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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 5 Nov 1980

Vol. 323 No. 9

Vote 43: Transport.

: I move:

That a Supplementary Estimate not exceeding £19,259,000 (nineteen million two hundred and fifty nine thousand pounds) be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31 December 1980 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Transport, including certain services administered by that Office, and for the payment of certain grants-in-aid.

This Supplementary Estimate results from excesses of £17,652,000 on eight subheads and a deficiency of £2,700,000 on appropriations-in-aid offset to some degree by a total saving of £1,093,000 on other subheads.

The single item in the Supplementary Estimate is the provision of £14 million for additional subvention for CIE, which will bring the total subvention for this year to £70 million. This compares with a subvention of £56 million in 1979, which itself represented a very large increase on the provision of £37.7 million for 1978. The year 1979 had been a particularly bad year for CIE's finances because of the effects of industrial disputes, large increases in fuel costs and substantial increases in labour costs.

Regrettably the severe decline that occured in 1979 has not been halted and, while the overall rate of deterioration in the deficit has slowed somewhat, it is still very high.

The two major components in the increased subvention provision now being sought are (1) increases in labour costs of about £7 million over the provision for this purpose included in the original CIE budget and (2) a shortfall of nearly £6 million in anticipated revenue on subventible activities. Other factors include additional railway and bus maintenance costs, increased social insurance contributions and accident liabilities.

The additional labour costs of £7 million includes about £1.5 million in respect of the 1980 National Understanding for which sufficient provision had not been included in the CIE budget.

The balance is for other inescapable increases, including relativity increases, additional annual leave, increases in superannuation and pension costs and increased social insurance contributions.

As I have said, the second major component necessitating the increased subvention requirement is a shortfall of nearly £6 million in budgeted revenue. Among the factors which contributed to this decline are the slowdown in economic growth and the poor tourist season. The bulk of the shortfall has arisen on rail freight traffic on which estimated total revenue is £3.7 million less than had been anticipated at the beginning of this year. Of this amount about half is attributable to the cement, fertiliser and mineral ores traffics and the balance to other traffics, including over £1 million on sundries. The shortfall on sundries reflects a further serious deterioration in this business which has been showing very poor results in recent years, and this obviously is an area which must come under scrutiny in the review of CIE's activities which is at present being undertaken.

The road freight sector has also shown disappointing results in 1980 and a loss of £1 million on this activity is forecast this year. EEC Regulations would preclude the granting of a subvention to CIE to cover losses on road freight, nor would there be any justification for subventing this activity which, if it is to survive, must compete on equal terms with the private haulage industry. The Supplementary Estimate does not, of course, include a provision to cover this £1 million.

On the passenger side the shortfall in budgeted revenue is fairly evenly distributed over the three main businesses, amounting to an estimated £800,000 on Dublin city bus services, £600,000 on provincial bus services and £700,000 on rail passenger services.

Of the total estimated deficit of £7 million, about £48 million is attributable to the railway, £16.2 million to Dublin city bus services, £4.6 million to provincial bus services and the balance of £1.2 million to the maintenance of canals and the Galway/Aran ferry service.

While the railway still accounts for by far the largest portion of the subvention, the losses on bus services have grown alarmingly in recent years, having more than trebled since 1978. This is due to a combination of factors including increased labour costs, the continuing growth in private car ownership, traffic congestion in cities and a deterioration in the quality of the public transport service, arising in part from a less than satisfactory bus fleet. I am happy to say that CIE's programme for renewal of their bus fleet is now well under way and delivery of buses from the new bus-building plant at Shannon will commence next Monday. The initial production programme is for 50 single deck buses to be followed by double deck buses, the first of which is expected early in 1981. CIE plan to introduce about 200 new buses in Dublin city in 1981 and this should make a substantial contribution to the improvement of the bus service in the city.

Deputies will be aware of the measures which have been initiated to create a better operating environment for the city's bus services following the report of the Transport Consultative Commission on passenger transport in the Dublin area. A first requirement is to improve the enforcement of existing parking regulations, and for this purpose additional traffic wardens are at present being recruited and should begin to make an impact within the next few weeks.

Plans are proceeding for the introduction of bus lanes and similar measures which will give buses a degree of priority over other vehicles. In the course of next year such measures will be brought into operation on the main arterial routes between the city centre and the suburbs of Rathmines, Terenure, Blackrock, Whitehall and Artane. Bus priorities on other arterial routes will follow later.

These measures will create greatly improved conditions for the operation of the public transport services and it will provide an opportunity for CIE to demonstrate that they are equal to the challenge of responding to these measures by providing a punctual, reliable and satisfactory service.

All of the measures being taken in Dublin will not necessarily be appropriate to other cities but the experience with the Dublin approach should help in considering how best to deal with the problems of traffic congestion elsewhere.

Reverting to the general question of CIE's overall financial position, I think that Deputies will agree that the continuing serious deterioration in the board's finances emphasises the need for the review of CIE's activities which was put in hands last year with the assistance of the management consultants, McKinsey and Company. The consultants have been studying CIE's four main businesses, that is, the railway, Dublin city bus services, provincial bus services and road freight. They are now in the final stages of their work and their report is expected to be completed this month. This report, together with other recent reports on transport matters, will form the basis for an informed review by the Government of policy in relation to CIE and public transport generally.

Premature publicity about the McKinsey Report focused on the possibility of an attenuation of the railway system, but, as I have already made clear, this is but one of a range of options examined by the consultants. The Government recognise that many of the public transport services which the community requires cannot be judged solely on commercial criteria. In their consideration of the future role of the railway the Government will, of course, take account not only of the high financial costs involved but also of the overall contribution which the railway can make to the achievement of social and economic objectives. The Government will, however, have to be satisfied that services supported by the taxpayer are operated as efficiently and economically as possible and that the community is getting value for money.

I will shortly be introducing a Bill to provide additional capital borrowing powers for CIE and Deputies will have an opportunity for a debate on CIE on that occasion.

The additional £2.7 million which is required in 1980 under subhead E of my Department's Vote relates to work under the Cork Harbour Development Scheme and represents additional moneys allocated by the Government during the year to enable Cork Harbour Commissioners to proceed with major dredging, reclamation and marine works required for the purpose of the proposed roll-on-roll-off facilities at Ringaskiddy.

The excess expenditure of £193,000 for construction works at airports arises mainly in connection with a number of projects completed during the year, including an extension of the apron at Dublin Airport, additional fuel facilities at Shannon, and the provision of a helicopter pad at Cork.

An additional £340,000 is required on this subhead to meet an unforeseen increase in the cost of overtime which was due mainly to improved overtime rates which were negotiated under the civil service conciliation and arbitration scheme. In keeping with Government pay policy my Department endeavour to keep overtime working to an absolute minimum. However, a considerable amount of overtime working is inevitable in areas where the operational requirements of the aviation and meteorological services specify a 24-hour day, seven days a week coverage.

The additional sum of £250,000 is required to meet the increased costs of consultancy services in the transport area, including the review of CIE finances which I have already mentioned and also work related to the establishment of the Dublin Transportation Authority.

The additional £40,000 sought under subhead B.I. is due principally to increases in travelling and subsistence rates and for expenditure on cleaning and related services at the new headquarters building for the Meteorological Service which was opened during the year.

The additional £61,000 sought under subhead C is required to meet increases in the costs of consumable stores which were greater than anticipated mainly because of unfavourable exchange rates in respect of purchases necessarily made abroad.

The additional £68,000 under subhead M is required to meet the costs of the Whiddy inquiry and for the Transport Consultative Commission.

Appropriations-in-aid are now expected to yield some £7 million as compared with the original Estimate provision of £9.7 million. The shortfall of £2.7 million arises from the fact that Aer Rianta, who manage and operate the State airports on my behalf, now expect to be in a position to surrender a sum of £1.6 million this year as compared to an original estimate of £4.3 million. This downturn is attributable to a number of factors.

The effects of the world recession, coupled with a significant switch from charter to scheduled services has had a dramatic impact on traffic through Shannon. Transit traffic through the airport is down 38 per cent while terminal traffic is down 10 per cent. The consequential net loss for 1980, taking into account both landing charges and lost revenues from duty free sales, catering and so on, is estimated at £1.3 million. Traffic through Dublin and Cork Airports is also down about 6 per cent and 13 per cent respectively. Apart from being hit by the general downturn in travel, the Aer Lingus strike, which lasted for five weeks in the peak July-August period, added its own problems and affected both the revenue and cost sides of Aer Rianta's operations. The ALT strike accounted for £1 million in lost revenue while the repercussions of the strike in terms of ALT payroll costs will amount to a further £0.75 million.

The total amount of the increased expenditure is £20,352,000—including a shortfall of £2,700,000 in appropriations-in-aid—but there is an offset of £1,093,000 in savings on other subheads. Accordingly the net amount required is £19,259,000.

