asked the Minister for Social Welfare if her attention has been drawn to the claim (details supplied) of a wife whose late husband remarried in the UK and subsequently died and who is seeking to be his legally designated widow in Ireland for social welfare purposes; and the action she proposes to take in the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Widow's Pension.
7.
The person concerned, who had been deserted by her husband in England, claimed deserted wife`s allowance in July 1971. In support of her application she submitted a copy of the divorce decree nisi obtained by her husband on 9 July 1971. She was awarded the allowance with effect from 29 July 1971.
She subsequently claimed widow`s pension on the death of her late husband on 15 August 1972, but her application was refused after legal advice had been obtained in the matter. She appealed against the decision and the appeals officer upheld the decision refusing a widow's pension. She has however continued to be paid a deserted wife`s allowance at the maximum rate from the original date. The rate of the allowance payable is the same as the rate of widow's pension which would otherwise have been payable in her case.
As explained previously to the Deputy in reply to a question on 18 May 1976, the legal advice available to my Department is to the effect that a divorce properly obtained by a person domiciled in another jurisdiction must be recognised as valid in this country.
The problem of divorce is a complex one which affects matters other than widow's pension — for example, the validity of subsequent marriages, devolution of property, etc. The Minister for Social Welfare has always been guided by the general law of the country as interpreted by the Attorney General and the courts. If there should be a change in that law or in its interpretation, I will give effect to such change in relation to widows` pensions, but action to bring about a change would not be a matter for my Department.
While I agree that the lady is receiving the same amount of money as she would if officially designated a widow, would the Minister agree that an injustice is being worked against this unfortunate woman? She should be entitled to the designation of widow, in the light of our attitude. Irish law recognises foreign divorces but does not allow divorces here. Would the Minister agree that there is a certain element of hypocrisy in the application of these laws in relation to divorce?
The current situation is one which needs a lot of clarification but which is not strictly the responsibility of this Department. The person involved is not deprived in any way financially because of the situation. The designation of her as a widow or deserted wife relates to the law of the land. That law recognises foreign divorces and has recognised them for some time. Any outraged comments at this stage would be equally hypocritical of the Deputy, as would any criticism generally of the situation here. There is a commitment, as the Deputy knows, although it is not strictly relevant, by the Department of Social Welfare to attempt to set up an all-party committee. I would be very glad at that stage of the Deputy's contribution to development and discussion on divorce.
I am not expressing outrage at all. I am merely trying to expose an anomaly which the Minister's Department are administering. The Minister should take note of my demeanour in relation to the manner in which I have asked my supplementary question. Arising out of what the Minister has said, she has come into the House with a civil service answer to a question, an answer which she does not believe in. If the Minister is mentioning outrage, if she was outside this——
A question, please.
——House and was not a Minister, she would agree with what I am saying. Can the Minister say how many people are affected by this anomalous application of the law?
What did the Deputy do for four years? Nothing.
A woman who would obviously like to be designated a widow rather than a deserted wife would get my sympathy. However, in terms of the operation of a system, clearly in this country a totally anomalous situation has developed in relation to the marriage situation where there are many difficulties and problems. I may make any comment I like in this area. But in reality, until there is a legal change, these anomalies will exist and persons such as this lady will suffer from certain indignities to which they object. It is a fact that marriages and divorces obtained legally in foreign countries, the jurisdiction of which is recognised, are recognised here. As mentioned in my reply, the implications of doing otherwise are extensive. They relate to areas of subsequent marriages and if we were to designate this lady——
Widow.
——what we might want to designate her, with every sympathy, there may be other persons suffering as a result of that. Certainly, one cannot force the situation. It is something which needs an extensive and wide range of study.
The Deputy will agree that this is more pertinent to a general debate on this matter, but certainly not on this question.
I agree. May I ask one supplementary question?
Ceist 8, Deputy Deasy.
May I ask one final supplementary question?
I am sorry. The Deputy will agree that I have given him a lot of latitude.
Chair, Chair.
One final supplementary question, please.
I will save that subject for another occasion. May I ask one final supplementary question? The Minister has agreed with me that there is an anomaly. It has existed for some time. I accept that. Can the Minister say how many people are affected by this? I know that Deputy Fennell is assisting the Minister and that Deputy Fennell agrees with me but can the Minister say how many people are affected by this unfair and unjust law?
The absentee is leaving.
There will be no vote now.
Deputy Deasy.
Can the Minister tell me——
I do not have these figures. As I understand the situation, there was an opportunity for gaining such figures but the information was not allowed to be sought on the census conducted when the Minister's party were in government. We look forward to a developing debate in the area.