13 years in Government, sitting at a Cabinet table, I can honestly say that not once in those 13 years did the Catholic Church or hierarchy intervention ever influence any decisions we had to take, and many decisions were taken by the Governments of those days. Let us do away with this idea of Catholic Church domination down here and say to the people who express these ideas that they are the last who should talk about religious domination when the head of their Government is also head of their own church.

If the Leader of the Opposition knows anything about conditions in the Six Counties I would advise him to sit down for a long hard think to try to de-confuse himself instead of coming in here talking down to the rest of us as if we did not know what is happening in the Six Counties. When I spoke about urgency earlier on I remarked that we seem to ignore entirely that there is a drastic situation at this moment in the Six Counties, that we have a large prison population there that has been boosted as a result of suppression and institutionalised violence. But we take ourselves away from that reality when we say that we will deal as equal partners with Britain.

Let us remember that the two sides are not level, that they are not on a par. We have been occupied by Britain for eight centuries. We had Partition imposed on us by them by the threat of terrible immediate war in 1921, and we have had the minority of our people within the Six Counties brutalised by the institutionalised violence perpetrated on them, and all of that by Great Britain with whom we cannot sit down to talk to as if things were equal. They are not equal. They have brought about this situation, they are responsible for maintaining that situation and until they get it into their nuts that we are not prepared at any time ever to accept what they have been doing there will not be a solution or an easing of the tragedy. The British are responsible, they brought it about, they are maintaining it today and they will maintain it tomorrow.

This is the lack of unreality and of urgency that I have been speaking about, and it has been exemplified somewhat by what has been said here today, particularly by the main speakers. We had Deputy Cluskey, whose contribution I will describe in just a few words. He made a nit-picking speech. If things do not work out in the future, if things do not go a certain way, he wondered who will be to blame. He finished up by painting a gloomy picture of the overall economic situation in this island, even gloomier than it is. He would have us believe that gloomy though the economic outlook may be not only in Ireland as a whole and indeed in the greater part of the world, in a sense we South of the Border have a gloomier outlook or as bad an economic situation as they have in the Six Counties.

That is not true. The economic situation in the Six Counties today is a disaster, and we know this. We can only begin to think what a difference it could make to the gloom existing here in regard to our economy and to the disaster of the economy in the Six Counties if we could go forward as an entity instead of wasting that of which we have too little in maintaining a Border that should never have been there. To the outsider we must look the most ludicrous people on earth because we are spending vast sums of money, of which we have too little for many necessary things, to maintain the Border that all of us are committed to remove. We have lived with this for so long and we have come to accept it but it is ludicrous in the extreme. If there is a need for security on the Border from our point of view, we should tell Mrs. Thatcher and her Government that if they want our continued co-operation in this security matter they should foot the bill. It is rubbing salt into the wound to find that we are helping to maintain the Border in a physical sense while, at the same time, it is costing us money that the British Government should be paying.

I am not here, as I may have been expected to do, to condemn what the Taoiseach has done or has not done in so far as his meeting was concerned. I am here to query what has been said about some of the more important and urgent matters discussed at the meeting with Mrs. Thatcher. I should like to know from the Taoiseach if he has made the point that the British Government should cease giving the guarantee to the North as they have done consistently for many years. Secondly, does the Taoiseach intend asking the British to make a declaration of their intention to withdraw?

All the talk at summit meetings and elsewhere will be of no use in solving the problem of the Six Counties and the division in the population there or between here and the Six Counties while Britain continues to say to the contrived majority put in the Six Counties by her that she will not leave there so long as the majority wants her to stay. This means Britain is saying to the majority that she will stay there until Tibb's Eve. That is the reality of the situation. It is the reason why I have advocated persistently during the years that it is a waste of time talking about having talks with our opposite numbers in the Six Counties, with people of Unionist outlook, because they do not have anything to talk to us about. Unionism is not divisible. Therefore, the idea of people who hold those views very strongly discussing the matter with us in any context other than union with Britain is ridiculous when Britain says she will stay there so long as they want her to stay. The majority will never tell Britain they do not want her. Is it not time after all those years that Britain realised that all of her other initiatives have been completely abortive and counter-productive and that any further effort on the same road will be counter-productive also? At best it will not produce anything other than a continuation of what we have today.

A declaration of intent on the part of the British should have been sought by this Parliament years ago. If Britain had given such a declaration it would have given us the only opportunity of sitting down with the Unionist people and their representatives to discuss our future within the island, whether as two separate entities in the island, whether as one or in the federal, confederal or condominium concept. Then we would be talking in the context of reality. While Britain maintains her stance of continuing her guarantee to stay and without giving a declaration of her intention to go, there will be no change. We will merely send the fool further; in this case the fools are the people globally of the Six Counties, of the minority and majority, Catholic, Protestant, Nationalist, Dissenter and so on. No real beginning can be made to bring about a peaceful end until Britain makes a declaration of her intention to go. She has tried every other device and all have failed. Let us not have a further initiative that will merely be something tried before but dressed up in a new garb. We have had too many initiatives. They did not work and they will not work, simply because of the assurance to the Unionists that Britain will not go. So long as that contrived majority is a majority in the Six Counties, their answer to Britain will be that they do not want her to go. Therefore, they have nothing to talk to us about.

In the communique issued by the two leaders there was a very disturbing feature in that there appeared to be acceptance or acquiescence by the Taoiseach of the right of the majority in the Six Counties to determine the future of the whole island so far as unity or otherwise is concerned. However, quickly after that and in his speech today the Taoiseach contradicted that. If I am wrong—I hope I am—I am open to correction, but it appears to me that what the Taoiseach said subsequently and what he said today contradicted what was stated in the communiqué. Today he asserted quite rightly that no part of the nation has the right to opt out. I hope this point is cleared up and that there is no question but that the Taoiseach's statement today was the real statement and the one of paramount importance, namely, that we do not agree that any part of this country has the right to opt out at any time and that we will never recognise that that was so.

The Taoiseach and others, but particularly the Taoiseach, talked here about how far he was prepared to go in assuring the people of the Six Counties of our good intentions and guaranteeing them their well-being in the future. I will go much further than the Taoiseach or perhaps anybody else. Our Constitution was designed for all of Ireland but it was enacted effectively by only the people of the Twenty-Six Counties and therefore it does not necessarily reflect the differences of outlook which would particularly be noticed in the north east counties. If we are to have a referendum in future we should have one that is necessary to authorise the Government of the day to be in a position to say that if Britain goes and has declared her intention to go we represent the people of this part of the island with the representatives of Britain or anybody else, particularly the people of the Six Counties and those who have a different outlook from us. The entire Constitution in those circumstances does not exist. We start again and we compose a new Constitution together. We ultimately enact or do not enact that Constitution by the votes of all the electorate of the 32 counties.

This is why I have at all times been very critical of those well-meaning and well-intentioned people who talk about amending this particular Article, changing that particular Article, leaving this one out or adding something in. I do not believe in that at all. I would go quite a way with the Taoiseach when in another context he said that it is not for us to determine what it is, how it is and in what way the people of the Six Counties should live or be controlled by laws or Constitution in a future Ireland where we would not have the occupation forces of Britain or anybody else. I fully agree with that general trend of thought but I take it further. I take it back to the point that we should clear the decks so that our Government spokesmen and representatives will have the authority of the people of the 26 counties, whose votes many years ago enacted the present Constitution and who by their votes today can say to the Government's spokesman: "You have our mandate to say to the people in the North and elsewhere that it is a new Constitution we will sit down to compose together so that there will be no question of concessions by us; we should either concede this or that." That does not arise if we were talking in realism in the sense of Britain having declared her intention to go and we were trying to find a way we could live together in this country.

That, if we are thinking about a referendum, should be the only thing which would be considered. People talk about contraception, divorce and many of the other in-things of today as if these were the things which the people of the Six Counties, particularly the majority people, the Unionists, the Protestants and the Presbyterians are concerned about. They must be living in the sky if they think those are the things the people in that area are concerned about. I doubt if those things were put to that electorate they would agree with them.

The people in the Six Counties are a far better living people than we are. They are much better behaved and much better living people than we are, particularly the Presbyterians. People talk about us being different, but if that is the case I am different from the rest of the people here because I belong to that whole Ulster concept as well. I think as they do and perhaps I speak as they do. I speak in a way that it cannot be misunderstood what my intentions are. If there was more of that type of talk from the south there would be better understanding in the North of what we really mean. We must be aware at all stages of seeming to approach the people of the Six Counties as if we are giving them something, because they immediately assume that if we are offering them something there is a catch in it. One does not cod them that way. One does not get anywhere by offering them the things I am talking about which if they had the clear freedom to choose they might not choose them themselves.

Let us leave all those things aside, let us look to the real point where the beginning can be made, let us seek to convince the British that we must have a move from them. It has been said that the hinge on the door of Downing Street must be made to move. They are seeking to guarantee their continuance to stay and/or a declaration of their intention to go. This is the hinge, this is where it can begin and not until then will it begin. We can talk about co-operation or, in fact, describe it as collaboration. I am not very charitable about my choice of words and I regard it as collaboration. Co-operation with those who occupy our country cannot be regarded in the normal way as co-operation. I am sure it is so regarded by the British who are past masters at misleading those whom they are dealing with. I am sure at the back of their minds they see it as collaboration not co-operation. I still wish to see a declaration being sought.

I would like to comment on unity by consent which I consider is very misleading. We are living in a fool's paradise if we talk about unity by consent while Britain says she will stay in the Six Counties, sustain and maintain the arms and finance of that area while the majority, contrived by her in the twenties wish her to stay. Unity by consent is catch-phrase. It gives the Unionists carte blanche when we talk about unity by consent because this enables them to see our catch-phrase as a blank cheque. It leaves them in the position that if they cannot put Stormont back then they can have direct rule, which might be exactly what they want but they will go for it before they go for anything else while Britain says she will stay so long as the people in the North want her to be there.

We cannot have unity by consent while Britain continues to guarantee her presence unless the majority in the North say she is not wanted. Unity by consent is not on. It is nonsensical and misleading. That is not an accusation. I am merely saying it in the hope that those who listen may take another look at it and see how nonsensical it really is rather than it being what it appears on the surface. The three words seem fine, and who would disagree with them? It is nonsense in the context of our situation. It is worse than nonsense because it is a blank cheque to the dog in the manger attitudes which will continue to exist in the Six Counties while Britain maintains them there with her might and with her money.

What will Mrs. Thatcher and her government do about the prisoners in Long Kesh, the prisoners in Armagh jail and the Irish prisoners who are being discriminated against in British jails today? Let us forget altogether about the manner in which those people are being incarcerated, the no paroles and the non-reduction of sentences. They are being compelled to serve their sentences in Britain while the offenders in the British Army, of which a few have been brought to book, can be transferred over and non-republican prisoners in Britain can have their wishes granted to be transferred back to the Six Counties so that their people and their families may not suffer unduly, while the Republican prisoners in Britain are condemned to suffer because they can seldom be visited. The Taoiseach may have some information on those things and I would be glad of it. I am sure these things did not form a particular part of the Taoiseach's statement but I take it that this does not mean that no reference was made to them.

Any realistic approach to curing the problem and the tragedy of the Six Counties will only be achieved when this country is no longer occupied by the foreign power which has been here too long. That foreign power would be prepared to get out only that their pride is involved. I do not say that lightly. The majority of the British people along with the vast majority of the people in the Thirty-two Counties, including perhaps 40 per cent of the people in Northern Ireland, would wish the British to get out of Northern Ireland and perhaps more would wish it if the outlook were different and people were not afraid that they would be caught up in some net or other if they went. Surely in face of all that we are not facing up to reality. We would be facing reality if we insisted on a cessation of the guarantee and a declaration of intention to withdraw. That is the point at which we must begin. Anything else will merely continue violence and counter violence. Whoever may be responsible for it, it is the circumstances that have caused it, and until we change the circumstances we can change nothing. We must begin with a declaration of intention to withdraw by the British from this country.

Opening the debate this morning the Taoiseach said that in the context of the developing new relationship between Britain and Ireland he believed that some solution to this age old problem that is the North, some new way forward, can and must be found. The Taoiseach went on to say that in searching for this new way forward we must recognise that the problem cannot be solved in the context of Northern Ireland alone. I endorse that view. It is one of the tragedies with which we have to live that we are very much prisoners of our past. We all have our own version of history but the suffering that we inflict on ourselves as a result of locking ourselves into that history and not being able or willing to escape from it means that we have seen ourselves condemned as a people to recurring violence and problems in the north east part of the island.

How can we move forward? Are there any clear solutions that can be advocated? I would not be so bold as to suggest that there is any single unique way out of our history and our present impasse, but there are hopeful signs and there are ways in which this progress towards unity can take place. I also feel that economic and social factors will play a very significant part in that process so I will concentrate my remarks on these factors.

