Thomond College of Education, Limerick, Bill, 1980: Second Stage (Resumed) .

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. E. Collins

: I did not have an opportunity of speaking before we adjourned the discussion on this Bill. I welcome the Bill. This party have no objection to it. We are pleased that the statutory instrument is to be enacted to enable Thomond College of Education to be established on a statutory basis.

It is a very interesting college. It is now the national training college for physical education instructors and instructresses and provides courses in specialist disciplines, as the Minister said this morning. These developments are very welcome in teacher training. The work done to establish the college during the past few years was somewhat difficult, but very successful. This is an area which needed attention, and it has now received recognition by this House. We did not have a national training college for physical education teachers until Thomond College was established. There were two colleges, Sion Hill and Ling colleges, for the training of women physical education teachers, but there were no facilities within the State for such training for men. That problem has been resolved since Thomond College is a national college for the training of physical education teachers.

The Minister will acknowledge that it is very important that the standard of the graduates from the college must be accepted not only in Ireland but in England and throughout Europe. It is vital when we are establishing a new national college for the training of physical education teachers that our standards are high. I am pleased that the National Council for Educational Awards paid such close attention to the situation in the college, especially in the past two years when the NCEA were given the task by the Minister of validating the courses. I will have more to say about this aspect in the context of the current dispute in the college. I have a proposal to make.

I notice in the Bill that the only award mentioned is a suitable degree level course. A degree level course means a course of study leading to the award of a degree by the National Council for Educational Awards. In this special case I am quite happy to see the NCEA fully involved in the validation of courses and the making of the awards. I wonder why there is no provision in the Bill for courses leading to certificates or diplomas. This seems an unnecessary omission from the Bill especially in the areas not involving physical education.

We are establishing a professional course for the education of physical education teachers leading to a degree at the end of a four-year period, a bachelor of arts degree bestowed by the NCEA. What will happen in the other specialist disciplines? The Minister mentioned metal work and woodwork teachers and the other specialist disciplines. How far will the college become involved in this area? Is it intended to provide degrees for teachers of these subjects as well? Up to now, metal work and woodwork teachers, for example, did not have access to a degree level award. I wonder is it intended to include degree level awards for these teacher courses. This is very interesting, and it is important for many young people who want to have teaching recognition in those areas.

I am very pleased that there is provision in the Bill for in-service courses. This is highly important in all teacher qualifications. We have not been successful in achieving that down through the years in secondary and vocational schools, and so on. We were not really serious about the availability of in-service courses.

It is interesting to note that only seven of the members of the governing body will be nominated on the recommendation of the Minister whereas, in the NIHE Bills, the figure was nine. I appreciate that this is a step forward and will lead to a better spread of representation on the governing body. I note that one of the members so appointed shall be a member of the staff of a university in the State. I do not know how that will be achieved. It would be far easier to say "a member of the staff of University College Cork", the college to which Thomond College attached itself for a period.

I am also interested to know by what means we will have the appointment of a member of the academic staff of the Colleges of Education for Primary Teachers. What method of appointment or election will be used? It is also provided that three of those members shall be so appointed with such bodies representative of the interests of second level education as the Minister considers appropriate. That enables the Minister to do as he wishes, but I accept it as being an attempt by the Minister to provide a spread of representation on the governing body.

By and large the structure of the Bill is similar to the structure of the NIHE Bills. Many of the arguments we made on those Bills would be repetitive on this Bill and I do not intend to pursue them. The Minister is quite well aware of my feelings on a number of matters such as the power of directors, the method of appointment of directors, the presence of the Minister for Finance, and the other questions we discussed in depth on the NIHE Bills.

I am sorry that there is a strike, if you like to call it that, or a closure, or a nonattendance by students in Thomond College. I should like to discuss it briefly. Apparently the first proposal to introduce a final part one examination for physical education students was prepared by a sub-committee of the academic board of the college in November 1974. This proposal followed directly from a survey finding that the form of course work grading then in operation, that is, the continuous assessment method, was not acceptable to a high proportion of students and staff. Similar proposals were made almost annually by the college and by panels of assessors set up by the NCEA and the NUI because initially the college was under the aegis of the NCEA and it then came under the aegis of the NUI until 1977. For validation purposes, in 1978 it reverted to the NCEA. A problem arose in that the final part one examination which should have been taken at the end of the second year was not taken although students who enrolled in 1978 were told they would have to sit this examination at the end of the second year. They refused to sit the examination in 1980 and the college has been closed for a number of weeks.