I recommend the Supplementary Estimate to the House.

: On the surface it would seem that such a major Supplementary Estimate is extraordinarily high. However, having studied the operations of CIE I can understand their difficulties and the need for this extra money. It is time that we faced up to the fact that CIE are seriously under-financed and because of this lack of capital they cannot work in a business-like, efficient manner. There is no way that they can work to the satisfaction of the public and in particular to the satisfaction of their employees who are the people who suffer most as a result of the manner in which the company have been starved of finance over many years. It is about time that politicians, senior departmental officials and, in particular, the Government recognised that CIE must be properly financed. The company are falling asunder because of the starvation diet they are being fed at the moment. By that I mean moneys being allocated for capital needs and particularly for the provision of the very basic necessities, buses and rolling stock for the railways. There has been a serious dereliction of duty on the part of successive Governments over the past 20 years regarding the financing of CIE and it is time that was broght to a halt and that a meaningful attitude was adopted.

It has gone past the time when we should have had a national transport policy with certain aims and an effort made to attain those aims. Unfortunately the attitude in relation to CIE over the years has been piecemeal and it has had no co-ordination. As a result we have a system now which is losing money hand over fist. That is only to be expected because in the absence of reinvestment any company will go to the wall. Any company which does not have money pumped into it to provide new equipment and structures will fold up. If it were not for the fact that year after year CIE have received subventions from the State they would have gone to the wall a long time ago. We retain CIE, and rightly so, because they provide a social service. However, we must measure realistically what that cost should be and the public are just not prepared to accept continuing and increasing losses; in 1980 the loss was about £70 million. Something must be done and that something is a major reinvestment in new equipment because I attribute a great deal of the losses to inefficiency due to out-dated equipment, vehicles and rolling stock, in many cases obsolete rolling stock. How can a business operate under circumstances such as those?

The CIE 1979 annual report which I have before me here is one long plea from the chairman, Mr. Liam St. John Devlin, for money from the Government to provide the basic essentials to running a transport system. What are the Government going to do in response to that plea? I agree wholeheartedly with what Mr. St. John Devlin has to say. The Joint Oireachtas Committee on State-Sponsored Bodies agreed with him when CIE came before them and he made the very same case. The service has been run down to the point where it is not only loss-making but highly inefficient in many ways. How can one run a business properly if one has not got the proper equipment? I hope the Minister takes due cognisance of the CIE report and in particular the statement by the chairman.

I notice that one of the headings in this Supplementary Estimate is for extra money for consultancy services. An extra £250,000 is required. I know some of that has to do with the setting up of the Dublin Transportation Authority but undoubtedly quite a large proportion of that sum is being paid to the McKinsey consultancy for their study of CIE operations. That is a waste of money. We have had more reports over the past ten years on our transport system than on any other Government system or concerning any other semi-State body. We must have had a dozen such reports and each one came to the same conclusion, that what was needed was a major investment. That investment to improve our transport system has not been forthcoming.

There is no need for the McKinsey consultant agency to tell us what is needed. We are too well aware of what is needed. We had a McKinsey report in 1970 that told us what was needed and I have no doubt that the report which is expected shortly will tell us the same thing. We are all aware of the relevant parts of that report because there have been leaks to the press, the unions and to the Minister. My views are based on what I read in the newspapers. We are all aware of the NESC report, the report of the Transport Consultative Commission, the report of the Joint Committee of the Houses of the Oireachtas on State-Sponsored Bodies, the report by CIE in the mid-seventies and the Dublin transport study. They all told us what we already knew, that the basic cause of CIE losses was the lack of Government investment in new equipment and rolling stock and the provision of an up-to-date system of operation. The time has come to tackle the Dublin traffic and transport problems. There will have to be special bus lanes and busways and the exclusion of vehicles from the city centre. The sooner that happens the better. The losses being incurred by the Dublin bus system cannot be tolerated much longer. In 1979 that loss amounted to £13 million and it occured on a system which was profit-making ten years ago. The loss last year is an increase of £8 million over the loss in 1978, a staggering increase. Surely the answer is obvious, that the centre of Dublin is choked with traffic. It is not possible to run a profitable bus system in such conditions.

What we need are new and better buses. I was glad to hear the Minister say that some of the new buses from the new busbuilding plant at Shannon are about to go into service. It was pleasing to hear that delivery of the single deck buses will commence soon and that the double-deckers are expected early in 1981. We also need priority measures in relation to bus lanes in the city and it is also necessary to have improved industrial relations in CIE. In my view improved industrial relations will only come about if the standard of the buses and the equipment used by the men and women who work in CIE is improved. A lot of the losses and problems in CIE in recent years have been caused by frustration amongst the workers because of the substandard equipment they were expected to use. We can well understand why there has been a problem in industrial relations in the company in view of that fact. I am hopeful that with the introduction of the new buses industrial relations in Dublin and provincial areas will improve greatly. I plead with the Minister to go back to the Cabinet and get the money needed to provide new passenger rolling stock on our railways. That stock is urgently needed.

We have come to an impasse with regard to the provision of new passenger rolling stock. We have had the debate as to whether the buses should be built by a German firm or whether they should be built by native craftsmen who have constructed them for generations at Inchicore. I am pleased to note that the idea of getting Germans to run the project has been abandoned. It is about time we got rid of that notion. The Minister should tell the House if it is his intention to give the go ahead to CIE to build their own railway stock. Obviously, they have the acumen to do so because they have been responsible for the building of such stock for generations. It is a major black mark against the Government that sanction for this work has not been forthcoming. The higher executives and the craftsmen of CIE have been crying out for the finance to commence this work. It is obvious that the rolling stock at present in use is out of date and replacements are badly needed.

I should like to refer to the present unsatisfactory state of that rolling stock. At present some two-thirds of the buses, single or double-deck, in use by CIE are more than ten years old. I do not think any normal business concern would let its fleet become so outdated and run down. Members are aware that the buses built for CIE over the last ten years were constructed by Van Hool McArdle and that those buses gave rise to considerable problems. It is obvious that those buses cost CIE dearly. It is about time there was a major injection of new stock. It is interesting to note that no buses were built on behalf of CIE in 1979, single or double-deck and a mere three double-deck buses were built in 1978 for the entire country. That seems incredible but it is true. In 1977 only 14 buses were built. Before that the record was reasonably good but it is dreadful to think that for the last three years a total of 17 buses were built for the national transport company.

It is pleasing to note that the rolling stock being built at Shannon will be in use shortly because many of the buses operated by CIE are dilapidated and inferior. How can a company be expected to make a profit if it must use such vehicles? How can any company have good industrial relations with such inferior equipment? The sooner all those old buses are replaced the better. Some of those buses are more than 20 years old. There are 39 double-deck buses in operation which were built in 1959 and 34 double-deck buses are in use which were built in 1960. That seems incredible, but these figures were obtained from CIE.

The picture of the railway rolling stock is even bleaker. The number of railway passenger carriages available for use by CIE in 1960 was 643 and this year the number is 348. That figure is a grave indictment of Governments, politicians and senior officials of the Department. In 1960 it was 643. It dropped to 445 by 1965. It dropped to 393 by 1970. It dropped to 374 by 1975. It has now dropped to 348. Probably more alarming still is the age of the railway passenger carriages being used by CIE. The last time a railway passenger coach was provided for CIE was in 1972, eight years ago. In 1972, 62 new railway passenger coaches were provided for CIE. No new railway coach was provided in 1971, 1970 or 1969, which means that, of the 348 passenger coaches in use at present, nearly 300 are over ten years old. That seems incredible.

I do not want to frighten the public from using CIE mainline train services, but they should be told the facts. Besides being obsolete, the system must be positively dangerous in many aspects. Of the 348 railway passenger coaches in use by CIE today, 207 were built prior to 1960. More than half the railway passenger coaches being used by CIE today are more than 20 years old. Those figures speak for themselves. The whole thing is a disgrace. Let us go back on the record. No railway passenger coach was built from 1972 onwards. None was built in 1971, 1970 or 1969. Twelve were built in 1968; two in 1967; none in 1966; five in 1965; 32 in 1964; none in 1963; 11 in 1962; nine in 1961; and eight in 1960.

At the moment CIE need hundreds of railway passenger coaches. I am told that what they need immediately is 207 mainline coaches and a further 60 in the immediate future to cater for the growth in traffic. What have the Government done over the past three-and-a-half years? Despite their promise to provide a wonderful new national transport system and a new national transport policy, they have done nothing. Not one coach has been built in the past three-and-a-half years. They have not made a decision to build one. Obviously it will take a considerable time from the date of the decision until work commences and is completed. They have not taken a decision and that is a disgrace. On their heads must lie the bulk of the blame because that is where the buck stops for the run down state of our transport system and, in particular, our railways.