It is relevant for me to say a little about my perception of the history that has led us to the presentday situation. I have never been convinced that the differences in Northern Ireland were based on any religious factors. Even if one wants to go back as far as the Battle of the Boyne there was quite a degree of support throughout Catholic Europe for the victory of the Prince of Orange. I find it difficult to be convinced that there was a simple religious divide on the issue. Neither have I ever been convinced that the differences were based on some sort of loyalty to the British Crown on the part of Protestant Ulster as against some form of commitment to Ireland on the part of the Catholic minority in the north east counties. Looking at the famous Ulster Covenant of 1912 where the slogan was that "Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right", I was always convinced that the fighting was going to be against the British Army. That is hardly a very eloquent way in which to express loyalty to the British crown.

Not being convinced that these differences were wholly attributable to religious or political factors I tend to place more emphasis on other attributing causes: I see economic forces playing a very significant part in that process. On reading some of the history of Ulster one can see clearly the struggle for the ownership and control of land. Surely that is a very powerful motivating force of an economic nature leading to deep differences among people. We know that problems of land ownership and tenure have afflicted not only other parts of this island but many other parts of Britain as well. It is not surprising to find that the struggle for land, the right to use it adequately and so on, was a cause of deep emotion and lasting passions. The tragedy in the Irish case is that it became cocooned into two quite distinctive camps and later, after that struggle for land ownership and control has been more or less resolved, we see the development of an industrial base in the north east which was very different from the pattern of development elsewhere on the island. That gave a very logical economic basis for differentiation or distinction between the two areas. In association with that growth of industry in the north east we had the emergence of the many forms of discrimination which have persisted up to the present day. In the search for work by a growing population with limited opportunities, the decision as to how to allocate these jobs became more and more associated with the categories who had ownership and control of the land or other wealth in the area and hence the basis for deciding that a man's religion was a major factor in relation to whether or not he would find work.

These economic forces, caught up in the earlier history of land ownership and in the later pattern of industrial development, are much more convincing factors in the emergence of the North of Ireland problem than the simple reference to religion or loyalty to the Crown. If economic factors have been powerful and important in the past they can be equally important and perhaps more important in the future. That is what gives me the possibility of striking a more encouraging note in looking forward.

Before I move on to that, I cannot resist digressing for a few moments to comment on some of the remarks made earlier. I do not agree with everything Deputy Blaney says but I agree with him where he made the point that he was not convinced that issues such as contraception and divorce were major factors in any consideration of movement towards Irish unity on the part of the majority community in the North. I agree with that. My experience of Northern people from meeting different groups of different religious denominations and so forth is that I was always struck by the fact that in many respects they were far closer to what might be regarded as the traditional religious values of the people in the South than they would be to many of the more contemporary or more liberal developments elsewhere in the world. For that reason I was very surprised at the emphasis which Deputy FitzGerald placed on those areas this morning, but even more surprised that of all the subjects which he should have taken to try to illustrate the flawed pedigree of or the lack of credibility which would attach to Fianna Fáil initially for development on the Northern front, he should have referred to contraception and to our apparent inability to deal adequately with that problem. What sort of lapse of memory has he suffered? Whatever else one wants to say, surely you can point quite clearly to the fact that here was an area where there were differing views held very strongly by many groups within the community, an issue which has persisted and plagued us for many years, and what happened? When the Coalition were in power they made an inglorious effort to deal with the problem and failed so dismally that their own Government were divided. We all remember the then Taoiseach and one of his Ministers voting against their own Government's proposed legislation. Whatever one says about the merits or demerits of legislation put forward by Fianna Fáil in this area, is not the crucial point that we succeeded in bringing forward legislation which could command the support of the party and which could be implemented as the law of the land?

Provided you implement it, because it is still not implemented.

It has been brought forward and put on the Statute Book and can be implemented.

This is the democratic process at work and this is the kind of example which would point to the Unionists and say, "There, we can take a difficult problem which can easily rend the community in two, and we have demonstrated our ability as a party and as a Government to resolve it peacefully and to produce a way forward that will not cause major friction and dissent in the community as a whole". Far from it being any sort of a blot on our copybook, I argue the complete opposite and show that this is the sort of thing which should reassure the Unionists. There is no point in coming out and being fair-weather sailors and saying that we can say nice things and do nice things when there are no difficult problems to resolve. It is when the going gets rough and there are very deep, difficult, complex problems to be resolved that any democratic process is tested and its true character revealed. That is when the worth and strength of any political party emerge. If I were trying to debate the matter with a convinced Unionist I would say to him, "Of course there are deeply held differences. Of course our history has led us along different paths, but if you want any assurance as to whether we are capable of hammering out a peaceful compromise and living by it, look at our record". Our record shows down through the years, not just on this contraception issue, that any time Fianna Fáil were in Government they were always capable of dealing with problems however complex, deeply-rooted or potentially explosive. They always dealt with them and the potential was always defused.

Contrast that with the failures over the years on not just one but many occasions by other political parties who, when faced with complex and divisive issues, divided and collapsed under the strain. I am sorry that I have to introduce that sort of party note into the discussion, but in the interests of getting the record straight it is worth making the point and perhaps stressing that if we, want to convince Unionists of our ability to manage Irish unity—I do not think that anyone is going to question our sincerity and I hope they will not—surely we as a House want to demonstrate to them that we are capable of living with our history, accepting it and then building on it to produce a better future.

In that context, what can we say about the possibility for taking the history, not just of our own political parties here in this House, but of the island North and South and asking if we can build on it? Since I have argued that much of the basis for partition lay in the different historical developments of the two parts of the island—in particular the North of Ireland ended up with the much greater industrial base—there was a rationale which could have made partition attractive in 1920 but that rationale has disappeared now. We know what has been happening to developments in the two parts of the island in recent decades. If we look at what is happening in the North we see the pattern of stagnant output and a significant fall in agricultural output during the seventies. We see that the population, far from rising as it has in the South, is stagnant or even falling at times because there has been substantial emigration persistently from Northern Ireland right through the seventies.

If we look at the kind of policies which are in operation at present we see little prospect for any area improvement in the economic situation in the North. Why? Because, in so far as one can look at things like the exchange rate between sterling and the £IR, the strength of sterling owes much to the fact that Britain enjoys the benefit of North Sea oil. In the popular jargon of the international business community, it has become a petrol currency. While it is nice to have a petrol currency in terms of strengthening the value of your currency on international markets, that has rather devastating effects on the competitiveness of your industry. Much of British industry is losing out on export and home markets as a consequence of this relative over-pricing of sterling as against other currencies. That is the case particularly in Northern Ireland because Northern Ireland prices, being fixed in sterling, become increasingly uncompetitive and they do not have the benefits of North Sea oil or cheap North Sea gas as energy sources. That kind of financial policy does not hold out much optimism for an early recovery in the trading prospects of Northern industry.

If we look at the agricultural sector, which is important to the North, we see that the nature of the policy which Britain adopts within the EEC context, while it may be relevant and appropriate viewed in terms of the United Kingdom as a whole, is not the most appropriate and suitable for the farmers of Northern Ireland. Hence, in the seven years since EEC membership, we have seen this widening gap between the economic performance of agriculture, North and South, with the farmers of the Republic benefiting much more obviously and systematically from the arrangements made which are geared to an agriculturally-based economy with a large export surplus. That is the sort of policy which should be applied for Northern Ireland's agriculture also, but which is not because of the more substantial and pressing concerns of UK economic policy in the agricultural area.

In addition to industry and agriculture, if we look at the prospects for Government spending—and we know Government spending has a very important role to play in Northern Ireland—we cannot be too sanguine because the nature of the financial policies being pursued by the British Government call for no growth at all, indeed for some reduction in the volume of public spending in the Six Counties for the next three to four years. How can we be optimistic about any significant improvement in the economic affairs of Northern Ireland over the coming year if we see a financial policy that is unlikely to benefit industry significantly, an agricultural policy that will not benefit its farmers, and a financial policy that is likely to lead to cutbacks rather than to any expansion in the area of the public service? That is what is happening in the North. That, added to the lack of growth and the lack of development in the seventies, means that the original economic basis for Partition, the original gap between a wealthier North and a poorer South, has now disappeared. In many areas, some income levels and living standards are equal to or better than those in the North.

If we look ahead to the eighties and later years, we can feel more optimistic legitimately about our prospects than those of the people in the Six Counties under the present arrangement. Despite Deputy Cluskey's remarks about the relatively poor economic outlook for us during the current year, I would point out that it is a relative description. It may appear gloomy after the substantial progress of the past two to three years, but it is by no means gloomy when one looks around the world and sees what is happening elsewhere. It is a reasonably safe forecast that the performance of the Irish economy this year, in terms of output, employment, and so on, will be far superior to that of the United Kingdom.

I do not see any cause for adopting anything other than a positive view of the potential benefits that could accure to the people of Northern Ireland from a closer association with the Republic in the years ahead. If asked what those benefits would be, one lists the reverse of what is happening. There would be a more appropriate agricultural policy. In the area of industry, quite apart from any shift in exchange rates and the adoption of a more suitable rate for the circumstances of Northern Ireland, if the type of programme operated by the IDA, which has produced such a tremendous influx of new industries here, were extended to the whole island, surely it would bring very real and quick benefits to the many unemployed people in Northern Ireland who must have very serious questions about the prospects of their ever finding one under the present regime.

One could point to those new policy areas as being areas that would benefit the North. Since I have mentioned the harmful effects on the North's industry of being linked with a petro-currency, even though they do not have oil, within an all-Ireland context it would be feasible, and could be quite a worthwhile project, to contemplate extending any supply of gas from the Kinsale field to Northern Ireland, as well as to areas such as Dublin. Surely this is an illustration of the ways in which the coming together of the two economies would mean a very dramatic improvement in the fortunes of Northern Ireland.

Quite apart from those areas of policy which are within the competence of the people of this island, we could look to the operation of Common Market policies to assist the process of coping with our history and producing sufficient development momentum for the future. I am thinking of the ways in which the regional and social funds of the Community could be deployed. While many people have expressed degrees of disappointment at the apparently slow pace of those policies, one can see there has been a shift in the direction of making those policies more relevant to the needs of the poorer regions.

With the accession of Greece, and later, presumably, Spain and Portugal, there will be an even greater need to revamp the existing policies of the Community in that direction. I was associated with one of the major studies done in this area in the Community a few years ago, which spelled out the nature of the changes which could take place within the Community's budgetary arrangements to produce a much more effective transfer of resources to the poorer regions of the Community, even within the type of financial limits which operate on the Community budget.

That kind of adaptation of the Community's fiscal structure would be welcome not simply on this island for the benefits it would bring here, but incidentally it would also have the effect of reducing if not wholly eliminating many of the British financial problems with the Community budget. There are many positive, clear and substantial areas of progress which could be made within an all-Ireland context. In my view, there is no reason why anyone in the South need apologise for advocating unity as the solution to the Northern problem.

An earlier speaker quoted the remark of the former Taoiseach, Seán Lemass, on this question of Partition when he said: "Nothing is ever settled unless it is settled right." In the talk we hear about interim solutions, or half-way measures, or whatever, we need to step back from words. While word playing is much of the day-to-day stuff of politics it should never be allowed to obscure our awareness of the underlying issues and our grasp of the way in which we can resolve those issues. It does not matter very much whether one says one is advocating an interim solution or simply contemplating steps towards unity.

No one envisages an overnight transformation from where we are today into some totally new environment tomorrow. There must be some process by which we move from where we are to the destiny we have in mind. It is in looking at the nature of the ideas first and then at the practical realities, the facts of the situation; it is in our grasp of the facts and our application of the ideas, the conflux, the compromises that can enable us to build on those facts and move forward from the history in which we have been imprisoned, that we will surely find a lasting way forward to the solution of this age-old problem. In emphasising economic factors I imagine that the initial reaction of many people would be to feel that these are not important, that these are mundane, bread-and-butter things and that it is the dreamers of dreams and holders of legal conflux or various principles and so on who are emphasising the more important issues. However while of course man does not live on bread alone and while ideals and principles are things for which, as we know, people will not only live but will indeed die if necessary, they are by no means in themselves the whole explanation of the matter. If we want to ask why people have certain ideas at any time, why they have certain principles which they advocate, you must look for the factors that produced those ideas and principles. It is my view, as I have indicated, that many of the present-day attitudes, perceptions and beliefs held by people in Northern Ireland are based on economic factors of earlier generations because there is always a very long time-lag before people's perceptions, attitudes and feelings catch up with the reality of the situation. I believe this will prove to be the case in the present generation also, that it will be some time before the changed economic environment that has emerged in this island in recent years will filter through into the attitudes, emotions and ultimately into the behaviour of the people on this island. I believe that change will come and with its coming I have no doubt that we will make the progress towards that united Ireland which we all seek.

