Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 10 Feb 1981

Vol. 326 No. 7

Private Members' Business. - Alcohol Abuse: Motion.

Mr. Keating

I move:

That Dáil Éireann, aware of the growing and frightening problem of abuse of alcohol, especially among teenagers, demands the urgent introduction of appropriate legislative measures to ensure that young people are not enabled to purchase alcohol with the ease which at present obtains, and further demands that the Minister for Justice enters into discussions of an urgent nature with the professional bodies involved and takes all other steps to ensure that this enormous problem is curbed and that loopholes in existing legislation are ended.

The amendment in the name of the Minister reads:

1. To delete all words after "That" and add:

Dáil Éireann, aware of the widespread concern at the abuse of alcohol, particularly by young people, welcomes the initiation by the Minister for Justice of an urgent review of the Intoxicating Liquor Acts with a view to the introduction of amending legislation to help in counteracting this abuse and notes that consultations have taken place in this connection with a wide range of interested bodies.

Mr. Keating

This motion, which I move on behalf of Fine Gael, will, I am sure, have the support of most thinking people in the House. I consider it a singular honour to have the opportunity, for the first time in my memory, to debate in this House the question of the effects of the abuse of alcohol on our way of life and particularly on our young people. For long we have skirted this issue and have not dealt with it honestly here.

There is no doubt but that the abuse of drink constitutes a major threat to the wellbeing of this country. I appeal to all sections, to parents, pastors of all denominations, politicians and publicans, and to all whose responsibility it is to be concerned about the way in which our future is shaped, to join in launching a campaign to dissuade young people from believing in the fabrication of fantasy which is so much of today's promotion of alcohol. I have no doubt that the massive manipulative skills of the advertising media and of major industry is having a detrimental effect on the welfare of young people and is causing damage to Irish family life. Drink in itself is a good thing, as are most things used in moderation. However, when drink is associated with a massive campaign to promote drink not as a good thing in itself but as a panacea for all ills, as something that will facilitate young people in not just having an evening out but in enjoying a whole new way of life, the time has come for us to say that the other argument must be put regardless of the consequences and the effects it might have on the industries affected. No parent, politician or publican could not but be concerned. The vast majority of people are responsible and cherish the welfare of the country. As always, some people are not interested in the welfare of young people and they put profit first. It is our job to say that, in view of the increasing tide of misery, damage and destruction which the abuse of alcohol is waging in Irish homes and among young people particularly, we must counteract this trend. That must be done on a number of levels.

I consider the problem to be very serious. It is fortunate that we have many voluntary organisers and leaders among young people's organisations who have manfully endeavoured in difficult circumstances to create a fun ethic, a place of enjoyment, entertainment and leisure activity, outside of drinking areas, which too often are purported to be the places in which young people must be if they are to be with the in-crowd. We are obliged to say to people involved in voluntary youth organisations that they are doing a very good job. One of the planks of the campaign which I hope to outline to tackle this problem is support and enhanced prospects for all the organisations which are doing their job as well as possible. Without their input, their patriotism, and their caring for young people, this battle will be lost.

Available research shows that the drinking patterns of young people give us some cause for concern. During this discussion I am not concerned about pointing the finger at young people because most of these people who are being exploited are basically children — teenagers and, in some instances, not even teenagers. They deserve our protection and care and I hope that that is what they will get as a result of this debate. According to surveys carried out we know that something like 80 per cent of boys and 73 per cent of girls have taken alcoholic drink at some stage. We also know from these surveys that 43 per cent of boys and 39 per cent of girls consider themselves as occasional drinkers, that 13 per cent of boys and 10 per cent of girls consider themselves regular drinkers and that, while the majority of those who described themselves as regular drinkers were aged from 16 to over 18, there was a small but significant number from under 12 to 15 years.

Those figures are out of date because they relate to the early seventies and the most up-to-date statistics show an increasingly disturbing pattern. In a survey carried out some years ago by Miss Joyce Fitzpatrick, M.Sc., of the Department of Social Science, UCD, we are told that 72 per cent of males and 40 per cent of females had taken their first drink before the age of 18, that is three-quarters of the young men and almost half of the women had taken their first drink before they were 18. About 37 per cent of the boys and 15 per cent of the girls had taken their first drink before they were 16. These figures are now almost ten years out of date. What is the consumption pattern like at the moment? A recent study by Mr. Brendan M. Walsh, Drinking in Ireland, shows that unfortunately that trend is being consolidated. As Mr. Walsh says, it is notable that the rate of growth of alcohol consumption in Ireland has in recent years outpaced that recorded in neighbouring countries. We have now drawn level with the UK in terms of consumption per person aged over 14, whereas in the mid-sixties our consumption was about one-quarter below the British level.

We know from the statistics on the rates of admission to psychiatric hospitals in relation to alcohol related problems, from statistics available to people concerned with absenteeism from industry, from the impressions and the amateur statistics provided by people involved in voluntary organisations, from our own common sense and from the meetings we attend that more and more young people are drinking at an earlier age and, unfortunately, they are drinking irresponsibly. They are doing that because we are not helping them to educate themselves towards the positive and negative sides of drink. We are not showing them proper standards of example in our homes and in our public places. We have not outlawed the employment of children in lounge bars, public houses and places of entertainment. We are increasingly providing easy access to late night drinking by virtue of granting licences whenever they are applied for.

I know that the Minister of State, Deputy Doherty, has already expressed concern about this as about many other areas. I accept his integrity in this respect and there is no suggestion of party political treatment of this topic this evening. We are all concerned about it. I hope we will have ventilated this evening our concern and our expression of hope that something will be done and some positive commitment that something will happen in the near future.

We know in relation to tables of alcohol consumption per head of the population, age 15 and over, that the figures show a gradual increase which is doing the country significant damage. We know from comparative tables in other countries in relation to the consumption of alcohol per head of the population that Ireland does not have any cause for rejoicing.