The run down state of our railway system can be blamed for many of the accidents which have occured in recent years. Our accident record in recent years is deplorable. I hope nothing worse will happen, but it culminated in the Buttevant rail disaster. That was not the only one. I will go back over the record of accidents. In August 1974, 60 people were injured at Rosslare Strand. In 1975 in an accident near Gorey there were five deaths and many injuries.

: Some of the accidents may be the subject of court proceedings. I would ask the Deputy to deal with the Estimate before the House and not to go into details of those accidents. The Deputy knows as well as the Chair that the Buttevant accident is still before the courts.

: I am not adjudicating on them.

: It is dangerous ground.

: I am just saying that CIE's accident record on the railways has deteriorated considerably over the past ten years.

: The Deputy is also apportioning blame. Where cases are still before the courts that should not be done.

: I am not adjudicating on the matter. I will let the courts do that. There must be a suspicion that there is a relationship between——

: I am asking the Deputy to leave it at that.

: I will leave it at that but the state of our rolling stock must give rise to concern. There are some brighter points to be highlighted. There are some good points as well as bad points. The statistics spell out the story. I want to mention the Dublin bus services to which I referred previously and which are a major contributory factor to this Supplementary Estimate. The losses for 1979 were £13 million which was an increase of £8 million over 1978. The figures I have before me relate to the number of passengers carried on the Dublin bus services. Besides the traffic congestion which is strangling the Dublin bus services there are other factors which are connected to the strangulation of Dublin centre city traffic. The interesting figures are as follows: the number of people carried on Dublin city buses in the year ended 31 March 1960 was 245,353,000, a sizeable figure.

At that time Dublin city bus services were making a profit, but in the year ended 31 March 1970 the number of people using the buses in Dublin city had dropped to 219,952,000 passengers. But here is the startling figure: In the year ending 31 December 1979 the number of people using the Dublin city bus services had dropped to 166,572,000. If we want to know why CIE are losing money, particularly on the Dublin city bus services, we will find the answer in those figures: in round figures, the number of people using the Dublin city buses dropped from 245 million in 1960 to 166 million last year, a remarkable decrease.

I do not blame the staff of CIE, whether they be executives or drivers and conductors. It is obvious that the position has been made impossible for all of them because of inferior equipment and the traffic chaos in Dublin city centre. Both problems must be tackled together. I do not believe in CIE putting into service a whole fleet of new buses. That is only a partial answer. Built in with that must be a scheme of busways and bus lanes so that the buses will get a free run.

The operation methods used by CIE in Dublin city centre should be changed and not necessarily by automation. I have been told that a lot of CIE's troubles in Dublin city have been because there has been less control on the ground, less supervision by inspectors and superintendents at ground level. Earlier, when inspectors moved around the city and exercised control at key points there was much better general control and consequently much less confusion than there is nowadays with radio-controlled buses. I should like the Minister to inquire from the work force what they think of the new whizz-kid methods now being operated. I am told the new radio-controlled system has not led to an improvement but rather to a disimprovement in the quality of the services, that things were much more efficient when the services were directed by inspectors and superintendents stationed at key points.

Let me go back to the figures I gave earlier and repeat that I consider them to be quite remarkable. But they are educational as well, and surely they speak for themselves more vividly when we compare CIE's Dublin city bus services with others.

This brings me to the provincial bus services. They also have been losing money at a time when the reverse should be the position because of the high cost of petrol and general travel expense for private motorists. CIE bus services in the provinces should be at least on a break-even basis. However, the annual report tells us that the loss on the provincial bus services in 1979 was £3.75 million, an increase of £2½ million on the 1978 figure. That again is unacceptable and we must relate the increased loss to the fact that the buses are outdated, that there are frequent breakdowns, that the cost of maintenance is huge and that there is consequent frustration among the work force.

In 1979 we had a rash of industrial disputes among CIE's maintenance staff which must have cost the company a massive amount of money. I have not seen the figure. Aer Lingus were able to put a figure on the cost of their maintenance strike but we have not been given an estimate of CIE's loss due to the maintenance disputes they had last year. I hope that the new buses being brought into operation will lead to an improvement in industrial relations and consequently that losses will not recur.

The figure for losses in Cork city in 1979 is frightening. It was £2 million, hard to believe. I know Cork city well and it is incredible to think that any undertaking could lose £2 million operating buses in a city of that size. I hope that in his reply the Minister can give us an explanation for it. The only explanation I can think of is one I have already given, that there is tremendous frustration among the work force because of the quality of the buses they have to operate.

Some time ago I saw a statement in The Cork Examiner attributed to a member of Cork Corporation, Councillor Denis Kiely. He called for a public inquiry into the CIE bus operations in the city. At the time I did not pay much attention to it because I thought, here is another local politician who has been getting it in the neck because of the inefficiency of the bus services. Now I appreciate his point. The situation must be chaotic in Cork with buses breaking down left, right and centre, with buses stalling half way up Gurranebraher Hill. Whatever the reason, the figure for losses on those services is not acceptable.

Of course the Cork services are included in the general provincial bus services and the figures are not very much at variance with those for Dublin. In 1960 the number of passengers carried on provincial buses amounted to 54,858,000. The figure had increased in the year ended 31 March 1970 to 79,250,000, an appreciable increase. Unfortunately, in the year ended 31 March 1979, the figure had decreased to 76,766,000. There is a partial explanation for that in the number of strikes and the lengthy maintenance strike in 1979. As well as that there was a severe winter and buses could not run for many weeks. The figures might not represent a decrease in real terms. I attribute a lot of the advance in provincial bus services to the introduction of the express busway. It is a welcome addition to CIE services. I hope the upward trend in the use of the provincial bus services will continue.

Losses must be eliminated. The Dublin passenger bus service figures are incredible. Another interesting figure is the number of passengers carried on our railways. In the year ended 31 March 1960 the number of people carried was 12,276,000. By the year ended 31 March 1970 that figure was 9,957,000. By the year ended 31 December 1979 the figure had increased to 17,886,000. That is a remarkable increase and a fair indication that the public are only too anxious to use the rail system. They would be even more anxious to use it if it were efficient and if the rolling stock was of a sufficiently high standard. A lot of consideration must be given to those figures. If the McKinsey report advocates the closure of practically all railways as we have been told the Minister should throw it out the window as it is not worth the paper it is written on. This was the very policy adopted by Fianna Fáil Governments through the fifties and sixties. There were hundreds of miles of railway lines closed down. I know there was not a great demand for the use of railways at the time but why did they have to sell off the railways and property which CIE owned? If the railways were not running at a profit what they should have done was retain them, perhaps not use them, but maintain them until better days arrived.

It was never more imperative to have a national railway system for a variety of reasons, the principal being that of fuel conservation. It makes dreadful economics to have thousands of cars chasing up and down from Cork to Dublin, Belfast to Dublin and so on. It is a waste of valuable fuel and finance and does not make sense. The public would be only too willing to use a railway system if it were of a sufficiently high standard, if the services were frequent and fast. What we should be concerned about is not chopping off further railway lines but improving what we have and updating it. By that I mean updating the standard of the tracks and the right of way which is not the best as many of us know. We see speed strictures here, there and everywhere. We should build new rolling stock. The figures show the public would use an efficient railway service. They are presently using a highly inefficient and outdated one. The figures I have mentioned would be increased if the quality of the service and rolling stock were improved.

The improvement in the number of passengers carried has come at a time when the staff in CIE has been cut back. Great credit is due to the staff who have performed so well in the circumstances. In 1960 there were 21,213 employees in CIE. This had decreased to 20,690 by 1970. In 1975 it was further reduced to 19,628 and in 1980 it had decreased to 16,763. The bulk of the reduction is in the railway sector. While the number of employees on the railways had been reduced by approximately 3,000 from 1970 to 1980 the number of passengers carried had doubled. A lot of credit is due to the staff and management of CIE for that performance. It only goes to show what could be done if the rolling stock and right of way were at a desirable standard.

I should like the Minister in his reply to give us some insight into the McKinsey report. It has been on the Minister's desk for the past few months. The unions and newspapers have had it but probably the Minister was the first person to have it. My party reject completely any suggestion that further stretches of our railway system should be closed down. We would fully support any move to provide substantial finance for new rolling stock for the railways. This work should be done by CIE craftsmen in their own works at Inchicore. They have done this work for generations past and to consider bringing in an outside firm from Germany is an insult to these people. The Minister should make the money available and give them the go ahead to start, and the sooner the better.