In the past decade there was perhaps only one reasonably hopeful development in regard to the internal political structure in Northern Ireland and when we shed all the rhetoric and all the comment we return to the particular initiative, which at a time when I was on the opposite benches the Government of the day in 1973 was successful in bringing about.

It is difficult to realise that this was in the summer of 1973, quite a long time ago. We had a situation then when there was great confusion and division within the Unionist majority ranks. Support at that time, if I recollect rightly, for the Social Democratic and Labour Party was perhaps at the highest it ever had in the history of Northern Ireland. We also had the determination of William Whitelaw and Heath at the time to bring about a new political structure in the North. The outcome was the proposal and the eventual setting-up of the Northern Ireland Executive arising from the Sunningdale Agreement.

That collapsed in 1974 due to, on the one side, the Unionist opposition—not so much to the Executive but more particularly to the Council of Ireland which was trotted around the country North and South by politicians of all shades—and of course the absolute determination of the Provisional IRA to bomb the Executive out of existence if they possibly could, and they made a substantial contribution in that direction. That succeeded in bringing about the downfall of the Executive, together with the abject political weakness, at the time, of Harold Wilson.

That was an unfortunate and tragic combination of events which wrecked Sunningdale. Ever since, right through the past eight years, those of us who would regard our approach as being sane, moderate and reasonable and aimed at reconciling the two divided communities in Northern Ireland, my Party and politicians of other parties, have been endeavouring to construct something akin to that development. There is no doubt that for all its imperfections, for all the euphoria which for a time it generated and for all the confusion and enmity which certain aspects of it particularly generated—notably the Council of Ireland—the Sunningdale concept of shared Government between majority and minority factions in Northern Ireland certainly brought about something which was regarded prior to that as totally beyond conception and totally unacceptable to both sides. Yet it came about. This was at a time of enormous political upheaval and shock, in Northern Ireland.

This brings me to a sentence in the Taoiseach's speech at the Ard-Fheis on 16 February 1980 when he said in his peroration—it was one long peroration because it had no real content—that surely the fine people of Northern Ireland deserve better than this. As we know, the Taoiseach is long on rhetoric but short on solutions. He now emerges as having no solution other than the ultimate solution. His contribution this morning and his Ard-Fheis contribution bring me back to the days when I served on the All-Party Committee on Irish relations from 1973 to 1977. Time and again when the former Attorney-General, Declan Costello, the Leader of the Fine Gael Party, Deputy FitzGerald, the former Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, Dr. Cruise O'Brien, Deputy Harte and myself and a few honorable men on the Fianna Fáil side—such as our colleague the former Deputy from Longford-Westmeath—made an effort to get the Fianna Fáil Party to examine either the Constitution or to make any proposals about anything, we had the present Ceann Comhairle and Deputy Vivion de Valera coming in saying: "Our Party have no proposals to make about anything in relation to Northern Ireland". They assured us—this was after we had met the Northern Ireland Labour Party, the Church leaders, the Alliance Party and many others during a period of almost three years—that when we would sit down to final negotiations, Fianna Fáil would be found to be generous, that they would recast the Constitution in the context of a final solution to the problem. This assurance was given to us by the present Ceann Comhairle who was flanked then by the former Deputy Carter and by Deputy Vivion de Valera and the former Deputy Patrick Smith. We were assured that even the question of divorce would be conceded notwithstanding the fact that our all-party committee on Irish relations had been berated savagely in that same room by no less a person than the late Cardinal Conway who practically threw us out of the room not to mention the Church, for bringing up such a subject.

Today we have Deputy Haughey assuring us once again that on the night of nights when the national reunification of the nation is at hand Fianna Fáil will be generous. But have we a nation? We have an island but we do not have a nation and we have not had one for hundreds of years. Neither is there any indication, having regard to current thinking on the part of people in the Republic or in Northern Ireland, that there is any semblance of a nation emerging. Deputy Haughey says——

The Deputy should refer to the Taoiseach as the Taoiseach.

My apologies, but the Taoiseach tells us now that those people who regard their traditions as being far removed from ours would be surprised at the lengths to which we are prepared to go to give guarantees and assurances to protect and safeguard their interests and traditions. That is nothing but political hooey. There is not any indication either from within the Republic or from within political attitudes in the Republic and particularly from within the Government party of 83 Deputies that there is any such generosity. The Taoiseach cannot even bring in family planning regulations under the Family Planning Act because to do so would upset the susceptibilities of Deputy Gibbons and a few others in his party. In this situation the Taoiseach dare not do anything about the elementary subject of contraception. Who do we think we are codding in that context?

We may have disagreed in some instances with what has been written by Mr. Bruce Arnold in relation to Northern Ireland but it must be said to his credit that in an article in the Irish Independent on 12 May, 1979 he wrote, referring to the Sunningdale agreement, that while it was not in any way perfect and while it created a wobbly platform for the Government that had been led by Brian Faulkner, it brought into being what had been regarded previously as totally unacceptable and that it brought this in against the background of much greater political upheaval and shock to the system in Northern Ireland than was the case during the period of office of Merlyn Rees and Roy Mason. However, all of that is gone by the board, and for the first time in the period 1970 to 1980 it appears that on the Fine Gael side there is a general tacit support for power sharing, though the confusion in the mind of Deputy FitzGerald on the question of federation or of confederation is entirely irrelevant. There is an unequivocal attitude internally in the Labour Party on that issue. On a recent visit to Northern Ireland I met with representatives of the different communities there and I found that the one subject they are prepared to talk about is power sharing. Though that concept is not particularly welcome to many elements up there, it is not totally repugnant to them. But all of that has gone by the board so far as Fianna Fáil are concerned. Deputy Lynch has finally been buried unceremoniously, and the burial started in Fermoy with a speech by Deputy Síle de Valera.

The real tragedy of this is that the Taoiseach who is a highly sophisticated and intelligent political practitioner in relation both to the south and to the north knows the reality. He knows that much of the nonsense he talks in relation to Northern Ireland and that a good deal of the rhetoric which abounds in his backbenches is very different from the reality. I call on him to give leadership in this situation. It will be difficult to give the real leadership that is necessary because the Taoiseach is dependent on at least a dozen people in his backbenches who are ultimate solution men. There is a residue of opinion in Irish politics to the effect that if the unionists do not agree with us and if we have them at the ultimate negotiation table, we may not merely have to bomb them into an all-Ireland republic but we may have to shoot them in. There is a substantial residue of opinion that suggests that the unionists have no right relative to the rest of the population of the country. Having been in this House for 12 years, during which time I have served on various committees with the Taoiseach, I am aware of his economic capacity, for instance, and I know that he is capable of much more distinct, succinct and objective leadership on the question of Northern Ireland than he is prepared to put forward within his party.

While I was in Northern Ireland recently I was surprised at the large number of people I met who expressed a high regard for the work that has been done by the Taoiseach after only five months in office in relation to national security, in relation to the Border. These people were impressed by the meetings they had with the Taoiseach on that question. When we discount the sort of nonsense that we have had today from Deputy Blaney, the actions of the Taoiseach in regard to border security have been co-operative and have been held in considerable esteem by people in Northern Ireland. I was very pleased to hear that, but I am extremely concerned that there should be a reversion on the part of the Taoiseach to the old cautious attitude of the policy of his party of the thirties and forties. This was not the policy of either Deputy Lynch or of the late Deputy Lemass but the policy that there must be ultimate direct negotiations between Dublin and Westminister, that the blot of legislation must be removed and that whether the unionists like it or not, they are coming in with us. This is the old former Deputy Des Foley type of republicanism that we had when that gentleman was a Member of this House.

What, then, are we left with? We are left with a situation in which all the thrust of Government policy should be by way of an endeavour to impress on the British Prime Minister and on the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland the need to put a great deal more flesh and bone and a great deal more mutual tolerance in the proposals which will come in the White Paper and which will subsequently appear in the Queen's speech next November. We shall have to push the British Prime Minister yet again on this question. Certainly, the leader of my party, in his discussions with Mr. Atkins, pushed very, very hard in that connection, saying to him "Power sharing —and it may be a different form of power sharing than hithertofore was the experience—is on". It may be a bitter pill for the political representatives of the minority in Northern Ireland to have to accept just that, without the formula of the so-called Irish dimension. When you boil it all down, what does an Irish dimension really mean? We live in Ireland; we work in Ireland; we die in Ireland; we communicate North and South in Ireland—those of us who bother to do so. That is an Irish dimension. We savour joint economic co-operation, North and South. That is an Irish dimension.

Why must we drive ourselves into a political tizzie at this stage in the Republic—and, indeed, the political representatives of the minority in Northern Ireland—having to have this lovely book of words with a formula in gold vellum on the Taoiseach's notepaper saying "There is your Irish dimension"? Is it really the be-all and end-all of the economic and social progress of Northern Ireland and the Republic? I met, in Northern Ireland—and I meet them quite regularly—the trade union officials and the senior representatives of the Northern Ireland committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. I meet political representatives, other than the SDLP, who want a devolved, internal, administrative structure, acceptable, in so far as it can possibly be found to be acceptable, between the two minorities or between the majority and minority in Northern Ireland. They both have to swallow a lot of bile and aspirations and a lot of their much vaunted policy documents and get around the table again in an administrative, executive, structure in Northern Ireland. That can be done. I am quite certain that the British Government are prepared to give impetus in that direction but it needs some encouragement from the Irish Government.

If the SDLP have to face a situation of having a new power-sharing structure advanced in the British White Paper and in the Queen's speech later in the year and if they have to face into elections in May 1981, they are going to have to make that choice. I, personally, as an Irish politician in the Republic, am not going to tell them what choice to make, nor am I going to hold out to them false hopes about this great hosannah of a new Irish national unit within my lifetime. I cannot do that. I do not believe that it is within my competence or power or optimism in my mid-forties to say that I can give them that assurance, therefore that they should abstain from those elections next May, not bother, pull back, let the Alliance Party take their place, or somebody else. I have to say to the political representatives of the minority in Northern Ireland that if it is one step along the long road to the lessening of tensions in Northern Ireland, to a situation where there will be fewer people killed and fewer people injured, well then, that is a step in the right direction, even if it is only a small step. I would very strongly divest from that overtones of national unity, overtones and undertones of Irish dimensions and so on. That will not lessen the Irishness and the aspirations of anybody who holds these in that prospect. This is the central point I make in this House today. The Taoiseach should seriously reconsider that as the approach of the Government itself.

There is, of course, the other scenario. There is the scenario that relations will remain at a standstill with the United Kingdom and then, coming up to the middle of next year, relations might get frostier and frostier. The Taoiseach might provoke a confrontation with Mrs. Thatcher. He will emerge as a republican knight in shining armour. He will be in great fettle for a General Election. The Irish people will resoundingly tell Mrs. Thatcher how to get off our backs and the Taoiseach will, of course, have a magnificent election platform on which he can go down even to Cork and speak to the republicans of Cork city. That, of course, is easy—no problem. It can be done. The scenario can be worked out and perhaps one can have an election, using that as a valuable and useful tool to be returned to office. Of course, it is no advance on the situation in Northern Ireland. It is the people of Northern Ireland who should be our first and prime concern and anything that we can do to assist the people of that area in emerging into a situation of reconciliation and conciliation, should be done.

The Taoiseach let himself down this morning—and I conclude on this note—when he said:

We seek an arrangement whereby all Irishmen, no matter what their traditions, would manage the affairs of this island without British participation but with active British interest and goodwill.

Translated, that means British withdrawal under another name. The Irish public, Irish politicians of Government and Opposition and the Irish media have become quite expert at translating the real intent behind that kind of sentence. That is the kind of sentence which a British Foreign Office person becomes adept at translating. When Mr. Atkins's staff above in Stormont Castle read this, they can translate it, also, by saying "This is the other version, his recycled version of British withdrawal". Apart from anything else, it is insulting to economic, social and political intelligence.

The Taoiseach knows perfectly well that there are tens, thousands and millions of pounds of British investment in the Republic of Ireland. Let us be honest and ask the British industrialists and the British multi-nationals and the British citizens who are going to get their votes for the next General Election, not to participate in Irish affairs in the Twenty-Six Counties. Do that just for starters and you will see the response you will get. Come out to Dun Laoghaire and I will introduce you to the British Rail boatmen who will promptly float you off the west pier into political oblivion if you want to start that kind of nonsense. That kind of sentence should not have been put in. I do not know who put it in—perhaps Anthony Cronin.

The names of people outside the House should not be mentioned. The Deputy has a minute to conclude.