The approach to tackling the problem must be comprehensive and concerted. The statistics are shocking and point to the need for the most urgent implementation of measures at a number of levels to combat this growing evil. Publicans and others involved in the licensing trade should be among the people involved in this. Those people are also parents and they are very concerned about excessive drinking of alcohol among young people. It is always the minority in any walk of life who cause damage and who do not care anything about our young people. We must exorcise those people from among us in order to ensure that the great damage inflicted on our homes is no longer a feature of our society.

Do we realise what it must be like for the young person who is obliged to look forward evening after evening with fear to the prospect of alcoholic parents coming back into the home, incoherent, fighting, possibly abusive to the children and neglectful of them? They deserve our pity and our support in relation to every measure we can take. I commit our party this evening to the introduction of measures which will bring about a change of public attitude in this respect and the urgent introduction of law reform proposals designed to ban the sale of drink to people under 18 years of age and to ensure that the easy access which young people have to drink will be denied them. We have seen great tragedy in relation to cider parties in which in my constituency young people lost their lives.

I believe the measure of the moral welfare of our civilisation often resides in our ability to protect the weakest and most vulnerable in our community, who are surely our young people. The Minister and everybody else in the House knows that we can walk 100, 300 or 1,000 yards from this House this evening and find young people serving drink who should be at home doing homework or in bed. We can find young people drunk in this city at the moment. We know from Dublin Corporation, and possibly other local authorities, and the teacher organisations, that the spectre of alcoholism and drunkenness among school children is now a problem.

Is it any wonder when they have no difficulty getting drink? When they turn on the television they are bombarded by an artificial world in which drink is the door to all good. We can only try to restrict those campaigns. It would be against what many of us stand for to be over censorious in that respect. The right approach to balance these campaigns is a positive campaign in schools to educate our young people, in the homes to have the highest possible standards of example and parental attention and discipline, and on our media by ensuring that there is a balance kept between exploitation in this regard and the need to look after young people. The Health Education Bureau are doing a good job as far as their resources will allow them. If we are to cope with the multinational giants in this field it is important to give the Health Education Bureau proper facilities and sufficient resources to carry out their great work.

We know it is not merely a question of reacting to statistics. We know that in many cases drink is a symptom of some greater problem. The development of non-drink social activity centres, leisure facilities and amenities in our cities where there are none is very important. We cannot neglect this. The few yards of carpet in the lounge bar for many people is the nearest they will ever get to some peace and tranquillity because their lives are so full of the grimness and sordidness of life in our cities. We need to be able to show young people that there are other places they can go to where they can entertain themselves. This is why the work of youth organisations must be the pivot of the campaign I speak about. We must provide them with adequate resources. Is it not a shame that those youth organisations and many organisations concerned with psychiatric help have to beg for funds to do their good work? I am not denying that there is a role for voluntary work and that we all like to contribute to those organisations, but we must think again in relation to the pattern of our resources if we are to tackle this real problem.

We know that in many cases loneliness and shyness and the comfort and friendliness of publichouses and lounge bars are factors which encourage young people to spend their time in those places. There is nothing else for them to do. We know there are many towns all over the country where the only activity or a break of any kind is a visit to the local lounge bar. I am not saying that all lounge bars are anathema to the good of the country, that drink is an evil. I do not believe it is, but I believe that we lag very far behind in explaining to young people how important it is to respond maturely and in an educated manner to the potential for good and the potential for evil which lie in alcohol.

In Belfast there are many areas, which one would expect to be drab and at a disadvantage, but are streets ahead of us. In places like Andersonstown and other areas in Belfast there are wonderful leisure centres with swimming pools, cafes, sports facilities, tuition facilities, evening class facilities and study centres. We are lagging far behind in this regard. A major investment of resources is essential if we are to get away from the present spectre of a few drinks being the main outlet for many young people with the exception of the voluntary youth clubs which are usually struggling to exist.

I believe the time is long overdue to launch a major campaign in this regard. It must be a comprehensive campaign and I suggest ten points as central to any reasonable campaign of reform in this respect. We must ask our schools to do more in this area. We must seek to introduce in schools courses of instruction and education which will expose the evils of abuse in those respects which will be anti-addictive in nature and which will show up the fallacy that happiness and fulfilment are to be found in drink or in drugs. We have not counteracted that propaganda. We have not given the resources to our schools. We have not made the necessary curricula changes. Those who are promoting the other side of the picture have vast resources at their disposal, and are using them very effectively.

We should consider very strongly banning the sale of alcoholic drink to people under the age of 18 years, in any circumstances, at any centre. We are told people are sent on a message and, in our day, many of us were sent on messages. Those who want to send young people on this message will have to be discommoded slightly to protect young people. It should be an offence to sell drink to people of tender years. We can discuss or argue about the age of 18 years, but there should be a ban on the sale of alcoholic drink to young people. In that context we should deplore those people who are abusing young people. Some people, sadly perhaps due to their own addiction, use young people for the purpose of procuring drink when they feel they would not be welcome in a particular establishment. I understand there is also a converse side to that point, and that there are some young people who pay adults to get drink for them. Obviously that is to be deplored.

As a third point, the employment of children in any public place where drink is available should be banned. I know it is supposed to be outlawed at a certain age, but it does not work. There is not adequate supervision, and I call for a tightening up of the legislation in this respect, and the enforcement of the existing legislation. It is very sad indeed to see many pale-faced 14 year olds serving drink in lounge bars. I do not care whether they are members of the owner's family or whether they are working to make a little money. It is wrong, and we all know it is wrong. Let us stop it. How can we expect a young person to grow up properly given that example?