We all accept that CIE provide a social service. We all accept that the railways will never be profit-making, at least in the foreseeable future, but we must make an effort, and the public, the taxpayers, are demanding that we make an effort to reduce the losses. The obligation of the Government in the foreseeable future is to reduce those losses. We have come to accept the fact that the losses are going to increase annually. Last year the losses were of the order of £57 million. This year they are of the order of £70 million. What will they be next year, £80 or £90 million? That upward trend must be halted and I have pointed out the way that I feel it should be halted. That way is to make a major capital investment. Give CIE a chance. Give the workers, the employees, a chance to run an efficient service with proper vehicles, proper railway rolling stock. We are not giving them that chance at the moment. The figures tell their own story. The Dublin city bus service figures really spell that out and the sooner the Minister introduces restrictions within the city centre area the better. The sooner he provides new railway rolling stock for the railways the better. Obviously, the social service aspect will have to continue but the increased losses need not continue and they must not continue. One of the greatest challenges that faces this or any Government in the years ahead is to see that those losses stabilise or are reduced, and it can be done. The chairman of CIE in their annual report for 1979 pinpoints that fact. He says on page 4, and I quote:

The performance of all the personnel in CIE during the past five years has been exceptional in the context of improved productivity.

The figures spell that out, in particular in relation to the railways. He says on page 3:

In reviewing the years 1977 and 1978, I emphasised the urgent need for decisions in regard to projects which have been submitted to the Department of Transport.

The projects were submitted in 1977 and in 1978. The chairman continues:

It has been the view of the Board, that if such decisions were not forthcoming, then a clear statement should be made as to the future role of public transport with particular reference to the railway.

That is a strong statement. It says that the board of CIE are fed up with asking the Government for money to provide proper rolling stock. All their requests obviously have been ignored and it is time that they got a hearing and that that money was provided. The chairman said further:

Not many organisations have been examined and investigated as often as CIE—

We all know that—

and, notwithstanding the plethora of reports, Governments have neither interpreted nor modified the statutory duty imposed on CIE by the Transport Act of 1958

I hope that the Bill which the Minister refers to in his statement will come before us shortly. I would like the Minister, when he is replying to the debate, to make some reference to that Bill and when we may expect it.

Referring to the railways, the chairman states on page 5 of the report:

The increasing cost of national railways has given rise to much uninformed criticism of the undertakings. Recently the Group of Nine railways of the European Economic Community underlined the need for a EEC rail transport policy. The point was made that the railways' ability to compete is impaired by limited investment, unfair competition, inadequately compensated public service obligations and insufficient and unrealistic contributions by road and inland waterway operators towards their infrastructure costs.

It is very encouraging to note that the Commissioner for Transport in the European Economic Community—

I presume that is Commissioner Burke—

is responding to this call and is drafting a railway policy review document which will be published later this year. The Commissioner has indicated that "railways should have capital structures which relate to their current levels of activities".

I would like the Minister to bear that statement in mind and to do something about it. I will say it again, "railways should have capital structures which relate to their current level of activities".

That is exactly what we have not got in this country at the moment. That is what the senior executives on the board of CIE have been pleading for for the past three years and they have had a deaf ear turned to them and it is about time that attention was paid to their calls.

Not alone is our railway system out-dated but obviously it is dangerous. It must be. I would like to see that new equipment and capital investment provided as soon as possible. The CIE report states as follows on page 5:

Passenger numbers on the CIE railway continued to increase during 1979. However, the quality of the rolling stock is deteriorating. We will have to retire coaches from the suburban and the mainline services in the near future. The maintenance of service standards has become progressively more difficult because of the deficiencies of the rolling stock. One of our major problems occurs at weekends when coaches have to be withdrawn from the Dublin suburban services in order to supplement the peak mainline services.

We had a case this year where services were withdrawn on some lines because CIE did not have enough coaches to provide the services. The summer service from Cork to Youghal had to be abandoned last summer because, on the admission of CIE corroborated in this statement, their annual report, CIE did not have enough coaches to provide the services, Again, how could they when the number of coaches has halved between 1960 and 1980? It is half now what it was in 1960 although the number of passengers in the past ten years has doubled virtually. The report continues:

The plans referred to in previous reports concerning the establishment of an independent rolling stock industry at Inchicore Works have been reviewed.

Obviously, that means that the Germans have been sent packing and we are considering doing it at home. Thanks be to God for that. The report continues:

A new submission has been made to the Department of Transport.

I would like the Minister in his reply to tell us about this new submission. It is not referred to in detail in his statement. The report goes on:

The new plan envisages an assembly plant which will be managed and manned by CIE staff. The proposals will be considered by the Government when decisions relating to the McKinsey study have been taken.

I tell the Minister that the time to make a decision on the McKinsey study is well past and the decision on the submissions made by CIE regarding the building of these railway coaches is also overdue. I believe that the Minister has seen and studied the McKinsey report and I would like a clear statement of intent on his part as to the future of the Irish railway system and the Government's intentions regarding the financing of the project at Inchicore for the building of these railway coaches. The CIE report continues:

Between now and 1987 there is a need for 200 new mainline coaches to supplement the existing fleet and enable very old stock to be retired.

Chairmen of State boards do not use words like "very old" unless the items they are referring to are very old. As I have pointed out here today, over half the railway carriages used by CIE at present are over 20 years old and it is a wonder that they do not fall asunder when the train is shunting along. I use the railway system quite a lot and I know that the coaches are old, draughty and highly uncomfortable and they must be almost impossible to clean. The report goes on:

It is our intention to avail of the research and development experience and management advice of other EEC coach builders. It is significant that over the period 1969/70 to 1979 we have, on the rail passenger services, increased the revenue in real terms.

That is quite correct, because on the statistics I have quoted CIE mainline services are now carrying twice as many passengers as in 1970 with a reduced stock. The Government are not giving them a fair deal when they refuse to provide money for new coaches.

The penultimate word will of course, he says, rest with McKinsey. The ultimate word obviously rests with the Minister and the Government. I would like the Minister to let us know when that report will issue because it has obviously been circulated within the organisation and to the trade unions. I would like him to tell us what it says about the railways. Is it true that they will be virtually closed down? Will the Government accept that recommendation? I know it is in line with the report issued by Professor Foster six months ago but we publicly oppose that suggestion.

I will now deal with urban transportation. The report continues:

The Oireachtas Committee, Professor Foster and the Transport Consultative Commission have each referred to traffic congestion, the non-implementation of traffic by-laws, the absence of bus priorities and busways, the absence of co-ordination between the local authorities, the Gardaí and CIE. Each has proposed a co-ordinating authority.

That is sadly needed. In my view, CIE is too large an organisation. Is it not time we considered the railway system as a separate entity, the Dublin city bus services as a separate entity, and the provincial bus service as a separate entity and running them as separate entities? They should not be under one organisation. We could see the problems more clearly if we could isolate them. As I said, one of CIE's problems is that it is far too large and cumbersome. If we broke them down into smaller units they could be operated much more efficiently. It is worth considering that idea.

There could be a separate authority to run the Cork city bus services. If the bus service provided for Cork city, with a population a little over 100,000, lost £2 million last year, it needs to be scrutinised. This shows there is a case to be made for breaking down CIE into smaller entities.

In this report the chairman referred to the Transport Consultative Commission's recommendations and said the board agreed with them. The report said:

The Commission stated: "We believe an improved bus service is of fundamental importance if peak hour traffic congestion is to be reduced. We suggest three main components: new and better buses, bus priority measures and improved industrial relations."

One follows the other. We will get vastly improved industrial relations when the new buses start to move. I hope they will be an improvement on the buses built by Van Hool McArdle. I hope they do not start heating up in the middle of a traffic jam and then conk out not alone stranding passengers but causing traffic congestion all over the city. That is what has been happening. I hope these buses are designed in such a way that they will not break down so often. Seemingly CIE have not had proper buses for the past 30 or 40 years. The best buses which were operating until recently, were built prewar. Those built recently have given a great deal of trouble. I hope these new buses are good.

It is up to the Minister to provide the bus priority measures, referred to in the Transport Consultative Commission's report, needed to sort out the Dublin traffic problem. He may have to take what are initially unpopular moves, such as restricting the use of private motor cars within the city centre area, but ultimately it will be in everybody's best interest and I am sure the public will appreciate such a move. There is nothing more frustrating than to be caught in traffic jams day after day.

In his conclusion the chairman said:

In my personal submission to the Oireachtas Committee, I pressed for a national commitment to the railway.

That is what I am asking for, I agree that we need a national commitment to the railway. By a "national commitment" I mean the retention of the present railway system and an injection of capital to provide the rolling stock which is not there at present. He went on to say:

I said that the country needs to make up its mind as to what kind of railway it wants, or rather how much it is prepared to pay for the railway. The railway is a part of our heritage and there is a tradition of loyalty and commitment among rail operative staffs which cannot be matched by any other group of workers in this country. We must set their minds at rest in regard to the future and for that, we need to know the nature of that future and the role of the railway. Within the limitations of the resources available to CIE, it is a well-run organisation.

That paragraph speaks volumes. It is a plea from the chairman of CIE for the Government to rescue them and provide money, because not alone do they not have rolling stock but they are being criticised unfairly by the public for trains not running, running late or breaking down. How can they run efficiently if more than half the rolling stock is more than 20 years old and nothing has been built for years past?