I conclude by saying to the Taoiseach that the whole thrust of his endeavour in the next month or two should be to try to shift the British White Paper on to a more amenable, a more co-operative, a more jointly acceptable approach in Northern Ireland, particularly between the SDLP and their Unionist counterparts. If he does that, he will be doing a good day's work. He will earn more respect and more thanks. In the process, he has nothing to fear at all from his backbenchers. When I confidently predicted that he would be elected Taoiseach, assuring the media that he would be elected—and I happened to be right at the time—many of the Fianna Fáil backbenchers said "He is magic and he can solve the situation in Northern Ireland". The Taoiseach should do a little bit of magic now by again talking to the British Prime Minister in a different tone, in a different context. With a new power sharing, devolved, political structure in Northern Ireland, I think there will be hope and I think there will be participation by the SDLP in it. They may get an offer which they could not refuse, as the alternative might be far grimmer for them if they were to refuse. The Unionists might get an offer which they cannot refuse, because the alternatives for them are direct rule, economic and political stagnation, many further massive cuts in Northern Ireland. They may be anxious to get in and try to restore economic and social progress in Northern Ireland. I thank the Chair for being so co-operative in this debate and for arranging with the Whips a debate which gave equal opportunity to all sides.

I have never spoken in either House on the question of Northern Ireland and if my father had not been given 48 hours' notice in 1940 to leave the North I might never have had an opportunity to do so. I could be in the position of Austin Curry sitting in the gallery watching somebody else speak on my behalf in this House. I speak about this question with a lot of emotion that is embedded in me from the time I can remember, but I do not want that part of me to cloud what is a specific report by the Taoiseach of our sovereign Republic to this democratic House on the progress made during talks with the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom in relation to a number of matters of which this is only one.

To add more words to the record of this House in general terms on the question of the North would not be constructive at this stage. Therefore, I want to try as far as I can and on behalf of the Labour Party to reply specifically to the report the Taoiseach gave the House of his meeting with Mrs. Thatcher. We should set out the context of that meeting clearly. It was widely publicised in advance and it took place a short time before, we anticipate, the British Government, of which she is head, publish proposals for the working of the Six Counties. The proposals in the process of being formulated by the British Government are a response to two major problems on this island—the continuing savage violence and the dramatic economic and social decline of the people living in that part of the island.

The Leader of the Labour Party stated clearly in response to the Taoiseach's speech the areas where we are in agreement. We agree that there can be no return to the Stormont-type solution. In agreeing with that, we accept—and I personally accept—that the 60 years of Stormont were undoubtedly a political failure and that there can be no return down that road. Secondly, we are fully and wholly committed to the unity of the Irish people, a unity, in the words of Connolly, of hearts and minds as distinct from some sort of territorial green man, a genuine and lasting unity of the Irish people. On that we are agreed. Thirdly, we are agreed on the existence today of an Irish dimension in any form of solution that will evolve in Northern Ireland. As Deputy Cluskey said, that dimension is already there and was already referred to in the context—unfortunately it is the one area where there is a dimension—of security operations between our Government and the British Government. It cannot be said that there is not an Irish dimension because it already exists.

If we agree on that, on what do we disagree? We are agreed on the objective to which we would like to take this nation for whom we have a democratic mandate, but we disagree on the methods, procedures and the way in which those objectives can be achieved. We have a problem with our disagreement, not that we do not have proposals, methods or systems of reaching our goal, but our problem is that we simply do not know what the Taoiseach's proposals for interim steps are, may be, or even if he has any. He assured us and everybody else that he will be imaginative and flexible to a surprising degree, but we do not have the slightest idea how. I have no doubt about his commitment to Irish unity or about his ability to be imaginative or flexible but in this specific regard, on the eve of the British Government proposals, we do not have the slightest idea what his proposals might be. With due respect, I do not think there is a single Fianna Fáil Deputy who has any greater knowledge than we do. That is the problem.

We seem to know what he ruled out but we cannot be specific because regrettably what the Taoiseach offered today by way of a day's debate on Northern Ireland and his own speech reporting on his meeting with the British Prime Minister, leaves us no better informed. Even if we were in agreement with some of his proposals, we could not offer him the support of the Labour Party in the interest of securing the success of those proposals on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland. We cannot even offer whatever help our voices might add to his proposals, because we do not know them.

Deputy Blaney talked about the reality and the problems of Northern Ireland today and how he, as a northerner, felt there was some sense of academic debate going on, some sense of distance from the cold face of what is happening in the North. We are not engaged in an academic debate nor are we engaged in theorising about long-term solutions. We know just how urgent this problem is. Those of us who have families in the North, or who have lost members of our family in the North, know and we in the Labour movement, through the trade union movement which daily has to confront the reality of the disintegration of certain parts of that economy, caused in part by continuing violence, know that it is urgent. Deputy Cluskey said clearly in his speech that the prospects for Northern Ireland in the short-term, in the absence of any significant change in the form of Government in that part of Ireland, are particularly gloomy. The existence in statistical terms of a province which is poor, underdeveloped and badly administered by a central Government in London has been clearly demonstrated in a number of studies. If there is not a solution forthcoming which can be seen to and made to work, those problems will not go away but will get worse. They will become the most fertile seedbed for the men of violence, who not only do not see a mandate from the ballot box but have openly and consistently despised it.

There is a very dangerous dimension in a refusal to make proposals which could possibly turn about the continued decline of Northern Ireland socially and economically because it might in some way undermine internal political support either within the Fianna Fáil Oireachtas Party or in certain geographical sectors. I formally urge the Taoiseach not to allow these kinds of considerations to prevent him from supporting proposals which could make democracy work in Northern Ireland.

Deputy Blaney is not at present in the House but I wish to assure him through the record of the House that we regard the situation in Northern Ireland as extremely urgent and believe that the process of a solution must be found as quickly as possible. Deputy Blaney talked of, and with the Northern voice correctly dismissed as carrots, the idea of divorce legislation, family planning and other matters to which reference has been made on numerous occasions. Like Deputy O'Donoghue, I would agree with him. I do not believe that, if our society wish to bring in those legislative reforms, we should do so on behalf of one section of the community in Northern Ireland. If it is right that such laws should be enacted under a republican Constitution, it is right that they should be enacted for everybody and not in a sectarian carve-up on grounds of acceptability of different forms of social legislation. Certainly that is not what the Labour Party is about and I used to think it was not what the republican party or republican philosophy were about.

The Northern voice and mentality to which Deputy Blaney referred has a much bigger dimension than its traditional adherence to orthodox social values. It has a skill and a professional and business competence which it has not been allowed to exercise since the institution of direct rule because of the enforced collapse of the last power-sharing Government. That has been to the major detriment of all the people of Northern Ireland, which is now denied the executive involvement of its citizens who have incomparable skills and talents greatly in excess of those possessed by the English, Welsh or Scottish administrators who do not know the people of Ulster and could not have the same commitment to their welfare as the sons and daughters of Ulster itself. During the 13 years when Deputy Blaney was a member of an Irish Cabinet he displayed some of the tradition and skills for which the Northern people have become renowned. I suppose I can be accused of some kind of bias since my own family came originally from that part of the country.

The great tragedy of Northern Ireland today is that the people there are not even being allowed to attempt to solve some of the major social and economic problems confronting them. I agree with Deputy Leonard that people who live on the border, whether in Dundalk or Letterkenny, are equally affected by the cancer in the Six Counties. The skills and enthusiasm of the people of Ulster are excluded from the attempt to solve their own problems. Instead there is direct Government administration from London which takes away democratic responsibility and initiative from the people on the ground. But the situation is certainly compounded when at the head of that Government is the most right-wing Tory to hold that position since Sir Stanley Baldwin in the thirties. She has consistently and savagely chipped away at the social system which in some small way compensated some, if not all, of the people of Northern Ireland for the poverty which the open market economy of Britain has imposed and visited upon them during the past 100 years. That consolation of direct Government is now being eroded with a savagery which will add to the seedbed I mentioned earlier.

We believe the situation is urgent and that it is imperative to seek the beginning of a solution now. The shape, edge and form of that solution must be encouraged, from whatever quarter it may come, and not damped down and closed off by the imposition of formal conditions, barriers or vetos either in Dublin or London.

A dangerous policy development appears to have occurred, not just with the election of the present Taoiseach but with the election of a sister Tory on the other side of the water. Mrs. Thatcher, in response to a suitably timed question on 20 May, said that the constitutional affairs of Northern Ireland were a matter for the people of Northern Ireland, her Government, the British Parliament and no one else. That is a move back from the consistent position which British Governments adopted throughout the seventies, Labour and Tory, in relation to recognition of the Irish dimension and the contribution which the sovereign people of this Republic could offer towards a solution of the problem of Northern Ireland. She has moved back in true fashion on behalf of the Conservative and Unionist Party. That retreat is to be regretted. The other retreat into entrenched positions which will dampen down the emergence of any solution is the retreat that now appears to have been made by the Taoiseach.

I should like to quote what Deputy Cluskey said about the differences the Labour Party have with Fianna Fáil:

The differences arise not about goals or principles but about the practical method of achieving the goals and applying the principles. Specifically, we believe that the immediate requirement for the North is a devolved form of Government involving both communities as of right. Just like Mr. Lynch last September we would not insist at this stage on an institutionalised Irish dimension. We believe that such a formalised Irish dimension is as unacceptable to the Protestant community as a return to majority rule would be to the Catholic community.

I invite the Taoiseach to remove the assessment of his position, if it is wrongly interpreted, that he, like Mrs. Thatcher, has moved back from that position and that he is not prepared to encourage any form of devolved power sharing government in the North unless it has a formalised institutionalised Irish dimension written into it.

We know that the situation is urgent and that it is causing enormous pain, suffering and death. We do not believe that the Taoiseach has the moral right or the support of the majority of the people of this State to try to impose such a veto on the people of Northern Ireland. If the Taoiseach does that he does not do it in my name or in the name of the Labour Party. In the course of his address to the House the Taoiseach stated:

I have been criticised on the basis that I have dismissed, out of hand, any possible solution that might emerge from that conference.

He was referring to the Atkins conference. The Taoiseach continued:

That criticism is not valid.

I invite the Taoiseach, in the course of his reply, to put on the record of the House the reasons why he can say such a criticism is not valid. If he can demonstrate that it is not valid and that he is not dismissing such proposals but is adopting the position similar to that of the former Taoiseach and leader of Fianna Fáil then I will withdraw the criticism I made. All the evidence, the leaked proposals, the press comments and inspired statements, along with the specific ones, would suggest that, unfortunately for the people of Northern Ireland, it is a valid criticism. Worse still, the reason why it is a valid criticism is not because he does not support it himself but because those people on his back-benches might not support him and maintain him in his present position.

If that piece of parliamentary criticism is not valid and if I, in the Taoiseach's view, am speaking out of turn, or ill-informed, I will be first to welcome being corrected by the Taoiseach. However, the last leader of Fianna Fáil who ventured to state on the radio that he was not looking for such a formalised Irish dimension as a pre-condition to a system of devolved Government to which the minority community in Northern Ireland would give its support was deposed within months of saying that. He was deposed in a series of cleverly orchestrated parliamentary raids. A new man occupies the position of Taoiseach because he created the impression that the approach would be different. He created the impression that it would not be the approach of Deputy Jack Lynch who was then Taoiseach. Just enough Members of Fianna Fáil decided to go along with that. The then Taoiseach was forced to resign, having consistently said he would not do so because it would be damaging to the interests of the country having regard to the fact that we held the presidency of the EEC.

There is an easy way the Taoiseach can dispense with the arguments I have put forward. He can clarify for my benefit, for that of the Labour Party, the Fine Gael Party, of Deputy Blaney and Fianna Fáil Deputies, what exactly is his Northern policy. There is another area I should like him to clarify. At his press conference, in the course of the communique issued and his speech today the Taoiseach indicated that because of the visit to the British Prime Minister there would be a new era of political co-operation between the UK Government and our Government. The Taoiseach told us this morning:

I would like to direct attention to certain aspects of the communique. Firstly, there is the decision to meet regularly and develop a closer political co-operation. This is a new dimension in Anglo-Irish relations. It is something we intend to make important and significant.

We already have considerable political co-operation with the British Government. Deputy Blaney went so far as to describe it as collaboration. I am not describing the Taoiseach as a collaborator. Deputy Blaney put that reference on the record of the House; but I am aware of political co-operation in areas such as the maintenance of Britain's racialist immigration laws. I am aware of political co-operation in relation to the facilitation of people in and out of the States without requirement to passports or visas, and there is considerable political co-operation in relation to the EEC generally. However, I am not aware of the form this new dimension in Anglo-Irish relations might take and how the Taoiseach intends to make it "important and significant". To have political co-operation there is a need to co-operate with somebody on the other side. At present on the other side of the Irish Sea occupying No. 10 Downing Street is a right-wing hysterical Tory Prime Minister who has considerably raised the temperature of international——

I do not think the word "hysterical" should be used.

In deference to the Chair I will withdraw that remark and describe her as a right-wing Iron Maiden, a description which, I am given to understand, she takes particular delight in.

It is fair enough so long as we treat them as politicians and refer to them in a manner we would like them to refer to us.