Fourthly, off-licences, particularly those associated with supermarkets, should have a separate entrance. It should not be possible for a mother with young children to be able to procure drink in the same area where she buys normal household goods. Off-licences could be attached to supermarkets, but there should be a second entrance. I am supported in that view by the Licensed Vintners' Federation and by others who are concerned about present abuses.

Fifthly, I should like to see a national authority set up to conduct a counter-campaign, involving representatives of the concerned organisations, be they parents, Members of this House, the Churches, the Garda, the vintners and others with a legitimate interest. Young people too should be well represented on this body which would have the will and the resources to counteract the propaganda to seduce people into believing that drink is the be all and the end all.

As a sixth point I should like a massive advertising campaign to be undertaken to put the truth about alcohol into perspective. Like many other things, there are very good points about it. In moderation, drink is probably of great benefit but, in view of the effect it is having on our young people, the other side must be shown up. If necessary, this campaign could be funded in part by the companies who derive a living from the sale of drink. The economics of it would have to be considered carefully. I see nothing wrong in those, who even if they do not intend to so often contribute to this tragedy in Irish life, being obliged to subsidise a public educational campaign about the facts in this area.

The whole approach should be positive. It should show people that a balanced, mature, sensible approach to drink is the right way to go about it. It is important that we should be wary about being over-repressive. I am not in favour of a response which would seek to build up drink as a myth available to the few and as if it were something we wanted to hide. We should be quite honest about it. An argument is put forward in other countries that, if people are introduced to drink at an early age, they may be more amenable to a sensible approach to it. I am far from convinced by that argument, but I am willing to look at it.

The Health Education Bureau are doing their job. I want the Minister to answer a specific question. Will he give £ for £, or as near as dammit to £ for £, to ensure that the other side of the story is put forward? These advertising campaigns are extremely carefully contrived. I do not blame the advertisers for this. It is their skill and their job. The very rubrics of RTE regulations in this respect are of dubious value in some cases. I question whether they are fully implemented. If you look at the code — and these points are the minimum standards to be observed — you will see statements like: "Jingles or music scores with vocal accompaniment are unacceptable as is the use of sound effects of drinking"; "excessive product displays, bottles, cans, filled glasses or point of sale material must be avoided"; "The advertising of alcoholic drink should not be linked to sexual attraction or physical prowess either by word or allusion".

Those codes are being broken. I can name the advertisements if necessary in which they are being broken. Even the minimum standards for protecting people are not being implemented. If I am wrong about that, I hope I will be corrected because I feel I am taking a slight advantage of RTE in saying that without having someone on other side to argue back. If the Minister tells me that advertisements for certain well-known drinks do not link sexual attraction and physical prowess either by word or allusion to alcoholic drink, I suggest we must be looking at different stations.

There is no point in our pretending we can twist the advertising industry to meet our needs. The way to do it is to counteract it and give the other side of the coin and let the mature young people, in whom I have great confidence and faith, and to whom I believe great credit is due for the manner in which they are dealing with the problems we foist upon them, make up their own minds with a bit of help, guidance and counsel. Therefore, a strong campaign is necessary.

As a seventh point I suggest the positive development of amenities and recreational facilities where the fun and the leisure ethic is central, and where drink is not the central theme. It is sad that so many functions and so many meetings of branches of party organisations, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael or Labour, have to be held in or over lounge bars. We are all guilty in this respect. That is because we have no choice. For some extraordinary reason, apparently schools and public buildings are anathema to politicians, or vice versa. We are not allowed to have meetings there. They can be used for bingo and various important purposes while apparently a young group of Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael or Labour politicians are not entitled to the same facility. That is an aside.

We must develop these amenities. There is no substitute for them. The very good, sensible, responsible youth organisation structure which exists, and which is represented here this evening, needs our support, our care and the investment of resources to let them get on with the job. We do not want to squeeze out the role of voluntary organisations or to take over the job. We should take up the lead they have given and facilitate them by providing them with the resources necessary for them to do the job. It is a tragedy that youth organisations are obliged to appeal month after month for grants, large and small, to do work which, if it is not done, will deprive many young people of the potential to fulfil themselves in a normal walk of life and will cause enormous damage to the State and cost us millions. Let us, therefore, respond generously and involve youth organisations in our campaign in this respect.

There is a variety of law reform measures and they are matters about which we cannot pass responsibility to any other forum but here. The Minister and all parties have an opportunity of saying how soon they will introduce law reform measures in relation to a variety of important issues. Some of these issues have been pointed out by the Gardai, by caring organisations, by the Irish National Council on Alcoholism, by individual youth organisations, by politicians and by various sections of the media. I should like to spell out in more detail the need to change the law in certain areas.

The law in relation to the age at which young people have access to drink needs to be reviewed and rewritten. We need to ensure that young people do not have the facility of getting their hands on drink when they are in their early teens. If it fell to be my lot, that is the way the law would be. I know there are counter arguments and other points of view that may be put, but the greater good of the majority of young people demands that we get tough in this respect. A consolidation of the present liquor laws could be argued for. Provision for a much tighter control on the sale of drink to young people is essential. That would include the restriction of access to young people, particularly in respect of off-licences attached to supermarkets. There would be a separate entrance and young people would not be allowed to enter. There is need to update the law and penalties for offences related to control of access by young people to drink.

We should discourage people from drinking for the sake of it and encourage them to drink only as an ancillary to other social activities. There are many responsible members in the licenced vintners and publican trade at present who are endeavouring to create a certain amount of leisure activity apart from the pure drinking hole that many places are. We might question the motivation, but it is a healthy development and shows that drink in itself is not the reason for existence which on occasion it is purported to be.