Overall, the report paints a gloomy picture financially. It is an excellent report in many ways. What I like is its honesty. I would like the Minister and the Government to be as honest as the chairman of CIE and to spell out clearly what they are going to do and when they are going to provide the money CIE ask for every day of the week.

: It is with a great deal of gloom that we always seem to debate any measures connected with transport, particularly with regard to CIE. I appreciate the plea made by Deputy Deasy and by Mr. St. John Devlin, chairman of CIE. The answer to all our problems, particularly in relation to transport, depends on the provision of money. If CIE are to be run as efficiently as we would like, much more money is needed. But the Government have many commitments and must decide the sections or the Departments into which surplus money is to be channelled. We must be reconciled also to the fact that not in our lifetime, and perhaps not ever, will there be a rail system that will pay for itself. We must realise that ours is a small country and that we have a small population, factors which detract somewhat from the possibility of the railways either paying for themselves or making a profit. For the moment we are confronted with the situation as described by the Minister, a situation in which there are losses in every sector of CIE. That is an alarming situation but it is explained to some extent by the Minister in terms of increases in wages and in fuel prices. There was also a very bad tourist season this year and that did not help. In these circumstances we must regard both the rail and bus services as social services to a large extent but we must try at the same time to make them viable by way of the injection of money from central funds.

There are various items relating to the Estimate in respect of which more money is needed. Obviously, the subvention in respect of CIE is by far the biggest amount of money involved — £70 million in a total Estimate of £90 million. That is a formidable sum and one wonders why in the Book of Estimates published in January there was not provision in respect of CIE for a sum greater than £56 million, since that was the amount allocated to the company in the Estimate for 1979. Surely the Minister and his officials anticipated some increase on the 1979 figure, apart from the addition of this £14 million.

I appreciate that it would not have been possible for the Minister to commit himself in respect of wage increases until after the national understanding was wrapped up but I am sure that the travelling public both in Dublin and throughout the country would like to know if there is to be a further increase in fares. Train and bus fares have increased dramatically in recent times. These increases were related to inflation. We should like to know also whether in view of the situation in CIE there will be cuts in services or whether there will be a combination of increased fares and cuts in services, or will this extra £14 million prevent a further increase in fares and ensure that at least the services will be maintained as they are at present?

Deputy Deasy has emphasised the need for more replacement of road and rail stocks. The Minister has explained that there is provision for such replacement, but again one wonders whether what is envisaged will be adequate to meet the needs of the travelling public and the requirements of CIE. The Minister talks about the initial programme of the introduction of 50 single-deck buses to be followed by extra double-deck buses, the first lot of which are expected in 1981. These additions will not be nearly sufficient, so that much more money is needed if we are to have sufficient, well equipped and up-to-date buses.

There are comments, too, about the type of services provided by CIE. In view of the frequent breakdowns of commuter trains to Dublin, the Minister should investigate the situation in this regard. I am sure that most of the people who use those trains are car owners but even if they are suiting themselves in travelling by train from the surburbs, they are helping to relieve the city of some of the congestion that we would experience otherwise. However, if these trains are to break down frequently, there will not be any incentive for people to use them.

There have been big losses in respect of the bus service in Cork city. One can understand the reason for that when one realises that the buses concerned are old, that they are not capable of doing the job that they are supposed to do and that, above all, they are not able to cope with the hills in the city. If this situation is not dealt with, there will be continuing and increasing losses in respect of the services in that city.

The Minister stated that one of the reasons for the losses suffered by CIE in general this year was the poor tourist season. There were also the other factors of fuel cost increases and of labour problems. I do not think that any of us can adjudicate on the labour problems, that we can say who was right or who was wrong; but I am sure that the workers within CIE are anxious to provide a good service for the public and to make that service as economic as possible. It has not been shown that on all occasions the workers have been responsible for the industrial action which they believed was the proper course in certain circumstances. There is an obligation on CIE, too, to ensure that labour problems are resolved quickly and that generally there are good industrial relations between workers and management.

Unlike Deputy Deasy, I do not travel frequently on the trains but I meet many people who avail of that service. So far as my part of the country is concerned, it is not very comfortable for one to travel by rail from Wexford to Dublin, particularly in winter. I am sure that this is the situation so far as other parts of the country are concerned also. The carriages are old and shoddy and above all, they are very cold. People who are in a position to use their private cars will not wish to sit in a cold carriage for about a three-hour journey to the city.

Has the Minister any information in respect of the proposed electrified north-south Dublin commuter services? If so, I should like him to give us that information when he is replying. I am informed that new stock is required for that service.

In a comprehensive speech, Deputy Deasy referred to the McKinsey Report. This is costing the state £252,000 and, consequently, I should like the Minister to expand on his comments in regard to the report, if not today at least at some time in the near future. The recommendations, as reported in the press, suggested that the rail services would be confined to some cities outside Dublin, that they would be Dublin to Cork, Limerick to Galway and perhaps a link with one other city. If this is true it is a crazy idea. If it represents all that McKinsey can come up with in respect of our train service, I do not think it was worth £250,000. The Minister has nodded so I am sure he will be frank enough to agree with me on this. I am sure he expects to receive a more sensible and sane report.

Too many railway lines have been closed down. Instead of closing down further lines we should be endeavouring to make travel and transport by rail much more attractive. Our car population is increasing daily. Not alone is revenue being lost to CIE in this way but there is resulting chaos in the traffic situation, not only in the city but in the provincial towns. We could make rail travel much more attractive by decreasing the fares to some extent. I am not talking in terms of cutting them by half or anything of that nature, but they could be reduced. In this way more people would be encouraged to travel to Dublin from, say, Wexford by rail than to travel by private car. It is much cheaper for four or five people who are travelling to a football match or some other function to travel by car than to travel by rail. Despite the high cost of petrol, when it is divided among four people, it will cost much less per person than to travel by rail. Very few rail excursions are run nowadays but when they are run the trains are only 25 per cent full. If the fares were decreased much more I believe many more people who travel to different functions by car would use the rail services. If the trains were properly heated and proper catering facilities provided, even though there was a reduction in fares, the revenue of CIE would be vastly increased.

One of our greatest problems is the large increase in the number of cars on our roads. Is there not a case for controlling the number of cars on the road? In theory, nearly every person over 17 years of age can have a car. If a proportion of them get cars our problem will become much more acute. I believe that consideration should be given to licensing the number of cars in the country. Many people who have cars do not have real use for them, but succeed in snarling up the traffic. I would like the Minister to comment on the idea that we should control the number of cars on the road. I know that this would be a difficult thing to do and that there would be discrimination, which would be objected to.

The large juggernauts travelling on our roads are causing great damage to them. The Ceann Comhairle, introduced a Bill which gave permission to many more people to buy those juggernauts and large lorries with massive trailers. I know they are doing a service to the country in transporting goods to and from the Continent and up and down the country but they are causing a great problem in relation to traffic in our cities as well as in our provincial towns and on the ordinary highways.

As far as grants for harbours are concerned I notice that the bulk of the money is going to Cork to continue work there. I am sure I speak on behalf of the Leas Cheann Comhairle when I ask that an assurance be given that money will still be provided for the development of our most important port, Rosslare. If the Minister has forgotten this I am sure he will be reminded by the Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

I have not read the report on the inquiry into the Bantry Bay Disaster but I would like to compliment the chairman of that Commission. Mr. Justice Declan Costello, for the excellent job he did. He was very honest and very courageous in the comments he made in regard to the Whiddy Island disaster. We have had this report and we have had recommendations. We have also had identification with regard to the cause and so forth of the dreadful tragedy but the public should be told what happens after the presentation of this report. Will action be taken by the Minister for Transport or by any other Minister? I have no objection to the amount of money being required by the Minister for Transport. I ask him to try to persuade his colleagues to be much more generous to CIE and to meet, as far as the Government can, the request made by the chairman of CIE, Mr. Liam St. John Devlin.

: The Minister in the Supplementary Estimate has again shown his refreshing approach to our transport problems. He deserves every support we can give him to help to resolve those problems. The cost of our transport and our transport problems is growing all the time. The Minister has made some improvements and I am confident that he will bring about some more. I am very impressed with his whole approach to the matter.

Deputy Deasy made a very good contribution apart from some indulgence in Government-bashing now and then which spoiled his speech to some extent. One cannot blame the problems of CIE on any Government. The problems of CIE take up the bulk of the money in the Supplementary Estimate. This will be a continuing problem. I see some hope in relation to the Dublin city services which are losing so much money at the moment. If the Minister's plans are put into effect I believe we will see a better service in this city and that it will not be a loss-making one. CIE had a bad year in 1979 in relation to business generally. The main cause given was industrial disputes. I look forward to the day when we will be able to resolve the difficulties of any management by proper thinking, proper planning and seeking the co-operation of all concerned. I deplore, like most people, unofficial strikes which have caused CIE quite a lot of money. At the same time, I realise that it is very hard to legislate against them. I have no hope in legislation bringing about the result we all want to see.