It is significant that she takes delight in the phrase "Iron Maiden" and its warlike connotations. Since coming to office she has added considerably to those voices of international leaders who would rather see an increase in confrontation around the world than an increase in détante. She has, with a certain degree of Tory logic, applied the same principles of confrontation internationally that she has applied among the classes in Britain. In relation to the Olympic games, East-West relations and her own country's perceived role in the EEC we have a tough, hardnosed, right-wing Iron Maiden British Prime Minister. That is the sovereign choice of the British people which they are fully entitled to make.

We had a statement made today that this new dimension in Anglo-Irish relations will become more important and significant. I would like the Taoiseach in his reply to spell out in what way it will be more important and in what manner it will be more significant. Specifically, in the area of political co-operation, does it mean that we would follow more formally the foreign policy of the British Government acting jointly as a unit within the Community of Nine in terms of getting common positions ahead of the political co-operation meetings of the nine member states? Specifically having regard to the British Prime Minister's overall commitment to defence expenditure generally and her enthusiastic espousal of NATO, does it mean that political co-operation, in the new dimension the Taoiseach assures us now exists between Downing Street and Merrion Street, will take the form of the Republic of Ireland abandoning its traditional neutrality and formally joining NATO? That question requires to be answered because the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Lenihan, in a radio programme two weeks ago in relation to the decision taken by the EEC Council of Foreign Ministers on the question of Irish and EEC participation in the Moscow Olympics, stated from Venice that on that issue the Nine had taken a decision in which seven countries supported the boycott and two adopted a neutral position. We naturally assumed that since we are the only formally neutral State in the EEC we would be one of those countries. That was not the case. The neutral position was adopted by France and Denmark. Two out of nine leaves seven and we were with the other seven.

I should like to ask the Taoiseach was that some kind of forerunner of the kind of political co-operation that we can anticipate in this new dimension in Anglo-Irish relations? It is time to try to put some substance into the shadow or strip the shadow away from the substance. The Taoiseach has an enormous democratic responsibility to inform the House—whatever he does in his own party and whatever blank cheques they are prepared to give him is their affair—not to betray confidences, not to give us access to the confidentiality of private meetings but to tell us what he is at in relation to Northern Ireland. Nobody yet knows how we get from A to Z on the journey from the present position on this island to the ultimate aspiration on which all sides of the House are agreed. We are all republicans in Leinster House. Nobody has a monopoly on that political title or label. We are all agreed on Irish unity. We are all agreed on the Irish dimension and we all believe in the democratic process.

We in the Labour Party know how we want to move step by step, inch by inch along that difficult road. Fine Gael know how they want to move, as do the SDLP and other parties but the only one party who do not know how they will move or how they want to move are Fianna Fáil. Perhaps they do and, if so, the Leader of that party who happens to be Taoiseach of the State is not prepared to tell us. The continued violence in the North, loss of life and decline of economic and social conditions, not only affect the people in the North directly but all of us as Deputies O'Hanlon and Leonard mentioned, as was right for them to do as they represent Border constituencies. It affects all of us because of the financial resources we have to allocate in order to maintain security forces at an artificially high level in order to deal with the question of violence that has occurred from the political failure of the present structure in the Six Counties.

This problem is extremely urgent and we must move to deal with it without delay and without allowing internal party political considerations, if there be any, and I say that advisedly, to prevent us from encouraging, as the former leader of Fianna Fáil did, an interim solution that would be part of the evolving process of a solution to Northern Ireland. We cannot, as Deputy Síle de Valera would like, suspend 60 years of history and say today is 1980 and yesterday was 1920 and the intervening 60 years have disappeared and the mistake made in 1920 can be simply erased and rectified by going back to that situation and continuing on from there. Sixty years of history have elapsed. Sixty years of economic and social development have evolved in that time. The solutions in practical and methodological terms that were open in 1920 do not now arise as serious options. Unfortunately they belong, though people are still somewhat seduced by them, to the mythology of the false republicanism of the majority party in this State.

People on the ground in the North of Ireland and the political party which have won the majority support of the minority community have consistently committed themselves to interim solutions. The very evolution of the SDLP was concerned with solving human and social problems as they arose there and then on the ground and not waiting for some dawn of history to resolve all the problems, in the interim abstaining from Stormont and refusing to participate in any way in the political process.

On behalf of the Labour Party I shall conclude by again simply and quietly asking the Taoiseach to refute the validity of the criticism which he claims has been made regarding his position on interim solutions. In so doing I want him to indicate clearly what is his policy now. I know he is highly imaginative and creative but I do not really want an imaginative or creative response. I simply want the facts: what is he at? What is he proposing? How does he propose to do it? When will he be doing it and in what way?—in other words, the nuts and bolts of Fianna Fáil's policy on Northern Ireland.

In designing such a policy we would respectfully add that the Taoiseach might consider the four points set out by the leader of the Labour Party, Deputy Cluskey. I shall put them again clearly on the record of this House and in so doing reiterate our fundamental concern, as it was Connolly's fundamental concern, with the welfare of the Irish people, with the aspirations they have, with their physical environment and the security afforded them for their jobs, homes and families because, like Connolly, Ireland without its people means nothing to the Labour Party. Indeed we are just as concerned for those Unionists in the Shankill who have suffered the deprivation of Right-Wing Unionism since 1920 and have lived in appalling housing conditions, just as appalling as those their fellow Catholic brethren have endured on the Falls Road. We believe also that the advent of members of the minority community into a power-sharing Executive would go a long way towards attempting to alleviate those problems.

We want, and propose, first, the introduction of an economic and social development programme for Northern Ireland geared to bridging the gap between the Province and the rest of the United Kingdom; secondly, the creation of a genuine regional development plan in the Republic, with particular emphasis on the needs of the Connaught/Ulster regions and the Border counties. Third, we propose the establishment of a common energy programme for the whole island with appropriate grid arrangements and, fourthly, the mounting of a joint Irish/United Kingdom political initiative within the Community aimed at attaining a real breakthrough on regional policy and regional fund financing. Those four points, added to the Government's own policy, interim steps towards a solution, would go a long way down the road towards restoring to this island some measure of peace and justice.

At the outset I must say I was disappointed with the content of the Taoiseach's speech. I recognise that the sentiments of the speech are ones we could accept. If those sentiments are to be carried through to policy documents, then there is a chance for the bi-partisan approach in this House to continue, and I believe that approach is fundamental to the whole future of the Irish nation, North and South, Catholic and Protestant, Nationalist and Unionist. But I am not satisfied that Deputy Haughey has the courage or determination to see the unity of Ireland as being paramount over the unity of his own party. Not once during the whole of his speech did he refer to the difficulties of Northern Ireland. The tenor of his speech was one of complete waffle, jargon of a pious nature, talking about a dream that will never come true, to use the Taoiseach's own words when he was speaking recently at a Fianna Fáil meeting in Limerick, the dream of a United Ireland. It is about time we stopped dreaming and faced the realities confronting us in this island. After ten years, 2,000 dead, 20,000 maimed, millions of pounds worth of property destroyed, hatred having been burned into the hearts of different communities in the North of Ireland, it is not good enough that the Taoiseach of this part of Ireland—the Taoiseach who in his first presidential address to his party said that Irish unity would be his top priority—should present an account of a meeting between himself and the British Prime Minister so lacking in content. The mountain has become a mouse. It is all ado about nothing.

The reality is this. This party see the Northern Ireland conflict as it is; the Labour Party see the Northern Ireland conflict as it is and I believe, if my vibrations are right, that the majority of the Fianna Fáil Party in this House see the conflict of Northern Ireland as it is. But, regrettably, for some unexplained reason—and I have my suspicions—the Taoiseach has not the courage to jettison those Mickey Mouse politicians whose contribution to the divisions of the Irish people have done more to divide Catholic and Protestant in the North of Ireland, to keep the two communities fighting in the North of Ireland, than the bombs and bullets of the Provisional IRA. The nonsense some of them speak. The hypocrisy of some of them who masquerade before decent, honest to goodness Irish people supporting the Fianna Fáil Party and believing that the Fianna Fáil Party are the party which can deliver to them Irish unity and increased prosperity. Each one of them take a pledge before their constitutency convention at a general election that they will honour the pledge of their founder leaders—a Gaelic-speaking Ireland and the unity of Ireland. They have fooled and hoodwinked their own supporters. I do not know how they got away with it so successfully. Were we just to look at the Fianna Fáil Party in its nakedness, we would see that its two cornerstones are a Gaelic-speaking Ireland and the unity of Ireland. On the Gaelic-speaking Ireland it is sufficient for me to say that in this national Parliament after 50 years, 40 of which were under Fianna Fáil administration, the native language has to be translated into a foreign language for the benefit of the natives in this Parliament.

That has been the success of Fianna Fáil who came into being on one of those cornerstones. Let me remind them that their progress on Irish unity has been just as disastrous. They fooled people into the belief that they and they alone had the divine right to unite the Irish people. Let us take a look at their record.

Fianna Fáil came into office in 1932 and immediately decided to fight an economic was against Britain, an economic war that had damn all to do with economic planning but which was based on a narrow, bigoted nationalism with the slogan "Burn everything English except their coal". We lost the Economic War.

Between 1922 and 1932, the Partition about which Deputy Blaney talked was accepted by this Parliament without discussion or a vote—the partition of Ireland during the Treaty Debate was mentioned only once by an obscure TD whose name I have long forgotten. It was not the issue. In those days the issue was whether we should continue to swear loyalty to King George V. That and that alone divided us into a civil war. Irish unity, to the party who have been talking about it since their foundation, meant civil war, an economic war, a Constitution in 1937 which now protects people wanted for murder in this island, which allows people wanted for serious crimes to walk the streets of this part of Ireland free. That has been Fianna Fáil's contribution to Irish unity.

Every policy and every Act they have introduced into this House has been totally inconsistent with the unity they speak of. Not one budget did they introduce which made a contribution to Irish unity. Of all the billions of pounds voted in this House I have not noticed one shilling under the heading "Northern Ireland". Indeed, as one who has a large family and who has paid more than average attention to talking to the people of Northern Ireland I find it disgraceful to have to admit in this Parliament that I have to pay out of my own pocket because there is not the slightest facility to reimburse out of pocket expenses to anyone from here who wants to go north of the Border to talk to people of a different tradition.

That is not the case if we go abroad. We can attend the European Parliament, the Council of Europe, Inter-Parliamentary Union meetings, we can travel between Dublin and our constituencies, having had overnight accommodation in Dublin, but if I want to make a telephone call to someone in Belfast, unless I use a private telephone I have to pay the cost. Only yesterday I sought out a colleague in Newry, I put through a person-to-person call to try to find him, and I was told I would have to pay 67p. I was asking for his opinion on how the traditions of Ireland could be brought together.

That is the track record of the party who profess to be working for Irish unity. They have been talking about Irish unity since 1932. They have been using brass bands, pipe bands, torchlight processions, every trick in the book, but is it Irish unity they were talking about? What about the speeches of Eamon deValera, of Deputy McEllistrim, of Deputy Loughnane? Were they all aimed at Irish unity or have they a more sinister meaning? I leave the House to draw its own conclusions.

When this State was founded the division between North and South was a political one but there was free movement of people living in Border areas. People in Donegal could go to sell their produce in Derry or Tyrone, people in Fermanagh could go to Sligo to sell their wares and produce, but the Economic War of Fianna Fáil put a stop to all that. It deprived people along the Border, on both sides, of the God-given right to deal with one another, to communicate with one another. In my native parish of Clonleigh in County Donegal, the Border which divided us was nuisance to both Catholics and Protestants. It was a hindrance to people living on both sides of the Border involved in the commercial life of their localities. They were thinking of getting rid of it, but when Fianna Fáil came into office in 1932 it became copperfastened. For ten years before 1932 the Border was just a line on a map, but after 1932 every policy, every piece of legislation introduced by Fianna Fáil has been inconsistent and totally contradictory of the pious pledge on the unity of Ireland.

I spoke to a republican in Belfast a couple of nights ago, a man who had spent two-and-a-half years in internment. I asked him how his family were doing. He told me one is now studying in Queen's University. He said: "If I were part of the South I could not afford that. I am on the dole". When the State was founded, a million people would not join a united Ireland simply because their politics was different. Now, Fianna Fáil have created economic differences and we have a million people north of the Border who do not want to join us for political reasons but also for economic reasons. The one million people in 1922 who wanted to come with us would now say no. They can buy a washing machine for four-fifths of the price they would pay for it here. A motor car costs them 20 per cent less. The roads they drive on are better than ours. When they send their children to school they have free education. If members of their families go sick they have free hospitalisation. The crowning thing is that this republican party who claim to have all the answers for the achievement of Irish unity ran us into the EMS without the slightest thought about the difficulties it would present in communications between us and the North, particularly between those living in Border areas.