The question of opening hours needs to be looked at. There are two views on this. One says we should have reduced opening hours while the other says that if we have them open all the time there will be less of a rush to drink. I am not sure about that point, but some consistency regarding opening hours would be good. The abuse going on in relation to late night drinking allegedly with a meal — we all know the contents of some such meals — needs to be curbed. The Minister knows of the growth in the number of such licences over the last few years. We do not want to take away the right of voluntary organisations to raise funds or have social functions without careful consideration, but the doubling of the rate of licences granted is something that should be looked at. It is very hard to explain unless our pattern of evening entertainment has changed radically, which I do not believe.

The Garda are seeking the abolition of the need for a search order or other authority to enter and inspect registered clubs. That should be considered. The registration of such clubs and the way they operate is a matter which falls slightly outside the ambit of this, but it is relevant to the degree of access those whose job it is to enforce the law are entitled to have. The creation of an offence for persons found consuming intoxicating liquor in a registered club during prohibited hours is another matter which should be considered. We could make provision requiring persons found in a registered club during prohibited hours to give their names and addresses, which they do not have to do at present. We could create the presumption that drink having the appearance of intoxicating liquor found in the possession of a person in a licenced premises or a registered club is intoxicating liquor. We could give power to the Gardai to confiscate any such intoxicating liquor found in the possession, in a public place, of a person believed to be under 18 years of age. That cannot be done at present unless the garda has a warrant. If a garda comes on a group of teenagers having a cider party it is not unreasonable that he should be entitled to confiscate that drink. It is totally impracticable, and therefore does not happen, that we should suggest that they would have to go off to obtain bureaucratic approval, though I do not wish to downgrade the importance of getting proper authorisation for certain measures. The reality is that, if we insist on such a measure here, there will be no cessation of such parties by young people.

We could provide for proof of age of persons found in possession of intoxicating liquor in public places. The suggestion was made that identification cards for young people should be introduced. I am not overenthused by that idea. I am not sure how practicable it is, and it is slightly odious that people, particularly girls, who can look very young and be well over the age of 18, will have to produce evidence. A compromise might be that if you get someone about whom you have a doubt, you ask them to produce evidence of their age.

We could tighten up on the law of liability of master for actions of servant, especially relating to offences arising from supply of intoxicating liquor to young persons. What that would mean is that in a situation where one comes across children of tender years taking alcoholic drink the parent is legally responsible. Ultimately much of the responsibility we are talking about rests with the parents. It is not right that the State should take that away. At the same time we must point out that that responsibility is not met on occasion. We should consider the degree to which we can insist on legal responsibility in situations where a parent is found to be aiding and abetting a person in possession of drink they are not entitled to.

This campaign must involve the whole community. It must involve parents, priests, politicians and so on. This is the kind of goal that can mobilise people. It does not call for a major transfer of resources. If we organise a campaign for young people, they would play their part and respond and say: "We want to be able to use drink sensibly". I am not calling for the abolition of drink but for it to be utilised sensibly and seen to be a good thing in itself. At present it is woefully abused. In relation to absenteeism in Irish work places, figures indicate that companies have found alcoholism accounting for 10 to 25 per cent of absenteeism. We all know the Monday morning syndrome. In pure mercenary terms, let us think of the damage it is doing. Think of the many homes tonight in which there is a frightened bewildered child having to witness the spectre of two parents, in many cases helpless victims because it is a drug we are talking about, who are unable to look after them, perhaps beating each other up, swearing and unable to meet their responsibility. I thank God I did not have a home like that but I care deeply about ensuring that such homes are, as soon as they can be, a thing of the past. Young people need our protection and care in that respect.

We must do more about the treatment of people who are too deeply involved with alcoholic drink. The question of providing detoxication centres in places of penal servitude is a matter for the Minister for Justice. We find voluntary organisations very much to the fore in providing proper remedial help and care. We need to do more in that respect. We are investing in our young people and in our future by these measures. We are not asking for charity to be given to these people. We are asking this evening — and, I hope, committing ourselves to a concerted ten-point plan of action — that alcohol, which is presently eroding the very basis of our society, will be the subject of a completely new campaign by the Government with the full co-operation of all parties and all sides of the community to ensure that we have a proper balanced approach to the matter and that young people get the protection, counsel and help they deserve.

There is much more one could say, but my time is up. I feel deeply about it and I appeal to the Minister listening to give me a guarantee that before this session is out we will see at least a beginning to this campaign about which I speak.

Minister of State at the Department of Justice (Mr. Doherty)

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "That" and add:

"Dáil Éireann, aware of the widespread concern at the abuse of alcohol, particularly by young people, welcomes the initiation by the Minister for Justice of an urgent review of the Intoxicating Liquor Acts with a view to the introduction of amending legislation to help in counteracting this abuse and notes that consultations have taken place in this connection with a wide range of interested bodies."

I should like to compliment Deputy Keating on his very helpful and non-party approach this evening. I look forward to a constructive and useful debate over the remainder of the period.

At the outset, I should like to explain why I am moving this amendment. I am doing so notwithstanding that I agree with the Deputies who have proposed the motion that the extent of the current abuse of alcohol, especially among our young people, is giving rise to concern and that we have a duty to do what we can to help to minimise the damage being caused and reduce the risk of addiction at an early age.

First of all, there is, I think, an implication in the motion that alcohol abuse can be halted or even eliminated by legislative action alone. This would give a wholly false impression of what the law can do. Many other countries with similar problems have found out just how ineffective, or even counter-productive, legislative restrictions can be. The reality is that changes in the licensing laws cannot by themselves have more than a limited effect. Indeed, experience of this type of legislation has shown that whenever a change was made with the object of reducing availability of drink through particular outlets or outside particular hours, very often no significant decline in general consumption resulted. People tended to get the same amount of drink from other sources or at other times. These facts should not of course make us any less anxious to make any changes that are likely to contribute to improving the present situation.

I would say that what is really required is a change in our attitudes to drink. Family and community guidance and example may be the most important factors in determining the drinking pattern of the next generation of young Irishmen and women.