I appeal to the good sense of CIE workers and workers generally to hesitate before supporting any unofficial strikes. I know that sometimes there are good causes for such strikes and that management are not always blameless, If we are to start allocating blame we will not get at the heart of the problem. Everybody suffers because of strikes, both official and unofficial. Eventually, it is the taxpayers who pay for the loss incurred and this includes the people who are on strike. They are taxed to pay for something which might have been avoided. I do not blame the strikers all the time because I have been on strike several times. Management are to blame sometimes for strikes. If it is realised that there is a common cause between management and labour this will do much to ease the strike burden, especially in the public sector which seems to have more strikes than the private sector. The fuel costs of CIE have been considerable and we can do little about that. They use oil to a great extent and they have to pay the extra cost. We must be realistic about this and accept that there is no easy solution. No Government have a magic wand to wave to provide cheap oil supplies. We must face the fact that the days of cheap oil are gone forever. There is also the matter of labour costs which consist of increased wages and other costs.

The Dublin city bus service costs a great deal of money and it is unsatisfactory in many respects. There is a kind of Catch 22 situation here — the service gets worse while the cost increases all the time and, as a result, people use cars that clog up the city traffic. The amount of petrol wasted because of traffic congestion is enormous. On two occasion CIE showed what they could do when they had clear streets on which to operate the service. One occasion was when the Pope visited Ireland. At that time traffic was cut to a minimum and CIE operated a very efficient service. It must be said to the credit of the CIE crews that they worked extremely hard to transport one million people to the Phoenix Park. During the recent petrol strike there was a very considerable reduction in the number of cars on the road and the buses were able to provide a good service.

There is a simple answer, namely, to provide clearways for the buses to allow them to operate an efficient service. In the transport study the Minister has planned for this. I am optimistic now that we will have a proper traffic system in Dublin and this is partially due to the steps taken by the Minister. However, while I welcome what is being done I do not think there will be a real solution to the traffic problem in Dublin city until we provide modern roadways. Dublin is an 18th century city with a 20th century traffic problem and the situation is getting worse. I find it difficult to understand people who oppose any change in the road plans or the construction of new roads. I am sure they do not want the city to become choked with traffic, with the centre of the city becoming derelict. It is inevitable that business will not carry on if people cannot park their cars. Inevitably they move to the suburbs and the suburban sprawl is made worse. We should concentrate on preserving the city centre by ensuring that people can live there, that business can be carried out there and that essential services such as a bus service operate in an efficient manner. Recently there was opposition in the city council to the proposal regarding the tangent road. It would not be a great thoroughfare but it would provide some alleviation of the traffic problem and it would allow the buses to operate more efficiently. However, even though the road has been partly built, the city council rejected the proposal. In the event, wiser counsel prevailed and less than one month ago the city council gave the go-ahead to the road programme. This will be of some help.

Plans regarding roadways may unfortunately include the demolition of houses. The eastern by-pass would mean the demolition of some houses but people do not realise that the traffic problem, the vibration of the buses, causes damage to the housing stock particularly in the inner suburban areas of the city. The area I represent has been hit very severely — I refer to places such as Irish town and Ringsend. There have been fatal accidents there due to heavy traffic. Irish-town is a very old part of the city and the houses are being damaged severely by the traffic. Some of them will fall unless steps are taken to move traffic from residential areas.

If we want to solve the traffic problem and if we want CIE to be profitable we must have a proper roadway network. The Government succeeded in getting a grant of £37 million from EEC funds for the construction of the eastern by-pass but unfortunately, the city council decided not to go ahead with it. I know that there has been a change of thinking and recently I heard one opponent of the eastern by-pass say that the matter would have to be considered again. I hope this is done quickly. We must give this city a good bus service but CIE cannot do this in our car-filled streets.

Deputy Corish mentioned the possibility of reducing the number of cars on the road but here again we have the Catch 22 situation. Because of our growing affluence more people can afford cars but the fact remains that our roads will take only a small amount of traffic. The buses cannot operate efficiently in such a situation. It has been suggested we should keep the cars out of the city but I am totally opposed to this. That may be a temporary solution but it is not a real solution. The real solution is to provide roads that will take traffic from the residential areas. The heavy traffic should be put on other roads. Articulated trucks are very dangerous and they must be taken away from areas where people live. We must ensure that the people who live in the city centre and the inner suburbs can continue to live there. I have seen evidence of people being forced to move to the suburbs because of fumes, air pollution and heavy traffic. Of course this adds to the suburban sprawl.

In this Estimate the Minister is providing funds for a proper transport system but we are wasting money because we are not taking the necessary measures to ensure that CIE can run an efficient bus service. I think they can. The CIE management are bashed very often but they try to improve matters. There is grave dissatisfaction with CIE services. Deputy Deasy pointed put that old vehicles are being used but the Minister has told us that new buses will be provided shortly. Maintenance staff in CIE struggle to keep the old buses on the roads but some of the buses emit the most appalling fumes, which do not create a healthy atmosphere. The Minister gives some hope for the near future in the steps he is taking to ensure that CIE will provide a good service.

When is the Minister going to transfer the cost of maintaining canals to the Office of Public Works? CIE have not the machinery or the organisation to look after them. Both the Royal and Grand Canals must be maintained. CIE could maintain the inner parts of the canals and the Office of Public Works would extend to the county. This would be a great boon and could possibly ease the traffic situation. It may be said that carrying goods by canal is too costly. Possibly it is, but with the density of traffic we may be forced to use our canals for the transport of goods. This all costs money and the Minister has shown excellent wisdom in the way he allocated money to the airports, canals, CIE buses and road grants. It is money well spent.

The Government or the local authority should provide proper roads. Let us give them all the backing we can so that we will have a proper road system, a proper bus service, a service for motorists and, above all, we will make life less hazardous for people living in the inner suburbs. People are suffering. In my own area, Pearse Street/Ringsend/Irishtown, one of the streets in that area is the most polluted in Dublin because of the heavy traffic.

I wish the Minister every success in his efforts to ease the heavy traffic, and I pledge him full support in his efforts to do so. I hope that when the plans are put into action we will have a much better bus service and that we will not lose money on it. We should aim at giving a fast bus service in a clean air city.

: The sooner the new commission is set up the better. I hope the Minister will give it suitable powers because, I regret to say, the city fathers, as they are known affectionately sometimes, but very rarely these days, in Dublin Corporation have reneged completely on their responsibility in relation to traffic. They are the most backward bunch of councillors in the whole country. They think Dublin exists only on its own and that the rest of the country does not exist. They are small-minded people who have opposed every single attempt to try to do something about the dreadful traffic situation which we have in Dublin.

The discipline of motorists in general — and every motorist will always agree — is virtually non-existent. Drivers' manners are making it impossible to progress in a reasonable manner. One of the big problems in getting through Dublin is caused by motorists who have no lane discipline. Where the roads are wide enough to hold two lanes of traffic they drive in the middle of the road and are very resentful of anyone trying to form an extra lane even where there is room for one. The dog in the manger attitude of motorists has made a living hell for people and I think coronary disease has increased enormously as a result of the traffic in Dublin. Councillors have a negative attitude towards the eastern by-pass; fortunately we managed to get the inner tangent road through, wisdom prevailed. I am glad to say our own party in the corporation as were members of Fine Gael, were unanimous in their support of the eastern by-pass and of the inner tangent road. The Labour Party in the corporation are a disgrace, they oppose every attempt to try to do something about the traffic problem.

I suggest to the Minister that the new committee be given very wide-ranging powers, that they consult directly with the Garda who are the statutory authority and that fines should be increased substantially for people who show a complete lack of regard for other traffic. I would increase the maximum fine to £25 for parking in a manner that forces traffic into a single line. One place which illustrates this is Fitzwilliam Street, coming across Baggot Street into Merrion Street.

: You are a little bit off the rails.

: This is very important. The Minister said that the first requirement was to improve the enforcement of existing parking regulations, so I think I am not really out of order. It is to that I am directing my comments. The Minister said that the first requirement is to improve the enforcement of existing parking regulations and that for this purpose additional traffic wardens are at present being recruited and they should begin to make an impact within the next few weeks.

: Higher fines are a matter for legislation. We cannot debate that.

: Even if there are 1,000 traffic wardens unless the fines are substantial they will be wasting their time and their tickets. We have to have punitive fines for people who park their cars too near traffic lights.

Much more attention should be paid to the eyesight of some drivers. I do not know what the colour green does to some motorists, some of them seem to be hypnotised by it.

: It makes them see red.