The Belfast republican I mentioned earlier told me: "It is a month since I was in Donegal and I have a £5 note which nobody will take from me in Belfast". Fianna Fáil have made Irish money foreign currency in Northern Ireland. Irish money is now foreign currency in Derry, Antrim, Down, Fermanagh, Armagh and Tyrone. It is not the Unionists who did this, it is not the British who did it. It is the super-republicans, the gang who say "We are the true republicans". That means there are other types of republicans but Fianna Fáil are the super republicans, the true Irish, the super Irish.

Deputy Allen, now sitting beside the Taoiseach, once upon a time wondered "Whatever got into me, how was I so obsessed by an evil spirit that I should go North and talk to Protestant people in the Shankill Road", as if they were third, fourth or fifth class Irish people. Deputy Allen, the Minister of State, is one of the people to whom I have referred—one of the super republicans who stand in front of a Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis and say: "I take a party pledge and that is that I will play my part in trying to unite the Irish people". I wonder if the Minister of State knows the way to Belfast? Has he ever bought a ticket for the Enterprise?

He was there last week.

I wonder how many times he has spoken to Northern Protestants?

I was at Balmoral last week.

That is only because duty took the Minister to the North.

Deputy Allen is not under debate.

I wish to differ with the Chair.

I ask the Deputy to stay on the debate. Surely it is wide enough. I have given the Deputy plenty of latitude and if he does not stay on the debate before the House——

I am scrutinising the behaviour of every person elected to the Fianna Fáil Party who represent this country now because they and they alone are responsible for bringing the two parts of Ireland together, for uniting the Irish people. Deputy Allen is the only Deputy here in the House—I do not know young Deputy Aylward well enough.

There must be something wrong with the Deputy's eyesight.

There is plenty of scope in this debate without criticising any Member of the House.

I am including them.

The Deputy should not do that. There is plenty of scope in the debate without attacking people all around the place.

This Government are interested only in the unity of Fianna Fáil and Irish unity is not really an issue. What is really at issue is electoral support and re-election to government. I have great respect for the Taoiseach as a person. I believe he may want to do what is right but I must remember what one of my friends in Belfast said the other evening: "What does Charlie Haughey mean to the people of Northern Ireland?" Our conversation was between a Loyalist and the republican to whom I referred.

Deputy Haughey was elected to this House in 1957. He became a junior Minister in 1959 and a Cabinet Minister in 1961. I will not refer to the early part of the seventies. He was a Minister for 13 years, he was a backbencher and now he is Taoiseach. He is not known for his interest in Northern Ireland. This may be harsh criticism but I am telling the House the way the Taoseach is seen in Northern Ireland.

He is seen also as having failed in addition to the people before him for not communicating with the people of Northern Ireland, for not showing what the people of this part of Ireland feel about the North. We spend millions of pounds on the Gaeltacht—on about 20,000 people—and it is only right that we should spend money to retain the culture of the people in that area. However, the Gaeltacht has never been a problem for us. The problem is with regard to Northern Ireland where both communities are at daggers drawn and where there has been political stalemate since the setting up of the State. It is an affront to democracy for a party to say to the Northern people that they would be surprised at the length we would be prepared to go. It is promises, promises, promises. As Deputy White said, the Northern is a hard-headed businessman. He is not interested in promises but he is very interested in performance. The performance of the Taoiseach has done little to bring about Irish unity.

There was no criticism in the Taoiseach's statement of the people who attack and murder Irish people. If we call all those who live on this island Irish, if one group of people from the Northern tradition murder people of another tradition, it is our responsibility if we believe in the unity of Ireland to live up fully to that responsibility. The protection of one million Protestants and 500,000 Catholics in the North of Ireland should be as meaningful and as serious to us as the protection of people who walk the streets of Dublin, Cork, Limerick or Waterford. That is the acid test of facing up to the reality of Irish unity.

I heard Deputy O'Donoghue say that a weak punt gives us export advantages. When Fianna Fáil were arguing about joining the EMS they did not talk about a weak punt. The reverse was the argument—that the possibility would be that sterling would drop and we would have the advantage. If there are advantages in export trade it is in spite of Fianna Fáil, not because of them. Let me make it clear that any party who claim the unity of Ireland as a basic political position cannot follow economic policies that are inconsistent with that even if it means an economic advantage for us. If there is an economic advantage one year there will be a disadvantage another year; if the advantage is ours the Northerners will be disadvantaged.

I wonder what has got into us? I wonder how many people on the Government benches are really interested in Northern Ireland and the affairs of the people there? The hope exists not alone in Fianna Fáil but may even exist in my party that the whole matter will go away. The stand I take is that anyone who believes in Irish nationhood, who believes that Ireland is an island and that the people who live here are Irish with no such thing as first, second, or third-class citizens, who believes that equality of citizenship rests on every person irrespective of the family and community in which he grew up or the Church he attends, must face up to his responsibility. If we are talking about pluraling and extending it to embrace every person, it is time we sat around the table and worked out the logic of our own position. Whatever logic I can see in both Opposition Parties, the position of the Government is illogical.

The EMS was a disaster for our currency. When I spoke to the SDLP executive a month ago I was told I was too harsh in my criticism of the Government. I said: "They are in power all my lifetime and who else do I blame for the mistakes?" When I was told I was dragging politics North of the Border, I said that when I spoke to Irish people I ignored the Border, that I was not a partitionist. When I was told that the EMS might be good, I asked: "Do the people of Newry think it is handy for them to go trading in Dundalk or do the people in Dundalk believe that it is good for them compared with Newry?" The reality then started to appear. In the many years that I have been in public life and on the many occasions I have been asked if I was a Northern or a Southerner, I have always answered: "I am a Northerner." Then some person would ask: "What do you mean by that? Do you have more in common with your Presbyterian friends or the Northern community than you have with the South?" I had not the ready made answer which Deputy Blaney had, that he is like them, because I am not like them. There is a difference, but it is so indefinable that I could not say so.

The thing became a little more clear during the discussions on our entry into the EMS. Nobody was the slightest bit interested when I spoke about the difficulties this would create between the North and the South and between the communities on both sides of the Border. I believed then that not alone did the Government not understand the North but they did not and do not even understand the people who are living in Border areas. They were totally insensitive to this. If they are insensitive to things like that how can they communicate with one million people who are not listening?

The tariff barriers which were built by successive Fianna Fáil Governments between North and South have discriminated against Irish people, not just the Protestant people who did not care whether or not they sold their goods to us, but Nationalist people who had industries north of the Border and who wanted to sell their goods south of the Border. They were discriminated against by the party who profess to be in the true tradition of Tone, Catholic and Protestant united in the common name of Irishmen. The Fianna Fáil Party have talked political nonsense all during their history and have not made any contribution to Irish unity. They have driven us all so far apart that I despair at any thought of Irish unity.

My understanding of Irish unity is that Ireland is a nation of two traditions. We have not been talking about Irish unity but about a Gaelic unity. Parnell said that no man has the right to exclude, that no man has the right to set boundaries to the march of a nation. But that is what Fianna Fáil did when they excluded one million people. Parnell was not talking about Partition, as Fianna Fáil have been doing. He was speaking about Irish people. He was saying to the Protestant people that they have not the right to discriminate.

When we go back a generation earlier we find Tone talking about Catholics and Protestants coming together in the common name of Irishmen, that the forces of the entire nation would have to be brought together to establish one complete Irish identity. Where is the party who walked in the tradition of Tone? When Fianna Fáil next go to Bodenstown, when they next pay tribute to Tone will they say an Act of Contrition because they have misrepresented everything he stood for? Tone does not mean anything to Fianna Fáil. Republicanism, as properly understood, has been confused by them to the extent that it is not acceptable to one million people North of the Border. Why have Fianna Fáil deserted the traditions of Mitchell, Tone and Emmet? After two hundred years the concept of bringing Catholics and Protestants together in the common name of Irishmen has failed. The Fianna Fáil Party have made Republicanism mean something different to what it is was intended to mean in the beginning.

Deputy Quinn said that we are all republicans. I am not. I do not want any tag on to my name. I am Irish and I will settle for that. I want to be proud to be Irish. That will be my contribution. I can see clearly that Unionism will never unite the people of the Northern areas and republicanism will never unite the people of all of Ireland. In spite of the economic advantages for Northern Catholics or Northern Nationalists to remain in the Northern state, it has not changed their politics and it never will. While they might be reluctant to join us for economic reasons, that does not mean they are Unionists or want to be. It is also true that republicanism, no matter how strong our economy becomes, will never change the opinion of one million Protestants North of the Border who do not want to be republicans. The Irish can unite the Irish. That is the tradition in which I walk. Republicans are separating the Irish.

The unity of Ireland is not for debate at this stage. Much as I would like to see it on the agenda it is not there. What is there, is a new initiative for Northern Ireland. We have heard talk about the Irish dimension and of the Government's stand to say that unless we have participation, unless we agree with what is happening up North, we will veto. The full meaning of that, is that if the leader of the Social and Democratic Labour Party, the leader of the Democratic Unionist Party and other Unionist groupings were to come here tomorrow morning with a solution we are saying that we have the right to disagree. We have not that right after our record of failure, our inactivity and our total complacency about the people of Northern Ireland. For too long we have fooled one community into believing that we could bring them into a united Ireland whether by force or by constitutional methods, we have played them in the pond of Irish politics and we have threatened one million people. That has been our contribution, not bringing them together. We have threatened and coerced one million people and we have fooled half a million others. They see that and we had better stop it.

If we believe in peace between Irishmen we must produce a policy in this Parliament, a policy that will not be a Government policy, a Labour policy or a Fine Gael policy but a policy which will be a consensus policy of the three parties. If we do not do that we are not serious about Irish unity. If the Taoiseach puts into practice the policies he talks about in his speech there will be an open door as far as the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party are concerned. The Taoiseach should see that the mickey mouse people in his backbenchers are insignificant in the whole race and that the price he has to pay to keep them in line is too much in the terms of lives being lost in Northern Ireland, or properties being destroyed, or young people being locked up in jail. We must produce a policy here that will speak clearly with one voice and repeat it so often that every Loyalist in the North will clearly understand what we are talking about. If Deputy Blaney wishes to come in here and make a personal statement, or if someone wants to go off half cocked to a different constituency let it be so but the three parties should see what we have in common so that we can make a contribution to the North.

The despairing thing about all this is that so long as we maintain the positions we have now and continue to explore them, so long will the Protestant people of the North resist any movement by the Catholic people to come into Government. We are making it impossible for the two communities in the North to come together unless we follow policies which are conducive to Irish unity, unless we follow policies which will take into account the complexities of Northern Ireland, unless we follow policies that will recognise the divisions in Northern Ireland and unless we recognise the people in the North who better understand the problems and who have a greater interest in finding solutions than we have. We must allow these people to be our negotiators, to negotiate terms which are fair to all sides and we must then support them.

The weakness of our position is that we have not got the courage to spell out the true position of the people on this side of the Border. The Irish dimension about which so many people talk is first of all an understanding between both Irish communities North of the Border and then an understanding between them and us. Anyone who feels that unless there is an institutionalised Irish dimension something will not work has very little faith in the two communities in the North, because the Irish dimension has stood the test of time. There is no difficulty in a person from Strabane, Newry, Ballymena or Coleraine saying that he is Irish. They have faith in themselves and they can identify with us. That Irish dimension has stood the test of time and will continue to do so, so there is no need to institutionalise it.

What is paramount to everything else is a settlement North of the Border which has the willing and free consent of both parties. We are not making any contribution towards that end, because the Taoiseach has declined time and time again to spell out our position. On this last appeal by me perhaps the Taoiseach might spell out before the Atkins initiative or the Thatcher initiative on Northern Ireland that we will clearly and unequivocally guarantee support and recognise and co-operate with any agreement freely entered into by both communities in the North. That would put the minority negotiators in a strong position. The minority negotiators are in a strong position when they can say that they can negotiate something which the British Government cannot negotiate and which the majority in Northern Ireland cannot negotiate; when they can say that they can negotiate a recognition for a Northern settlement which has been lacking since the foundation of the State. That would be the strength of the minority in the North of Ireland if we say to the majority that we will recognise, co-operate, support and guarantee any agreement which the minority community in Northern Ireland enter into with the majority. That is the Taoiseach's responsibility. The Taoiseach alone has that major responsibility to clearly state this and he would have the support of this party in doing so.

The British Government will have to see in any initiative that it is the Irish who live here now just as it is the Welsh who live in Wales and the Scottish who live in Scotland and their policies which have divided us in the past will have to be a unifying force in the future. The British have not lived up to their responsibility but if we criticise them for it we must also openly acknowledge that we have not lived up to our responsibility either.

The Deputy has two minutes left.

Any new initiative in the North will have to take into consideration the people in H-Block. Will the Taoiseach compassionately appeal, on humanitarian grounds to the British Government to do something about those young men who are blindly destroying themselves in H-Block. I appeal directly to the IRA to get off the backs of the young men in H-Block whom they have misled and encouraged to break the law and to stop using their misery in their disgusting propaganda campaign. No one with any sense of responsibility will support the IRA's calculated and stupid protest. No fairminded person would lend his name to being used by an organisation which so ruthlessly murders fellow human beings in cold blood and then issues statements justifying those actions. If there was less nonsense by the Provos there would be greater evidence of compassion on the part of all for the prisoners. The Provos are no longer anti-British. Their campaign is now anti-Irish.