Before we can make any impact at all through legislation there must be an informed public opinion about the dangers of drink abuse. I would even go as far as to suggest that instruction about alcohol, particularly its effects on the nervous system and the hazards of its misuse, should be regarded as part and parcel of the adolescent's formal education. There is a pressing need to promote and develop a positive approach to leisure activities among the young, and perhaps the not so very young, to take the emphasis away from drink and the places and functions where it is dispensed as being a necessary or desirable focal point for social activities. This is a point that was frequently stressed by the representatives from community associations and groups whom I have met in recent months. It is also a view expressed by organisations such as the Irish National Council on Alcoholism, the Economic and Social Research Institute and the Medico-Social Research Board.

There may also be an implication in the motion that an examination of the law has not commenced or that there have not been consultations with the various professional bodies and groups concerned. In fact, a review of the licensing laws has been under way for some time. Detailed submissions were invited and received from interested parties. I have had discussions with many organisations representing the groups I have mentioned as well as a wide range of professional interests. The examination has reached an advanced stage and I expect that proposals for amending legislation will be submitted to the Government shortly.

In the meantime, I think it would be inappropriate for me to indicate the nature of the proposals that are likely to be put forward. Nevertheless. I would like to make some general observations based on the consultations I have had as part of the review.

First of all, I think there is now ample evidence from ordinary observation that the level of alcohol abuse has increased substantially over the last decade. The statistics available tend to be confusing, if not contradictory. But there is no gainsaying one set of figures published by the Revenue Commissioners in their Annual Reports. These relate to the quantities of spirits, beer and wine released for home consumption. There has been a doubling of those quantities between 1969 and 1979. If I take the figures for 1962 — the last occasion that this House reviewed the licensing laws — the increase is all the more remarkable. Consumption of spirits has almost trebled since then. Beer consumption has almost doubled. Four times more wine in now being drunk.

Moreover, there has been a striking increase in the number of special exemption orders granted by the Courts, particularly in the category which provides for hotel dances or discos on what are called special occasions. These orders have jumped from 6,000 in 1967 to 42,000 in 1979. I think this increase is particularly significant from the point of view of drinking by young people because these functions are designed to attract them. The increase in exemption orders reflects in turn a growing demand for this type of function.

There is no doubt also about the increase in alcoholism and related illnesses. Admissions to psychiatric hospitals from these causes have risen from 1,600 in 1965 to 7,300 in 1978. This is a disturbing increase, even when allowance is made for such factors as greater awareness of alcoholism as a disease and greater willingness to accept treatment. Alcoholism is now the most common cause of admission.

I must also refer to road accidents. A recent Foras Forbartha Report reveals that one in three fatal or injury accidents occurred between 9 p.m. and 3 a.m., the hours most associated with alcohol-influenced accidents. Statistics of casualties for 1977, 1978 and 1979 clearly show that Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays carry the highest risk between the hours of 10 p.m. and 1 a.m. Eight in every ten pedestrians killed and six in ten of those injured in night time accidents had been drinking heavily. The persons killed or injured were mostly those in the 20 to 24 and 25 to 29 age group.

The role of drink in the break-up of marriages and in absenteeism needs no underlining from me.

It must be borne in mind of course that the proportion of young people in the population has also increased and that there has been a very great change in their lifestyle. Undoubtedly young people can more readily afford to buy enough alcohol for an evening's drinking than they could say five, ten or 25 years ago. They are much less closely supervised by their parents, have a greater individual freedom, own or have access to some form of motorised transport and have a shorter working week. All these factors may exercise as much, if not more, influence on their drinking patterns today. In a wider context, the use of alcohol is so much bound up with our modern way of living that its dangerous properties as a potent and addictive drug are often disguised by comforting rationalisations.

I have been careful to refer to under-age persons rather than teenagers because under our present law it is, of course, permissible for an 18 or 19 year old to buy and consume drink in a licensed premises. It has never been seriously suggested that there should be a change in the law in this respect, such as, for instance, a raising of the minumum age limit to, say, 21. Also it is permissible here for a youngster beween 15 and 18 to be in a licensed premises. In Northern Ireland, incidentally, no one under 18 years of age is allowed.

I have been urged by many responsible bodies to tighten the existing provisions about the presence of minors in licensed premises and the sale of drink for consumption by them either on or off these premises. I am bound to say that I think they have made out a good case. However, a major obstacle in enforcing any such change is the genuine difficulty people nowadays have in knowing whether a young boy or girl is over or under 18. That difficulty is aggravatdd by the fact that young people are physically maturing at an earlier age. A State-run scheme of identity cards has often been suggested as a possible solution. I doubt if such a scheme would be feasible. It would be open to several objections. For instance, it would raise wide questions of principle for a common law country such as ours, and I am cerain that it would be costly to establish and maintain. I consider that the responsibilities of all the parties involved—the parents, the licensees and the young persons themselves—should be clearly and unequivocally stated in the law.

So far as the presence of young people in licensed premises is concerned, there are of course a number of aspects which must be borne in mind. Under the present statutory provision, which is in the Children Act, 1908, the offence is committed by the licensee where he allows a child to be in the bar of a licensed premises. A child in this context means a person under the age of 15 years. The question immediately arises as to whether the age limits should be higher than 15 and also whether some responsibility should be placed by statute on the parent or guardian, as well as on the licensee. Then, again, it must be considered whether a blanket prohibition on the presence of youngsters under 15 years of age in bars is reasonable. There are certain exceptions under the present law relating to the case where the child is resident on the premises, or merely passing through. In common sense terms, the degree to which the presence of a youngster of under 15 years in a bar is objectionable depends on the location of the bar, the nature of its clientele and, perhaps, most of all, on whether or not the young person is accompanied by his parent or guardian. Thus while it may be wholly objectionable for a young child to be present in a crowded bar late in the evening, it may be reasonable for a child to be so present during the day if accompanied by his parent while the parents are for example in a remote country area waiting to catch a bus or get a lift.