The requirement of a degree has been stated clearly by the NCEA as part of their validation procedure and the examination is accepted as necessary by the Thomond College authorities. It is unfortunate that this impasse has occurred. If the Minister would afford me the courtesy of listening to me, perhaps I could put this matter before him——

Minister for Education (Mr. Wilson)

: I think the Deputy is getting away with murder.

Mr. E. Collins

: I am putting forward the suggestion that the students who finished the second year, who did not sit for the examination and who were not allowed to proceed to third year should be allowed to do the final part one examination in December and those who pass it should be allowed to go on to third year. That class could then proceed to the final part two examination which could be taken one term later; in other words, instead of taking the examination in summer 1982 they would take it at Christmas 1982. An agreement could be given by the students' union in Thomond College that in future they would sit the final examination part one at the end of the second year. I am putting that forward as a suggestion and proposal to break the impasse in Thomond College.

I accept the validation procedure laid down by the NCEA, namely, that there is need for the part one examination at the end of the second year. Unfortunately the procedure was not adhered to for a number of years and there was also a question of a reduction in the course work content to take into account the extra work necessitated by an examination. I hope the Minister will use his good offices with the governing body of Thomond College with a view to ensuring resumption of attendance at classes and resumption of normal relations between the governing body of Thomond College and the students.

There is one small matter I should like the Minister, in his capacity as a linguist, to sort out, namely, the Irish spelling of Thomond. The official letter-heading of Thomond College is "Coláiste Oideachas Thuamham" while the spelling in the Bill is "Thuamhumhan". Which is the correct spelling? I am sure the Minister with his great linguistic ability will resolve that for the benefit of the House and for the benefit of Thomond College.

I do not wish to deal in detail with the composition of the Bill. We did this on the Bill relating to NIHE, Limerick, and also to a certain extent on the NIHE, Dublin, Bill this morning. It only remains for me to wish Thomond College and the staff every success in their endeavours. It must go into the "Guinness Book of Records" in that the cost per student is the highest of all our colleges and schools. The college has been heavily endowed by the State. I hope the standard of the graduates will be very high and in keeping with that prevailing in England and in Europe. I am very interested in the specialist disciplines which are being introduced. This is an area that needs attention from the State. I wish Thomond well in the future.

Mr. Horgan

: I should like to welcome the Bill setting up Thomond College education on a statutory basis. If the Minister is not careful he bids fair to outdo the record of my colleague, the former Minister for Labour, Deputy O'Leary, in all the measures he is introducing in the lifetime of a single Government.

Mr. Wilson

: With the help of Deputies opposite we have a few more to get through.

Mr. E. Collins

: We await with interest the Bill dealing with the universities.

Mr. Wilson

: The Deputy will get it fairly soon.

Mr. Horgan

: It is probably fair to say that teacher education in these areas has been the Cinderella of the educational system since this State achieved a degree of independence in the early years of this century. It is easier to say that than to put the blame anywhere for it or to suggest any reasons for it. The fact remains that the overwhelmingly academic nature of our educational system generally, whether as a result of the need to establish a domestic civil service or to meet the recruitment patterns of the churches or for any other reason, has tended in the past to militate against many subjects and to give them a low social status. This has been even more exaggerated by the extreme unwillingness to this day of the universities to regard many subjects as disciplines fit for third level education or disciplines in which second level qualifications have any relevance to the fitness of the person concerned to go on to third level education. I am glad some small changes have been made in these areas, partly by the universities relaxing their somewhat antiquated ideas of what an adequate second level education consists of and partly also by the development of third level education in the technological area. It was to be expected that the raising of the status of teacher education in some of these relevant disciplines should also come about and it is certainly not before time.

It is altogether appropriate that finance at a fairly substantial level should be devoted to the establishment of the Thomond College of Education because, whatever else people respect, they at least respect the sense of priorities conferred by the allocation of resources and it is to be hoped that the allocation of resources to Thomond College will not be seen as a waste of money but a gesture of confidence by the Government and by the Dáil in the essential work which this college is doing. It can be said of physical education, as of motherhood, that we are all for it. But, on the other hand, it is something which has very much languished in our educational system, partly because of the expense of providing facilities for physical education and partly because, especially in a time of increasing competitiveness for examination results, it did not and still does not carry points for university entrance. It is difficult to imagine how it ever could do so, but that is by the way.