Young men who are now caught up in the web of violence and crime should stop and ask themselves what are they achieving and what is the cost. I ask them to reappraise their positions and recognise the futility of their deeds. What would Ireland be like if the majority in both communities supported violence? What price would we have to pay if civil war broke out and lasted until one side was defeated? Would Ireland be a better place to live in if fathers and mothers were taken from families, if husbands and wives were taken away and if sons and daughters were taken away. Ireland would not be a better place to live in if any of my children were taken from me. I do not think that Ireland would be a better place for my family to live in if I were taken from them. The way forward is not by violence.

The Deputy's time is up.

I state to the British Government that if the claims are the right to wear non-prison clothes, the right of association and the weekly visit, please think on the feelings of the father, mothers, wives, brothers and sisters of those who punish themselves in such penal ways. There must be a solution to this problem. I am not on the side of the Provisional IRA, far from it. I detest everything they stand for, but I know the families of some young boys who are punishing themselves beyond endurance.

World developments over the last six to 12 months in particular have reminded us, in a way that perhaps we had taken for granted up to this, of how insecure is the basis of peace for which we all live and how interdependent we are economically and politically. Looking at this problem, which has been a continuing one since the North of Ireland was established as a separate entity, we are reminded of how the general international climate must be seen as a backdrop when we try to promote a solution to what has been up to this moment a tragic experience for all in the North of Ireland, has had tragic consequences here also, has affected the relationship between this Government and the British Government and has affected also the potentials that we might have realised were it not for this tragic problem. Everywhere it is realised now that peace is a pre-requisite before any of the other policy objectives we may have on the Northern question, in the international area or any other area can be achieved. In this context we must use every means at our disposal to bring about the basis of this peace, to eradicate the causes of distrust wherever they may be and instead to sow the seeds of understanding, confidence and capacity. If that is true of the international environment it is even more true than ever before of the problem to which this debate is directing itself this afternoon.

On a point of order, I do not like interrupting, but do I take it that the Minister is concluding for the Government?

The Minister is concluding, yes.

Would the Taoiseach agree that it would be in the best interests of this country if he were to avail of at least some of the time that the Minister has for concluding?

The Deputy is now using up the Minister's time.

On a point of order, I hope that I will be allowed the time that Deputy Cluskey has taken from me, but I will deal with some of the points that he has mentioned.

Will he deal with all of the points?

The Deputy is using up the Minister's time.

It would be helpful to deal with it from the point of view of the problem we are approaching now.

It is disgraceful that the Taoiseach again is evading his responsibility.

This is utter rubbish. This is the procedure that has always been followed in these debates.

The reason he has always stated is that he was not allowed the right of reply. He has it now and he is afraid to make use of it.

There have been no interruptions today up to now.

We are all fed up with the PRO game. The responsibility is here.

My reply will be consistent fully with the collective view of the Government as expressed by the Taoiseach and I will represent that view as effectively as I can within my responsibility of Minister for Finance which I believe has a major impact on this whole question.

As the Taoiseach said this morning and previously, the ancestral quarrel encapsulated in the Northern part of this island might seem an irrelevance when set against the wider scene of world tensions and conflicts, but it is not our view that, even in a world of uncertainty, Governments can or should treat with indifference areas of instability which seem small or minor on the world stage, because peace and security are indivisible and concern for peace has never been greater than in recent times. If peace and security are indivisible, it is important to recognise that the causes of international, domestic and regional violence, unfortunately, are also indivisible. Every Government, therefore, must tackle the problems at their roots and also deal with the symptoms. In this regard, when we speak of the North of Ireland we have been looking at the unacceptable symptoms of political instability which are as old as the North of Ireland entity itself. Central to what this Government have been doing at all times and what the Taoiseach reiterated, we must also get at the causes and, above all else, face these causes in a sense of collective, common and determined approach between Governments within the North of Ireland and between North and South of Ireland. They must be faced more urgently and in a more determined capacity than ever before, particularly as they are heightened by the unfavourable international economic climate in which we now live.

It is important to recognise that, whatever be the lack of economic development in the North of Ireland up to the moment, the problems which the people there and we here will face will not be eased in any way by the political developments outside Ireland in this year or the next years or by the economic developments which we have to face together. It makes it all the more important then that we would tackle these problems in a constructive manner, Government to Government, people to people, North to South, recognising that perhaps the old ways cannot ever be repeated, that the old ways of political activity—if such it could be called—in the North of Ireland are totally out of tune and ineffective to deal with the problems that have to be faced, and realising the potential that must be there for all of the people in every part of this island.

If some people in our jurisdiction here feel to a greater or lesser degree isolated from the North of Ireland, let me remind them of some salient facts that will make them realise that we cannot be isolated even if we wish to be. It might well be, as a former leader of the Fine Gael Party and Taoiseach said, that the Irish people were losing the will to unity, and in a sense it may be implied that we were taking a stand-off position from this. If that were so some three or four years ago, it is not and cannot be so now. If we look at it in selfish terms from this vantage point, the massive increases which it has been necessary for this Exchequer to provide in the last couple of years attributable directly to the Northern Ireland problem pose a major problem for this State and this Government. That is if one were to look at it only in selfish terms. In 1969-70 the direct cost attributable to Northern Ireland security was £2 million. In 1975 it was £35 million, last year it had risen to £60 million and in this year it will cost £82 million. Unless all of us acting collectively can effect a meaningful and substantial change of direction in the near future, then the pattern of these increases, which it will be noticed from those figures has escalated even more in the last three or four years than in the previous four or five years, will impose a major and crushing burden on the economic development even of this part of Ireland, if for no other reason than that this Government have a major right, interest and obligation to play an active and leading role in bringing about the beginnings of a solution which will rid us all of these financial burdens, and much more important, which will rid the people of the North of the tragic consequences by which they have been bound over the last ten and indeed the last 60 years.

I have referred only to the direct financial consequences. The indirect, perhaps unquantifiable impact of the situation is even more significant in financial terms through lost opportunities than what I have already related.

It is true to say that in the Republic the sixties and seventies were periods of great change, of significant developments and advances, and perhaps because of our membership of the EEC in particular, periods of successful seizing of new opportunities by our people. In many ways the effect of this has been to transform our economic and social situation. This is the tragedy. The potential of all of us on this island, of all the regions and counties, be it west of the Bann, or north-west in Donegal, or along the Erne catchment regions, or elsewhere, would have been almost boundless if we had been released from the chains of unnatural suspicion and distrust which kept us from co-operating with each other instead of taking the opportunities which were there to be taken.

We could have availed much more of the support of our European partners. We could have done much more to deal with the chronic unemployment which is especially evident in the Border regions. I am thinking particularly of the towns north of the Border on this island. I want to say in passing that I do not under-estimate the problems the previous Government might have had in highlighting these facts for our colleagues in the EEC. I do not know what efforts the Leader of Fine Gael may have made to bring these facts to the notice of his colleagues on the then Council of Ministers. I can appreciate that there may have been problems in getting them across to them. The record shows that whatever efforts he made—and I am not suggesting they were not genuine—must be acknowledged as having been less than successful and effective. The tragedy is that had more been done in the first four years of our membership of the Community to highlight the needs that were there——

Where is the money he got for cross-Border communication? The Minister will not provide it.

Deputy Harte should not interrupt the Minister.

I cannot stand this nonsense. Deputy FitzGerald encouraged cross-Border co-operation in a project between Derry and Donegal and the Minister is not providing the money.

The facts will speak for themselves.

What industry came to Donegal in the past three years?

I will come to the facts and figures in a moment. I said I do not under-estimate the difficulties Deputy FitzGerald may have faced. I have to note the fact that he did not succeed in getting any support from the institutions of the EEC.

He was successful. The Minister did not provide the money and he knows that.

Deputy Harte had his 45 minutes.

I want to keep the record straight.

Notwithstanding that failure to get the facts across to our partners, they have now demonstrated a willingness to support the development which the Taoiseach called for between the British and Irish Governments, and an understanding between North and South. There is a clearly identifiable readiness on the part of our partners, and has been in my experience as Minister for Foreign Affairs, to support us fully in tackling the problem particularly of the Border regions and more particularly the chronically deprived towns north of the Border.

And South.

I should like to give some examples of the difference in the pattern of development between this part of Ireland and the North since we both joined the EEC. In the seventies we saw an average population growth here of about 1½ per cent. We saw net immigration instead of net emigration. These are not matters about which we wish to boast. During the early and middle seventies it was not brought home to our European partners that the chronic unemployment in the North of Ireland would have been even greater but for the continuing drain of emigration about which unfortunately we all know too well.

Is this discussion on the Taoiseach's visit to Mrs. Thatcher or an examination of the National Coalition Government's record?

During the day we had some debate on the economics of the situation.

The economic deprivation we have seen in many parts of the North of Ireland is in many ways the root of symptoms we see in violence. If one wants to deal with those, one also has to tackle the root causes. They have been there to be tackled for some time. Particularly since we joined the European Community, we had a capacity to deal with them. Since this Government took office we have been tackling them and are determined to continue tackling them with a view to providing employment where otherwise it might not be and providing opportunities for work where previously they did not exist.

We have seen other patterns that distinguish the experience here from the experience in the North between 1970 and 1977. Their GDP per head of population grew at an annual rate of about 2.1 per cent in volume terms. Here, in the same period, it grew by at least 3.7 per cent. The rate of unemployment in Northern Ireland during all that period, and particularly since 1975, especially west of the Bann, increased sharply. The employment situation there needs to be seen against the background of the very substantial increase in service employment in the North during the seventies.

Here I want to come to a very important aspect. The growth of the dependency on public expenditure in the North of Ireland does not give any of us any great cause for encouragement at this stage. Public expenditure in the North of Ireland has become particularly important in keeping up even the depressed level of economic activity and of incomes. Total public expenditure there, including transfers, is about two-thirds of the total gross domestic product. Therefore, any cut-back in public expenditure in the North will have a particularly severe impact.

Industrial output has been diminishing. Maintaining even the level we have seen has been largely due to growth in public expenditure. We must all take note of this. The Conservative Government in a 1980, 1981, 1983 and 1984 public expenditure White Paper indicated that henceforth in real terms public expenditure is planned to fall each year in the North of Ireland. If this is part of their commitment, it is evident that there will have to be a totally new approach to the generation of industrial employment which has been falling during all of this period and the maintenance of employment opportunities. This will mean tackling the root cause of the problem to make the area more attractive for industrial investment and for generating new opportunities for people in the North of Ireland.

Public expenditure figures there have been the only basis on which they have been able to maintain even the level of rather stagnant economic activitity which we have seen in the past few years. We are now all faced with a very serious international economic reality.

Is the Minister talking about Donegal or Northern Ireland?

I am talking about Ireland as a whole, but the North of Ireland in particular.

I see a picture of Donegal in the Minister's remarks.

Obviously one has to be aware of certain other realities. The total contribution this year, excluding the cost of the British army in the North and any elements of UK loans there, is conservatively estimated at £1.1 billion. That is the money that has been provided by the British to the North of Ireland, excluding what I mentioned. It happens to be equivalent, roughly, to the contribution of the British Government to the European Community budget which clearly is a matter of major concern to the British Government. We might as well all face certain realities in the light of that. First, there is the reality that if that kind of money—the contributions to the North of Ireland—could be put to better effect, it could help the British Government in facing the problem they have within the EEC at present. Secondly, we might as well face another reality. If the British Government, understandably in a period in which we are anxious to curb public expenditure, look at the very significant amount of this, there is, to say the least, a danger that in curbing that growth one of the areas that will suffer severely unless we take a totally new approach will be the North of Ireland and that the unemployment problems we have seen up to this, if one were to continue on the same political path as has been followed over the past 60 years would become much worse rather than better.

The Minister is talking about Northern Ireland; is he sure he is not talking about Donegal?

An economy that depends to the extent that the North depends at present on a continuing growth of public expenditure, particularly when the tendency of the British Government and all the Governments is to curb the growth of public expenditure, is certainly in a very drastic state. It is for that reason that the approach proposed by the Taoiseach, which has been followed by this Government for a very considerable time, becomes all the more urgent because we cannot, either the people of the North or here or anywhere else, presume it will continue in that pattern having regard to the international economic environment that we must all accept as reality at this stage.

Could we afford to take over that economy?

This brings me to an essential point that I should like to mention. There has been a predilection on the part of some spokesmen, some leaders of parties and in particular of the leader of the Labour Party to, as he said himself, quote unquote certain policy statements and he quoted unquoted again from the policy statement of our party issued in 1975 when he quoted unquoted from just one line, namely the commitment for a phased and orderly withdrawal from the six north-eastern counties.