I mention these points because it illustrates the fact that in considering the imposition of restrictions under the licensing code we must bear in mind the requirements of the average reasonable citizen and what has always been regarded as normal and reasonable practice throughout the country.

The presence of young people in the bars of licensed premises is, as I have said, dealt with in the Children Act of 1908. The question of the purchase and consumption of intoxicating liquor by young persons is, however, dealt with in a separate statute—an Intoxicating Liquor Act of 1924. The latter provision makes it an offence for a licensee to "knowingly" sell intoxicating liquor for consumption by a person under 18 either on the premises or off the premises. Sending a person of under 18 as a messenger for liquor is prohibited, except where delivery is to a residence or working place, or where the licensee uses a relative or employee as a messenger. Liquor may be sold to a person aged 15 to 18 if it is in a corked and sealed vessel of not less than one pint capacity.

Under these provisions, the offence is committed by the licensee; no offence is committed by a person under 18 years of age who purchases or consumes intoxicating liquor. In considering these provisions, questions will immediately arise as to whether the present age limit is the correct one and as to the degree of responsibility to attach to the licensee in connection with the offence. We may reasonably ask whether a degree of responsibility should not also attach to the young person who purchases and consumes the liquor, as well as to any adult who may purchase intoxicating liquor for use by an under-age person.

In examining all these aspects I must bear in mind the question as to what reasonable provision can be made having regard to the earlier maturity of young people today. Any new provision now put forward on this, or any other, aspect of the licensing code must be such as to be readily enforceable by the Garda.

I am also looking at sales of drink from off-licences, particularly in relation to sales to under fifteens. The present law, which goes back to 1924, provides that persons between fifteen and eighteen can buy drink for consumption in licensed premises irrespective of whether they are publichouses or off-licences. There is evidence from the gardaí and other sources that this has led to a practice of drinking by groups of young persons, some little more than children, on waste ground or in derelict houses, particularly in Dublin. There is no provision in the law at present which would empower the Gardaí to seize and remove drink from these youngsters. A difficulty about drinking by the under-fifteens is that the drink can be got for them by an older person. sometimes the persons who are dealing with customers in off-licences are young persons themselves and cannot be expected to behave in doubtful cases with the same sense of responsibility as adults. It has been suggested to me, and I am considering, whether a minimum age requirement should be imposed for persons serving in off-licences.

I am looking at the sales of drink from off-licences particularly in relation to persons under fifteen. On a number of occasions I have spent a considerable amount of time on this point with various groups and bodies whom I have met and there are, generally speaking, very mixed views about this. Suggestions have also been made to me that young persons in proper control and guardianship might benefit by being in licensed premises in a proper environmet. It is a view that has been expressed, too. I just mention it for the purpose of the debate here this evening.

I am conscious, too, that under-age drinking extends beyond sales in public houses and off-licences during the normal opening hours and that there may be a case for further control on the sale of drink during extended hours of opening. For one thing, I do not believe that the Oireachtas could have envisaged in 1960 and 1962 that special exemption orders would have been granted on the present scale. The exemption orders I am particularly concerned about are those relating to exemption for late night functions in hotels and restaurants and, to a lesser extent, for special events such as a fleadh ceóil. As regards the latter, I have had various suggestions for amendment, from limiting the bar extension to one day at a time to limiting the extension to a specified maximum period after normal closing time.

The other type of exemption order is that which clearly has caused the greatest concern. It confers an extension on hotels or restaurants for special occasions which may include private functions, functions run by particular organisations or groups or simply a dance. In each case the law requires that a substantial meal be served. I have had persistent reports of drink abuse at these late-night dances, and have been asked to limit the number of special exemption orders or to reduce the maximum period of extension to, say, 12.30 a.m.—or, indeed, a combination of both. There have been numerous complaints about what passes as a substantial meal and I am told that these complaints unfortunately are often only too well-founded. Another complaint relates to the grant of extensions for the early hours of Monday morning. In fact this is an aspect of the present review which presents a great deal of difficulty. I may add that a Supreme Court decision is awaited on a case stated which will have a bearing on the approach to be adopted in dealing with this question.

The present permitted hours are not, I think, a major factor in drink abuse by young people. In any event, they could not be significantly reduced without unnecessarily restricting the facilities available to moderate drinkers. Nevertheless the possibility of changes in the hours cannot be entirely excluded from the scope of the present review, at least in so far as these hours could be affected by changes in some of the other provisions. In this connection there have been proposals for increasing the present wintertime week day closing hour to 11.30 p.m., reducing summer time closing to 11 p.m., making various changes in the hours of Sunday opening, including an extension of the closing to 10.30 or even 11 p.m. I have been asked to increase the drinking-up time of ten minutes to half-an-hour. As regards the present "holy hour" in Dublin and Cork, there are suggestions to abolish it completely; to keep it but to change the time; and even to extend it to the whole country. Clearly it will not be possible to satisfy everyone, so far as the hours of opening are concerned.

It may be also that the penalties for certain liquor offences should be altered to take account of present-day conditions. The monetary penalties were fixed when the real value of money was much greater than it is now.

Because of the importance of effective enforcement and of their practical experience of the operation of the licensing laws, I have maintained a close liaison with the Garda Commissioner and his officers throughout the review.

I think the House will agree that there has been a positive Government reaction to the calls for changes in the drink licensing laws to help, in so far as legislation can help, in curbing the unwelcome trends that have emerged in recent years. As I have said, I expect to have definitive proposals for amending legislation to place before the Government shortly and I shall of course take into account the views expressed by Deputy Keating and other Deputies in the course of this debate. I hope that the legislation, when it is circulated, will commend itself to the House.