The other areas of teacher education, the so-called "specialist" areas, are certainly not as widely known as they ought to be, and yet over the years they have contributed to our educational system in general and to our vocational education system in particular some of its major strengths. I was glad that the Minister spoke about the arrangements made to welcome in particular mature students to Thomond College of Education in these areas. He is aware, I am sure, of the very intense need for more teachers of these disciplines if people are to acquire a greater range of skills than merely pushing a pen. I would commend to him an examination of schemes which exist in other countries whereby craftsmen, very often in the prime of life but sometimes older people, can also be recruited to the teaching profession. It is very frequently the case that craftsmen who have their craft at their finger tips also have an ability to transmit that craft to other people, young people in particular. If we are serious about utilising the resources of all members of the community this is an area in which the Minister should be looking for potential entrants to the college and perhaps making appropriate arrangements.

One area to which more attention should be paid is horticulture. I am not old enough to remember what many people still remember with affection as the old rural science course in national schools, but I have heard enough people talking about it to know that when it was extant it evoked a great deal of affection because it was a very concrete subject area and related to the needs and the environment of the young pupils who took it. I am aware that it has now been subsumed into the curriculum, but I would ask the Minister and the board of Thomond College of Education to give special consideration to the widest possible spread of this kind of knowledge to our schools. We are in the odd situation of being a country which is theoretically and practically capable of supporting itself in food production and one which is at present importing increased quantities of food. We are even, God help us, importing potatoes.

Mr. Wilson

: Bad ones.

Mr. Horgan

: I could not answer that because I do not buy the imported ones; maybe the Minister has the advantage of me. Even in the city areas some recreation of an allotment scheme such as the British Government introduced in their country during the last war might help to create in all our school children, not just those who in this respect are favoured by living in rural areas, a consciousness of the productivity of every inch of our land, which has enormous economic as well as social implications in the long run.

The main debate on this Bill will take place on Committee Stage and probably on sections 4 and 5. I do not propose to go into detail at this point except to say that, given the particular background and linkage between the vocational education sector and the specialist teaching we are talking about here, the Minister might do well to consider writing into one of these sections the specific possibility of giving representation to nominees of the Irish Vocational Education Association. I am aware that he does not rule this out because one of the subsections of section 5 indicates that he may take the people representative of interests in second level education. The work of the vocational sector in this area has been so substantial that I believe it might merit special attention.

I should like to make an appeal to the Minister to see, even at this stage, if he can intervene to resolve the difficulties which have arisen in relation to examinations at Thomond College. I will not rehearse the details of the problem as I am sure the Minister is perfectly well aware of them. It is not an industrial dispute so I feel safe enough in calling on him to intervene. As far as I am aware, there is certainly on the student side more than a willingness to agree to any reasonable compromise that will get the college back on an even keel. It is very sad that we should be setting up here on a statutory basis the Thomond College of Education while tomorrow the students are going on a mass march to protest against the actions of their board. There seems at the very least to have been a misunderstanding or breakdown of communications between the National Council for Educational Awards and the college board in relation to requirements with which students were asked to comply. Even if only to clarify this area I would urge the Minister to intervene and, if possible, find a compromise.

Minister for Education (Mr. Wilson)

: I should like to thank Deputies for their contributions, which were of the high standard I have come to expect in the many pieces of legislation with which we have dealt. I look forward to the same quality of contribution throughout the rest of the third level legislative programme.

The first substantive point made by Deputy Collins was about the omission of any reference to certificates or diplomas in the award section. This is, as the Deputy stated, a teacher training college. There has been general agreement that it is desirable that all teachers at all levels should be the holders of degrees and for that reason the only qualification available in Thomond is that of a degree validated by the National Council for Educational Awards. Deputy Collins also woundered how the selection would be made from the universities and from second level institutions providing the students for the college. All I can do is assure him and the House that, in selecting someone to represent the university and in selecting someone to represent the second level of education on the governing body, the Minister will take congnisance of the competence of individuals and their interest in this particular domain of physical education and of the specialist teacher education.

The question was raised and indulged by the Chair about the dispute in Thomond College. First of all, I would like to put it on record that there is no dispute with me as Minister for Education or with the Department of Education. The dispute is between the students on the one hand and Thomond College itself and the National Council for Educational Awards. Any action which I might take will certainly not be directed to subverting the authority of the administration of the college or challenging the competence of the National Council for Educational Awards in doing the job which we have given it by Statute of the Houses of the Oireachtas and Uachtarán na hÉireann.

I had an informal meeting with some students and with another student representative recently and I was very pleased that they indicated to me that they were willing to take the examination, and I think both Deputy Collins and Deputy Horgan indicated that that was their understanding also. Within the guidelines of not subverting the administration or challenging the competence of the National Council for Educational Awards and the acceptance by the students of the necessity to do the examination, I think some arrangement can be made. I would be very pleased if we could achieve that and we will make an effort in that regard.