: They seem to fall asleep at the soft glow of the green, whatever effect it has on them. Maybe a survey could be carried out into the causes of this. Last week I had to get out of my car and tell a person in front of me that the lights were not going to get any greener. There were traffic lights out of order along the River Liffey——

: The Chair will have to give the Deputy a red light soon.

: I have to vent my frustration at the standard of driving. Yesterday the traffic lights were out of order at Usher's Quay, a little van was parked there and the driver would not move. I got out and told him that the lights were out of order and he said they were red. I repeated they were out of order and asked him to go ahead but he said they were working in the morning. That illustrates the attitude of motorists.

Parking fines for obstruction should be varied and should be increased quite considerably to make them produce results because, with all the traffic wardens in the world, they are not going to work unless we have punitive fines and increase them for every subsequent offence. We should do what they do in other countries — take driving licences away from people if they continue to break the law.

I would like to see the transport commission take over a lot of the functions that are at present the responsibility of the Department of the Environment. We are concerned with getting our traffic moving; people have compared Dublin to Bangkok where, apparently, it is as bad. Our traffic is the worst in Europe and this is mostly self-inflicted. Bad driving and poor policy making at local level are the causes of this. It has been said that bad decisions are better than no decisions. This unfortunately is the situation in Dublin Corporation, no decisions have been made to alleviate congestion in Dublin. We have got to do something about it.

The Minister mentioned plans for the introduction of bus lanes. I am in favour of this and in favour of the rapid rail system. I hope the Minister will give the go-ahead to CIE to implement the rapid rail system. I would do away with bus lanes in existing roads but not special busways. Perhaps it would be possible to control in some way the number of lorries on the road during the rush hour period. A special laneway for them might be a possibility and firms might be encouraged to send out lorries at off-peak times. Public transport must be able to get through the traffic if people are to be encouraged to use it. I salute the much maligned bus driver and congratulate him on the patience he exercises every day. I would not last one day as a bus driver in this city and it is a wonder there are not more strikes.

: Why do the Government not practice what they preach? Why did they not use public transport to go to Donegal this morning instead of sending 30 Mercedes and a few helicopters?

: Deputy L'Estrange should not enter the debate at this stage.

: What Deputy L'Estrange is saying might not be quite as wild as it would appear.

: He is not entitled to say anything at the moment and I would ask Deputy Briscoe to deal with the matter before the House.

: Successive Governments have had their share in closing down railway lines.

: Nobody closed more than Fianna Fáil.

: We have been in office longer but the present Opposition tried to make up for it when they held office.

(Interruptions.)

: Deputy L'Estrange was informed earlier that he had already got the red light.

: Deputy L'Estrange can make a speech only when he is out of order.

: Someone else made one on Saturday night and she was out of order.

: The whole show is getting out of order. We must get back to the business before the House.

: It is unfair that the Irish Ambassador had to call to Downing Street early on Sunday morning to apologise. The poor man had to be got out of bed.

: I should like to see greater development of the railways.

: I had better go.

: Deputy L'Estrange had a good innings.

: The renewal of railway stock is of interest to all of us but we also need to renew some of our roads and railway lines. I would hope that other disused railway lines would not suffer the same fate as the Harcourt Street-Bray line where chunks were sold off. By the year 2020 I would not be surprised if we had a population of between six and eight million and we will need extra railway facilities. A huge investment will be necessary by CIE.

I have always felt sympathetic to the suggestion put forward by Deputy Deasy about the regionalisation of certain sections of the railway because one sometimes feels that the present system is unwieldy. At present economies are being energetically sought by the management of CIE but I should not like to see economies at the expense of people who have been forced out of employment a few years before normal retirement. I am not opposed to early retirement when jobs are created for younger people, but I am opposed to it simply for the sake of certain savings at the expense of people who have been working for a company for 20 or 30 years. It is only a matter of time before the present Minister brings about improvement in CIE and, if it does not actually pay, it will some day break even.

It must be made attractive for people to travel by public transport. I would dearly love to be able to travel into the city by rail if it were convenient to do so by a connection from Hazelhatch. Outlying areas such as Blanchardstown and Clondalkin are crying out for a rapid rail service. I am opposed to the building of special busways and I hope the Minister will recognise that ultimately people living in areas such as Tallaght and Clon-dalkin will best be served by a rapid rail service.

The transportation committee should have very wide powers to take by the scruff of the neck the traffic problems of the country and, in particular, of this city and make the hard decisions which will be necessary. They must be able to deal with every little protest group that pops up. At present such groups are capable of intimidating little councillors who have bigger things in mind for themselves than being members of Dublin Corporation and who aspire to the national scene. These councillors try to gratify two or three people who claim to speak for residents' associations. The people of Dublin are crying out for drastic action.

I condemn a statement made by the Automobile Association shortly after the Army were brought in during the petrol strike. They stated there was no improvement at all in the petrol supply situation. They were wrong. I do not think they were speaking for many of the motorists. I know, as one, that there was a vast improvement. They did a great job.

: That does not arise.

: I know it does not arise but I took the opportunity to mention it as it was the first and only opportunity I had.

: First I would like to thank all the Deputies for their contributions to this debate and the many points they made. Some interesting points have been raised and they will get my full attention and, where appropriate, they will be brought to the notice of CIE.

In general terms the debate centred around the provision of new rolling stock, new buses and in particular the investment plans for CIE and how much money can be made available to them. That is basically what we are talking about today. We are talking about a Supplementary Estimate, which is about money. In my view Deputy Deasy over-exaggerated the problem in relation to the starvation of CIE in money terms because in a difficult financial year, in a tight financial situation, £25 million of capital was provided for CIE and today, given the subvention of £70 million, there is £95 million in relation to CIE for 1980 operations between capital and subvention purposes.

: I was making the point that we are losing money because we are not investing money.

: I will come to that aspect of it in a moment. In relation to the question about investment and how much can be invested in any particular year. Deputy Corish rightly made the point that CIE and the Department of Transport along with every other Department had to fight their corner, had to take their place as to where the priorities are going to lie and it is my view that CIE have done very well this year.

The main problems in relation to the bus fleet which were highlighted by all the speakers have been tackled and only next Monday the first bus comes off the production line in Shannon. In my opening address to the House I dealt with the buses. I accept the points Deputy Deasy made that many of the buses are over ten years old. But let me say that although they may be ten years old they are not the buses that gave the most problems in the recent maintenance problems in Dublin and elsewhere. The older buses have proved to be very effective. The newer buses recently made by Van Hool McArdle certainly have not been of a design suitable for use in Dublin or in Cork where there is a different environment for buses to operate in. We have had problems but with the new buses coming on stream that aspect of it has been dealt with very effectively. It is not the Minister's fault and it is not the Government's fault that we did not have buses for the last couple of years. Money has been provided for them. Let us be realistic. I am not here to apportion blame. I am not dealing in fairly tales but in facts. Money has been provided in recent years but no buses have been got. Let us put the record straight on that.

In relation to rail rolling stock I heard no mention in the debate here today of the approval given by the Government for £56 million for the electrification of the Howth-Bray line. That is a very significant investment in relation to CIE. This programme that has been welcomed by all sides of the House is proceeding as rapidly as possible. Work is going on on the line with over 100 people employed at the moment. Adjustments have to be made to railway stations and bridges and tenders have been invited and indeed CIE are on the point of placing an order in relation to the electrification of that rolling stock.

In relation to rolling stock for the main lines Deputy Deasy made points in relation to how old these coaches were and how they have decreased in numbers over the years. We must also bear in mind that over the last 20 years there has been a fair attenuation of railways and certain curtailments of service. The requirement of mainline coaches has not been of the same magnitude and quoting figures and statistics out of context can give a distorted picture. I accept that we need rolling stock. Operations are going on at Inchicore and CIE have been provided with money this year for the preparation of the premises to build their own rolling stock at Inchicore. They are also installing the necessary bogeys and jigs for the operation.

In fairness, in talking about the amount of money required by CIE and the size of the subvention, everybody in this House is aware that this comes from taxpayers' money and we have to be concerned as to how it is spent. It would be unrealistic for anybody to suggest that I could have been making more decisions in relation to CIE than I have made this year. When we talk about the deterioration in the financial position of CIE and the investigation being carried out by McKinseys throughout this year it is unrealistic for anybody to suggest that the Government could have made decisions in anticipation of that. What would be the point in having them in? What would be the point in having them study CIE and asking them for recommendations as to the structures and the financial situation in it if at the same time we take decisions in anticipation of their report? We would have somebody in this House wanting to know why did we not make decisions in relation to this, that and the other aspect of the report. These people are there to do a job. I do not have the report from McKinseys at the moment. I expect it at the end of this month.