I would like to refer to a number of points raised by Deputy Keating. He made suggestions for tackling the problem of temptations for young people because of mass advertising campaigns. He suggested campaigning to counter the seductive pro-drink propaganda. These are areas for the Minister for Health and I am satisfied that the Minister is actively interested in all of the aspects raised by Deputy Keating and will take every possible action to improve the position in this respect.

Mr. Keating

Does the Minister expect we will have legislation in this House this session?

Mr. Doherty

My proposals will be with the Government very shortly.

Mr. Briscoe

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this debate. I have the highest praise for Deputy Keating, not only for raising this issue but for having notified my friends, and his, from the Catholic Youth Council to come here this evening. Many young people have a particular interest in this subject because it is a source of great concern. I am satisfied that listening to what is being done about this problem will make this a most useful evening for them.

I am more than gratified to hear the Minister announce that his proposals are well on their way to completion and that they will be with the Government shortly. The Minister is prevented from announcing the kind of proposals he has in mind because the Government must vet and agree to them before they come before the House. I am satisfied that when they come before the House not only will Deputy Keating and I be pleased but so will everybody concerned about the abuse of alcohol, particularly young people.

I led deputations to the Minister for Justice of the Coalition Government expressing our concern about the easy access young people have to alcohol. We know the problems there are getting people to give evidence that they saw somebody serving an under-age person in an off-licence premises. Unfortunately, among the culprits for selling drink to under-age people are our supermarkets where in a less personalised service it is very difficult to vet customers. If the Minister is not already considering that this situation—allowing supermarkets to sell alcohol to under-age people — should not continue, the time has come to tell the supermarkets that selling beer, cider and so on must be controlled. I suggest that this matter be looked into.

The tragic part of our way of life is that any organisation, whether it be a youth club or a community organisation, must serve drink to get the adults to attend. Very often young people while trying to serve the community have to make drink available to raise funds. It is a vicious circle. Nothing makes me madder than to go into a pub and see young children drinking minerals while the parents drink pints. Nothing prepares a child more for a life of heavy boozing than growing up in this environment. The Minister should make it clear that this kind of behaviour is undesirable and should be banned.

Deputy Keating said that 14 year olds and younger serve in bars. The law states that no boy under 16 and no girl under 18 can serve in a bar, but this happens. Where it happens the community have a responsibility to bring it to the attention of the local gardaí, the Department of Labour, the Department of Justice, or the local Deputy. If such a matter is brought to my notice I will certainly bring it to the attention of the proper authorities. I am not aware of children of 14 or under serving in any bars I frequent. These are very emotive statements but if these things are happening they are against the law and these people can and should be punished.

The community's unwillingness to come forward and give evidence to the Garda leaves a great deal to be desired. We all know of certain off-licences which sell drink to teenagers but nobody will come forward and give evidence. We have a tradition that we do not like to inform. This is part of the reason why we have this canker, this awful running sore in our society. We know it is against the law to drink in a bar or pub after hours but we all do it. In Ireland that is a socially acceptable crime. If a person's name appears in a paper and he or she is fined for drinking in a pub after hours, nobody will take it very seriously. We have this attitude of being sympathetic to the drinker while at the same time deploring excesses.

I have always said there is nothing wrong with drinking in moderation. I enjoy a drink as much as the next person but I do not enjoy drunkenness. Drunkenness reduces the human being and takes away his dignity. There is nothing wrong with somebody being merry or in good form, but when people stagger along the streets and get sick I consider something should be done about the situation.

Deputy Keating mentioned drink advertisements. I deplore the way advertising is done, not just on television but through big advertisements or hoardings. There is pressure to drink; you are not one of the crowd unless you drink; you are not acceptable unless you drink.

Statistics published recently showed that the people of Ireland drink less than other EEC countries. I knew this was not a real figure because in this country more than any other as a percentage of the people, there are more total abstainers. A lot of people do not drink. I am talking about an average per head of the population, but I have yet to see such a figure. I should like to know the percentage of the population who do not drink. Those who do not drink help by lowering the statistics to reduce the guilt of those who do. Last week I mentioned that figures cannot lie but that liars can figure. One can do anything with figures one wishes but the statistics about drinking habits here are not accurate.

The onus in relation to serving under-age persons rests on publicans. It is the responsibility of a publican to ascertain whether the person being served is under age or not. There are no party differences in regard to this matter. We have a responsibility to our young people to set the example for them. I hope the Minister in his proposals will do something to prevent parents leaving their children in a car outside a licenced premises while they drink inside. It is sickening to see unfortunate children left in a car while their parents drink in a pub. Somebody should be held responsible for such acts. A lot of people do this. When driving with my wife we have often noticed cars outside pubs with children in them. To us that is unthinkable but yet it is a common occurence with many people. It is possible that the reason for this is because the parents were treated in that fashion when they were young, but their children when they grow up will accept that as part of life and continue such bad behaviour. We must adopt a responsible attitude to such children.

I have no doubt that all concerned people, young and old, want action in relation to teenage drinking. The Minister should not be hesitant in over-reacting because he can always pull back. Something should be done to remove this blight from our nation. A short time ago I was horrified to see youngsters between 15 and 16 years of age swigging out of a bottle of cider as they walked down a city street. The major cause of vandalism in the city, and throughout the country is the consumption of alcohol by young children. Physically and mentally such young people do themselves a lot of harm if they start drinking when 14 or 15 years of age. It is said that an alcoholic does not want to know a person who does not drink with him because he considers such a person an embarassment to him. The same applies to most young people who drink; one does not belong to the gang unless one takes alcohol. It is easy to be accused of going overboard on this subject and for that reason I was delighted to hear the contribution of Deputy Keating. Many of his liberal statements suggest that we should tolerate and allow certain things in the interest of the freedom of the individual; but I was glad that as far as drink is concerned he recognised, liked most of us, the destruction and the breaking up of homes an abuse of it can cause.