Is that still Fianna Fáil policy?

I heard the Deputy over the system.

(Interruptions.)

The Minister is in possession. Nobody interrupted Deputy Cluskey or any other Deputy. It is my job to see that the Minister is not interrupted.

It is our job to find out what Government policy is.

The Minister will continue without interruption.

It is very difficult to deal with this——

The 1975 policy document was——

Will I be allowed to deal with this?

Will Deputy Harte please allow the Minister to continue?

Sometimes one really despairs of trying to put across a consistent theme in this House.

We know your problem.

You cannot know it because you have never been subjected to it. You indulge in it. This is such an important debate that I would prefer to wait until Deputy Harte and Deputy Cluskey will allow me an opportunity to make my case.

The debate has been going on since 10.30 this morning without any interruptions and the Chair has seen to that. Every Deputy has been protected. The Minister is entitled to reply whether Deputies like what he is saying or not.

We want him to answer the questions that were asked.

Our approach has always been, on that policy position, agreement and consent and movement through peaceful means and only that. The opening statement and the whole tone of that document stresses agreement, consent and peaceful means. Every move involved in it, including the obligation of the British Government—the obligation we believe they should accept to encourage the unity of the Irish people by consent is by agreement with our Government, by agreement between North and South and between the people of the North themselves. Now there is the economic obligation that I have spoken about and that Deputy White properly referred to and that too must be faced by agreement. We have never suggested that if they enter on the path we have long called on them to take, to encourage the unity of the Irish people by consent——

When will you encourage the Irish people by consent?

——it means that overnight we could discharge the obligation economically to the North having regard to reality as it exists there at present. We have always made it quite clear that this would mean an agreement between both Governments for each of us to discharge our obligations, to work together in a new understanding and in new developments. Hence it was that we laid such stress when we came back to Government on development of economic co-operation programmes along the Border—as a beginning only in that area. Hence it was that we made our commitments, which are quite clear and identifiable in all of these regions.

But you did not provide the money.

In case there may be any doubt about the amount of money that has been involved, first—apart from the programmes or studies themselves—one can say that a total of £3 million will be received in the course of the coming year from the European Regional Development Fund in assistance towards achieving the objectives of the Derry-Donegal Communications Report. That is point one. That will be matched, of course, by equal contribution from Government——

By half, 50 per cent. You are boasting about £1.5 million.

You have not heard the end of it yet.

(Interruptions.)

Will Deputy Harte——

If Deputy Harte is dissatisfied with the progress we have made and that I as Foreign Minister have made in getting this support——

The progress is nil.

I find it impossible to continue.

Sorry, Minister. If Deputy Harte does not wish to listen the Chair would ask him to leave the House.

There is every reason to believe and to know that, given a degree of political co-operation between Governments which we have been able to promote—I believe more can be done as the Taoiseach has underlined—very much more significant support could be made available from our European partners in this area. I say this in the presence of the leader of the Fine Gael Party. It is only in the last two or three years, since this Government came to office, that we have begun to exploit the support that is there from the European Community in this area. As further earnest of this in relation to the Erne catchment area, the Finlaghy and Blackwater regions, I want to say that discussions are at present continuing in regard to the unblocking of regulations on the non-quota and quota sections which would provide approximately £16 million in addition to what I have mentioned over a five-year period for projects to be undertaken in the Border region. These cover a whole range of areas in agriculture, tourism, land improvement and so on. The important thing to be emphasised here is that to really maximise on what is there—and our European partners are very helpful—involves co-operation between Governments. It involves political decisions and economic commitment on the part of Government. That is the message that the Taoiseach and the Government have been trying to demonstrate very actively. One major contributing factor in this whole area——

The British want to spend the money. You do not want to spend the money. You have not put it up. That is the truth.

I appeal to Deputy Harte. He will have to listen.

Because of our concern about the cost to the State and because of what we can clearly see as being the growing level of public expenditure from Westminster on the North to no telling effect, it is time that we did recognise the obligations of Government, and the British Government in particular, to work with us in this area. We, from our limited resources, have provided very substantial funds and we are determined to ensure that instead of facing a Bill of £82 million this year simply to cope with terrorism in the Border regions, and that alone, to continue to work with the British Government and to persuade them that that money, our contribution at that level, could be much more effectively employed if we sought positive political progress along the lines suggested formerly.

Here I would like to turn to what one needs to do to unlock the situation and to enable these moneys, both from here and from the European Community and also from elsewhere, to come to the aid and benefit of the people of the North, not simply by way of public service expenditure, but by really realising the potential that is there. Yes, this Government have said many times, through the present Taoiseach and through successive leaders of this party, that the negative guarantee to the majority in the Six Counties of the North is indeed a stumbling block to progress and understanding there. Our view is that a guarantee that is, in effect, a veto confines the question to the North itself. I have tried to demonstrate, even in economic terms, that that is not how it can be solved. It confines the question to the North, it maintains the original so-called solution which in fact is the problem and has become the lasting problem. As the Taoiseach has indicated, the fact that the intended solution has become the problem is demonstrated all too clearly by the facts and the tragic history that we have seen in the North in the last ten years and, indeed, in the last 60 years. Guarantees of the nature that we are concerned about and that we want to see changed imprison people behind the bars of historical prejudice rather than releasing them into the freedom of normal political activity, working for the economic and social well-being of the people they wish to represent. It is no accident that because of these guarantees we have not seen the normal political debate focussing on the role of the politician in promoting balanced, fair, just and economic social well-being in the North as in any other country. We believe especially that this is not because of any lack of capacity or interest on the part of Northern politicians. I am speaking personally here but I think this is a view that has been expressed by many of us: one of the great tragedies of the North is that contemporaries of mine in the North who have so much to contribute to political activity in the real sense of the word, who have given a lot of time and effort and made sacrifices, are being prevented from so contributing. They have a leadership capacity that is not being allowed to express itself. It is one of the great tragedies of this island that many of those who are waiting and hoping for an opportunity to do something positive are prevented from doing so by their negative guarantee which draws the curtain across the reality and confines everyone in a dark room in which the conference table is brought out again and again and where the only question is one side asserting itself against the other and the other having to protect itself. It is time that the curtain was drawn back and that the realities were faced and that the political representatives, who have the confidence and the capacity to do so—and that does not apply to all of them because some prefer much more to feed on prejudicial fear and to present things rather as they would like them to be seen rather than as they are—be allowed to work together.

Here I address myself particularly to Deputy FitzGerald in the light of some of the comments he made this morning which might tend to aggravate fears based on some of the prejudices I have referred to. Deputy FitzGerald suggested that he was the person who had unblocked the road into the North. I do not know what the late leader, Séan Lemass, would have thought of that. Deputy FitzGerald suggested that he unblocked and opened up the avenues but no one followed through after. I would like to put some facts on the record and these facts speak for themselves. It is important that some of the things that Deputy FitzGerald said this morning be contradicted here in his presence now. First of all, there was an implication that our contacts, such as they are, have been almost exclusively with the Catholic side, that we do not seem to have any perception or awareness of the fears of the Protestant Unionist side. If that were true Deputy FitzGerald's criticisms would be well founded but, unfortunately for his case, it is not true. I want to say particularly that the only Church leaders I met in discharging my responsibilities as Foreign Minister in connection with this question, either in the course of formal discussions or informal discussions were Protestant Church leaders. I had very useful discussions with them, with leaders of the Church of Ireland Bench of Bishops and with leaders of the Presbyterian and Methodist Churches. I never had any such discussion with any leader of the Roman Catholic Church.

I was talking of Unionist politicians, not church men.

The impression made this morning needs to be corrected. Now I come to the Unionist politicians. Deputy FitzGerald likes to do things in public without necessarily considering the impact of what he would say in public on those who wish to discuss things privately. I and other representatives of this Government have met members of every political party in the North on many occasions both in the North and the South.

Members of every political party?

One of the avenues through which we were most effectively able to meet and work with them, without any compromise or embarrassment for them, was in the very area on which I have been concentrating. That was an avenue that was not available to Deputy FitzGerald in his time because it was an avenue that was not even open at that time. But in case it would lead to any misunderstanding, I am not concerned about how we might be criticised here in this jurisdiction for what Deputy FitzGerald has levelled against us this morning; I am rather more concerned about how we would be perceived in the North. The truth is that there is no basis either way for his allegations that our contacts have been one way. If they have been one-way, they have been one way towards consultation with those whom I acknowledge are the ones we most have to try to understand. I hope that we will not find any further misrepresentations of that kind. I have honoured the trust of these people in not disclosing when I met them and who they were. That will continue to be the way to build on the trust that we have.

The Minister said he met the leaders of every political party in the North. If that is right I thank the Minister for it.

What I have said is true but I have not made a boast of it or a virtue of it.

Does that include Dr. Paisley?

That is so, but I will not be cross-examined on this.

The progress has not been too satisfactory.

When we are dealing with the North we are dealing with real progress, real understanding, not how we would like to present things today. There seems to be a suggestion that because the Government, in particular through the Taoiseach who is our Leader, has developed a new understanding with the British Government and a new commitment for continuing political progress, somehow we are forgetting that aspect of it. Again the Leader of Fine Gael has implied that he has had high-level contacts within the last number of weeks with representatives of the British Government. He cannot have it both ways. I do not know what contacts he has had. I do not know whether there were real and substantial discussions on what the three visits in the last number of weeks were, presentational, at least as reported here. Perhaps it would be helpful in clearing the ground so that we would know exactly who was talking to whom, if Deputy FitzGerald could indicate to us the nature of the discussions he had in England, with whom he was speaking, and the progress he made——

The subject under discussion is what the Taoiseach was talking about and not what Deputy FitzGerald was talking about.

——so we will not just get a one way criticism and imply that the only person who has an active concern at every level is the man sitting in the Opposition benches at the moment. The reality is that that has not been the case, is not now the case. The contacts that we have had demonstrate not only our concern but also our capacity to make real political progress——

Can the Minister tell us about it?

——to enter into real economic arrangements as distinct from the presentation of such arrangements either through the media or otherwise.

Can the Minister give us an example?

I have given many examples but the Deputy did not wish to hear them. These were particularly in relation to North-South arrangements.

In view of the growing youth population both North and South there is a major problem for both Governments, a problem of which the Taoiseach is particularly conscious in trying to create this new understanding. We must provide opportunity for employment for young people both North and South. For too long we have been dissipating our resources, competing with each other to attract investment. This is one of the areas which the Government are exploring in the interest of working together, not merely in a cross-Border context but in both North and South and eventually in consultation with the British Government, to attract industry at less cost to both Exchequers and to the greater advantage of both areas; and in particular to introduce support for our educational programmes which are so vitally important in the area of providing opportunities for our young people in the new industrial and technological era in which both North and South must be involved if we are to have any progress.

It is one matter to look back over the tragedy of the past 60 years and to think of what did not happen but it is something else and something much more appropriate to look forward and to think in terms of what must happen on every front. The beginning must be the political consultations that the Taoiseach spoke about, both after the Downing Street meeting and this morning. The beginning must be the unlocking of the door that provides the negative guarantee, the unlocking of the door that allows people both North and South to engage in real political activity and which will enable us to put forward our programme for economic advancement particularly at a time when our capacities are being affected by the international economic environment. It would be too bad if we were to wait until next year to get decisions from the British Government. Such a situation could have a drastic effect on the level of public expenditure in the North.

It will remain a preoccupation of this Government as has always been the case—and this is a preoccupation that I believe is shared throughout the House—to use every means available to us in the EEC in particular to support the projects in industry and in agriculture and also the development of our resources, be they in tourism or otherwise. It would be too bad if one of the consequences of the expenditure concerned on the part of the British Government were to be that because of the level of funds which are under discussion now in Europe and which are roughly of the same order as those provided in the North, we were to have a double loss in this direction, to see a setback in Europe that would further inhibit our capacity through regional, agricultural and industrial policy to make a combined attack on the problems, not only of the North but also of the South.

It would be helpful from now on if we endeavoured to ascertain first what both Governments have in common in regard to the North and to the South.

Hear, hear.

I suggest that in trying to find what we have in common, it would be very helpful if we did not engage, as has been the practice unfortunately, in selective quotations, if we did not engage in implications which give a wrong impression to people in the North and if people in this House would refrain from attributing to us in Government an attitude that shows either a lack of awareness, a lack of knowledge or a lack of concern, because on our concern is based the confidence that we can release the capacities that are in the North through their representatives on a tripartite basis, between Governments, between North and South.

I should hope that when this new political understanding that has been developed since the Taoiseach's return from Downing Street really gets under way, both Governments will realise that we have so much to gain together and that in this way we can provide, for the first time, a real opportunity, both economically and politically, for justice and peace in the North and, indeed, for a lasting peace in all of Ireland.

How much of the £50 million has been spent?

Question put and agreed to.
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