Deputy Deasy and Deputy Corish referred to newspaper articles in relation to that report. These obviously leaked out as a result of meetings and discussions between the McKinsey people and CIE because they have had many meetings and discussions and consultations in relation to the various aspects and the various options that they were inquiring into. I assume that it is as a result of this that newspapers took up the point in relation to a total and absolute closure of the railways except for mainlines from Dublin to Cork and from Dublin to Belfast. I have gone on record since and I have put it on the record here today that that was only one option that they were looking at. We are not here to talk about a total attenuation of the railways but I must wait for the submission by McKinseys to me, the full report covering all the options in relation to the railways, the buses and the other aspects into which they are inquiring. When I get that report, in conjunction with all the other reports that have been made on transport this year and in past years I will be setting out to the Government my recommendations on the future role of the railways and all the other aspects of CIE.

I can assure Deputy Deasy, Deputy Corish and the House that when a decision is taken the investment money required for rolling stock and other purposes will be provided by the Government as has been clearly demonstrated this year by the fact that we have provided money for the buses and for the electrification of the Howth-Bray line. It would be unrealistic for anybody to think that we could set up an operation to make rolling stock. First of all it must be decided how much is needed and when, and the role of the railways must also be defined. To do things any other way would be to put the cart before the horse. That is not the way I do my business and it is not the way the Government do their business. We must define facts, find out what objective we have to achieve and then proceed to reach that objective. That should clear the air in relation to what is happening to the rolling stock.

The references to safety by Deputy Deasy are the next thing I want to deal with. Deputy Deasy knows well that there is nothing allowed into use or being kept in use by CIE that is not safe. They have safety standards to comply with. Anything that comes in any way close to being below that standard must be taken out of service. I would not like anybody to think that any safety standards have been lowered or eroded—that is not the position. CIE have their duties and we ensure too that these safety standards are not lowered in any way. In relation to the deterioration in the rolling stock Deputy Corish asked me to make some comment on the suggestion that although we got £56 million last year it would be unrealistic to think about operating within that for this year. As the Deputy knows, the subvention was increased from £37 million to £56 million last year and it is not unreasonable to expect that they could work within that this year.

Deputy Corish asked me to spell out the need for the additional money and why it was not foreseen at the start of the year. Let me put the main items on record. The 1980 National Understanding, over 5 per cent of the provision in CIE's budget, will cost an extra £1.5 million and other labour cost increases £5.4 million. These are increases that were not envisaged when the Estimates were made up towards the end of last year. Additional pay-related social insurance contributions arising out of the increase in wages amount to £600,000. Loss of revenue due to the recession, poor tourist season and so on amounts to £5.8 million. Additional bus and railway maintenance costs amount to £800,000. The increase in duty in gas oil, which could not have been foreseen by CIE, amounts to £600,000. Then there was the liability for the Buttevant rail and Cratloe bus accidents, £650,000; and miscellaneous items, £200,000. That is the breakdown for which Deputy Corish asked. When one looks at that list it is fair to say that those are items that could not have been foreseen by CIE when making up their budget for last year.

Deputy Deasy referred at length to comments of the chairman of CIE in relation to the annual report of CIE, to comments by Commissioner Burke and the need for big investments. The problems of the railways here are very similar to those all over Europe. We will be looking at the role of the railways. We agree fully with Deputy Deasy that there is a social aspect to this and that the role the railways will play in the overall transport of this country in the future must be defined. Having defined that, then we must set about bringing the railways up to standard. But there is not unlimited money around. In regard to the suggestion Commissioner Burke made, may I say that it is nice to make such a suggestion when one does not have to provide the money? We can all be good at standing back from a situation and saying: "Yes, there is money needed here, there and everywhere". But, as everybody knows, there are not unlimited resources available, in which case some priorities must be established. In relation to CIE, it will be generally conceded — and CIE would be first to concede it themselves — that this year they are being extremely well looked after in regard to the new buses, the Howth-Bray line, in regard to new signalling and other capital works being carried out. They have said this to me and I know they are quite happy about it. They are anxious to get on with the provision of new rolling stock. Certainly, I will not hold them up one week more than is necessary, and they know that quite well. As soon as the McKinsey report reaches me I will be making my recommendations to the Government, having examined all its aspects. We are dealing here with taxpayers' money. We must ensure that the public get value for such taxpayers' money as is spent and also that we get the best services.

Reference was made to buses in Dublin and Cork and the reason they lost so much money over the years. Deputy Deasy made a point about the big drop in passenger numbers over the years. Deputy Corish partly answered that question for me when he said there had been a huge increase in private car ownership. This is a reflection of the improved standard of living here. Cars are there and people want to use them, which is fair enough. But there are certain aspects that must be taken into account in the overall solution of the transport problem in Dublin. There has been a huge increase in private car ownership which has contributed in no small way to the decrease in passenger numbers with CIE. I agree with Deputy Deasy that one cannot expect people to use a service that is not punctual. One cannot hope that people will leave their cars at home and use such a service, one on which they cannot rely. To date this has been the situation obtaining in Dublin. It is because of the chaotic traffic conditions and is no reflection on CIE bus drivers.

: I agree completely with the Minister.

: It is no reflection on them at all. Indeed, I am sure that attempting to keep to some sort of time schedule in Dublin has been frustrating for them because of the chaotic traffic conditions prevailing there. Therefore, I saw it as my duty and responsibility to ensure that the Government took immediate action and took the decision to set up the Dublin Transportation Authority, because traffic in this city is slowly grinding to a halt. At the same time I set a deadline for the introduction of legislation and said I hoped to have the legislation enacted in approximately 18 months. That is the target towards which I am still working and I hope to be in a position to introduce that legislation in the House in the next session. That was one of the major decisions taken in regard to the solution of the problem in Dublin. In the meantime the task force which I set up at the same time are doing an excellent job. They are co-ordinating all the services. As I have said in the House many times already, they are representative of the various Departments and agencies who have an input to make. It works quite well. They have also an operations group endeavouring to sort out the traffic problems in Dublin.

I agree with Deputy Deasy that the introduction of new buses in Dublin should be similtaneous with the introduction of bus priority measures, which is the target I am trying to set. But there is a big marketing job to be done in this respect. They will not be introduced or operated overnight. For instance, there was an attempt made earlier in Fairview, which failed after a week. There has to be a marketing job done. There must be an appreciation that there will be some inconvenience to people. But we must sort out the problem. There is no point in leaving it there. The introduction of new buses in Dublin and of bus priority measures — as I outlined in my opening remarks — is a sensible, realistic approach. At the same time I would hope that Dublin Corporation would examine the possibility of providing off-street car parking. Too often driving around this city one sees lanes of traffic disturbed because one or two cars have been badly parked. Of course, car owners would contend that they too are entitled to some consideration, and they are. There cannot be a "blitz" of car banning and so on. The objective is set out: to take 15 per cent off the peak hour period. That is the objective of the Transport Consultative Commission and is also mine.

It must be frustrating for the management and workers of CIE to have to resort each year to the public purse. It must be a frustrating exercise for management, who I know have done a very good job over the years in reducing the number of staff. While Deputy Deasy points to an increase in staff numbers, it must be remembered that the financial aspect must also be taken into account. We have only 3,500,000 people in this country, that is all. One must ask one self where is the population spread. There is no great reason for travel here, there and everywhere. We must be realistic in this type of situation. We have only so much money to spend and so much to invest. Again, we must ask ourselves "Where is the main concentration of population?"

My approach will be a realistic and pragmatic one on the lines I have already outlined. As soon as the McKinsey report is furnished to me I will be making my recommendations to the Government and CIE will be provided with the money for rolling stock. New buses are coming on stream. The Howth-Bray railway line is going ahead. CIE must be given the opportunity to prove themselves working under proper conditions in Dublin. That is my aim: give them the opportunity, let them prove themselves and, if they cannot do the job, that is another matter. But we must first afford them the opportunity to do so and I believe they will respond to the challenge. Indeed, that was evident when they were given the right conditions during the Pope's visit and during the recent petrol tanker drivers' strike. My aim is to give them the right conditions, the appropriate rolling stock and see what they can do. That is my whole approach to it.

Deputy Corish asked what the Government and I were doing in relation to the Whiddy Report. I shall repeat for his benefit that the Government accepted its recommendations. Many of the recommendations cannot be implemented by this Government but all the necessary action is being taken by us at international level in an endeavour to have its recommendations accepted. What does lie within the power of this Parliament will be done. Hopefully before the end of this session I will be introducing the Safety of Life at Sea Bill when other aspects will be dealt with. For instance, draft regulations have been sent to Brussels for approval. The necessary powers will also be given to Bantry harbour authorities.

Deputy Corish raised a question in relation to Rosslare Harbour. The Deputy need have no fears in that respect. Rosslare Harbour has a volume increase in traffic and the money will be provided to finish the project there.

I think I have covered the main questions asked in the course of this debate. I will be introducing legislation later to increase the borrowing powers of CIE, when we shall have another opportunity of discussing CIE.

Vote put and agreed to.
Business suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.
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