Almost all the young people in our institutions can blame their condition on drink. Community organisations should have another look at the way they plan their activities. The Minister has told us that there was a striking increase in the number of special exemption orders granted by the courts particularly in the category which provides for hotel dances or discos on what are called special occasions. He pointed out that the number of such orders jumped from 6,000 in 1967 to 42,000 in 1979, a phenomenal increase.

Another area of deep concern is the increase in alcoholism among young women. That has led to an increase in the number of admissions of young women to psychiatric hospitals from 1,600 in 1965 to 7,300 in 1978. As a teenager I was aware that young girls did not frequent pubs but it is now an accepted part of our social life that young girls and young women do so. I am not against women drinking, because they are as entitled as any man to a drink, but I am anxious to stress the point that there has been a huge rise in the number of admissions because it is now socially acceptable for young women to drink in pubs. I am deeply concerned about the number of young girls served drink in pubs and other places. It is tragic that so many young girls must get treatment for alcoholism. The Minister should consult with the Minister for Health with a view to requesting the Health Education Bureau to counter the advertising campaign carried on by the brewers on television. Many people felt that when cigarette advertising was banned on television it would lead to a huge drop in income for those stations but that did not happen. The Minister should urge the Minister for Justice to set about dismantling the advertising of drink on television. What other channels do is not our responsibility and it is something over which we do not have any control, but that does not mean that two wrongs make a right or that we have the right, therefore, to advertise. There is no use in allowing this money to be spent on advertising because such advertising is coming in on UTV, Welsh Television or any other stations being fed into us. In 15 or 20 years God knows what will be coming over the airwaves into our homes with the new types of receivers being developed daily as technology is improved and new discoveries made throughout the world.

I would like to suggest that maybe the Health Education Bureau would take a specified period, say two, or three or four months, and have a special programme on drink. Their advertising on smoking has been highly successful and they have done a wonderful job there. I wish we could see a programme on drink similar to the programme which I saw recently by the Horizon team of the BBC. They did a marvellous film on cigarette smoking and its dangers and what has happened to people as a result. Viewers should be introduced to some of the people who drink to excess and see some of the results of drinking, the brain damage that it has brought about, the damage it has caused to unborn children. Youngsters have not had a fair chance in life because the parents were drinking when the mother was expecting the child and should not have been drinking, and that child has to bear the results of that for the rest of its life. Not only does it leave the mother with a guilt complex, but the child's life is destroyed. These effects are due mainly to excesses, not because the people concerned drank a little. We are talking about alcohol poisoning, about people who are being poisoned by alcohol. If I wake up in the morning and have a hangover, technically I am suffering from alcohol poisoning, and people are not made sufficiently aware of the dangers. The Health Education Bureau have a huge task before them and I urge the Minister on the basis of the statistics which he has given to the House here tonight to take some action on this.

The Minister referred to the change in lifestyle of young people from that of the young people of about 25 years ago and of the money which they earn that they would not have dreamt to have earned then.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has five minutes if he wishes to avail of them.

Mr. Briscoe

I want to allow a few minutes for whoever is going in next to get his foot implanted into it. Parents have less control over their children than they had 20 years ago, there is no doubt about that. The consumer society has made it very much more difficult for parents to keep control over their children and it falls more than ever before to the youth organisations to step into the parents' role. Many people connected with youth organisations are acting as parents to the children because the real parents are not too concerned about where their children are and what they are up to. The youth organisations in fact are fulfilling that function many times over. I am glad that we have poured so much money into the youth organisations in the last two years through the office of the Minister of State at the Department of Education, Deputy Tunney. The money given to the youth organisations for full-time youth work and so on should be bearing fruit in creating a situation where it is possible for those people on the ground to do something, but they cannot win the battle if we are not supporting them and backing them up with legislation to control the kind of abuse that we have been talking about here this evening. I hope that the Minister will continue to take representations from any organisations and individuals who wish to put forward their ideas. That is very important at this stage. I hope also that we will have the pleasure of seeing the kind of legislation that we are talking about coming in here fairly quickly.

In conclusion, I think it was well worth while that we have had this debate and I look forward to hearing further development from the other side.

Mr. McMahon

Like the previous speaker, I am glad that we have this debate in the House but I am sorry that it has to be from 7.00 p.m. until 8.30 p.m. when, with respect to our colleagues in the media, not a great deal of attention is paid to what is said during this hour and a half in the House. We are dealing here with a very important matter which I am quite sure most of us are concerned with. I would say that more and more of us are learning more and more of what is happening in this area. Many of the schools, certainly in my area and I am sure in others as well, have in recent times been so concerned about the problem that they have organised meetings of parents and have invited some guest speakers to meetings in the evenings to discuss this very problem. It is quite alarming and I would welcome some swift legislation to deal with it. I know that there are parents in every area who are very concerned and are prepared to spend quite an amount of time and do what they can not only to highlight the problem but if at all possible to put forward suggestions as to how it can be dealt with. However, no matter what is done outside this House, it will not be successful until the nettle is grasped here and we have some supporting legislation for those who are showing such concern about the problem.

It does not take a great deal of alertness to witness the number of young people drinking, some of them under age. To blame those who serve it or the publicans really is only passing the buck because as the law stands it is not easy for a barman who may be employed by a firm, an individual, or the owner, the publican himself, to determine whether a young person is under age. However, my concern is not so much that there is under-age drinking and that a person is 16, 17, 18 or 20 but that there is so much drinking, even if a person is within the law in ordering drink and taking it on the premises or taking it home and drinking it elsewhere. It is very alarming and we should be as concerned as those parents who are calling these meetings.

Debate adjourned.