Everybody in the House would have to agree with Deputy Horgan that this area was somewhat of a cinderella although, as I have said in my introductory speech, great work was done in the training of specialist teachers in the three areas covered now by Thomond College. It is true that physical education as such did have a very minor part in the education of our pupils at all levels. It is also true that organised games figured very prominently in most of the schools. It is not quite the same thing, but nobody can underestimate the amount of work that was done by dedicated people in providing organised games in our schools throughout the country over the years. It is better now to have fully qualified and competent physical education teachers, with qualifications that will stand up anywhere in the world, to deal with the physical education aspect. I agree on that. I agree with Deputy Horgan that the Government have committed very substantial resources indeed to this college and I expect that we will derive educationally tremendous benefit from this allocation of resources. As Deputy Horgan said, the amount of these resources is a measure of the appreciation of the society in which we live of the work expected in this area.

The point that it is an expensive area was well made, and this naturally has to be taken into consideration in our consideration of the at least partial neglect in the past. It is true still that points are not available for university entrance from physical education. I am glad to say that points are available, of course, in the other areas covered by the specialist teachers. The contribution made over the years in those areas has been great and many people who are involved in certain trades. Particularly house construction, have paid their tribute over the years to the people who have improved the percentage of skilled workers and skilled craftsmen who owe the beginning of their training to the vocational schools. Many contractors would say that, for example, when emigration was great from this country it was noticeable as the vocational schools grew in strength that the percentage, say in Great Britain, of skilled to unskilled workers was rising all the time due to the good work that was being done in the vocational schools. We hope that the courses we are providing in Thomond for these teachers will not only be continued and the numbers of skilled people increased in our society accordingly but that the quality of training will move into other more sophisticated skills as time goes on. We do recruit craftsmen, as Deputy Horgan has said, and I have outlined the scheme through which that is done. Speaking off the top of my head, I do not think we have an age ban. One of the problems, of course, is the very high incomes of some craftsmen in the middle years pursuing their craft outside the educational system, which makes it very difficult at a later stage to recruit them.

The opportunity for development of rural science at the moment is great. The grounds available are extensive, as I indicated in my opening speech, and I am totally in agreement with what Deputy Horgan said, that there was a sense of loss over the discontinuance of the rural science studies in the primary schools. This has been remedied in the provision made in the new curriculum. I would like to see more attention paid to the possibility of providing textbooks and educational material on a local or regional basis for the study of local botany and the local flora and fauna so that the pupils learning can relate to their immediate surroundings and not have to depend on the books dealing with the flora and fauna of other countries, as very often happens. Such books as those about the wild birds of Great Britain and the fauna of Durham and Northumberland are not necessarily relevant in Greystones or in Ballyjamesduff.

Mr. L'Estrange

: Or the hares in Donegal.

Mr. Horgan

: Or the hawks and the doves.

Mr. Wilson

: I would like to throw in the question to Deputy L'Estrange as to whether he has any idea whether the mountain have or the lowland hare in Donegal is the faster.

An Ceann Comhairle

: I would suggest that the Minister would not throw any questions to Deputy L'Estrange.

Mr. Wilson

: The point about concentraining the interest of pupils on the production of food and on the great scandal of importation of food is a point well made and I should think that, with the interest aroused by dedicated rural science teachers, we are working in the right way towards remedying this.

Deputy Horgan referred also to the Thomond problem. I have already said what I have to say about it. It is a matter of regret that there is a problem there. I think it is capable of solution and I hope it will be solved. I look forward to the Deputy's contribution on sections 4 and 5 when he said that he would have some specifics on those sections.

Again I want to thank Deputies for their contributions.

Mr. E. Collins

: Are we going to have a contribution from the Minister on the spelling in Irish of "Thuamhumhan".

Mr. Wilson

: Deputy Collins raised the question of how we spell "Thuamhumhan" in the Bill. I want to assure the Deputy that the spelling, as incorporated in the Bill, is the official spelling of that word. As the Deputy knows, it is made up of two words—"thua" which means north, and "Mumha", which means north Munster the same as Deasmhumhan, or Desmond which is a barbaric transliteration of the word for south Munster. If the Deputy looks at the word as it is in the Bill he will see that the "thua" part—indicating that it is from north Munster—is included in the composite word and that the broad vowel, "a" corresponds to the broad vowel in the middle of that word, second syllable; in general that the construction of the word meets with the general rules for the spelling of Irish words.

Mr. E. Collins

: Perhaps the Minister would get some consultation going with the college authorities to bring them into line——

Mr. Wilson

: I would not like to use the words "bring them into line" because they smack somewhat of the dictate or ukase.

Mr. Collins

: I agree with the Minister.

Question put and agreed to.

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 29 Oct 1980